Fountain To Try Bobsled


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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby j-a-m » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:30 am

guru wrote: Former Illinois Shot stud Aja Evans top performer in push championships. Fountain finishes 4th.

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Bobsled-and- ... title.aspx

Illinois website lists her 60m PB as 7.63 from 2010.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby j-a-m » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:32 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Being fast in track is all about power-to-weight ratio, while it would seem that the bobsled is about sheer power. It reminds of climbing vs time trialing in the sport of cycling.

Guess an additional aspect, at least in the beginning, is the different running style. With the bobsled start, you never get to run upright; and you keep pushing the sled, so you don't have the arm movement.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby 18.99s » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:25 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Being fast in track is all about power-to-weight ratio, while it would seem that the bobsled is about sheer power. It reminds of climbing vs time trialing in the sport of cycling.

There is another element to it: plain old bodyweight.

There is a maximum weight limit for the combination of the bobsledders and the sled. Heavier bobsledders means they can use a lighter sled for the same total weight, so it's easier to push.

Of course, beyond a certain point the athlete's own weight will slow them down, and they still have to fit within the overall weight limit, so you won't see many 300-pounders at the Olympic level.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:36 am

18.99s wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Being fast in track is all about power-to-weight ratio, while it would seem that the bobsled is about sheer power. It reminds of climbing vs time trialing in the sport of cycling.

There is another element to it: plain old bodyweight.

There is a maximum weight limit for the combination of the bobsledders and the sled. Heavier bobsledders means they can use a lighter sled for the same total weight, so it's easier to push.

Of course, beyond a certain point the athlete's own weight will slow them down, and they still have to fit within the overall weight limit, so you won't see many 300-pounders at the Olympic level.

Assuming the bobsledders are equally lean, I would think that you would go for the heaviest bobsledders you find that will get you under the weight limit and fit in the sled, because the heavier bobsledders will produce more power. Is there a limit to how light the sled can be like there is for how light the bike can be in cycling?
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby 18.99s » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:38 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Assuming the bobsledders are equally lean, I would think that you would go for the heaviest bobsledders you find that will get you under the weight limit and fit in the sled, because the heavier bobsledders will produce more power. Is there a limit to how light the sled can be like there is for how light the bike can be in cycling?

Yes, there is a minimum weight for an empty sled as well as a maximum for an occupied sled.

According to http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/outd ... bsled2.htm :
Two-man: minimum 384 pounds (170 kilograms) when empty, maximum 860 pounds (390 kilograms) with crew and equipment.

Two-woman: minimum 284 pounds (129 kilograms) when empty, maximum 750 pounds (340 kilograms) with crew and equipment

Four-man: minimum 463 pounds (210 kilograms) when empty, maximum 1,389 pounds (630 kilograms) with crew and equipment
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby leoesharkey » Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:35 pm

Shotputters are very strong, and fast too....
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:12 pm

leoesharkey wrote:Shotputters are very strong, and fast too....


Shot putters are quick (and nimble for their size) but not necessarily fast. Two different things.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby decafan » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:12 pm

26mi235 wrote:
leoesharkey wrote:Shotputters are very strong, and fast too....


Shot putters are quick (and nimble for their size) but not necessarily fast. Two different things.


Elite shot putters have similar fast twitch muscle make-up as elite sprinters. You would be shocked at how fast they are for 30m.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby polevaultpower » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:57 pm

I've seen Adam Nelson do the 40y dash, it was pretty impressive. He was fast!
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:43 pm

Some shot putters are fast by ordinary standards, and a few by higher standards. However, that does not mean the shot putters, in general, are fast.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby cladthin » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:40 am

It depends upon what one's view of speed is. A world class shotputter or top olympic weightlifter can out accelerate pretty much any athlete (including sprinters) for short distances out to 20m-25m or possibly a bit further. Of course this varies based upon which individuals are being tested or compared. These athletes are the best at acceleration.

