Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

[bushop]

Mary is a time-oriented runner, from all I've read.
She prefers a fast time, a PR, a record, over a medal or even a victory.
(My kind of gal!!!)

Could you share links to these articles?

[ed gee]

Why limit her, why not SIX high school records in TWO races?

Here's a way for Mary to get FOUR High School Records, but running just TWO races!!

[Marlow]

Why limit her, why not SIX high school records in TWO races?

Here's a way for Mary to get FOUR High School Records, but running just TWO races!!

Ohfergoodnessakes - just have her run a Marathon and catch her 100, 200, 400, 800, 1500, 5000, 10000 and Half-Mar splits and I'm sure they will ALL be records!!

[26mi235]

Is she even the best high school distance runner? Sarah Baxter just put in a bit of a bid for that crown running 16:00 to break the record by 10 seconds for the tough but short (2.93 miles) course.

[aaronk]

Why limit her, why not SIX high school records in TWO races?

Here's a way for Mary to get FOUR High School Records, but running just TWO races!!

Ohfergoodnessakes - just have her run a Marathon and catch her 100, 200, 400, 800, 1500, 5000, 10000 and Half-Mar splits and I'm sure they will ALL be records!!

Tell me, were/are you also critical of that indoor meet in Virginia in 2001 or the Pre meet in 2001 that timed the 1500 enroute to the mile, knowing Webb was going for a record, or at least a very fast time??
Would you have preferred Webb got "only" the mile marks??

Funny, but back in the yard days, I remember Ron Clarke ran a track 10 mile WR of 47:12 or something like that.
One record book or magazine (Athletics Annual?? T&FN??) listed a whole bunch of his enroute splits, saying these were the "fastest ever" times at those distances.

And I ain't talking "normal" stuff like 6 miles.
I'm talking "7 and 3/4 miles" or "9 and 1/4 miles", and so on. There were maybe 10 or more quarter mile splits (for the distances after the six mile mark), indicating Clarke's times were "records" for those distances!!

Forgetting Ms Cain for the moment, let's focus on ANY great runner, at ANY level, male or female, who's shooting for either the 2 mile or 1 mile records (HS, Coll., or WR).

If he/she is gunning for a record at one of the mile distances (1 or 2), why NOT have them time him/her enroute.....just in case....so IF they break the record, they'd get a time, and maybe a record, at the metric points also, the 1500 or 3000??

Obviously, the most realistic marks available for that are NOT the WR's.
But look at the indoor marks for the HS one and two mile (and 1500/3000) for girls.
1500/mile.......4:18.9--4:38.5.
3000/2 mile.....9:17.4--9:55.92.

If Mary came by 1500 in just 4:15...4 seconds slower than her best...she could finish the mile in under 4:35.
Two records for the price of one.
What if she ran that 4:35, getting the mile record, but was NOT timed enroute??
Why waste the effort??

If she can run 4:11, she should be capable of running 9:00 (or faster) in the 3K. Extended through to 2 miles, she could probably run 9:35, about 20 secs faster than the record.

Again, if she's gonna run 9:35, why not time her 3K enroute, and give her TWO records instead of "just" the 2 mile??

Again, save the extra effort!!
It's just common sense.
All it takes are timers, or a timing mechanism, at the metric marks in those races.

And NO, it does NOT work for other distances, as you satirically (??) suggest.
I never said that!!

[aaronk]

Mary is a time-oriented runner, from all I've read.
She prefers a fast time, a PR, a record, over a medal or even a victory.
(My kind of gal!!!)

Could you share links to these articles?

I'm not technically proficient enough to provide a link, but I DO have a direct quote from Mary herself!!

There's an article on MaxPreps.com, by Joseph Santoliquito, dated May 22 of this year. This was written after her Penn mile of 4:39.28, which broke the Penn record for HS girls.

