Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?


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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby DJG » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:51 am

cladthin wrote:I think Johnson needed more of a dive since he was a relatively short hurdler. I have wondered if Richardson really benefits from the degree of head action/dive he gets especially at his height though I don't know what his leg length is relative to his height. Merritt as mentioned above has pretty much no head action. Another thing that differentiates JR and AR is though they both come over and across with the lead arm more than than most if not all of their contemporaries, is that JR crosses the mid-line to a greater degree which is typically not advised-potentially causing too much torque, twisting that should show up in the flight and/or td. These taller guys and especially the guys with long legs likely don't benefit as much from the dive-Robles is another who kept his head steady throughout races.


In the video of the 12.80 race on runblog? the view from behind shows Richardson twist on landing
after hurdle 5 or 6 and lose ground.
Aries didn't hit a hurdle that I can see and ran a "perfect race" as he said in the post-race interview.
Fast track and JR in the next lane and 0.3 wind at his back didn't hurt either.
Thanks all for your analysis and time.

As for the toe-drag, if it comes from full extension of the front-power-drive-leg and the low-heel recovery, then a little drag of the tip of the shoe could be a positive sign that the start was executed well. With that I shuffle off to ... clean the yard.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby cladthin » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:05 pm

DJG wrote:
cladthin wrote:I think Johnson needed more of a dive since he was a relatively short hurdler. I have wondered if Richardson really benefits from the degree of head action/dive he gets especially at his height though I don't know what his leg length is relative to his height. Merritt as mentioned above has pretty much no head action. Another thing that differentiates JR and AR is though they both come over and across with the lead arm more than than most if not all of their contemporaries, is that JR crosses the mid-line to a greater degree which is typically not advised-potentially causing too much torque, twisting that should show up in the flight and/or td. These taller guys and especially the guys with long legs likely don't benefit as much from the dive-Robles is another who kept his head steady throughout races.


In the video of the 12.80 race on runblog? the view from behind shows Richardson twist on landing
after hurdle 5 or 6 and lose ground.
Aries didn't hit a hurdle that I can see and ran a "perfect race" as he said in the post-race interview.
Fast track and JR in the next lane and 0.3 wind at his back didn't hurt either.
Thanks all for your analysis and time.

As for the toe-drag, if it comes from full extension of the front-power-drive-leg and the low-heel recovery, then a little drag of the tip of the shoe could be a positive sign that the start was executed well. With that I shuffle off to ... clean the yard.



DJG, thanks for the information on JR. I would like to see a different view of that race that shows the twisting you are referring to. Do you know the full address/link for that alternate view?

The Universal Sport video for the Monaco 110mh is one of the best I've ever seen especially the slow-motion lateral view.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby DJG » Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:12 am

cladthin wrote:
DJG wrote:
cladthin wrote:I think Johnson needed more of a dive since he was a relatively short hurdler. I have wondered if Richardson really benefits from the degree of head action/dive he gets especially at his height though I don't know what his leg length is relative to his height. Merritt as mentioned above has pretty much no head action. Another thing that differentiates JR and AR is though they both come over and across with the lead arm more than than most if not all of their contemporaries, is that JR crosses the mid-line to a greater degree which is typically not advised-potentially causing too much torque, twisting that should show up in the flight and/or td. These taller guys and especially the guys with long legs likely don't benefit as much from the dive-Robles is another who kept his head steady throughout races.


In the video of the 12.80 race on runblog? the view from behind shows Richardson twist on landing
after hurdle 5 or 6 and lose ground.
Aries didn't hit a hurdle that I can see and ran a "perfect race" as he said in the post-race interview.
Fast track and JR in the next lane and 0.3 wind at his back didn't hurt either.
Thanks all for your analysis and time.

As for the toe-drag, if it comes from full extension of the front-power-drive-leg and the low-heel recovery, then a little drag of the tip of the shoe could be a positive sign that the start was executed well. With that I shuffle off to ... clean the yard.



DJG, thanks for the information on JR. I would like to see a different view of that race that shows the twisting you are referring to. Do you know the full address/link for that alternate view?

The Universal Sport video for the Monaco 110mh is one of the best I've ever seen especially the slow-motion lateral view.


http://www.letsrun.com/2012/merritt-wor ... d-0907.php

Is also from Universal Sport, Cladthin. Do you see JR drifting? And it was the 4th hurdle that
gave him trouble.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby cladthin » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:18 am

DJG wrote:
cladthin wrote:
DJG wrote:
cladthin wrote:I think Johnson needed more of a dive since he was a relatively short hurdler. I have wondered if Richardson really benefits from the degree of head action/dive he gets especially at his height though I don't know what his leg length is relative to his height. Merritt as mentioned above has pretty much no head action. Another thing that differentiates JR and AR is though they both come over and across with the lead arm more than than most if not all of their contemporaries, is that JR crosses the mid-line to a greater degree which is typically not advised-potentially causing too much torque, twisting that should show up in the flight and/or td. These taller guys and especially the guys with long legs likely don't benefit as much from the dive-Robles is another who kept his head steady throughout races.


