Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?


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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Marlow » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:31 am

aaronk wrote:But putting aside those precocious teen girls who are in the record books, Mary stands as NUMBER ONE AMERICAN high schooler in the 1500 now. Her 4:39.28 mile and 2:03.34 also rate VERY highly....against other American high school girls!!
While Mary might improve GREATLY . . .
But if she progresses as I believe she will . . .

I think his point was that in the Big Picture, she is 'just' a 16-year-old girl with great performances NOW and that's what we should be enjoying. She is not a World-Beater, even for her age, so Great Expectations are premature. If she and Salazar work out, and if she follows a similar trajectory as Rupp, THEN we're in for a great show in the future. We all wish her the best.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby decafan » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:47 am

Marlow wrote:
I think his point was that in the Big Picture, she is 'just' a 16-year-old girl with great performances NOW and that's what we should be enjoying. She is not a World-Beater, even for her age, so Great Expectations are premature. If she and Salazar work out, and if she follows a similar trajectory as Rupp, THEN we're in for a great show in the future. We all wish her the best.


Well said, Marlow.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:33 am

[quote="aaronk"
When we talk Mary Cain (or Sarah Baxter, or other great HS'ers), we're talking, I believe, AMERICAN high schoolers, not African, European, Australian, Asian.[/quote]

The Canadian and Australian examples are certainly relevant because they come from the same general background as American teenagers, especially the Americans. Even with American middle distance runners I doubt 4:11 is on par with 2:00, and at the last Games an American with a PR not as good as 2:00 won the 800 while Mary Cain was about fifth with her 4:11, so she is not even at the head of the class in the current US crop.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby bushop » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:00 am

What is the career priority for young track & field talent? Pick one...

-- age group records
-- world records
-- WC and Olympic teams and medals
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby lonewolf » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:56 pm

I think priority for most young athletes escalates as they discover their talent and potential.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:52 pm

While "Sandy" is being a bit obstreperous, I would guess that road 5K will go off on November 3rd (this Saturday) in NYC!!
The field includes some VERY big American names....Flanagan, Goucher, Uhl...and Mary Cain!!
I'm assuming that Mary will run like she always does....aggressively!!
Meaning, she'll mix it up with the Big Gals!!

A new article on the front page basically repeats the story of Salazar joining forces with Mary.
But he goes into a bit of detail on what he meant by "biomechanical" deficiencies in Mary.
He spoke of her arm carriage (too close to her chest) and her posture (she hunches over, shoulders rounded), and said her legs and stride are fine, but that he'll need to work on everything "from the belly button on up"!!

Questions:

1. Her "deficient" arm carriage didn't seem to hurt her when she set records in 2011 and 2012!! Why change it?? It was said of Jim Ryun and Peter Snell that, for 3 and a half laps of a mile race, they had AWFUL form....but that in the last lap or 220, they ran like gazelles!! So does Mary!!

2. WHY does Mary have hunched shoulders?? Is it just "bad biomechanics", as Salazar intimates?? Or is it something peculiar to Mary Cain, and thus could be termed "natural" or "genetic"?? Again, it didn't seem to hurt her when she ran all her fast times these past two years!!

As I said in another post.....If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!

I hope Salazar is egoless enough to leave well enough alone!!

And, besides this Saturday's race, what's NEXT for Mary in the racing world??
An indoor race...or races?? Which ones?/
Another road race??
A national HS cross country race??

Again, I hope Salazar does NOT limit her to just training and fixing her "biomechanical deficiencies"!!!
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby 18.99s » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:20 am

aaronk wrote:1. Her "deficient" arm carriage didn't seem to hurt her when she set records in 2011 and 2012!! Why change it?? It was said of Jim Ryun and Peter Snell that, for 3 and a half laps of a mile race, they had AWFUL form....but that in the last lap or 220, they ran like gazelles!! So does Mary!!