Certainly, the sprinter will possess superior maximum velocity to the shot putter. Some shot putters accelerate very well though their strength advantage starts to fall off as they go out to longer sprint distances such as 30m, 35m and so on as their bodyweight now turns into a disadvantage. In a short acceleration, the bodyweight contributes a large degree to their higher strength levels and thus their ability to run very short sprints as fast or faster than any athletes in the world.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:29 am

cladthin wrote:It depends upon what one's view of speed is. A world class shotputter or top olympic weightlifter can out accelerate pretty much any athlete (including sprinters) for short distances out to 20m-25m or possibly a bit further. Of course this varies based upon which individuals are being tested or compared. These athletes are the best at acceleration.

Certainly, the sprinter will possess superior maximum velocity to the shot putter. Some shot putters accelerate very well though their strength advantage starts to fall off as they go out to longer sprint distances such as 30m, 35m and so on as their bodyweight now turns into a disadvantage. In a short acceleration, the bodyweight contributes a large degree to their higher strength levels and thus their ability to run very short sprints as fast or faster than any athletes in the world.

I would also think that shot putters, while not being able to compete in the 100 at the elite level, would have a lot better top end if they did all the running that sprinters do, in particular the over-distance training.

Based on the info that 18.99 provided above, the theoretical average maximum weight for bobsledders and their equipment are:

    2-man: 238 pounds
    2-woman: 233 pounds
    4-man: 231.5 pounds
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby j-a-m » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:10 am

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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby marknhj » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:41 am

A handful of my athlete friends made GB Olympic bobsled teams. They were decathletes who were not quite world class in T&F, but still fast and big.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby GDAWG » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:24 pm

Nice to see more African Americans try to make the Winter Olympics squad. Shani Davis should not be the only one.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby guru » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:34 pm

Funny how Aja Evans kicks everyone's ass, and breaks the Lake Placid track push record, but Jones is the one who gets the headlines.

Seems we've been down this road before...
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby lonewolf » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:42 pm

The girl can't help it.... not should she.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:48 pm

guru wrote:Funny how Aja Evans kicks everyone's ass, and breaks the Lake Placid track push record, but Jones is the one who gets the headlines.

Seems we've been down this road before...

She ran her way onto the Olympic team this year, she wasn't selected for it. How goes the bobsled selection process? Is it done by guys in smoked-filled rooms?
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby guru » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:48 pm

lonewolf wrote:The girl can't help it.... not should she.



I'm not blaming her, but the media continues to befuddle me on this fascination with her.



By the way, here's some info on Evans, since you're not likely to get it anywhere else.

http://www.fightingillini.com/sports/w- ... aja00.html


And her twitter page

https://twitter.com/AjaLEvans


Evans in action

http://instagram.com/p/RNwIuymXav/
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby guru » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:53 pm

jazzcyclist wrote: How goes the bobsled selection process? Is it done by guys in smoked-filled rooms?



Six brakemen made the team. Jones was 6th, 4th among the track athletes. She probably deserved to make the cut, I just don't get the media fascination with making her a headline story. If anything Evans, a shotputter, destroying everyone is the big story(if not totally unexpected, at least by me)
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:59 pm

guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote: How goes the bobsled selection process? Is it done by guys in smoked-filled rooms?



Six brakemen made the team. Jones was 6th, 4th among the track athletes. She probably deserved to make the cut, I just don't get the media fascination with making her a headline story. If anything Evans, a shotputter, destroying everyone is the big story(if not totally unexpected, at least by me)

So it was based strictly on time? Is your beef mainly with Lolo sucking all the oxygen out of the media room so to speak?
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby lonewolf » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:05 pm

guru wrote:
lonewolf wrote:The girl can't help it.... not should she.



I'm not blaming her, but the media continues to befuddle me on this fascination with her./


People are (mostly) either pro or con Lolo... if you are one of the "undecided" still befuddled by her popularity/notoriety, that befuddles me.. :)
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby guru » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:09 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:So it was based strictly on time?


It doesnt look like it. Jones was 7th at the push championships, beaten soundly by Fountain.