To Cain, the lineup of runners didn't matter. Her focus was, is, and always seems to be time.
Her largest priority is to simply beat her previous best mark. Thus far, it's been a winning strategy.
(Mary talking...) "I'm very much of a time runner, trying to get down and build my strength. If I get a fast time, and I'm third, I'm still very excited. My goal has always been to get faster, and for me, improving at the Penn Relays is what I wanted to do. Every race for me is about running faster to see what I can do. I think a lot of runners look much more at who's the best when they line up. I try to focus on getting my best time."

[polevaultpower]

will he enter her in outdoor invitationals....as many as her family can afford to send her to....such as Stanford, Mt SAC, Penn, Texas, Drake, Kansas, Pre, NY GP, and others...in 2013??

By not competing for a HS team, she will only be eligible to break T&FN HS Records, not NFHS records. Which is fine, those are the only ones that matter, but it's worth noting.


It can be hard for an unattached HS athlete to find outdoor meets in the spring. During the season, almost every state has a rule that basically says a high school has to compete against other high schools. Unattached athletes are excluded. Many colleges don't want HS athletes in their meets (especially outdoors) because of potential recruiting or whatever concerns. She's looking at a pretty limited outdoor season until after the prep season is over.

Of the meets above, she'd only be eligible for the elite/pro sections at most of them. It's a bit of a reach to think she could get into Pre. NY would probably find a way to get her in since she's a local star.

[gh]

the New York people are smart enough to add her in a heartbeat should she say she wanted to run.

[Marlow]

Is she even the best high school distance runner? Sarah Baxter just put in a bit of a bid for that crown running 16:00 to break the record by 10 seconds for the tough but short (2.93 miles) course.

That's not even the fastest time THIS year. It's equivalent to a 17:00 5K and Amy-Eloise Neale has run a 16:31 5K (of course, courses vary widely).

[Marlow]

By not competing for a HS team, she will only be eligible to break T&FN HS Records, not NFHS records.

NFHS 'records' are totally bogus, supposing that a record can only be set in a meet they say it can.

[tandfman]

By not competing for a HS team, she will only be eligible to break T&FN HS Records, not NFHS records.

NFHS 'records' are totally bogus, supposing that a record can only be set in a meet they say it can.

I don't know if bogus is the right word. They are really NFHS records and, if you take them as such, they are perfectly legitimate. But fans correctly don't consider them to be national HS records, and so we ignore them.

BTW, USATF does something similar with its Youth Athletics records. I believe they recognize only marks set in USATF Youth Athletics/Junior Olympic competition. So Mary Cain, although certainly age-eligible, is entirely off USATF Youth's radar screen. Her 1500 record won't be recognized by USATF even though it is clearly superior to the USATF Youth record for applicable age group. Again, knowledgable fans pay no attention to those records.

[TN1965]

High school records, junior records, youth records, and collegiate records are nice, but I think national records are much better.

I am far more interested in whether Cain could break the American records years from now than how many HSRs she can break and whether they "count" or not.

[Marlow]

I don't know if bogus is the right word. They are really NFHS records and, if you take them as such, they are perfectly legitimate.

That's called circular reasoning - it's legit because I say it's legit.
I'll stick with 'totally bogus'.

[26mi235]

Is she even the best high school distance runner? Sarah Baxter just put in a bit of a bid for that crown running 16:00 to break the record by 10 seconds for the tough but short (2.93 miles) course.

That's not even the fastest time THIS year. It's equivalent to a 17:00 5K and Amy-Eloise Neale has run a 16:31 5K (of course, courses vary widely).

edited to add that MileSplit ranks Baxter first and Neale second while Cain is down in 12th.
http://usa.milesplit.com/articles/94707-usa-xc-rankings-2012-girls-individuals-as-of-10-22
Here are the top 12; notice that the girl in third is listed as unattached.

