Tuariki wrote:SAFP is a great champion. No doubt about that. She will be a deserving #1 for the 100m. But her 2012 record is just not in the ballpark for AOY compared to Adams, Ennis, Perkovic and Felix. And even SRR has, IMO, a better overall record than SAFP.
I'll gladly concede Adams, Ennis & Perkovic, but not Felix or SR-R. Neither Felix nor Richards-Ross earned a medal in their second event when they doubled at the Olympics; S-AF-P went gold, silver.
Felix, SRR and SAFP all had great seasons and one could come up with sound logic in support of each. Judging them on their performances over the two individual events they competed in at London I agree SAFP comes out ahead of Felix and SRR. Looking solely at their best event I would still put Felix ahead of SAFP.
For AOY consideration one has to look at all individual events an athlete chose to compete in. One can't cherry pick a single event if an athlete chose to double and didn't do well in the second. To say that S-AF-P "2012 record is just not in the ballpark for AOY compared to .....Felix" is disingenuous because you'd have to ignore a national championship and silver medal plus PB's in each instance for S-AF-P while conveniently similarly ignoring a national championship 3rd place tie and Olympic 5th place for Felix.
toyracer wrote:For AOY consideration one has to look at all individual events an athlete chose to compete in. One can't cherry pick a single event if an athlete chose to double and didn't do well in the second. To say that S-AF-P "2012 record is just not in the ballpark for AOY compared to .....Felix" is disingenuous because you'd have to ignore a national championship and silver medal plus PB's in each instance for S-AF-P while conveniently similarly ignoring a national championship 3rd place tie and Olympic 5th place for Felix.
Then based on your logic Eaton and Ennis have no chance as you would have to take into account their "failures" in the various individual events they competed in. IMO you can only judge the AOY based on a single individual event. Also I think PBs are irrelevant. What is relevant is the performance; PB or no PB. Therefore Felix and her 200m record against SAFPs 100m. And IMO Felix wins. However, it doesn't matter as AOY should be Adams, then Ennis, then Perkovic
Half Miler wrote:Has to be Adams. And it's about time. (Because she is the Olympic champ, and because she is strong, and because she is undefeated and because she is beautiful.)
Not sure how high she'll be placed but I think Tiki Gelana is deserving of a top-10 spot. Won Rotterdam in 2:18:58 followed by a gold medal in London in an Olympic record of 2:23:07.
toyracer wrote:For AOY consideration one has to look at all individual events an athlete chose to compete in. One can't cherry pick a single event if an athlete chose to double and didn't do well in the second. To say that S-AF-P "2012 record is just not in the ballpark for AOY compared to .....Felix" is disingenuous because you'd have to ignore a national championship and silver medal plus PB's in each instance for S-AF-P while conveniently similarly ignoring a national championship 3rd place tie and Olympic 5th place for Felix.
Then based on your logic Eaton and Ennis have no chance as you would have to take into account their "failures" in the various individual events they competed in.
Wow.
You really like to stretch a point as far as possible, and then some.
You just breezed by the fact that "individual" used in that context meant the athlete, not a single event/discipline. "Individual" as in "not having to rely on others in a team combined event" e.g. 4x100m relay.
And SB's, PB's, NC's and NR's aren't relevant for judging an Athlete of the Year?
You really like to stretch a point as far as possible, and then some.
If it is OK for Paul Ryan then it should be OK for me. And, being a former politician I also have that as an excuse.
toyracer wrote:You just breezed by the fact that "individual" used in that context meant the athlete, not a single event/discipline. "Individual" as in "not having to rely on others in a team combined event" e.g. 4x100m relay.
And SB's, PB's, NC's and NR's aren't relevant for judging an Athlete of the Year?
I do not believe SBs and PBs and NRs are at all relevant other than in the context they represent a great individual performance.
An NC can be relevant in the context the individual beat a world class field. So the US and Jamaican 100m and 200m NCs are of course relevant given the quality of the other competitors. On the other hand winning the US and Jamaican hammer NC is not particularly relevant.
