Gabriella wrote: Personally, I don't like the idea of Perkovic winning it, but she has had a great season. Fellix and SRR are non starters for me...but I would not be surprised if the IAAF award it to Felix. Adams would be a good statement, but she isn't what they want to showcase.
As for who TFN go for, I have no idea.
Adams would be a fantastic statement but it's highly unlikely she'll be given anything. Remember Ostapchuk a couple of years ago not even being on the shortlist for the IAAF and being completely nobbled by someone putting her in 10th place on T&FN.
In hindsight this was all for the best but she was an obvious AOY that year and yet it went to the gorgeous Blanka despite her season being clearly inferior.
For the men I'm sticking with Rudisha. You shouldn't be penalised for competing and neither of 2 nearest rivals competed much at all. In fact I'd put Harting over Mo. So......
1 - Rudisha 2 - Harting 3 - Eaton 4 - Farah
Probably Usian next but I'd have to look into it a bit further.
Because she is the Olympic champ, and because she is fast, and because she is undefeated (at 400m) and because she is beautiful.
Um, since when is being beautiful one of T&FN's criteria for AOY??
Ask Tuariki?
I consulted my fellow directors on my Board (Hugh Hefner and Silvio Berlusconi) and we are of the unanimous opinion that it is obviously an unwritten criterion that beauty is a prime factor because old men simply can't help themselves. And i am guessing many of the voters are old men. Dirty old men??? It is also sometimes referred to as the Jimmy Carter syndrome.
shivfan wrote:Felix gets my vote....three gold medals, plus a WR in the relay.
I don't think relays count. Do you think they should?
T&FN's bio will list Felix's London accomplishments as a 200 gold and 100 5th and also mention a 48.2 relay carry. That's all.
Most definitely not the stuff that AOYs are built on. She's puffed up in the public perception because of the 3 golds, 2 of which could still have been accomplished if you swapped her out for a less capable runner. Team stuff has absolutely no place in an AOY discussion (by our rules).
She deserves to be "puffed up" in the public perception because of the 3 golds. Just because you and others do not consider team stuff for the AOY discussion does not minimized what she accomplished at the Olympics. The issue is not could they have won without her in the 4x100 and 4x400 with someone else, but was there anyone else who could have performed the way she did. The body of work at the Olympics speaks for itself and justify the public perception. I really do not understand this "backhand slap" at Felix.
100m and Heptathlon are inherently more valuable events than the SP; that's part of the reason why I'd pick SAFP and Ennis over Adams, regardless of whether Adams is more undefeated within her event than the others.
TrackFan4Ever wrote:I really do not understand this "backhand slap" at Felix.
Nobody is giving Felix a 'backhand slap'. This has nothing to do with the public's perception. In AOY discussion relay gold medals are not counted therefore the fact that she won 3 golds is irrelevant.
She had a fantastic year and will be extremely happy with her Olympic performances but AOY goes to the person whose individual accomplishments are deemed to be the most impressive.
With so few competitions this year in her primary event and mixed results in her secondary Allyson Felix doesn't come close.
j-a-m wrote:100m and Heptathlon are inherently more valuable events than the SP
What does that even mean???
j-a-m wrote: that's part of the reason why I'd pick SAFP and Ennis over Adams, regardless of whether Adams is more undefeated within her event than the others.
And this makes no sense???
What you're basically saying is that you won't vote for a Shot Putter however superior they are to everyone else.
SAFP is below Chicherova and Perkovic as well but I suppose their events aren't that valuable either
MightyBurner wrote:Easily Adams. No one else was close to her this year. Ennis looked beatable at certain points, Adams didn't if you take Ostapchuk out of the equation.
This is the TOTAL truth but it all got obscured by a certain someone
I'd still like to see her do a monster throw though
j-a-m wrote:100m and Heptathlon are inherently more valuable events than the SP; that's part of the reason why I'd pick SAFP and Ennis over Adams, regardless of whether Adams is more undefeated within her event than the others.
j-a-m wrote:100m and Heptathlon are inherently more valuable events than the SP...
By what value system or denomination?
1) Overall athletic skills required 2) Number and diversity of participants worldwide 3) Maybe more that I can't think of right now
While I agree the multis take more overall athletic skill... the 100m does not... it's a straight line. I've worked with very quick sprinters that could not throw a ball or turn a corner.
j-a-m wrote:100m and Heptathlon are inherently more valuable events than the SP...
By what value system or denomination?
The big one, especially for the 100, is that the rewards are much greater so that the incentives draw in a bigger crowd. The degree of competitiveness in the field certainly is primary relevance. Winning your event one year over a much diminished field (e.g., a lot of injuries so that there are only a couple of major players) leads to the possibility that winning that event for the year is not seen as necessarily a great accomplishment. How many walkers have by even in the top 5 for AOY, much less winners, despite undefeated seasons.
