T&F Athletes To Unionize


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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:45 am

guru wrote:
ExCoastRanger wrote:But let the athletes try to bring in their own sponsors and money into the sport and see what happens. There are plenty out there who would take, and may be able to earn, enough to at least survive in the sport longer if not achieve that comfortable living standard.



Exactly. Let the market decide what each athlete can earn, not the restrictive policies of the "governing" body.

And if the IAAF/IOC doesn't want to change things for fear of upsetting exclusive sponsors, then it's time for them to start passing the hundreds of millions of dollars they bring in down to the athletes, perhaps in the form of salaries.


I think it is pretty weird to combine the IAAF and the IOC together. The idea that the IAAF is sitting on hundreds of millions seems pretty idiotic. As mentioned elsewhere I was in the IAAF headquarters back in the 'glory' days of Primo when it was in London. And if they had that one percent of that kind of cash then, they sure hid it well. 3 Hans Crescent was hardly palatial.

Of course the IOC is another thing. But if the track people think they can budge anything out of those folks they are whistling Dixie.

And besides this talk of let the market decides is a bit contrary to the oodles folks like Bolt are making now.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby gh » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:51 am

The IAAF has some decidedly "palatial" real estate in Monaco (is there any other kind there?).

Having said that, it should be noted that all of the positions of power in the IAAF (President, Council, etc.) come sans salary. Although the "IAAF Family" is clearly treated well whilst on the road.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby guru » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:54 am

Conor Dary wrote: The idea that the IAAF is sitting on hundreds of millions seems pretty idiotic.



The IAAF's cut from London alone is expected to be in the $35-$40 million range(they received $28 million from the Beijing Games). Their annual revenue is well north of $100 million

Do your research before you start calling people idiots. I damn sure do before I post.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:29 am

guru wrote:
Conor Dary wrote: The idea that the IAAF is sitting on hundreds of millions seems pretty idiotic.



The IAAF's cut from London alone is expected to be in the $35-$40 million range(they received $28 million from the Beijing Games). Their annual revenue is well north of $100 million

Do your research before you start calling people idiots. I damn sure do before I post.


100 million? I thought it would be more than that. How much are they sitting on? Lots of sports have huge revenue and still lose money.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/sport ... wanted=all

Besides as I said linking the IOC and IAAF is foolish. The big bucks and the coattails are in the Olympics and the IOC.

By the way, if you make an argument and have some evidence it is normal to post where you got it.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:32 am

gh wrote:The IAAF has some decidedly "palatial" real estate in Monaco (is there any other kind there?).

Having said that, it should be noted that all of the positions of power in the IAAF (President, Council, etc.) come sans salary. Although the "IAAF Family" is clearly treated well whilst on the road.


If I remember Primo got tired of the UK press....so off to Monaco.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby gh » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:33 am

Revenue numbers mean nothing without the corresponding expense numbers.

But I certainly won't be holding my breath waiting to see the IAAF's books!
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby gh » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:34 am

Conor Dary wrote:
gh wrote:The IAAF has some decidedly "palatial" real estate in Monaco (is there any other kind there?).

Having said that, it should be noted that all of the positions of power in the IAAF (President, Council, etc.) come sans salary. Although the "IAAF Family" is clearly treated well whilst on the road.


If I remember Primo got tired of the UK press....so off to Monaco.


Press had nothing to do with it. Try Monaco's tax structure. (and also breaking up the British hegemony)
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby EPelle » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:40 am

ESPN wrote:(IAAF) receives $35.77 million from the 2012 London Games. That's up from the $29 million the IAAF received from the 2008 Beijing Games.

With the increased Olympic revenue, the IAAF expects its income through 2012 to be $204 million with expenditures of $203 million.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/trackandf ... id=5229874
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby guru » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:48 am

EPelle wrote:
ESPN wrote:(IAAF) receives $35.77 million from the 2012 London Games. That's up from the $29 million the IAAF received from the 2008 Beijing Games.