Flumpy wrote:But is still a statement of fact. Relay medals are entirely dependent on which country you come from and shouldn't be valued as highly as an individual ones when determining someones accomplishments.
Her 3 gold medals will 'puff her up' in the public's perception but the truth is had she come from Canada she'd only have 1.
It is a 'journeymen'-type mis-statement of fact. First, Felix is the core of those relays, and if it was so easy, how come it took so many years to take it down, and to completely outclass the Jamaicans that had 103 in the 100. Second, you certainly would have them lose their relay medals if AF had a drug positive, even a stimulant. So, ...
Finally, why are people talking nonsense about incentives not mattering at all in terms of the likely level of competition in an event. I am not saying that it is always guaranteed to have the biggest field of top athletes in the 100, and you do not determine best fields by mailing in the incentives of the event, so the shot or the hammer or the discus or the walks could have deeper competition sometimes. But they do not have the deepest fields most of the time.
26mi235 wrote:It is a 'journeymen'-type mis-statement of fact. First, Felix is the core of those relays, and if it was so easy, how come it took so many years to take it down, and to completely outclass the Jamaicans that had 103 in the 100.
Because the teams with the footspeed (U.S. and Jamaica) have always gone into global championships undercoached and unprepared. A couple of days ago, I ran into a very respected coach who has been on the staff of U.S. national teams on a couple of occasions. When I asked him what he thought of the 4x100 records in London, he answered, "What took them so long?"
Flumpy wrote:But is still a statement of fact. Relay medals are entirely dependent on which country you come from and shouldn't be valued as highly as an individual ones when determining someones accomplishments.
Her 3 gold medals will 'puff her up' in the public's perception but the truth is had she come from Canada she'd only have 1.
It is a 'journeymen'-type mis-statement of fact. First, Felix is the core of those relays, and if it was so easy, how come it took so many years to take it down, and to completely outclass the Jamaicans that had 103 in the 100. Second, you certainly would have them lose their relay medals if AF had a drug positive, even a stimulant. So, ...
Finally, why are people talking nonsense about incentives not mattering at all in terms of the likely level of competition in an event. I am not saying that it is always guaranteed to have the biggest field of top athletes in the 100, and you do not determine best fields by mailing in the incentives of the event, so the shot or the hammer or the discus or the walks could have deeper competition sometimes. But they do not have the deepest fields most of the time.
Journeyman Flumpy is right. Relays have no role to play in AOY. TOY yes. AOY no. [TOY = team of the year]. Felix may be the core of the relay but IMO there must then be 4 cores because last time I check all 4 cores need to be there.
You appear to place Felix ahead of Jeter and the others in value - an interesting assessment to say the least.
I think it is inappropriate to make comments about a "what if" positive drug test for Felix.
As far as deepness of fields can you please provide us with your basis for making such a claim. If you take the deepness of a field as being rated against the finalists in London then the men's and women's shot in the DL's after the Olympics seem to have pretty deep fields to me compared to the 100m, 200m for both men and women.
nevetsllim wrote:Not sure how high she'll be placed but I think Tiki Gelana is deserving of a top-10 spot. Won Rotterdam in 2:18:58 followed by a gold medal in London in an Olympic record of 2:23:07.
Alysson and Sanya aren't even going to make the Top 10 at this rate
Last edited by Flumpy on Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1500m 01.07 Helsinki European Championships 1. 4:05.31 1500m 06.07 Paris Meeting AREVA 2. 3:56.62 (1st after Selsouli DQ) 1500m 10.08 London Olympic Games 1. 4:10.23
Zaripova
3000mSC 03.07 Cheboksary Russian Ch. 1. 9:09.99 3000mSC 06.08 London Olympic Games 1. 9:06.72 3000mSC 17.08 Stockholm DN Galan 1. 9:05.02
They've had unbeaten seasons with super fast times, Zaripova is 2nd fastest ever
I think they are right up there and should be considered
i think it has been mentioned before that relays do not count in the cosidering the AOY so felix and SRR have to depend on their individual races in the 100 and 200 (for felix) and 200 and 400 for SRR. Felix will clearly rank # 1 in the 200, but no higher than 5th in the 100. SRR will clearly rank # 1 in the 400, but no higher than 4th in the 200. Adams and Perkovic will be considered given the fact they were undefeated. Ennis has the same problem with Eaton, two wins with large margins, including beating the defending champion in the OG. The only thing she did not do was exceed 7000 points (WR would be totally unrealistic). But in a year without individual WRs she has a good chance. Someone mentioned the 4 x 1 relay, well that will clearly be the performance of the year (maybe decade).