Just like when T&FN determines how important a win is they depend on the nature of the field and the incentives to win. For instance, even with a good field, winning at the Trials is quite as germane because the big feature of the event is to qualify (although in a sprint everyone is likely going just about all-out, but Bolt's loss at his Trials is not quite the stunner because he still won his place on the Team).
j-a-m wrote:100m and Heptathlon are inherently more valuable events than the SP; that's part of the reason why I'd pick SAFP and Ennis over Adams, regardless of whether Adams is more undefeated within her event than the others.
j-a-m wrote:
bushop wrote:By what value system or denomination?
1) Overall athletic skills required 2) Number and diversity of participants worldwide 3) Maybe more that I can't think of right now
You really and truly are dim-witted. So what particular range of overall athletic skills are you talking about in regards to the 100m over any other event. Having run the 100m (not very well) and thrown the shot (even worse than my 100m) I believe it is a lot harder skill-wise trying to throw the shot.
Using your ridiculous argument for overall skills can only mean that you consider the #1 heptathlete wins by default every year given the heptathlete must be skilled in 7 different events compared to one event for everyone else.
Number and diversity of participants? And so there are sh**loads of athletes out there competing in the heptathlon?? Haven't seen them myself. Admittedly I don't see many shotputters either, but logic says there must be more shotputters than heptathletes because every heptathlete is by definition also a shotputter.
I am a great supporter and admirer of Jamaican sprinting success. And it is fun to occasionally wind up some of the more sensitive American posters on this subject. However, it seems you are one ridiculous one-eyed Jamaican poster who will do anything to twist reality to come out with a Jamaican winner.
SAFP is a great champion. No doubt about that. She will be a deserving #1 for the 100m. But her 2012 record is just not in the ballpark for AOY compared to Adams, Ennis, Perkovic and Felix. And even SRR has, IMO, a better overall record than SAFP.
Tuariki, no need to be so vehement. He does have the point that I made above that the 100 is where the biggest dollars are and hence it draws the biggest group of substantial talent. Being the best of a bigger, more competitive event does indicate one aspect of relative performance (SAFP wont win because she is only 3-3 versus even one other athlete). Why are you (and others) not campaigning for the undefeated walks specialist every year -- in part because you know the competition is thinner. Thus, the size of the top competitive group matters.
I like the multis and think that they are a version of the top athlete. However, as you indicate, the field is thin (in part because you have to survive training and competitions). The point about all multi-eventers being shot putters, however, is one that does not match your level of expertise, by that type of thinking 6 billion people have run and jumped so those are the big events.
Tuariki wrote:SAFP is a great champion. No doubt about that. She will be a deserving #1 for the 100m. But her 2012 record is just not in the ballpark for AOY compared to Adams, Ennis, Perkovic and Felix. And even SRR has, IMO, a better overall record than SAFP.
I'll gladly concede Adams, Ennis & Perkovic, but not Felix or SR-R. Neither Felix nor Richards-Ross earned a medal in their second event when they doubled at the Olympics; S-AF-P went gold, silver.
Vehemence?? You should have seen the first version of my submission. If it looks stupid, sounds stupid, feels stupid, smells stupid - it probably is stupid.
26mi235 wrote: He does have the point that I made above that the 100 is where the biggest dollars are and hence it draws the biggest group of substantial talent. Being the best of a bigger, more competitive event does indicate one aspect of relative performance ........ Thus, the size of the top competitive group matters.
Sorry, but that's a stupid comment as well. If this is the case then there is no need to debate AOY because it will go to the #1 marathoner as I have a suspicion there are heaps more people running in competitive marathons than any event held inside the stadium.
26mi235 wrote:The point about all multi-eventers being shot putters, however, is one that does not match your level of expertise, by that type of thinking 6 billion people have run and jumped so those are the big events.
And this is another dumb comment. Whether you like it or not every heptathlete IS a competitive shot putter, even if it is restricted solely to the heptathlon. Your reasoning implies that I an saying that every one of the 6 billion plus on this planet of ours is involved in competitive athletics. I did not say that. And you sure as hell can't logically come to that conclusion unless you have found some obscure form of calculus that enables you to do so.
The total sample base I am referring to are those persons who are registered in their countries as competitive Track and Field athletes. In New Zealand that was 18,944 in 2011. I would not have a clue how many of those 18,944 are female 100m, heptathlon or shot putters. I am prepared however to hazard a guess that there are more marathoners than any other event.
Tuariki wrote:SAFP is a great champion. No doubt about that. She will be a deserving #1 for the 100m. But her 2012 record is just not in the ballpark for AOY compared to Adams, Ennis, Perkovic and Felix. And even SRR has, IMO, a better overall record than SAFP.
I'll gladly concede Adams, Ennis & Perkovic, but not Felix or SR-R. Neither Felix nor Richards-Ross earned a medal in their second event when they doubled at the Olympics; S-AF-P went gold, silver.