2. WHY does Mary have hunched shoulders?? Is it just "bad biomechanics", as Salazar intimates?? Or is it something peculiar to Mary Cain, and thus could be termed "natural" or "genetic"?? Again, it didn't seem to hurt her when she ran all her fast times these past two years!!

Her times are fast for a junior, but aren't world class if you look beyond the junior level. And not that fast compared to the best juniors around the world; she's not even in the top 10.

To become a world beater at the junior and adult levels, she will have to do something different from the status quo. Salazar wants to prepare her to be the best junior in the world and then an Olympic medal contender, not just the fastest junior in America.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby br » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:44 am

aaronk, sounds like you have the ego problem regarding what's best for Mary Cain, not Salazar. You are talking as if Cain is an established professional. Give her a chance to grow up.

Don't know why decafan's post is now missing from this thread, but here it is...



Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby decafan » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:01 am

aaronk wrote:While "Sandy" is being a bit obstreperous, I would guess that road 5K will go off on November 3rd (this Saturday) in NYC!!
The field includes some VERY big American names....Flanagan, Goucher, Uhl...and Mary Cain!!
I'm assuming that Mary will run like she always does....aggressively!!
Meaning, she'll mix it up with the Big Gals!!

A new article on the front page basically repeats the story of Salazar joining forces with Mary.
But he goes into a bit of detail on what he meant by "biomechanical" deficiencies in Mary.
He spoke of her arm carriage (too close to her chest) and her posture (she hunches over, shoulders rounded), and said her legs and stride are fine, but that he'll need to work on everything "from the belly button on up"!!

Questions:

1. Her "deficient" arm carriage didn't seem to hurt her when she set records in 2011 and 2012!! Why change it?? It was said of Jim Ryun and Peter Snell that, for 3 and a half laps of a mile race, they had AWFUL form....but that in the last lap or 220, they ran like gazelles!! So does Mary!!

2. WHY does Mary have hunched shoulders?? Is it just "bad biomechanics", as Salazar intimates?? Or is it something peculiar to Mary Cain, and thus could be termed "natural" or "genetic"?? Again, it didn't seem to hurt her when she ran all her fast times these past two years!!

As I said in another post.....If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!

I hope Salazar is egoless enough to leave well enough alone!!

And, besides this Saturday's race, what's NEXT for Mary in the racing world??
An indoor race...or races?? Which ones?/
Another road race??
A national HS cross country race??

Again, I hope Salazar does NOT limit her to just training and fixing her "biomechanical deficiencies"!!!



Aaronk, what is your obsession with this 16 year old girl? I can't be the only one starting to get creeped out by your posts. Enough already.
Last edited by br on Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Marlow » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:54 am

br wrote: 2. WHY does Mary have hunched shoulders?? Is it just "bad biomechanics", as Salazar intimates??

To quote His Brattiness, Mr. McEnroe, "You've GOT to be kidding me!"
Salazar had hellaciously effed-up biomechanics. He looked as bad as Zatopek, but with a more shuffling gait. Didn't seem to slow him (or Z).
I believe in biomechanics for everyone except distance runners, whose only dictum should be "Am I comfortable?"
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:36 am

To "br" and/or "decafan":

I have an "obsession" with Mary Cain??
WHAT??

First, I expect an apology!
Second, let me give reasons for this so called "obsession".

Cain holds both the 9th and 10th grade records for the outdoor 1500--4:17,84 and 4:11.01, respectively.
Even if she stays exactly where she is, with ZERO improvement, she'll SHATTER both the 11th and 12th grade 1500 records!!
She now has distance running's most respected and successful coach (who is still coaching!!) as her "coach from afar".
Other people--experts in the field--have labeled her as "the best American distance prospect since Mary Decker"!!

The above are FACTS!!
And please note it was not ME who called her the next Mary Decker!!

No, I'm NOT obsessed!!
At least not in the way "br"/"decafan" intimated I was!!
They even called it "creepy"!!