tm71 wrote:i think it has been mentioned before that relays do not count in the cosidering the AOY so felix and SRR have to depend on their individual races in the 100 and 200 (for felix) and 200 and 400 for SRR. Felix will clearly rank # 1 in the 200, but no higher than 5th in the 100. SRR will clearly rank # 1 in the 400, but no higher than 4th in the 200. Adams and Perkovic will be considered given the fact they were undefeated. Ennis has the same problem with Eaton, two wins with large margins, including beating the defending champion in the OG. The only thing she did not do was exceed 7000 points (WR would be totally unrealistic). But in a year without individual WRs she has a good chance. Someone mentioned the 4 x 1 relay, well that will clearly be the performance of the year (maybe decade).
Why do you say the world record is totally unrealistic for Ennis? Is it because you think she is not good enough? or Is it because you think the WR is "tainted"" in someway. These would seem to be the only options for your claim. So which one is it? Or is there another option?
tm71 wrote:i think it has been mentioned before that relays do not count in the cosidering the AOY so felix and SRR have to depend on their individual races in the 100 and 200 (for felix) and 200 and 400 for SRR. Felix will clearly rank # 1 in the 200, but no higher than 5th in the 100. SRR will clearly rank # 1 in the 400, but no higher than 4th in the 200. Adams and Perkovic will be considered given the fact they were undefeated. Ennis has the same problem with Eaton, two wins with large margins, including beating the defending champion in the OG. The only thing she did not do was exceed 7000 points (WR would be totally unrealistic). But in a year without individual WRs she has a good chance. Someone mentioned the 4 x 1 relay, well that will clearly be the performance of the year (maybe decade).
Why do you say the world record is totally unrealistic for Ennis? Is it because you think she is not good enough? or Is it because you think the WR is "tainted"" in someway. These would seem to be the only options for your claim. So which one is it? Or is there another option?
dude u can make those speculations at your own peril. i simply said that the WR is unrealistic given that it is almost 300 points more than what ennis personal best. in order for her to get near it she would have to start jumping close to 7 m in the long jump and throw over 50 m in the javelin (i dont think she can improve that much in the hurdles, high jump, 200 and 800). however what we are discussing here is the 2012 AOY, not whether Ennis can challenge a mark no one has challenged in over two decades.
tm71 wrote:i think it has been mentioned before that relays do not count in the cosidering the AOY so felix and SRR have to depend on their individual races in the 100 and 200 (for felix) and 200 and 400 for SRR. Felix will clearly rank # 1 in the 200, but no higher than 5th in the 100. SRR will clearly rank # 1 in the 400, but no higher than 4th in the 200. Adams and Perkovic will be considered given the fact they were undefeated. Ennis has the same problem with Eaton, two wins with large margins, including beating the defending champion in the OG. The only thing she did not do was exceed 7000 points (WR would be totally unrealistic). But in a year without individual WRs she has a good chance. Someone mentioned the 4 x 1 relay, well that will clearly be the performance of the year (maybe decade).
Why do you say the world record is totally unrealistic for Ennis? Is it because you think she is not good enough? or Is it because you think the WR is "tainted"" in someway. These would seem to be the only options for your claim. So which one is it? Or is there another option?
dude u can make those speculations at your own peril. i simply said that the WR is unrealistic given that it is almost 300 points more than what ennis personal best. in order for her to get near it she would have to start jumping close to 7 m in the long jump and throw over 50 m in the javelin (i dont think she can improve that much in the hurdles, high jump, 200 and 800). however what we are discussing here is the 2012 AOY, not whether Ennis can challenge a mark no one has challenged in over two decades.
