wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perković


Main message board: for the discussion of topical track & field items only.

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby Tuariki » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:17 pm

tm71 wrote:i think it has been mentioned before that relays do not count in the cosidering the AOY so felix and SRR have to depend on their individual races in the 100 and 200 (for felix) and 200 and 400 for SRR. Felix will clearly rank # 1 in the 200, but no higher than 5th in the 100. SRR will clearly rank # 1 in the 400, but no higher than 4th in the 200. Adams and Perkovic will be considered given the fact they were undefeated. Ennis has the same problem with Eaton, two wins with large margins, including beating the defending champion in the OG. The only thing she did not do was exceed 7000 points (WR would be totally unrealistic). But in a year without individual WRs she has a good chance. Someone mentioned the 4 x 1 relay, well that will clearly be the performance of the year (maybe decade).

Why do you say the world record is totally unrealistic for Ennis?
Is it because you think she is not good enough? or
Is it because you think the WR is "tainted"" in someway.
These would seem to be the only options for your claim. So which one is it? Or is there another option?
Tuariki
 
Posts: 1296
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:39 pm
Location: Rohe o Te Whanau a Apanui

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby tm71 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:42 pm

Tuariki wrote:
tm71 wrote:i think it has been mentioned before that relays do not count in the cosidering the AOY so felix and SRR have to depend on their individual races in the 100 and 200 (for felix) and 200 and 400 for SRR. Felix will clearly rank # 1 in the 200, but no higher than 5th in the 100. SRR will clearly rank # 1 in the 400, but no higher than 4th in the 200. Adams and Perkovic will be considered given the fact they were undefeated. Ennis has the same problem with Eaton, two wins with large margins, including beating the defending champion in the OG. The only thing she did not do was exceed 7000 points (WR would be totally unrealistic). But in a year without individual WRs she has a good chance. Someone mentioned the 4 x 1 relay, well that will clearly be the performance of the year (maybe decade).

Why do you say the world record is totally unrealistic for Ennis?
Is it because you think she is not good enough? or
Is it because you think the WR is "tainted"" in someway.
These would seem to be the only options for your claim. So which one is it? Or is there another option?


dude u can make those speculations at your own peril. i simply said that the WR is unrealistic given that it is almost 300 points more than what ennis personal best. in order for her to get near it she would have to start jumping close to 7 m in the long jump and throw over 50 m in the javelin (i dont think she can improve that much in the hurdles, high jump, 200 and 800). however what we are discussing here is the 2012 AOY, not whether Ennis can challenge a mark no one has challenged in over two decades.
tm71
 
Posts: 2301
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby mump boy » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:06 pm

According to IAAF these are from 'principle' competitions so not 100% if any missed

Perkovic lost in Paris but has competed 11 times,

Adams has never lost but competed 7 times this summer (there are probably more competitions southern hemisphere this winter)

Sanya has a loss over her premier event from 7 starts

Allyson hasn't lost but only competed in 3 finals at 200m

Chicherova's 3rd on London was her only loss from 5 competitions

Jess is 2 for 2

Don't forget that Zaripova and Cakir are also 3 for 3 this year

I'm not happy by the lack of competition from some people this year, unless you're in multi events or MAR 5 competitions is not acceptable
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby toyracer » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:28 pm

mump boy wrote:According to IAAF these are from 'principle' competitions so not 100% if any missed


i couldn't find criteria for Athlete of the Year, care to share a link?
toyracer
 
Posts: 1759
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:38 pm
Location: Kingston, Jamaica

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby Tuariki » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:02 pm

tm71 wrote:
Tuariki wrote:
tm71 wrote:i think it has been mentioned before that relays do not count in the cosidering the AOY so felix and SRR have to depend on their individual races in the 100 and 200 (for felix) and 200 and 400 for SRR. Felix will clearly rank # 1 in the 200, but no higher than 5th in the 100. SRR will clearly rank # 1 in the 400, but no higher than 4th in the 200. Adams and Perkovic will be considered given the fact they were undefeated. Ennis has the same problem with Eaton, two wins with large margins, including beating the defending champion in the OG. The only thing she did not do was exceed 7000 points (WR would be totally unrealistic). But in a year without individual WRs she has a good chance. Someone mentioned the 4 x 1 relay, well that will clearly be the performance of the year (maybe decade).