No, if I have an "obsession" regarding Mary Cain, it is with her POTENTIAL to SHATTER RECORDS!!
Yes, I have an "obsession" with wanting to see records broken.....ANY records.....World, National, Collegiate, High School, Individual Year Age, Class (in school) Meet, and any others that are available to break!!
And that goes for ANYONE....male, female, old, young, indoors, outdoors, Olympic medal winner, or just "the best......prospect since Mary Decker"!!

To Marlow:

Thank you.....for agreeing with me!!
Yes, Salazar himself had "biomechanical deficiencies", which didn't slow him down one bit!!
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby preston » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:06 am

aaronk wrote:To Marlow:

Thank you.....for agreeing with me!!
Yes, Salazar himself had "biomechanical deficiencies", which didn't slow him down one bit!!

Both of you are wrong. Dead wrong and short-sighted. Did it ever occur to either of you that Salazar would have been better off if he had corrected his biomechanical deficiencies rather than cutting holes in his singlet? If Cain improved her stride by only one inch she would knock approximately 3-4 seconds off of her time; that's if nothing else improved. Biomechanics are important and this talk about "comfortable" and Ryan and Snell is ... well ... not serious - to put it as diplomatic as I possibly can. There is a reason that the front page of this site has America's best distance runners doing planks and evangelizing the importance of core strength.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby bushop » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:12 am

Marlow wrote: had hellaciously effed-up biomechanics. He looked as bad as Zatopek, but with a more shuffling gait. Didn't seem to slow him (or Z).[/quote
aaronk wrote:Yes, himself had "biomechanical deficiencies", which didn't slow him down one bit!!

You assume Salazar (... and Zatopek) could not have run faster or won more... what do you base this on?
Last edited by bushop on Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Marlow » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:36 am

preston wrote:Both of you are wrong. Dead wrong and short-sighted. Did it ever occur to either of you that Salazar would have been better off if he had corrected his biomechanical deficiencies

Not for one nano-second. You eff with the gait of a world-class marathoner at your EXTREME peril. If you were indeed a world-class marathoner and have biomechanically optimized your gait to greater success, I retract and apologize. Otherwise . . .
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby preston » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:46 am

Marlow wrote:
preston wrote:Both of you are wrong. Dead wrong and short-sighted. Did it ever occur to either of you that Salazar would have been better off if he had corrected his biomechanical deficiencies

Not for one nano-second. You eff with the gait of a world-class marathoner at your EXTREME peril. If you were indeed a world-class marathoner and have biomechanically optimized your gait to greater success, I retract and apologize. Otherwise . . .

comments like that really make me question your effectiveness as a coach... The reason why you begin effecting her efficiency now is so that she doesn't become a world-class marathoner in her 20's with a effed up biomechanics. Something Salazar may have been had someone addressed his issues a lot sooner.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby TN1965 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:57 am

Changing the gait of an established runner is risky, that's exactly why you need to address this issue when the runner is still young.

When Salazar started coaching, the first person he talked to was Tom Tellez, along with other spring coaches. And all of them agreed that running is running, and gait is as important for distance runners as it is for sprinters.

About the importance of posture, and why young women like Cain tend to have bad posture, I'd suggest this book by Dicharry. It also explains a lot of other biomechanical issues about running.

http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Runners-U ... 1620871599
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:34 am

preston wrote:
Marlow wrote:
preston wrote:Both of you are wrong. Dead wrong and short-sighted. Did it ever occur to either of you that Salazar would have been better off if he had corrected his biomechanical deficiencies

Not for one nano-second. You eff with the gait of a world-class marathoner at your EXTREME peril. If you were indeed a world-class marathoner and have biomechanically optimized your gait to greater success, I retract and apologize. Otherwise . . .

comments like that really make me question your effectiveness as a coach... The reason why you begin effecting her efficiency now is so that she doesn't become a world-class marathoner in her 20's with a effed up biomechanics. Something Salazar may have been had someone addressed his issues a lot sooner.