RANKINGS, INDIVIDUALS, GIRLS (name, grade, school, location; preseason rank):
1. Sarah Baxter, 11, Simi Valley HS, Simi Valley, CA; 5th
2. Amy-Eloise Neale, 12, Glacier Peak HS, Snohomish, WA; 1st
3. Alana Hadley, 10, unattached, NC; 2nd
4. Ashley Erba, 12, Warsaw Community HS, Warsaw, IN; 3rd
5. Julia Bos, 12, Christian HS, Grand Rapids, MI; 4th
6. Jordyn Colter, 10, Cherry Creek HS, Greenwood Village, CO; 8th
7. Erin Finn, 12, West Bloomfield HS, West Bloomfield, MI; 6th
8. Katie Knight, 12, North Central HS, Spokane, WA; 7th
9. Sophie Chase, 12, Lake Braddock HS, Burke, VA; 9th
10. Hagen Reedy, 12, Buchanan HS, Clovis, CA; 10th
11. Alexa Efraimson, 10, Camas HS, Camas, WA; 11th
12. Mary Cain, 11, Bronxville HS, Bronxville, NY; 12th

While the Mt SAC course is only 2.93 miles, it runs a tad slow due to three substantial hills that have to be climbed after the first, relatively flat mile. It is easily the equivalent of a 3-mile race, with some arguing that it is similar to a fast 5km (or track 5000), which is a little of a stretch. Given the pedigree of the course, I would guess that it is slightly superior to the Neale race.

By the way, is there a reason why Cain cannot compete in the post-season races. For NXN, the teams are nominally club teams and for Footlocker the Regional race is a pretty open affair and probably not under the purview of state or national high school dictates. Sisson did not compete for her high school (on the track, I do not remember XC) the last year and ran some of the post-season track races.

[polevaultpower]

Post-season meets should be fine for Cain.

Amy-Eloise is a beast. She's a tall, very strong girl. Her 16:31 was on a 4922 meter course, but she has several times this year in the low 17's and high 16's.

[aaronk]

Is she even the best high school distance runner? Sarah Baxter just put in a bit of a bid for that crown running 16:00 to break the record by 10 seconds for the tough but short (2.93 miles) course.

That's not even the fastest time THIS year. It's equivalent to a 17:00 5K and Amy-Eloise Neale has run a 16:31 5K (of course, courses vary widely).

I don't take CC course marks seriously.
Too many variables......i.e. weather, terrain, mud, gravel or grass, etc.
Not to mention that, for the girls, they usually run 5K's or thereabouts.
If you look at the line-ups closely, you'll see not many 5K specialists in HS, as 5K on the track is rarely run with HS girls.
They're usually milers moving up!!

Even Ms Cain!!
The longest race on the track I know of she's run is a 2 mile or 3K.
I think she WILL be a great 5K runner, but right now, she's an 800/mile specialist.

Also, she may be ranked only 12th so far because she's competed rarely in CC this season.

As for Baxter's 16:00 2.93 miler, so what!!
When/if she runs 16:00 on the TRACK in an ACTUAL 5K, I'll pay attention!!

No, CC times....at ANY level.....just aren't worth mentioning......except maybe in relation to other times on the SAME course!!!

That said, I'll be VERY interested to see what Cain will do in that NYC road 5K she's entered in for November 3rd!!

Does anyone know the course layout for that??
In Central Park??
Hilly??
Flat??
Lots of turns??

I doubt she would have entered that race if she didn't feel she could run FAST!!!
I'm hoping to see a mid-15's time for her!!
Or at least SUB-16:00!!

[Marlow]

I'll be VERY interested to see what Cain will do in that NYC road 5K she's entered in for November 3rd!! I'm hoping to see a mid-15's time for her!!

She's 16 years old.
At least wait till she's in college before you burden her with such Great Expectations.

[dj]

I wouldn't pay much attention to the stated length of high school cross country courses, at least not for another year or two.

The rule regarding measurement changed just last year. The rule now requires measuring "the shortest possible route a runner may take." Before that the measurement was taken "along the middle of the course."

Unless you're seen that your favorite course has been lengthened, even if only slightly, I wouldn't trust the measurement as being accurate or complying with current rules.

[Master Po]

Does anyone know the course layout for that??
In Central Park??
Hilly??
Flat??
Lots of turns??