Why do you say the world record is totally unrealistic for Ennis?
Is it because you think she is not good enough? or
Is it because you think the WR is "tainted"" in someway.
These would seem to be the only options for your claim. So which one is it? Or is there another option?


dude u can make those speculations at your own peril. i simply said that the WR is unrealistic given that it is almost 300 points more than what ennis personal best. in order for her to get near it she would have to start jumping close to 7 m in the long jump and throw over 50 m in the javelin (i dont think she can improve that much in the hurdles, high jump, 200 and 800). however what we are discussing here is the 2012 AOY, not whether Ennis can challenge a mark no one has challenged in over two decades.

You have answered my query. You don't think she is good enough. You are probably right.
Tuariki
 
Posts: 1296
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:39 pm
Location: Rohe o Te Whanau a Apanui

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby AS » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:33 pm

mump boy wrote:Adams has never lost but competed 7 times this summer (there are probably more competitions southern hemisphere this winter)


Adams has had 13 comps in the 2012 calendar year:
- 2 in NZ
- 1 in Aus (a 20.67 win)
- 1 indoor at WIC
- 6 DL wins
- 2 other European wins
- 1 Olympic victory

She's had 5 of her 10 longest career throws in 2012
AS
 
Posts: 4499
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: 1956 Olympic city

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby Daisy » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:07 pm

MightyBurner wrote:Ennis looked beatable at certain points

Which point were you thinking of?
Daisy
 
Posts: 13153
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby Tuariki » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:22 am

Daisy wrote:
MightyBurner wrote:Ennis looked beatable at certain points

Which point were you thinking of?

Maybe during the warm up for the 100h? :roll:
Tuariki
 
Posts: 1296
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:39 pm
Location: Rohe o Te Whanau a Apanui

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby lionelp1 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:40 am

Flumpy is correct re the comments about team Relay medals; the statement by 26mi is mere foolishness; the latters comment about Felix being the core of the relay team is irrelevant since everyone on the Relay team is of equal importance in that they all must handle successfully their baton responsibilities.
lionelp1
 
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:48 am

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby nevetsllim » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:51 am

Felix shouldn't be anywhere near AOY. Her 100m season was good but isn't anything to enhance her case and relays are immaterial in this discussion (and rightfully so). Her 200m at the US Trials was fantastic and she won the Olympic title in a very fast time but nothing else stands out. Granted, these were the most important competitions but you need a bit more on your CV to boost your credentials. At the moment, I'd put her equal with someone like Zaripova (in the middle of the top-10) who has a similar racing card at her specialist distance.
nevetsllim
 
Posts: 6261
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:54 am

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby jamboy » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:47 am

nevetsllim wrote:Felix shouldn't be anywhere near AOY. Her 100m season was good but isn't anything to enhance her case and relays are immaterial in this discussion (and rightfully so). Her 200m at the US Trials was fantastic and she won the Olympic title in a very fast time but nothing else stands out. Granted, these were the most important competitions but you need a bit more on your CV to boost your credentials. At the moment, I'd put her equal with someone like Zaripova (in the middle of the top-10) who has a similar racing card at her specialist distance.