Well, by most measures I have seen his effectiveness as a coach is quite good. The flips the question to one of the astuteness of your insights and comments. Clearly, there are some pretty big egos here as regards their knowledge of the sport. You seem to be on the upper part of that distribution and it is not clear that the way that you present the underlying knowledge that supports that opinion of self is as effectively communicated as your ego is. Every time you say something negative about the person whose opinion you disagree with your ego is sticking out and basically undermines anything you want to say. If you care about your influence of your opinions, make them about the content not the messenger.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby preston » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:49 am

26mi235 wrote:
preston wrote:
Marlow wrote:
preston wrote:Both of you are wrong. Dead wrong and short-sighted. Did it ever occur to either of you that Salazar would have been better off if he had corrected his biomechanical deficiencies

Not for one nano-second. You eff with the gait of a world-class marathoner at your EXTREME peril. If you were indeed a world-class marathoner and have biomechanically optimized your gait to greater success, I retract and apologize. Otherwise . . .

comments like that really make me question your effectiveness as a coach... The reason why you begin effecting her efficiency now is so that she doesn't become a world-class marathoner in her 20's with a effed up biomechanics. Something Salazar may have been had someone addressed his issues a lot sooner.


Well, by most measures I have seen his effectiveness as a coach is quite good. The flips the question to one of the astuteness of your insights and comments. Clearly, there are some pretty big egos here as regards their knowledge of the sport. You seem to be on the upper part of that distribution and it is not clear that the way that you present the underlying knowledge that supports that opinion of self is as effectively communicated as your ego is. Every time you say something negative about the person whose opinion you disagree with your ego is sticking out and basically undermines anything you want to say. If you care about your influence of your opinions, make them about the content not the messenger.

The only person who seems ego-driven in this "exchange" is you. Your preachy style permeates all of your posts barely succeeding to convey your meaning or intent. I made you a moderator since you so desperately want to be one. Take a bow.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby br » Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:42 am

aaronk wrote:To "br" and/or "decafan":

I have an "obsession" with Mary Cain??
WHAT??

First, I expect an apology!
Second, let me give reasons for this so called "obsession".

The above are FACTS!!


Well, the FACT is that you intimated Salazar's ego may get in the way of Mary Cain's success when you said:

"I hope Salazar is egoless enough to leave well enough alone!!"

Do you really have that low of opinion of Salazar and his methods that you think he would impede her with his training regimen?
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:19 am

preston wrote:The only person who seems ego-driven in this "exchange" is you. Your preachy style permeates all of your posts barely succeeding to convey your meaning or intent. I made you a moderator since you so desperately want to be one. Take a bow.


Personal attacks are your style, whether it be jazz, Marlow, me, or many others. Is this really a sign of expertise? Let your content carry the message because that is what people are interested in, that is what you have to contribute to the board, and the other stuff gets in the way of your content. I suppose that I risk my first banning by going this route but if you continue this way we will be denied what you can and do bring to this forum (and the TNTF).
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:33 am

br wrote:
aaronk wrote:To "br" and/or "decafan":

I have an "obsession" with Mary Cain??
WHAT??

First, I expect an apology!
Second, let me give reasons for this so called "obsession".

The above are FACTS!!


Well, the FACT is that you intimated Salazar's ego may get in the way of Mary Cain's success when you said:

"I hope Salazar is egoless enough to leave well enough alone!!"

Do you really have that low of opinion of Salazar and his methods that you think he would impede her with his training regimen?


Maybe I went off too heavily against Alberto, who I always admired and respected as an athlete!!
And maybe I shouldn't single him out for his coaching methods.
I did so because he's now coaching Mary Cain, whom I also think has great talent, and even greater potential.
So maybe my complaint should be against ALL coaches, not just Salazar.

My greatest worry with the Salazar-Cain hook-up is that he'll have her train and train, work on her bio-mechanics (I agree with Marlow about whether he SHOULD try to fix it!!)....but advise/tell her to NOT enter races now, or at least not too many of them, and concentrate on the training/"improving" her form.