Felix, SRR and SAFP all had great seasons and one could come up with sound logic in support of each. Judging them on their performances over the two individual events they competed in at London I agree SAFP comes out ahead of Felix and SRR. Looking solely at their best event I would still put Felix ahead of SAFP.
26mi235 wrote:I like the multis and think that they are a version of the top athlete.
What I'd like to add to that and to my own previous post is the question of how basic a skill or a combination of skills is. Comparing t&f to other sports, running fast is a more basic human skill than swimming, much more basic than skating, and the margin increases even further if you compare it to golf. And while the differences within t&f are probably smaller then between t&f and other sports, there are significant differences as well.
26mi235 wrote:I like the multis and think that they are a version of the top athlete.
What I'd like to add to that and to my own previous post is the question of how basic a skill or a combination of skills is. Comparing t&f to other sports, running fast is a more basic human skill than swimming, much more basic than skating, and the margin increases even further if you compare it to golf. And while the differences within t&f are probably smaller then between t&f and other sports, there are significant differences as well.
But none of that is a criteria on which to base AOY. You can't just make up your own rules.
We have to start from the assumption that all events are equal otherwise the whole procedure is flawed from the outset.
TrackFan4Ever wrote:I really do not understand this "backhand slap" at Felix.
Nobody is giving Felix a 'backhand slap'. This has nothing to do with the public's perception. In AOY discussion relay gold medals are not counted therefore the fact that she won 3 golds is irrelevant.
She had a fantastic year and will be extremely happy with her Olympic performances but AOY goes to the person whose individual accomplishments are deemed to be the most impressive.
With so few competitions this year in her primary event and mixed results in her secondary Allyson Felix doesn't come close.
You missed my point and that can happen if you detach my last sentence from the preceding sentences. I am not arguing for Felix as AOY. I am taking issue with the statement that, "She's puffed up in the public perception because of the 3 golds, 2 of which could still have been accomplished if you swapped her out for a less capable runner." Felix is justifiably "puffed up" in the public perception because of the 3 golds! It is a "backhand slap" to state the relay golds would still have been won with less capable runners. It minimizes the exceptional legs that Felix ran on the relays.
But is still a statement of fact. Relay medals are entirely dependent on which country you come from and shouldn't be valued as highly as an individual ones when determining someones accomplishments.
Her 3 gold medals will 'puff her up' in the public's perception but the truth is had she come from Canada she'd only have 1.
Tuariki wrote:SAFP is a great champion. No doubt about that. She will be a deserving #1 for the 100m. But her 2012 record is just not in the ballpark for AOY compared to Adams, Ennis, Perkovic and Felix. And even SRR has, IMO, a better overall record than SAFP.
I'll gladly concede Adams, Ennis & Perkovic, but not Felix or SR-R. Neither Felix nor Richards-Ross earned a medal in their second event when they doubled at the Olympics; S-AF-P went gold, silver.
Felix, SRR and SAFP all had great seasons and one could come up with sound logic in support of each. Judging them on their performances over the two individual events they competed in at London I agree SAFP comes out ahead of Felix and SRR. Looking solely at their best event I would still put Felix ahead of SAFP.
For AOY consideration one has to look at all individual events an athlete chose to compete in. One can't cherry pick a single event if an athlete chose to double and didn't do well in the second. To say that S-AF-P "2012 record is just not in the ballpark for AOY compared to .....Felix" is disingenuous because you'd have to ignore a national championship and silver medal plus PB's in each instance for S-AF-P while conveniently similarly ignoring a national championship 3rd place tie and Olympic 5th place for Felix.
toyracer wrote:For AOY consideration one has to look at all individual events an athlete chose to compete in. One can't cherry pick a single event if an athlete chose to double and didn't do well in the second. To say that S-AF-P "2012 record is just not in the ballpark for AOY compared to .....Felix" is disingenuous because you'd have to ignore a national championship and silver medal plus PB's in each instance for S-AF-P while conveniently similarly ignoring a national championship 3rd place tie and Olympic 5th place for Felix.
Then based on your logic Eaton and Ennis have no chance as you would have to take into account their "failures" in the various individual events they competed in. IMO you can only judge the AOY based on a single individual event. Also I think PBs are irrelevant. What is relevant is the performance; PB or no PB. Therefore Felix and her 200m record against SAFPs 100m. And IMO Felix wins. However, it doesn't matter as AOY should be Adams, then Ennis, then Perkovic
Half Miler wrote:Has to be Adams. And it's about time. (Because she is the Olympic champ, and because she is strong, and because she is undefeated and because she is beautiful.)
Not sure how high she'll be placed but I think Tiki Gelana is deserving of a top-10 spot. Won Rotterdam in 2:18:58 followed by a gold medal in London in an Olympic record of 2:23:07.