I agree.
jamboy
 
Posts: 1245
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:52 am

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby Tuariki » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:26 pm

AS wrote:
mump boy wrote:Adams has never lost but competed 7 times this summer (there are probably more competitions southern hemisphere this winter)


Adams has had 13 comps in the 2012 calendar year:
- 2 in NZ
- 1 in Aus (a 20.67 win)
- 1 indoor at WIC
- 6 DL wins
- 2 other European wins
- 1 Olympic victory

She's had 5 of her 10 longest career throws in 2012

Rieti gives Valerie 14 wins for no losses and another meet record.
Undefeated now for over 2 years. Should be a lock for AOY. But who knows?
Tuariki
 
Posts: 1296
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:39 pm
Location: Rohe o Te Whanau a Apanui

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby gh » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:12 pm

Undefeated for 1 year, 2 years or 27, makes no difference.
gh
 
Posts: 46327
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby j-a-m » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:23 am

Spotakova now got a heptathlon score just shy of the Olympic B standard. I'd probably rank her a couple spots higher just because of that. Now the question is, would that be a valid consideration for an actual voter?
j-a-m
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 8:21 pm

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby gh » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:12 pm

I certainly hope not! The B-standard is what allows second-tier athletes into the Games.

The 5880 puts her about 64th on the yearly list. Would you consider somebody with an 11.26 in the 100 (also 64th) have that mean anything in voting for something as elevated as AOY?
gh
 
Posts: 46327
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby j-a-m » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:34 pm

gh wrote:The 5880 puts her about 64th on the yearly list. Would you consider somebody with an 11.26 in the 100 (also 64th) have that mean anything in voting for something as elevated as AOY?

IF that event is significantly different from the primary event, then yes, I'd like to consider it. And yes, that would apply IF Spotakova were to run 11.26 in addition to being the top JTer.

Being top 100 in the world in an entirely different event shows that someone is an overall great athlete, and it's called Athlete of the year after all.

Don't worry, though; should I ever get on the voting panel, I'd go with the official t&f news criteria ...
j-a-m
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 8:21 pm

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby dbirds » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:10 pm

I agree with J-A-M. I think Spotakova's performance was impressive. How many other gold medalists could score nearly 6000pts in a hepathlon?
dbirds
 
Posts: 514
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:54 am

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby bushop » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:38 pm

dbirds wrote:I agree with J-A-M. I think Spotakova's performance was impressive. How many other gold medalists could score nearly 6000pts in a hepathlon?

Sure it's great... but it has nothing to do with AOY.
How could it?
bushop
 
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: near the toys and tape measures

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby j-a-m » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:14 am

bushop wrote:How could it?

To determine AOY, you need to compare competitors from various different events, and to do so you need criteria to compare them, whether those are implicit or explicit.

I believe overall athletic skills to be one of the better criteria to use here. And wrapping up one's season with a top 100 performance in the heptathlon demonstrates such overall athletic skills.
j-a-m
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 8:21 pm

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby nevetsllim » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:40 am

But it's about finding the best athlete in the world, not the best all-round athlete. And why not go for Ennis then, who's demonstrated she's world-class in two events and of a very good international standard in a few others?
nevetsllim
 
Posts: 6261
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:54 am

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby Vault-emort » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:54 am

dbirds wrote:How many other gold medalists could score nearly 6000pts in a hepathlon?


Since this is now a hypothetical thread.... oh wait.... :o
Vault-emort
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:42 am
Location: In the pits

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby EPelle » Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:43 am

Felix selected USOC Sportswoman of the Year.
EPelle
 
Posts: 21442
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby Gleason » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:05 pm

EPelle wrote:Felix selected USOC Sportswoman of the Year.

I agree with Felix as AOY. IMHO her OG performance is the clincher because I'm impressed with her three gold medals.
Gleason
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:20 pm
Location: Campbell CA

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby gh » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:56 pm

The T&FN ballot will show only a single gold for Felix... her team stuff is irrelevant far as we're concerned. Counting that gives an unfair advantage (way unfair advantage) to those from large-population nations. And has nothing to do with individual achievement.
gh
 
Posts: 46327
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby j-a-m » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:18 am

gh wrote:The T&FN ballot will show only a single gold for Felix... her team stuff is irrelevant far as we're concerned. Counting that gives an unfair advantage (way unfair advantage) to those from large-population nations. And has nothing to do with individual achievement.