In the video of the 12.80 race on runblog? the view from behind shows Richardson twist on landing
after hurdle 5 or 6 and lose ground.
Aries didn't hit a hurdle that I can see and ran a "perfect race" as he said in the post-race interview.
Fast track and JR in the next lane and 0.3 wind at his back didn't hurt either.
Thanks all for your analysis and time.

As for the toe-drag, if it comes from full extension of the front-power-drive-leg and the low-heel recovery, then a little drag of the tip of the shoe could be a positive sign that the start was executed well. With that I shuffle off to ... clean the yard.



DJG, thanks for the information on JR. I would like to see a different view of that race that shows the twisting you are referring to. Do you know the full address/link for that alternate view?

The Universal Sport video for the Monaco 110mh is one of the best I've ever seen especially the slow-motion lateral view.


http://www.letsrun.com/2012/merritt-wor ... d-0907.php

Is also from Universal Sport, Cladthin. Do you see JR drifting? And it was the 4th hurdle that
gave him trouble.


DJG, thanks. I had looked at that video before but I did not recall seeing that rear view. You can definitely see JR weaving at points in his race H4 and others/some of the landings do look off balance and I have to believe that lead arm does contribute somewhat to this. Whereas AM probably runs close to 110m linearly (save the vertical displacement) Richardson probably runs an extra meter or so over the distance with all of the extra torque he gets. AM, to his credit, is pretty much always over the center or just slightly off center of the barrier in his flight. It does look like JR still has the potential to shave some time of his pr and this from a guy who ran two legal sub 13s this year, I think!
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby Lord_Zanus » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:51 am

Marlow wrote:
Lord_Zanus wrote:
Marlow wrote:
mal wrote:rubbish.

You're being too nice. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the biomechanics of the start. Some high jumpers and triple jumpers get some toe-drag also, but it's not an advantage; it's simply poor mechanics.


Actually you're both showing that basic human flaw of dismissing something because you dont understand it. . . .proper acceleration mechanics from the blocks will and SHOULD have lower heal recovery and the symptom of these mechanics will on occasion result in a toe dragging. Toe dragging doesnt lead to better mechanics.....better mechanics lead to toe dragging....

??!! There was no dismissal and there was certainly no misunderstanding. Toe-dragging is neither functional nor desired. Perfect mechanics will not result in toe-dragging. 'Good' mechanics might.


I think in many ways you're still assuming that i'm advocating that toes be purposely dragged. This should have been clear when I said that dragging is a symptom and not the source of good mechanics as the article would suggest. It's extremely likely and probably that the athletes who drag are simply following cues learned in practice. Which in most cases, if done often enough will leave residual effects in the race. So in the case of Asafa Powell for example, being able to achieve the departure angles that he does, it's MORE likely that his toe will drag on occasion if he's exhibiting efficient acceleration mechanics. Doesn't mean that it's desired or praised.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby Lord_Zanus » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:57 am

toyracer wrote:
preston wrote:*Powell has mostly corrected his footdrag but seems to have developed something of a "speedskater" action from the blocks.


I noticed this happening in '09 after his ankle injury and it seems to have stayed with him.


He lost quite a bit of strength as a result of the injury and is likely still suffering from it. If you noticed, he's also changed his block setting as well, but that changed happened this season. I'm not sure if this is to compensate for the something or if it's simply a matter of tweaking.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby DJG » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:13 pm

cladthin wrote:
DJG, thanks. I had looked at that video before but I did not recall seeing that rear view. You can definitely see JR weaving at points in his race H4 and others/some of the landings do look off balance and I have to believe that lead arm does contribute somewhat to this. Whereas AM probably runs close to 110m linearly (save the vertical displacement) Richardson probably runs an extra meter or so over the distance with all of the extra torque he gets. AM, to his credit, is pretty much always over the center or just slightly off center of the barrier in his flight. It does look like JR still has the potential to shave some time of his pr and this from a guy who ran two legal sub 13s this year, I think!