Here's a statement about the course, from the event Web site:
"The primarily flat course for the Dash to the Finish Line makes it probably the fastest 5K in Manhattan."

Full description of course here:
http://www.nyrr.org/races-and-events/ny ... sh-line-5k

Last year was the first year for this event. Winners were Chris Thompson (GBR), 13:53, & Sara Hall (USA), 15:56. This year's field is deep & fast -- "17 Olympians (15 from 2012), eight women with personal bests under 15:20, and 11 men with personal bests under 13:20" -- so those times will likely be eclipsed:
http://www.iaaf.org/Mini/LRR12/News/New ... x?id=67947

[Marlow]

I wouldn't pay much attention to the stated length of high school cross country courses, at least not for another year or two.

Which is not even the primary reason that XC times are so meaningless - the course's terrain and conditions can slow a runner down by well over a minute. Some Florida HS courses are flat, hard-packed race courses. Some are sandy (or muddy!) and hilly; some have bales of hay in the way and have ditches filled with water!

[TN1965]

Sisson did not compete for her high school (on the track, I do not remember XC) the last year and ran some of the post-season track races.

She competed in XC and won the state title by a minute. After that, she skipped the track season to participate in the World Junior XC. But given she had won the state titles in 1600, 3200, and 4x800 as a junior, I don't think she would have gained much by competing for the track. (Her winning margin in 3200 was more than 10 sec., and it would have been even bigger in her senior season.)

Which brings up the question asked above, did she miss any "social" aspect of running by skipping the final track season? I don't know. I am just asking.

[Dutra5]

If he stops her or slows her, I will come to HATE Salazar!!

Dude. Step away from the ledge.

[TN1965]

From the front page...

"Bronxville star Cain will not defend state title"

"Cain, the Bronxville junior who is a two-time defending NYSPHSAA champion in cross country, says she will “probably not as of now” represent the Broncos in track, either..."

http://www.newyorksportswriters.org/blo ... IgZImehmYI

[Marlow]

"Cain, the Bronxville junior who is a two-time defending NYSPHSAA champion in cross country, says she will “probably not as of now” represent the Broncos in track, either..."

That is indeed unfortunate. There's a lot to be said for playing for your HS in a sport that goes far beyond athletics.

[aaronk]

"Cain, the Bronxville junior who is a two-time defending NYSPHSAA champion in cross country, says she will “probably not as of now” represent the Broncos in track, either..."

That is indeed unfortunate. There's a lot to be said for playing for your HS in a sport that goes far beyond athletics.

First, from what I've read, Mary will still remain eligible to break HSR's, despite not competing for her team. Of course, these would have to be in open meets (Pre??), or national HS or JR meets, like the New Balance or USATF JR's, etc.

As to your remarks, what kind of fun or challenge is it for Mary to, say, run a HS 800 going up against girls who find it difficult to break 2:10??
Or running a 1500 or mile (or, UGH!!!, a 1600) against girls who won't come NEAR 4:20, let alone go under it??

It's like an elite World Class runner going up against Mary, an 11th grader in high school!!
Unfair (to the lesser athletes), and NO challenge to Mary!!

She wants her times to keep dropping.
Running in front ALL THE TIME won't progress her marks!!
(Though, once IN front, she has no problem......her 62.5 last lap in her 4:39 mile as evidence!)
She needs to be challenged.....not by herself, but by OTHERS!!

And no one in HS girls track comes anywhere close to her!!
(Though I'd LOVE to see a head-to-head right now....at 5K.....against Sarah Baxter!!)

All that said, I agree with you 100% that there's more to being on a team besides athletics!!
And I have no doubt she'll miss those aspects of it.
(I hope, and expect, her to remain friends off-travk with the Bronxville girls!!)
But there's so many other examples of precocious HS athletes (in ANY sport) going out on their own, and thus missing out on the social aspects of competing for your team!!

[lonewolf]

I am content to let Little Mary Cain follow her head and heart in her athletic career.