Those from smaller countries have an "unfair" advantage in that they don't have to go through national trials to qualify for their individual events at WC and OG; so they can peak once as opposed to twice. So while it's much easier to win relay medals if you're from a larger country, that's somewhat mitigated because it's more difficult to medal in individual events.

Besides, are Bahamas and Jamaica really "large-population nations"?
j-a-m
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 8:21 pm

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby aaronk » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:10 am

dbirds wrote:I agree with J-A-M. I think Spotakova's performance was impressive. How many other gold medalists could score nearly 6000pts in a hepathlon?


I'd say just about ANYONE could who's tops in their event.....as long as that event is in the Hept....or some equivalent.
Thus, I doubt a Tirinish Dibaba could do it, because there's no Hept event similar to a 10K or 5K!!

But sprinters, hurdlers, jumpers, throwers??
She'd get a HUGE point total (1100 or more??) from her key event.
Thus she'd need "only 4800 or 4900 from the other 6 events.

An Olympic athlete is highly trained, and her athletic talent and shape and skills would allow her to get fair to decent point scores in those other events.

Imagine Britney Reese, Dawn Harper (or Lolo??), Kara Patterson, or Carmelita Jeter doing a Hept!!
aaronk
 
Posts: 3354
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 9:39 am

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby mump boy » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:36 am

IAAF finalists are announced .........

Valerie Adams
Jessica Ennis
Allyson Felix

http://www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/ ... -womens-fi
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby Daisy » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:26 am

I'd go for Ennis as the pressure for her was immense.
Daisy
 
Posts: 13153
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby gh » Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:38 am

The IAAF nominations point out what a great year this was for men compared to women. There are people who didn't make the men's final 3 who are better than the best of the women's candidates, methinks.
gh
 
Posts: 46327
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby Gleason » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:22 am

gh wrote:The IAAF nominations point out what a great year this was for men compared to women. There are people who didn't make the men's final 3 who are better than the best of the women's candidates, methinks.

I agree. In 2007 Felix was fourth in AOY, but her 2012 season was similar to 2007, yet she is in the top three.
Gleason
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:20 pm
Location: Campbell CA

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby lionelp1 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:48 pm

mump boy wrote:IAAF finalists are announced .........

Valerie Adams
Jessica Ennis
Allyson Felix

http://www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/ ... -womens-fi


Certainly not Felix; Adams, then Jess and Felix.
lionelp1
 
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:48 am

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby Tuariki » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:08 pm

Daisy wrote:I'd go for Ennis as the pressure for her was immense.

Is that a new judging criterion?

Does that mean in Olympic year the AOY should be the local host country favourite who comes through and wins gold? Should Farah then be men's AOY?
Tuariki
 
Posts: 1296
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:39 pm
Location: Rohe o Te Whanau a Apanui

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby Daisy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:26 am

Tuariki wrote:Should Farah then be men's AOY?

Great idea! ;)
Daisy
 
Posts: 13153
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby nianchengyu » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:57 pm

Ennis is fabulous this year despite losing WIC title to dobynska,two times over 6900p which even kluft did not reach plus world top-class 7.87s 60mH and 12.54s 100mH,if she can win the AOY,it would be good for this season,as for Adams ,she is great and I support her to win AOY last year,but her oly performance did not good at all adding no PB this year,her chances is minor.If she want to be more competive in the titles,please toss the shot over 21.70m first because experts did not much in favor of throwers,thinking about 10 times over 22m in 1980 of slupianek, even in current times adams has more works to do in a single season.Not forget Felix,that she did not even ranked top3 in 2007 was quite surprise to me,in this season she performed fantastically but too few competions in her main events,so you know what I tend someone to win the trophy specifically, :D
nianchengyu
 
Posts: 714
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:32 pm

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby eldanielfire » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:49 pm

Tuariki wrote:
Daisy wrote:I'd go for Ennis as the pressure for her was immense.

