A place for the discussion of all things not closely related to the sport and its competitive side. (Locked down several times a year during the major championships)
gh wrote:Wouldn't you say that nailing Armstrong will do more to clean up cycling than any 10 (100?) other busts combined?
For me, the answer is no. Why should it? However, I AM impressed that they're not "reassigning" the medals, but simply leaving first place empty. THAT is every bit as important as dismembering Armstrong, since it clearly acknowledges that the problem permeated the entire upper layer of the sport. It is the systemic nature of the issue that has always been my real concern.
For GH: Why are you not pushing for the official testing of those 1984 samples and the publication of the results? And the re-testing of any other significant holding of "old" championship samples? Isn't more truth-telling better than less here, if we want to scare individual sports "straight"?
gh wrote:Of course he was singled out, much in the same way that Victor Conte was. I'm happy to see that unlike regular drug-war law enforcement, where the mastermind criminals are allowed to plea-bargain their way out of things while their minions on the street draw harsh sentences, that USADA is actually making a habit out of going straight for the head, rather than just picking off low-hanging fruit.
I somewhat agree with your analogy, but I don't view Armstrong as one of the mastermind criminals like Conte was. In cycling I view guys like Eufemiano Fuentes and Michele Ferrari as the criminal masterminds. Armstrong was just a good customer, and going after him is like the DEA going after a drug addict, not a drug pusher.
gh wrote:Of course he was singled out, much in the same way that Victor Conte was. I'm happy to see that unlike regular drug-war law enforcement, where the mastermind criminals are allowed to plea-bargain their way out of things while their minions on the street draw harsh sentences, that USADA is actually making a habit out of going straight for the head, rather than just picking off low-hanging fruit.
I somewhat agree with your analogy, but I don't view Armstrong as one of the mastermind criminals like Conte was. In cycling I view guys like Eufemiano Fuentes and Michele Ferrari as the criminal masterminds. Armstrong was just a good customer, and going after him is like the DEA going after a drug addict, not a drug pusher.
But who had the power? In the Mexican drug wars, aren't the masterminds and the guys with all the power one and the same? In this story, it sounds like Armstrong had a lot more power than the Ferraris, and taking down the powerful guys may be what it's about.
gh wrote:Wouldn't you say that nailing Armstrong will do more to clean up cycling than any 10 (100?) other busts combined?
Perhaps, I don't know. What I find personally repulsive is a cop that pulls a red sports car out of a speeding convoy of numerous cars and trucks.
The application of justice here is incredibly uneven, but since Armstrong probably won't go to prison, it doesn't bother me as much as in cases where some that are guilty go to the big house while others do not. Lance will never want for food, shelter, a nice car, a plasma TV, friends, women, and groupies.
Armstrong made a lot of money for a large number of people in cycling, including the UCI.
I do have some reservations on the USADA. One of the points that they repeatedly claim is that he failed a drug test in 2001 and again in 2002. The guy who was in charge of that is absolutely beyond reproach and he said that he will never testify that it was a positive test, just one that drew attention going into the grey area. This very point is one where I had major doubts about what they really had, because if they kept trotting out that as one of their main points then it was possible that they did not have much.
jazzcyclist wrote:Remember, it was the FBI that did the heavy lifting in this investigation and then just handed over their files, which included all the sworn testimony, to USADA.
Simply not true. Everything in the USADA report was collected by USADA
USADA wrote:None of the evidence USADA summarizes in this Reasoned Decision was obtained from the United States federal law enforcement investigation involving Mr. Armstrong. After the announcement by U.S. District Attorney Andre Birotte on February 3, 2012, that he was discontinuing the criminal investigation of Armstrong’s conduct, USADA formally requested copies of non-grand jury evidence from the case. However, no documents have been received to date. As a result, none of the evidence assembled by USADA has come from federal law enforcement.
That may be but . . .
Despite his findings not being used in the federal court case against the American, who has always vehemently denied doping, the evidence gleaned did not go to waste.
It found its way to the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA), whose president Travis Tygart launched a similar, single-minded quest for the truth that would lead to the downfall of the world's most celebrated cyclist.. . . .Although the USADA will take much of the credit, UCI president Pat McQuaid believes Novitzky and the threat of criminal proceedings against many of those who testified against Armstrong was key.
Despite his findings not being used in the federal court case against the American, who has always vehemently denied doping, the evidence gleaned did not go to waste.
It found its way to the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA), whose president Travis Tygart launched a similar, single-minded quest for the truth that would lead to the downfall of the world's most celebrated cyclist.. . . .Although the USADA will take much of the credit, UCI president Pat McQuaid believes Novitzky and the threat of criminal proceedings against many of those who testified against Armstrong was key.
That's kind of what I suspected. Here are the key quotes from McQuaid:
"We tested Armstrong over 200 times and he was always negative, we tested the other riders many times and they were negative. Not only the UCI, but also USADA," McQuaid told AFP.
"Bear in mind that this report has not emerged thanks to a UCI or USADA investigation. It's Jeff Novitzky, a federal investigator, who collected all that information for the file.