With the increased Olympic revenue, the IAAF expects its income through 2012 to be $204 million with expenditures of $203 million.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/trackandf ... id=5229874



Worth noting those numbers are from 2010, and since they're from the IAAF, you can bet they're long on the expenditure side, and short on revenue(even at $200 million!)
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby mump boy » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:56 am

gh wrote:
MJR wrote:....

GH- You're thinking Marketing in the in the Macroeconomics sense, not marketing in the microeconomics sense. This will not make T&F a big sport, but it will allow the industrious athletes & clubs the ability to fund themselves from local sources and have a greater ability to give back to those sponsors in exchange for funding. Its not about butting heads with meet directors, but making connections with regional companies that may treat the athlete with enough celebrity to fund their training in exchange for PR work, etc.


Sorry, color me a cynic, but looking at the TFAA roster and the big-namers who are signing on, I can't imagine any of them thinking about the sport at the club level. Nor do I think that "funding at the local level" is remotely on the agenda. This remains, I fear, about the big/almost-big names being able to increase their earnings, not some grand social plan by which every hopeful gets a piece of some perhaps-not-there pie. This is the problem I have with the whole concept.


100% agree

this whole "we demand change' thing had NOTHING to do with local sponsors being given the change to support local athletes, It was ALL about Nike not having the Olympic contract.

Do you honestly think Sanya etc is going to go on strike so a race walker can get sponsored by her local pizza place ?
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby j-a-m » Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:18 am

Conor Dary wrote:Besides as I said linking the IOC and IAAF is foolish.

No; linking IOC and IAAF does make sense. This is more about power than it is about money, and the IAAF has the power it has precisely because it's the international federation recognized by the IOC.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby mump boy » Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:20 am

guru wrote:
ExCoastRanger wrote:But let the athletes try to bring in their own sponsors and money into the sport and see what happens. There are plenty out there who would take, and may be able to earn, enough to at least survive in the sport longer if not achieve that comfortable living standard.



Exactly. Let the market decide what each athlete can earn, not the restrictive policies of the "governing" body.

And if the IAAF/IOC doesn't want to change things for fear of upsetting exclusive sponsors, then it's time for them to start passing the hundreds of millions of dollars they bring in down to the athletes, perhaps in the form of salaries.



Why is there a perception that IAAF have loads of money ? didn't they nearly go bankrupt a few years ago ?

I'm sure there are some ways of distributing money more widely but the idea that there are 100's of IAAF bigwigs swanning about in the lap of luxury taking money from athletes is nonsense


The IAAF run Diamond League, World Champs, World Indoor Champs, WXC, World jars, World Youth, World Half Marathon, World Race Walking Champs, Combined Events Challenge most of which probably lose money.

They also have all kinds of scholarships, development and research programmes.

There are thousands of people involved in organising all these events, plus travel, accommodation etc etc etc

I don't understand where people think all this extra money that is being withheld from athletes actually comes from :?
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby guru » Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:28 am

mump boy wrote:I don't understand where people think all this extra money that is being withheld from athletes actually comes from :?


http://www.all-athletics.com/files/imag ... o_0022.JPG
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:31 am

j-a-m wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Besides as I said linking the IOC and IAAF is foolish.

No; linking IOC and IAAF does make sense. This is more about power than it is about money, and the IAAF has the power it has precisely because it's the international federation recognized by the IOC.


IAAF has the power to organize track and field. Which as we know is a bit limited. Meanwhile the IOC has the Olympic juggernaut. And saying the IOC recognizes the IAAF is sort of like Don Corleone giving his blessing and letting you live.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:36 am

guru wrote:
mump boy wrote:I don't understand where people think all this extra money that is being withheld from athletes actually comes from :?


http://www.all-athletics.com/files/imag ... o_0022.JPG


I thought it would be bigger than that. Doesn't look very fancy at all for an international organization. I am sure the IOC has toilets larger than that.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby br » Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:10 am

Conor Dary wrote:
guru wrote:
mump boy wrote:I don't understand where people think all this extra money that is being withheld from athletes actually comes from :?


http://www.all-athletics.com/files/imag ... o_0022.JPG


I thought it would be bigger than that. Doesn't look very fancy at all for an international organization. I am sure the IOC has toilets larger than that.


http://www2.iaaf.org/insideiaaf/Structu ... rters.html

Those are executive offices on Avenue St Michel. http://www.flotrack.org/article/13564-W ... -in-Monaco

The operational offices are located at 17, Rue Princesse Florestine near the Port of Monaco. http://goo.gl/maps/NbZSD
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby gh » Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:10 am

That's just one of three buildings, and it is nothing short of "ornate"; was Göring's digs in that part of the world during WWII.