Order Name Heat I Heat II Optional Heat III TOTAL

1 Aja Evans 4.84 4.81 9.65
2 Katie Eberling 4.88 4.90 9.78
3 Cherrelle Garrett 5.02 4.97 9.99
4 Hyleas Fountain 5.00 5.01 10.01
5 Tianna Madison 5.03 5.01 10.04
6 Emily Azevedo 5.01 5.03 10.04
7 LoLo Jones 5.04 5.07 10.11





And doesn't look like she even got a ride in the team championships last weekend.

1. Jamie Greubel and Aja Evans 1:55.94 (57.56, 58.38);
2. Jazmine Fenlator and Cherrelle Garrett 1:55.99 (57.67, 58.32);
3. Katelyn Kelly and Tracey Stewart 1:59.49 (59.68, 59.81);
4. Megan Hill and Maureen Ajoka 1:59.50 (59.26, 1:00.24)
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby preston » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:42 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
guru wrote:Funny how Aja Evans kicks everyone's ass, and breaks the Lake Placid track push record, but Jones is the one who gets the headlines.

Seems we've been down this road before...

She ran her way onto the Olympic team this year, she wasn't selected for it. How goes the bobsled selection process? Is it done by guys in smoked-filled rooms?

If Bianca Knight can be SELECTED to run on the USA 4x1 then I have no problem with Lolo being able to get a CHANCE to push at the Olympics in 2 years. Go Lolo!
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby guru » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:45 pm

preston wrote:If Bianca Knight can be SELECTED to run on the USA 4x1 then I have no problem with Lolo being able to get a CHANCE to push at the Olympics in 2 years.



Valid point. But if I'm Hyleas Fountain, I'm pretty pissed right now...
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:51 pm

guru wrote:
preston wrote:If Bianca Knight can be SELECTED to run on the USA 4x1 then I have no problem with Lolo being able to get a CHANCE to push at the Olympics in 2 years.



Valid point. But if I'm Hyleas Fountain, I'm pretty pissed right now...

I'm surprised that she made it. Like you, I assumed that they would be looking for pushers heavier than Lolo.I wonder how someone like Ginnie Powell would have done? And though she's not American, I'll bet Blessing Okagbare would have tested well. It doesn't say much for the depth of bobsledding that track athletes can make the team on a whim.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby decafan » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:52 pm

guru wrote:
preston wrote:If Bianca Knight can be SELECTED to run on the USA 4x1 then I have no problem with Lolo being able to get a CHANCE to push at the Olympics in 2 years.



Valid point. But if I'm Hyleas Fountain, I'm pretty pissed right now...


There is a WHOLE lot more to bobsledding than the single-person push championships. Pushing with a driver and going down a mile of ice is very different. Drivers also have input. There are many other variables coaches consider. Rookies improve at different rates. My sources tell me Lolo was very professional and highly motivated throughout this process. She was there to make this team.

Guru, stop looking for reasons not to like Lolo. She deserved her spot.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby guru » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:54 pm

decafan wrote:
There is a WHOLE lot more to bobsledding than the single-person push championships. Pushing with a driver and going down a mile of ice is very different. Drivers also have input. There are many other variables coaches consider. Rookies improve at different rates. My sources tell me Lolo was very professional and highly motivated throughout this process. She was there to make this team.

Guru, stop looking for reasons not to like Lolo. She deserved her spot.



You're saying Fountain sucked and deserved to passed over for Jones. Fair enough.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby guru » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:56 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:I'm surprised that she made it. Like you, I assumed that they would be looking for pushers heavier than Lolo.I wonder how someone like Ginnie Powell would have done? And though she's not American, I'll bet Blessing Okagbare would have tested well. It doesn't say much for the depth of bobsledding that track athletes can make the team on a whim.



I think that's a fair and accurate assessment.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:57 pm

Does anyone know of a forum where winter sports fanatics discuss bobsledding? I'd like to hear what knowledgeable people have to say.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby decafan » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:17 pm

guru wrote:


You're saying Fountain sucked and deserved to passed over for Jones. Fair enough.


Are you a child? Fountain was terrific as well. Just not quite as good as Lolo.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby guru » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:23 pm

decafan wrote:
guru wrote:


You're saying Fountain sucked and deserved to passed over for Jones. Fair enough.


Are you a child? Fountain was terrific as well. Just not quite as good as Lolo.