One other point on JR's running form - he seems to be leaning too much, especially noticeable from the last hurdle to the finish, but also between hurdles. Maybe needs to straiten up abit more. The hair do may also be a factor, but I don't see any makeovers anytime soon.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby cladthin » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:22 pm

DJG wrote:
cladthin wrote:
DJG, thanks. I had looked at that video before but I did not recall seeing that rear view. You can definitely see JR weaving at points in his race H4 and others/some of the landings do look off balance and I have to believe that lead arm does contribute somewhat to this. Whereas AM probably runs close to 110m linearly (save the vertical displacement) Richardson probably runs an extra meter or so over the distance with all of the extra torque he gets. AM, to his credit, is pretty much always over the center or just slightly off center of the barrier in his flight. It does look like JR still has the potential to shave some time of his pr and this from a guy who ran two legal sub 13s this year, I think!


One other point on JR's running form - he seems to be leaning too much, especially noticeable from the last hurdle to the finish, but also between hurdles. Maybe needs to straiten up abit more. The hair do may also be a factor, but I don't see any makeovers anytime soon.


Yeah, I think that head drop as part of his dive leads to excessive lean especially since he's nearly 6'3" it's probably not necessary. Maybe if he kept his head still, more upright in takeoff and flight it would eliminate this.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby DJG » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:44 am

cladthin wrote:
DJG wrote:
cladthin wrote:
DJG, thanks. I had looked at that video before but I did not recall seeing that rear view. You can definitely see JR weaving at points in his race H4 and others/some of the landings do look off balance and I have to believe that lead arm does contribute somewhat to this. Whereas AM probably runs close to 110m linearly (save the vertical displacement) Richardson probably runs an extra meter or so over the distance with all of the extra torque he gets. AM, to his credit, is pretty much always over the center or just slightly off center of the barrier in his flight. It does look like JR still has the potential to shave some time of his pr and this from a guy who ran two legal sub 13s this year, I think!


One other point on JR's running form - he seems to be leaning too much, especially noticeable from the last hurdle to the finish, but also between hurdles. Maybe needs to straiten up abit more. The hair do may also be a factor, but I don't see any makeovers anytime soon.


Yeah, I think that head drop as part of his dive leads to excessive lean especially since he's nearly 6'3" it's probably not necessary. Maybe if he kept his head still, more upright in takeoff and flight it would eliminate this.


Q.) What would you (How) figure to be his pure 100 m time based on his 12.80 for 110m w/10 hurdles?
Q.) Is there any data that shows the speed of the hurdler for the three plus meters airborne over the hurdle that shows faster or slower speed during that flight phase?

I'm guessing that 12.80- .9 for the extra 10m - 2.0 for the 10 hurdles = 9.9 to 10.0 for his 100 time.

Is there an accepted conversion for estimating 100 time from 110 hurdle time?
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:23 am

DJG wrote: What would you (How) figure to be his pure 100 m time based on his 12.80 for 110m w/10 hurdles? Is there an accepted conversion for estimating 100 time from 110 hurdle time?

Unknowable. There are too many variables. I would GUESS that a sub-13 hurdler would need at least 10.30 speed (if properly trained for the 100). I'd further guess that Aries could have run 10.40 the day he ran 12.80, but that with a month's sprint-specific training he could get that down to 10.20. Focusing ONLY on the 100 might get that all the way down to 10.00. All of these guesses are substantiated by absolutely nothing!
Aries is ultra-hyper-super-quick, that's for sure, as quick as ANY sprinter out there (Bolt included), but how that translates into top-end speed is problematic.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby cladthin » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:34 pm

Marlow wrote:
DJG wrote: What would you (How) figure to be his pure 100 m time based on his 12.80 for 110m w/10 hurdles? Is there an accepted conversion for estimating 100 time from 110 hurdle time?

Unknowable. There are too many variables. I would GUESS that a sub-13 hurdler would need at least 10.30 speed (if properly trained for the 100). I'd further guess that Aries could have run 10.40 the day he ran 12.80, but that with a month's sprint-specific training he could get that down to 10.20. Focusing ONLY on the 100 might get that all the way down to 10.00. All of these guesses are substantiated by absolutely nothing!
Aries is ultra-hyper-super-quick, that's for sure, as quick as ANY sprinter out there (Bolt included), but how that translates into top-end speed is problematic.


I agree, too many variables to make any equation or conversion (I don't know of any actually) reliable except for the outside possibility of trying to predict an individual's times based upon previous data of the relationship between the highs and the flat for that person. Because the spacings so limit the use of max. velocity it's very difficult to say what a guy would run on the flat. Didn't Oliver guess he's (D.O. that is) closer to 10.50? I believe AM's 7 stride approach to H1 would probably much more similar to the stride lengths he would use in a 60 or 100m flat (than a 8 stride approach would) if he were to run one though he certainly would not be "up" so soon with no hurdle to clear. It seems that some high hurdlers can exhibit such high frequency and their stride lengths and leg lengths seem to match up well with the built in restrictions of the hurdle spacing yet might not be as fast on the flat as one might predict though that could be, in part, because they only hurdle and rarely if ever allow their strides to "open up".