<<In Monaco, the IAAF is housed in two buildings: the Villa Miraflores for the executive offices of the President, the General Secretary, and the General Secretariat, is located on the Avenue St Michel in the centre of Monte Carlo. The General Secretariat co-ordinates and advises on the activities of the Association.

The operational headquarters is situated at 17, Rue Princesse Florestine near the port.>>
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:27 am

So the IAAF is going to sell the Nazi house to pay 1:42 800 runners more?
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby tandfman » Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:29 am

br wrote:Those are executive offices on Avenue St Michel. http://www.flotrack.org/article/13564-W ... -in-Monaco

That article is dated July 19, 2013. :!:
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:38 am

tandfman wrote:
br wrote:Those are executive offices on Avenue St Michel. http://www.flotrack.org/article/13564-W ... -in-Monaco

That article is dated July 19, 2013. :!:


Besides that, where should the IAAF be? Any European capital is going to be costly. I suppose Symmonds thinks the IAAF should sell the Nazi house and move to Hoboken, NJ.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby bad hammy » Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:51 am

Conor Dary wrote:Besides that, where should the IAAF be?

Considering the penurious conditions most T&F athletes work and live under, setting the HQ in the most expensive city on earth is a major "Fuck You". Pretty much anyplace else would be better.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby gh » Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:08 pm

If being in Monaco makes for a better bottom line, then the IAAF is doing exactly what it should for the athletes, which is reduce its overhead.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:35 pm

bad hammy wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Besides that, where should the IAAF be?

Considering the penurious conditions most T&F athletes work and live under, setting the HQ in the most expensive city on earth is a major "Fuck You". Pretty much anyplace else would be better.


And it is not like they just moved there. More like 25 years ago.

And these penurious conditions? Come on. For most athletes it should be a part time job. No one's career is that long anyways. I have been around long enough to remember when it was impossible to make a living in track, to a period about 30 years ago when it was relatively pretty easy, thanks to AW and the road racing scene, to now where for some it is very lucrative and for most....
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby TN1965 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:07 am

Conor Dary wrote:
tandfman wrote:
br wrote:Those are executive offices on Avenue St Michel. http://www.flotrack.org/article/13564-W ... -in-Monaco

That article is dated July 19, 2013. :!:


Besides that, where should the IAAF be? Any European capital is going to be costly. I suppose Symmonds thinks the IAAF should sell the Nazi house and move to Hoboken, NJ.


No. It's Beaverton, OR. :wink:
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby gh » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:18 pm

Just posted to the front page. Link to a story in T&FN titled "Can The New Professional Athletes Union Make Headway?"

Here's the kicker: it ran in the February 2006 edition. Here's hoping the TFAA has a more productive lifespan than did the PAA.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby GDAWG » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:19 pm

How difficult is it going to be for TFAA to get many of the European Athletes on board? I don't think it's going to have much of an affect without many of the Euros joining.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby gibson » Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:06 am

gh wrote:Revenue numbers mean nothing without the corresponding expense numbers.

But I certainly won't be holding my breath waiting to see the IAAF's books!


all these guys just gotta go.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby gh » Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:08 am

Getting people to join is easy. The $64,000 question is what any of the joiners (including the original membership) are willing to do to achieve their goals. They can continue to try their case in the court of public opinion, although with the Olympics no longer in the headlines, Rule 140 stories aren't likely to gain a lot of traction. And appealing to the better side of the alpha-soup boys is well.... doomed?