Well I'll tell you what. You don't infer intent in my comments here, and I won't do it to yours. How's that sound?

And for the record - I said on this very forum at 7:43 PM I thought Jones probably deserved the spot(though Fountain has every reason to feel slighted).
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby decafan » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:45 pm

guru wrote:
decafan wrote:
guru wrote:


You're saying Fountain sucked and deserved to passed over for Jones. Fair enough.


Are you a child? Fountain was terrific as well. Just not quite as good as Lolo.



Well I'll tell you what. You don't infer intent in my comments here, and I won't do it to yours. How's that sound?

And for the record - I said on this very forum at 7:43 PM I thought Jones probably deserved the spot(though Fountain has every reason to feel slighted).


That sounds good. Just so I am clear: You are NOT a Lolo hater. You are pro-Lolo. You agree that you can't legislate media interest no matter how badly you wish you could. You agree that Lolo deserved to be named to the national team. If you were Ms. Fountain you would feel slighted (even though nobody involved in the process- including the athletes, were surprised by this decision). Got it.

I appreciate you clearing that up and I apologize for inferring you hate Lolo just because the media- which she has no control over, seems to like writing about her.

Friends???
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby guru » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:31 am

Make no mistake about it - the only track athlete who's going to wind up in a sled at a major championship is Evans, at least from this group. But if Jones brings more publicity to the sport(what is it Oscar Wilde said?), then she's fulfilled her role.

But it sure would be nice if the media(Bonnie Ford I'm looking at you) could at least mention the name of the woman who absolutely destroyed the field, and the track record.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby Pego » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:41 am

guru wrote:I said on this very forum at 7:43 PM I thought Jones probably deserved the spot


Why? Just wondering.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby guru » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:34 pm

Pego wrote:
guru wrote:I said on this very forum at 7:43 PM I thought Jones probably deserved the spot


Why? Just wondering.



Strictly by the numbers, of course she didn't deserve it. But when I made the comment my feeling was USA Bobsled must have seen something in her performance that caused them to take Jones over Fountain for that last brakeman slot.

The cynic in me would say it was because Jones brings more pub than Fountain, but surely that had nothing to do with it...
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:37 pm

guru wrote:
Pego wrote:
guru wrote:I said on this very forum at 7:43 PM I thought Jones probably deserved the spot


Why? Just wondering.



Strictly by the numbers, of course she didn't deserve it. But when I made the comment my feeling was USA Bobsled must have seen something in her performance that caused them to take Jones over Fountain for that last brakeman slot.

The cynic in me would say it was because Jones brings more pub than Fountain, but surely that had nothing to do with it...

It's my understanding that only three of the six pushers will get to compete in the Olympics. If that's the case, perhaps they wanted to bring publicity to the sport. The NFAA was ecstatic when Geena Davis made it to the semifinals of the Olympic Archery Trials for just this reason, and there no doubt that NBC would have made her one of the faces of the Olympics if she had somehow made the team.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/olympi ... rchery_ap/
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby James Fields » Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:41 pm

Update: Headline now says Lolo on USA Olympic Bobsled Team:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1384355-lolo-jones-picked-for-us-olympic-bobsled-team
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby guru » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:32 pm

James Fields wrote:Update: Headline now says Lolo on USA Olympic Bobsled Team



No, she's not on the Olympic team. She's on the US Bobsled roster, with an opportunity to try to make the 2014 team. But as we have discussed here since the announcement was made a few days ago, she's not very likely to make the final two or three brakemen who actually go to Sochi.
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Re: Fountain To Try Bobsled

Postby decafan » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:38 pm

James Fields wrote:Update: Headline now says Lolo on USA Olympic Bobsled Team:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1384355-lolo-jones-picked-for-us-olympic-bobsled-team


I have seen the same thing in a few publications. Totally incorrect. The 2014 Sochi Winter Olympic Bobsled Team will most likely be named in January of 2014. Possibly December of 2013.

Guru is full of it. She has a real chance to make that team. As does Tianna. Aja is a lock unless she bails out or gets hurt. Three sleds, three drivers, three breakmen.
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