Is that a new judging criterion?

Does that mean in Olympic year the AOY should be the local host country favourite who comes through and wins gold? Should Farah then be men's AOY?


Maybe. All achievements do require context and the Face of the games pressure is unique and forever will be brought up with Ennis' Gold Medal achievement and as prehaps the great performance moment in T&F during the Olympic games. Farah didn't quite have that pressure but his double distance gold certainly deserves seriosu consideration.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby shivfan » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:34 am

eldanielfire wrote:
Tuariki wrote:
Daisy wrote:I'd go for Ennis as the pressure for her was immense.

Is that a new judging criterion?

Does that mean in Olympic year the AOY should be the local host country favourite who comes through and wins gold? Should Farah then be men's AOY?


Maybe. All achievements do require context and the Face of the games pressure is unique and forever will be brought up with Ennis' Gold Medal achievement and as prehaps the great performance moment in T&F during the Olympic games. Farah didn't quite have that pressure but his double distance gold certainly deserves seriosu consideration.

On the other side of the coin, running in front of a loud crowd cheering for you can give you a huge boost. I was in the stadium when Farah got his second gold, and the volume of the cheering was something I had never experienced before....

Maybe they should be disqualified for the uplifting support they received!
:D
shivfan
 
Posts: 2588
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:30 am
Location: Just outside London

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby eldanielfire » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:07 pm

That may be true...for Farah. But Ennis was talked up as the Track gold London must get to be a vintage Olympics. Since the World gold in 2009 Freeman comparisions were made, it basically was brought up in every interview Jess Ennis has had for 3 years and as it drew closer, giant billboards, advertising of all kinds, the giant picture draw in the fields to be seen by planes coming into Heathrow. That pressure is immense and worst of all singular, it's not spread among a team or other competitors, Ennis was to be the British moment of the games. You could see it in her face, Johnson-Thompson might have enjoyed it and been spured on, Ennis had to win no matter what. All after a year in 2011 where she showed she could be beaten and the competition was dangerous.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:00 pm

What seems to be missing here is that the last two years in particular, Farah has been at the forefront of a paradigm shift -- the European and American athletes can compete at the highest level successfully in the long distances. None of the other athletes has nearly that sea-change implicit in their accomplishments.

There was a sea-change in 2008 with Bolt but there was no comparable change in 2012. In fact, the most widely predicted WR at this Olympics was the 4x100 Men's Relay (even more than the 800). Nothing Ennis did results in any different assessment of the state of our sport. In fact, I do not think that there was much change due to any of them, with the exception of Rudisha when you combine 2011 with 2012, and similarly for Eaton. After the Olympics, the hurdle WR was so stunningly good that even though breaking it in the best hurdle season was not a big surprise, doing that much was (and now it is close to where something else has to be worked out).
26mi235
 
Posts: 16323
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby Flumpy » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:00 pm

26mi235 wrote:None of the other athletes has nearly that sea-change implicit in their accomplishments.


Because none of the other athletes compete in events where Europe and the USA have been so shit for so long (Only on the mens side by the way).

You shouldn't get extra credit just because historically your peers have been piss poor.
Flumpy
 
Posts: 3899
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:53 pm

Flumpy wrote:
26mi235 wrote:None of the other athletes has nearly that sea-change implicit in their accomplishments.


Because none of the other athletes compete in events where Europe and the USA have been so shit for so long (Only on the mens side by the way).

You shouldn't get extra credit just because historically your peers have been piss poor.


Call it what you want, it will likely have more impact on the sport than any of those other athletes. THAT is a big deal, whether you like it or not, and it seems that you do not really like it that much for some reason.

I cannot remember what your opinion of Ennis is, but since she is vastly behind the frontier, why were you ever excited about her.
26mi235
 
Posts: 16323
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Exabot [Bot], Google [Bot], jjimbojames, Master Po and 7 guests