Some coaches don't want their high hurdlers doing any speed changes/ins-outs or fly-ins for fear of disrupting their hurdle rhythm and stride length/pattern. I have always felt the need to do at least some volume of flat work work in late GPP into SPP and continue flat sprint work even if only in the form of some 30-40m accelerations throughout the year though the emphasis certainly moves to a greater volume of actual sprint hurdling. Here's a good interview with AM's coach Andreas Behm outlining much of the detailed philosophy of the training program.

http://www.elitetrack.com/blogs/details/7385/
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby Marlow » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:30 am

cladthin wrote:http://www.elitetrack.com/blogs/details/7385/

Thanks for the link - I love that stuff!

A few excerpts:
The other major technical component [besides the 7-step approach] we refined was his hurdle clearance. We worked on establishing consistent takeoff distances, an aggressive takeoff angle, closing down into and over the hurdle as well as continuously moving his limbs over the top of the hurdle. All this resulted in him clearing the hurdle a lot lower and more fluidly than he used to.

In our system acceleration and speed development lay the foundation for everything we do. I would much rather manipulate variables such as training volume and/or density before I reduce training intensity.

The younger the training age of the athlete, the more important hurdle drills are for developmental purposes. We use drills with these athletes to introduce postures and movement concepts,

We rarely, if ever hurdle at regular hurdle height and spacing. In an effort to establish fast hurdle rhythms between the hurdles we lower and discount the hurdles. The only hurdle which remains fairly in place is the first hurdle, all others we move in. Early in the year we tend to work over 4-6 hurdles with the focus being on a dynamic approach and optimal hurdling speed/rhythm,

I have put an added emphasis on such lifts as quarter squats, low box step ups and explosive movements from shallow flexion.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby fourjz » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:57 am

So I take it we are done on the "toe drag" issue,and moved on to hurdle training theory ? :wink:
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby cladthin » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:07 am

Marlow wrote:
cladthin wrote:http://www.elitetrack.com/blogs/details/7385/

Thanks for the link - I love that stuff!

A few excerpts:
The other major technical component [besides the 7-step approach] we refined was his hurdle clearance. We worked on establishing consistent takeoff distances, an aggressive takeoff angle, closing down into and over the hurdle as well as continuously moving his limbs over the top of the hurdle. All this resulted in him clearing the hurdle a lot lower and more fluidly than he used to.

In our system acceleration and speed development lay the foundation for everything we do. I would much rather manipulate variables such as training volume and/or density before I reduce training intensity.

The younger the training age of the athlete, the more important hurdle drills are for developmental purposes. We use drills with these athletes to introduce postures and movement concepts,

We rarely, if ever hurdle at regular hurdle height and spacing. In an effort to establish fast hurdle rhythms between the hurdles we lower and discount the hurdles. The only hurdle which remains fairly in place is the first hurdle, all others we move in. Early in the year we tend to work over 4-6 hurdles with the focus being on a dynamic approach and optimal hurdling speed/rhythm,

I have put an added emphasis on such lifts as quarter squats, low box step ups and explosive movements from shallow flexion.


Yeah, no problem. It's not often a coach goes into such detail short of releasing a dvd, book or presenting at a clinic/seminar. I think Behm became Merritt's full time coach back in 2009 (at least based upon what I think I saw or read on flotrack) but I imagine(?) Vince Anderson has remained in an advisory role since that's who I believe Merritt moved to College Station to work with, originally.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby cladthin » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:10 am

fourjz wrote:So I take it we are done on the "toe drag" issue,and moved on to hurdle training theory ? :wink:


Yes, it's interesting how the theme of the thread sort of changed gears.
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby DJG » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:25 am

cladthin wrote:
fourjz wrote:So I take it we are done on the "toe drag" issue,and moved on to hurdle training theory ? :wink:


Yes, it's interesting how the theme of the thread sort of changed gears.


Tie-in: Is there a danger that a toe-dragging start will carry over to the toe-up-and-out clearing
position for clearing the hurdle?

Now this thread is back on track. :P
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby Marlow » Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:44 pm

DJG wrote:Now this thread is back on track. :P

Well, I certainly know what happens when I drag my toe over the hurdle - face-plant!
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Re: Olympic Sprinters why should i drag my toe?

Postby fourjz » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:51 pm

DJG wrote:
cladthin wrote:
fourjz wrote:So I take it we are done on the "toe drag" issue,and moved on to hurdle training theory ? :wink:


Yes, it's interesting how the theme of the thread sort of changed gears.


Tie-in: Is there a danger that a toe-dragging start will carry over to the toe-up-and-out clearing
position for clearing the hurdle?

Now this thread is back on track. :P

Ha Ha ! Thank you.ha Ha! :lol:
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