She's surging!!
Improving in one year from 4:17.84 to 4:11.01 (with several incremental improvements along the way!!!) tells me she's ready to drop another 5-7 seconds off her time next year.
And I think she has potential in the 800 and in the 3K/2 mile and 5K range too.

She raced fairly often in HS the past two years....and did rather well.
I think limiting her races would be a mistake.
She seems to thrive on racing!!

And while Salazar hasn't SAID he's going to limit her racing, his emphasis (in interviews) is on fixing her biomechanics and thinking about "the next 10 years".
Besides, you need to race to break records.
I think it would be a waste of her vast talent and potential to have her train and train the next year or two....while racing infrequently.

I like the motto......When you're hot, you're hot!!
Moving her emphasis from racing (and going for records and fast times, which MARY HERSELF has indicated she wants!!) to mostly training room stuff could cause her to lose some of that momentum she has going now.

This winter, indoors, she SHOULD try for SEVEN records......the HS indoor 800, 1K, 1500/1 mile, 3K/2 mile, and the 5K!!
Hopefully, there will be enough opportunities (and meets!!) for her to at least TRY!!!
And that Salazar will encourage her to!!
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby preston » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:34 am

As usual, 26, you have nothing to add so you're just being a pain and trying to ruin the thread. I'm moving on. I suggest you do the same.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/30/sport ... .html?_r=0
To preserve Cain’s N.C.A.A. eligibility, the Cains agreed to pay Salazar as well as all of the costs for Mary’s travel and equipment. Those may be significant because Cain, no longer a member of her high school team, will run as an independent in races around the nation.

Pay Salazar and all costs of travel and equipment just to retain NCAA eligibility? Is this a wink with Nike gear thrown in or is this real? Personally, I think she could do better turning pro - if she's good enough. All of her gear, travel and coaching would be paid for and with Salazar as her coach, Nike would pay for all of her schooling. She's already giving up running with the high school kids to get better, she should strongly consider giving up college running when the time comes.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby TN1965 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:47 pm

aaronk wrote: My greatest worry with the Salazar-Cain hook-up is that he'll have her train and train, work on her bio-mechanics (I agree with Marlow about whether he SHOULD try to fix it!!)....but advise/tell her to NOT enter races now, or at least not too many of them, and concentrate on the training/"improving" her form.


http://news.runnersworld.com/2012/10/20 ... mary-cain/

...Salazar telephoned Cain’s coaches in Bronxville, a suburb of New York City, to report what he’d seen and suggest improvements. He reported the same to Mary’s father, Charlie Cain, an anesthesiologist with little background in the sport. “We were honored by Alberto’s call,” says Cain. “It also came at a crucial juncture in Mary’s running career. For some time we’d been concerned that she was overracing, that after her big summer in 2012, the standard three-season high school running calendar was wearing her down.”...
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Marlow » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:53 pm

preston wrote:comments like that really make me question your effectiveness as a coach.

Well, dear, as you recall, I said biomechs DO apply to all the other events. Since I don't coach distance runners, I guess you should call off the dogs?
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby decafan » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:11 pm

How silly to use Alberto's running form as proof that his approach is flawed. How insulting to him to assume he hasn't learned anything about coaching since his days as an athlete. Did you happen to notice Galen Rupp's form at the Olympics? pretty efficient if you ask me.

As far as Aaronk getting an apology? Sure. Aaronk, I am so very sorry you are obsessed with a 16 year old girl. I wish you had a shred of credibility by also being obsessed with other Jr athletes in other events who show a similar level of international potential as Ms. Cain (Tyreek Hill, Aldrich Bailey, Tanner Sork, Eric Futch, Shawn Barber, Braheme Days, Sam Mattis, Sean Keller, Shayla Sanders, Cayla Hatton, Gabrielle Williams, Shelbi Vaughan, Haley Crouser, or Kendell Williams). But you don't. Because you are obsessed with her. It is creepy. As is your obsession with using two exclamation points or question marks at the end of most of your sentences. The rule in one or three. The other rule is don't use exclamation points. Ever.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:17 pm

To Decafan:
I questioned whether to reply at all to YOUR continued OBSESSION with MY supposed "obsession" with "16 year old girl" Mary Cain.
I wasn't going to, but I feel you need a bit more understanding of where I come from!