I am grateful to USADA for what they have achieved. But they haven't achieved any more than the UCI could have achieved on their own," he said.
"They needed the support of the federal agents to do it, and that's evident."
As I said earlier, the FBI did all the heavy lifting. Here's David Millar's take on the importance of law enforcement in cleaning up the sport.
The downfall of Lance Armstrong has opened the world’s eyes up to what most of us within the sport knew, if not in the detail that the USADA file has revealed, that to win the Tour de France and many other big races was impossible without doping for a certain period of time. Of course races were won by clean riders, and many clean riders achieved remarkable careers, especially in hindsight, without doping, but the bottom line is that doping was rife and necessary to be the best.
Who is responsible for this? Most of us involved in professional cycling were in some way or another, it became a way of life. I’d hoped the Festina Affair would force change but the problem was too deeply embedded to be changed by one event.
It took several changes to take place. First came the anti-doping controls, they became more advanced, the drugs that had been previously undetectable became detectable.
Doping became a criminal offence in many European countries allowing for criminal investigations to delve deeper than any anti-doping agency or cycling governing body ever could; it was a criminal investigation that discovered my history of doping.
Exactly. By the way, I suspect the Tour on tv is dead very soon. I can't believe NBC wants to get involved with that anymore. And American cycling will soon be a thing of the past. I am sure LeMond is happy.
Conor Dary wrote:I suspect the Tour on tv is dead very soon. I can't believe NBC wants to get involved with that anymore.
You'd really have to think so. The real story here isn't or at least shouldn't be Armstrong--it's what looks to be a total meltdown of credibility in the event itself. Which WAS the key issue all along.
I've probably related this bit before, but i stopped in Paris on the way to Barcelona in '92. Wandered over from my hotel to the Champs d'Elysses to find a nice little sidewalk cafe for a morning beverage and was most distressed to find everywhere cordoned off and having to take very long walk around. oh, it was tour de france finish day!
At any rate, after the race and the guys were parading up and down the road I was fairly close to them and the first thing that struck me was that I hadn't seen faces that drawn, with eyeballs that sunken in the head since the Bataan Death March. I was stunned at how wasted they all looked.
I was even more stunned when the next weekend I picked up a copy of L'Équipe in Barcelona and noticed that everybody was up and hammering again at the tour-de-something-else.
I decided then and there that either these guys were all supermen, or......
Now the Boston and New York Marathons are jumping in on the fun.
Lance Armstrong’s name is likely to be expunged from the results of the New York City and Boston marathons, in addition to the Tour de France.
Officials from both NYC and Boston races said they expect to follow decisions by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency and the International Cycling Union to ban Amstrong from competition and strip him of his seven Tour de France titles. However, both marathons are likely to wait until any appeals have taken place. Armstrong had been banned in late summer from running in the Chicago Marathon as well as the NYC race; those and the Boston race are governed by USA Track and Field rules.
Conor Dary wrote:Exactly. By the way, I suspect the Tour on tv is dead very soon. I can't believe NBC wants to get involved with that anymore. And American cycling will soon be a thing of the past. I am sure LeMond is happy.
I doubt it, although the amount that they will have to pay will likely drop. Jazz, what is your opinion as the closest observer of the sport on this board?
Commenting after the UCI's release earlier in the week, Merckx said: "I'm sick, only for my sport. I met Lance many times, he never told me about doping, physicians or other things. He did not need to report to me, it was his problem but I fell into the trap. I am amazed at him, especially after what he went through." he told Le Soir.
Commenting after the UCI's release earlier in the week, Merckx said: "I'm sick, only for my sport. I met Lance many times, he never told me about doping, physicians or other things. He did not need to report to me, it was his problem but I fell into the trap. I am amazed at him, especially after what he went through." he told Le Soir.
Is he for real or is he doing his best Inspector Renault impression?
Shocked, shocked!! Yea, pretty moronic. All Armstrong's fault. The Tour is now the equivalent of a Child's Birthday Party only dirtied by LA.
General Ripper: Do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk, ice cream? Ice cream, Mandrake? Children's ice cream!...You know when fluoridation began?...1946. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual, and certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works. I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love...Yes, a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence. I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women...women sense my power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women, Mandrake...but I do deny them my essence.
Commenting after the UCI's release earlier in the week, Merckx said: "I'm sick, only for my sport. I met Lance many times, he never told me about doping, physicians or other things. He did not need to report to me, it was his problem but I fell into the trap. I am amazed at him, especially after what he went through." he told Le Soir.
Is he for real or is he doing his best Inspector Renault impression?
Although Merckx is undeniably the greatest cyclist ever, he did get popped for doping 2-3 times during his career, even in the era in which there was very little testing.
POE = EPO, the nickname the cyclists used for it, or Edgar
Wrong answer, Dookie! But a good try. Conor posted a quote (rant) from Gen. Jack Ripper from Dr. Strangelove. Minutes later, after the crazed General offs himself, Mandrake is puzzling over a piece of paper with various permutations of P O E on it (P O E , O P E, Peace On Earth, On Earth Peace, etc) figuring the recall code must be some variation of those three letters.
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