Do they really have any other weapon other than the big stick that unions have always relied upon, which is a withholding of services? AKA strike?

This is where we discover who has the courage of their convictions.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:58 am

gibson wrote:
gh wrote:Revenue numbers mean nothing without the corresponding expense numbers.

But I certainly won't be holding my breath waiting to see the IAAF's books!


all these guys just gotta go.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/events ... /neb1.html


Primo is gone....too bad they don't have a picture of his gold suit.

Actually I kind of miss Primo...the years around 1996 was great for track. Zurich that year was awesome!
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby gibson » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:52 am

does anyone have a name list of the top 10 promoters in track and field?
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby gh » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:34 am

question too vague to answer

what does "top" mean?
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby tandfman » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:07 pm

For that matter, what does "promoters" mean? Are you limiting that to meet organizers/directors or are you including others who promote the sport, its events, its telecasts, its organizations, its athletes, etc.?
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby guru » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:36 pm

gh wrote:...appealing to the better side of the alpha-soup boys is well.... doomed?

Do they really have any other weapon other than the big stick that unions have always relied upon, which is a withholding of services? AKA strike?

This is where we discover who has the courage of their convictions.



I agree 100% here. Despite Khadevis Robinson's protestations that work stoppages are not what this is about, at some point they're going to have to back up their demands with action should those demands fall on deaf ears. And that's boycotting an IAAF meet like the world championships.

Must be music to Moscow's collective ears to hear the word boycott lol
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby tandfman » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:44 pm

guru wrote: Despite Khadevis Robinson's protestations that work stoppages are not what this is about, at some point they're going to have to back up their demands with action should those demands fall on deaf ears. And that's boycotting an IAAF meet like the world championships.

I would find that hard to imagine, given the prize money structure at the World Championships, which the athletes know is the richest of any track meet in the world.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby gh » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:57 pm

which is why I said "courage of convictions"; but what other option is there? It's too bad that 2013 isn't a World Indoor year. You could probably get "decent" support for a boycott of that and that would send a message in capital letters to Monaco without affecting remotely as many people as staying away from Moscow (something I think would never-ever-ever happen).
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby guru » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:58 pm

tandfman wrote:
guru wrote: Despite Khadevis Robinson's protestations that work stoppages are not what this is about, at some point they're going to have to back up their demands with action should those demands fall on deaf ears. And that's boycotting an IAAF meet like the world championships.

I would find that hard to imagine, given the prize money structure at the World Championships, which the athletes know is the richest of any track meet in the world.



They also know it's the place the IAAF will take the biggest hit, if they(the IAAF) choose to fight. Most, if not all, of the athletes that would be likely to be in the money can probably afford to miss one paycheck, especially if they more than make up for it in the end.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby gh » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:08 pm

The problem there becomes that as soon as the "first-level" athletes who decide they can live without a WC payday go on strike, the pressure on the "second-liners" becomes so intense with a major payday that they stay on board almost to a man. And while the meet might be diminished, by and large it's still a success.

Think Moscow '80 and LA '84. Huge disappointments to the trackoscenti, but to the average person.....?

They need to be thinking about "top to bottom" solidarity
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby guru » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:12 pm

gh wrote:
Think Moscow '80 and LA '84. Huge disappointments to the trackoscenti, but to the average person.....?



It's a different (media)world than 30 years ago. Just look at the NFL referee melodrama
Last edited by guru on Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby vip » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:13 pm

Unless Bolt and maybe Rudisha sit out the World Champs, hardly anyone would notice who's missing. That in itself is the problem for the athletes. There's only one "face" of the sport, OK maybe two.

Anyway, it's almost impossible to unify hundreds of athletes from several dozen countries. But good luck.
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Re: T&F Athletes To Unionize

Postby guru » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:15 pm

vip wrote:
Anyway, it's almost impossible to unify hundreds of athletes from several dozen countries. But good luck.



Dont have to get them all. Just the ones the sponsors pay the IAAF to bring eyeballs to TV sets for(and it seems most of them are on board)
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