If forced to choose among all the events of T&F, I'd go with all the events between 800 and the marathon.
Do I follow, and love, ALL of T&F? YES! But the above are my "obsessions".

Also, in ANY sport I've followed, marks and records and numbers have been more exciting for me than win-loss, medals, or which team won. Another lifetime "obsession"

Re: Mary Cain.
Those other names you listed...with the possible exception of Cayla Hatton...do NOT fit the parameters of my "obsessions".
But am I excited by their efforts this past year? YES!
In fact, do you recall I started a thread this past summer about who would win the HS AOY for females??
The USA had a banner year in the girl's HS category. You forgot to list Ajee Wilson and Brianna Nerud. I can't wait until the next issue of T&FN comes out, to see who won, and in what order all the great gals finished in the AOY voting! (Probably Wilson or Vaughan #1, though I think Cain deserves that spot!!)
But how many of the athletes you listed SHATTERED the HSR by as much as Cain did in the 1500?
Hasay's mark was a damn good one. For Mary to break it by 3.49 secs was damn impressive!!

Given my favoring the 800-mar distances, I'm just not AS excited by the exploits of Vaughan, H Crouser, S Barber et al.
But remember it was ME who first (??) said that Kendell Williams had the potential to get 6000 in the Hept in 2013!! I hope she does!
Aldrich Bailey?? Hasn't broken any records yet, and he was a 12th grader, not a 10th grader, a la Cain. (Ditto with Hatton, who now is a frosh at Stanford!)

If you're saying (Due apologies if you're NOT!!) my "obsession" with Cain is close to being pedophilic or stalkerish, then you're WRONG!!

If ANY female athlete in her teens turned me on IN ANY WAY last year, it was Michelle Jenneke, who did that sexy pre-race dance that went viral on YouTube!!
(Jenneke was 18, I believe, not 16, at the time!!)
Mary?? She's a charming, expressive, VERY confident young lady with TONS of athletic talent and potential!!
And she fits my dual "obsessions"......being a distance runner and ALSO being obsessed with setting records or running fast times. (Read/watch her interviews!!)

But you are TOTALLY off base in implying my "obsessions" are anything more than what I just said.

As for the "!!" and "??", that's just a lifetime habit, evolved through 100's of LONG (10-50 pages, handwritten, with BIC pen on lined notebook paper, college ruled) letters written during my 68 years old life!!
It's a habit I'm unlikely to break...even though I've been a writer since 1965!!
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby TN1965 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:39 pm

decafan wrote:How silly to use Alberto's running form as proof that his approach is flawed. How insulting to him to assume he hasn't learned anything about coaching since his days as an athlete. Did you happen to notice Galen Rupp's form at the Olympics? pretty efficient if you ask me.


Here is a quote from his book. ("14 minutes")

"How much more could I have accomplished, for instance, if a coach had cleaned up my notoriously ungainly running form and maximized my strength, agility and coordination?" (p.218)
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:50 pm

TN1965 wrote:
decafan wrote:How silly to use Alberto's running form as proof that his approach is flawed. How insulting to him to assume he hasn't learned anything about coaching since his days as an athlete. Did you happen to notice Galen Rupp's form at the Olympics? pretty efficient if you ask me.


Here is a quote from his book. ("14 minutes")

"How much more could I have accomplished, for instance, if a coach had cleaned up my notoriously ungainly running form and maximized my strength, agility and coordination?" (p.218)


Wow!
Didn't even know he'd written a book, let alone its title!!
If it's a memoir of his career, I'll look it up on Amazon, and buy it!
(Not interested in training manuals!)
But why that title?? What significance does "14 minutes" have for him??
Breaking 14 for 5K?