She has already received acclaim for her running at peer level. Only she knows her priority of running; piling up easy victories in traditional HS team competition and social activities versus jumping to tougher competion and faster times.

[Helen S]

Don't the two US HS Olympic medalists still compete for their HS swimming teams?

[tandfman]

Swimming's different. Always has been.

[AS]

As I noted in a separate thread (about great HSers), Cain's performances need to be put into to some historical context.

Georgie Clarke of AUS ran 4:06.77 in Jan 2000 as a 15 yo (and went on to run the OG later that year and make the semis). She also ran 2:02.49 as a 14yo, and 2:01.73 at 16!

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographie ... index.html

(worth noting the lack of any real subsequent improvement too)...

[aaronk]

As I noted in a separate thread (about great HSers), Cain's performances need to be put into to some historical context.

Georgie Clarke of AUS ran 4:06.77 in Jan 2000 as a 15 yo (and went on to run the OG later that year and make the semis). She also ran 2:02.49 as a 14yo, and 2:01.73 at 16!

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographie ... index.html

(worth noting the lack of any real subsequent improvement too)...

When we talk Mary Cain (or Sarah Baxter, or other great HS'ers), we're talking, I believe, AMERICAN high schoolers, not African, European, Australian, Asian.

Sure, Mary's 4:11.01 (or her 2:03.34) doesn't compare too well with her international peers. (She finished just 6th in the WJ's against non-Americans!!)
(And remember, when Alan Webb broke Ryun's HS mile (and 1500) record, he finished FIFTH against El G and Co!!)

But putting aside those precocious teen girls who are in the record books, Mary stands as NUMBER ONE AMERICAN high schooler in the 1500 now. Her 4:39.28 mile and 2:03.34 also rate VERY highly....against other American high school girls!!

While Mary might improve GREATLY in the next year or two, we need to keep in mind she did what she did this year as a 16 year old sophomore!!

She's not yet equal to Faith Kipyegon, Jessica Judd, or those greats of yesteryear, such as Zola Budd, the Chinese crews of 1993 and 1997, Pam Jelimo et al.

But if she progresses as I believe she will, we could be seeing the HS record book REWRITTEN by the end of summer 2014!!

1:58?
2:35?
4:00? (3:59.9??)
4:18??
8:36??
9:10??
14:50??
30:50??

[Marlow]

But putting aside those precocious teen girls who are in the record books, Mary stands as NUMBER ONE AMERICAN high schooler in the 1500 now. Her 4:39.28 mile and 2:03.34 also rate VERY highly....against other American high school girls!!
While Mary might improve GREATLY . . .
But if she progresses as I believe she will . . .

I think his point was that in the Big Picture, she is 'just' a 16-year-old girl with great performances NOW and that's what we should be enjoying. She is not a World-Beater, even for her age, so Great Expectations are premature. If she and Salazar work out, and if she follows a similar trajectory as Rupp, THEN we're in for a great show in the future. We all wish her the best.

[decafan]

I think his point was that in the Big Picture, she is 'just' a 16-year-old girl with great performances NOW and that's what we should be enjoying. She is not a World-Beater, even for her age, so Great Expectations are premature. If she and Salazar work out, and if she follows a similar trajectory as Rupp, THEN we're in for a great show in the future. We all wish her the best.

Well said, Marlow.

[26mi235]

[quote="aaronk"
When we talk Mary Cain (or Sarah Baxter, or other great HS'ers), we're talking, I believe, AMERICAN high schoolers, not African, European, Australian, Asian.[/quote]

The Canadian and Australian examples are certainly relevant because they come from the same general background as American teenagers, especially the Americans. Even with American middle distance runners I doubt 4:11 is on par with 2:00, and at the last Games an American with a PR not as good as 2:00 won the 800 while Mary Cain was about fifth with her 4:11, so she is not even at the head of the class in the current US crop.

[bushop]

What is the career priority for young track & field talent? Pick one...

-- age group records
-- world records
-- WC and Olympic teams and medals

[lonewolf]

I think priority for most young athletes escalates as they discover their talent and potential.