You have answered my query. You don't think she is good enough. You are probably right.
mump boy wrote:Adams has never lost but competed 7 times this summer (there are probably more competitions southern hemisphere this winter)
Adams has had 13 comps in the 2012 calendar year: - 2 in NZ - 1 in Aus (a 20.67 win) - 1 indoor at WIC - 6 DL wins - 2 other European wins - 1 Olympic victory
She's had 5 of her 10 longest career throws in 2012
Flumpy is correct re the comments about team Relay medals; the statement by 26mi is mere foolishness; the latters comment about Felix being the core of the relay team is irrelevant since everyone on the Relay team is of equal importance in that they all must handle successfully their baton responsibilities.
Felix shouldn't be anywhere near AOY. Her 100m season was good but isn't anything to enhance her case and relays are immaterial in this discussion (and rightfully so). Her 200m at the US Trials was fantastic and she won the Olympic title in a very fast time but nothing else stands out. Granted, these were the most important competitions but you need a bit more on your CV to boost your credentials. At the moment, I'd put her equal with someone like Zaripova (in the middle of the top-10) who has a similar racing card at her specialist distance.
nevetsllim wrote:Felix shouldn't be anywhere near AOY. Her 100m season was good but isn't anything to enhance her case and relays are immaterial in this discussion (and rightfully so). Her 200m at the US Trials was fantastic and she won the Olympic title in a very fast time but nothing else stands out. Granted, these were the most important competitions but you need a bit more on your CV to boost your credentials. At the moment, I'd put her equal with someone like Zaripova (in the middle of the top-10) who has a similar racing card at her specialist distance.
mump boy wrote:Adams has never lost but competed 7 times this summer (there are probably more competitions southern hemisphere this winter)
Adams has had 13 comps in the 2012 calendar year: - 2 in NZ - 1 in Aus (a 20.67 win) - 1 indoor at WIC - 6 DL wins - 2 other European wins - 1 Olympic victory
She's had 5 of her 10 longest career throws in 2012
Rieti gives Valerie 14 wins for no losses and another meet record. Undefeated now for over 2 years. Should be a lock for AOY. But who knows?
Spotakova now got a heptathlon score just shy of the Olympic B standard. I'd probably rank her a couple spots higher just because of that. Now the question is, would that be a valid consideration for an actual voter?
I certainly hope not! The B-standard is what allows second-tier athletes into the Games.
The 5880 puts her about 64th on the yearly list. Would you consider somebody with an 11.26 in the 100 (also 64th) have that mean anything in voting for something as elevated as AOY?
gh wrote:The 5880 puts her about 64th on the yearly list. Would you consider somebody with an 11.26 in the 100 (also 64th) have that mean anything in voting for something as elevated as AOY?
IF that event is significantly different from the primary event, then yes, I'd like to consider it. And yes, that would apply IF Spotakova were to run 11.26 in addition to being the top JTer.
Being top 100 in the world in an entirely different event shows that someone is an overall great athlete, and it's called Athlete of the year after all.
Don't worry, though; should I ever get on the voting panel, I'd go with the official t&f news criteria ...
dbirds wrote:I agree with J-A-M. I think Spotakova's performance was impressive. How many other gold medalists could score nearly 6000pts in a hepathlon?
Sure it's great... but it has nothing to do with AOY. How could it?
To determine AOY, you need to compare competitors from various different events, and to do so you need criteria to compare them, whether those are implicit or explicit.
I believe overall athletic skills to be one of the better criteria to use here. And wrapping up one's season with a top 100 performance in the heptathlon demonstrates such overall athletic skills.
But it's about finding the best athlete in the world, not the best all-round athlete. And why not go for Ennis then, who's demonstrated she's world-class in two events and of a very good international standard in a few others?