I think his most memorable, and maybe his best, race was that track 10K he ran against Henry Rono in 1982 at Hayward Field!
I think he beat Rono (or vice versa??) by one-tenth of a second, something like 27:29.90 to 27:30.0.
And it was run in pouring rain on an already flooded track.
One of T&F's most iconic photos is of Salazar and Rono at the STARTING line of that race, ALREADY drenched by the rain!!

Anyway, thanks for the heads up on his book!!

Added later:

Jeez!
I'd forgotten about his near-death experience!!
THAT is what the title is about!!
Looked it up on Amazon just now...even scanned the first few pages of it....and will definitely be buying it soon!!
Looks like a VERY interesting book!!
The copyright date is 2012, but before you mentioned it, I'd NOT heard of it!!
Thanks again!!
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:53 am

Someone mentioned (on the NYC Marathon and Weather thread) seeing a Tweet saying that the NYRR has cancelled Saturday's 5K race.
This is as yet unconfirmed.

However, if true, there goes Mary Cain's first race under the tutelage of Alberto Salazar!!

So, what, if any, will be her substitute race??

added a few minutes later:

Apparently, Mary Wittenburg has denied this, and the race is still on!!

YAYYYYY!!!! :D
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby 18.99s » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:11 pm

aaronk wrote:If ANY female athlete in her teens turned me on IN ANY WAY last year, it was Michelle Jenneke, who did that sexy pre-race dance that went viral on YouTube!!
(Jenneke was 18, I believe, not 16, at the time!!)


She was actually 19. Yes, I researched her age on the Web in order to know how much I was allowed to appreciate her performance.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:29 pm

aaronk wrote:But why that title?? What significance does "14 minutes" have for him??
Breaking 14 for 5K?


The amount of time that he thinks he was 'dead'.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby PDJ551 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:56 am

To respond to the school that urges Salazar "To leave well enough alone" takes me back to the days just before the 1984 Olympics. I was attending a summer track camp in which Arthur Lydiard was the guest lecturer. Every morning, after we ran a shake up run with him, he would explain another feature of his program. In the afternoon he would teach us his drills and critique our running form. In the evening we would watch various video tapes on running. At that time Salazar was one of the best in the world and we had high hopes for him in the upcoming Games. Lydiard shocked us by stating that Salazar had to many biomechanical flaws which not only would hinder his performances but injuries would soon most likely occur. No one said anything in response but most of us wouldn't accept that assessment. But Lydiard was proved to be correct.

Not long ago Lydiard explained how his poor form sabotaged his career. As a result he pays much attention to form. Most certainly there have been runners who have done very well with poor form, but I tend to agree with Lydiard and Salazar on the importance of proper form.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:20 pm

The NYC Marathon thread says the 5K is cancelled!

Sooooo.....does Al have a replacement race for her??
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Dutra5 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:34 pm

aaronk wrote:The NYC Marathon thread says the 5K is cancelled!

Sooooo.....does Al have a replacement race for her??


Bizarre. Just bizarre.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:46 pm

Dutra5 wrote:
aaronk wrote:The NYC Marathon thread says the 5K is cancelled!

Sooooo.....does Al have a replacement race for her??


Bizarre. Just bizarre.


What's "bizarre"??
That Wittenburg cancelled the race?
Or that I'm asking whether Salazar has another race Mary can compete in....either this weekend, or very soon (next weekend??)??

This NYC race was to include an elite field, including Uhl and Simpson, among several other World Class Americans.
It would have been a golden opportunity for Mary to strut her stuff against Olympians!!

I don't think it's bizarre to question whether she'll have another race to go to!!
Not to mention Simpson, Uhl and company!!)
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Blues » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:13 pm

Regarding biomechanics, in Mary's case she seems to have a bone structure that results in narrower shoulders than most other athletes.. I wonder if at least some of her allegedly poor upper body biomechanics might actually be more efficient for her anatomy than what's commonly accepted as correct biomechanics, since differing physiques and bone structures can affect types and ranges of motion.. Regardless, it'll be interesting to see how her form changes in the future.
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Dutra5 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:56 am

aaronk wrote:
What's "bizarre"??
That Wittenburg cancelled the race?
Or that I'm asking whether Salazar has another race Mary can compete in....either this weekend, or very soon (next weekend??)??


The infatuation with a HSer
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:22 pm

Dutra5 wrote:
aaronk wrote:
What's "bizarre"??
That Wittenburg cancelled the race?
Or that I'm asking whether Salazar has another race Mary can compete in....either this weekend, or very soon (next weekend??)??


The infatuation with a HSer


Here we go again!
Let's see, in the course of this "discussion" on this thread, I've been called...
"obsessed"
"creepy"
"bizarre"
"infatuated".
What's next?? (I won't even guess!!) :x

But let's look at some salient FACTS...which name-callers don't usually do!!

1. This thread now has close to 100 comments, and has been viewed well over 2000 times!!
I guess others are "interested" (Won't use the above terms!!) in Mary too!!

2. Mary holds the frosh and soph HSR's in the 1500, plus 1 or 3 other class records. She not only just broke Hasay's mark (Another HS'er many were "obsessed" with in her HS days!!), she SMASHED it into another galaxy!!

3. Alberto Salazar, probably THE most beloved and respected distance coach extant today, met her for 5 seconds, then watched a 5 minute YouTube video, and called her to ask if he could be her coach!! Tell me, what name would you apply to HIM??

4. While she only came in 2nd in the 2012 AOY voting (Not surprised in such a LOADED girls field!!), in ANY other year, she'd be a CLEAR # 1!!

5. Salazar had placed her in a road 5K (now cancelled) LOADED with American Olympians and record-setters!! This for "a 16 year old girl".....or "a HS'er". She's also been dubbed "the next Mary Decker"!! And it wasn't ME who so dubbed her!!

I thought name calling was BANNED from this forum!! Guess not!!
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby Dutra5 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:47 am

aaronk wrote:
Dutra5 wrote:
aaronk wrote:
What's "bizarre"??
That Wittenburg cancelled the race?
Or that I'm asking whether Salazar has another race Mary can compete in....either this weekend, or very soon (next weekend??)??


The infatuation with a HSer


Here we go again!
Let's see, in the course of this "discussion" on this thread, I've been called...
"obsessed"
"creepy"
"bizarre"
"infatuated".
What's next?? (I won't even guess!!) :x



Exactly
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby aaronk » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:17 pm

Dutra5 wrote:
aaronk wrote:
Dutra5 wrote:
aaronk wrote:
What's "bizarre"??
That Wittenburg cancelled the race?
Or that I'm asking whether Salazar has another race Mary can compete in....either this weekend, or very soon (next weekend??)??


The infatuation with a HSer


Here we go again!
Let's see, in the course of this "discussion" on this thread, I've been called...
"obsessed"
"creepy"
"bizarre"
"infatuated".
What's next?? (I won't even guess!!) :x



Exactly


Okay, that's it!!
I've taken enough CRAP from "Dutra5"!!

GH.....please BAN "Dutra5" from T&FN Message Board.....for NAME CALLING above and beyond!!

Or at least tell me if there's any way I can DELETE his/her posts from my computer!!
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Re: Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

Postby polevaultpower » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:40 pm

aaronk wrote:Okay, that's it!!
I've taken enough CRAP from "Dutra5"!!

GH.....please BAN "Dutra5" from T&FN Message Board.....for NAME CALLING above and beyond!!

Or at least tell me if there's any way I can DELETE his/her posts from my computer!!


While I do not support name calling, I think you need to grow a thicker skin...
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