wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perković

[mump boy]

Would you have given her the award if she only ran 200s in 2012?

No, because she only can it 4 times, this may be acceptable in multi events but not in individual ones if you want to be AOY, especially as the Zagreb race was totally pointless. She didn't run 1 200m in a European DL

I'd rather you ran against everyone, every week and lost a couple of times (Aries), than ran sparingly and stayed undefeated.

[Gabriella]

AF's marks were so good that people were apparently disappointed by her 21.x winning time over one of the best fields in the Games (at least T&F). As for Ennis topping the marks list -- I think she did well, but please, she need several hundred points to get to the front end of history; certainly a bit of a stretch, in my mind, to equate to better than multiple 21s (however, I grant that Gabriela has a broader and deeper grasp of the competitive landscape and I can be convinced to change my assessment; gh has changed mine plenty of times and Gabriela several).

I don't think Felix was any closer to 21.34 than Ennis was to 7291. I also don't think two sub 21's counts as 'multiple 21s'. IMO Ennis's 2 x 6900+ counts for far more than Felix's 2 x sub 22.

If we look at the last 20 years, there have only been two women to score 6900 pts or above; Shouaa once in 1996 and then Kluft once in 03, 04 and 07. Neither could make it twice over 6900 in the same season. JJK's 1988 season was the last time we have seen a woman score over 6900 twice in one season.

On the other hand, look at the 200m over the last 20 years, and we see many more women running 22.00 secs or under; Ottey, Torrance, Privalova, Jones, Miller, VCB, Felix herself, Stewart & Simpson.

You could argue the sprints are more competitive, the events are more developed than the heptathlon and I don't disagree. But equally everything and anything can go wrong in a heptathlon and the chance of hitting every event is a rare occurance. We've also seen that, overall, the best all round women do do the heptatlon, so it's not like we are 'missing' women to other events. Historically the event may have gained had Devers, Drechsler and Privalova focussed on the multis, but it does seem that whoever was good at multis generally does do it. So the event has what partcipants it can have. You are of course always going to have less women in the heptathlon because few women have the ability across 7 events; its not just about facilities.

Some other points: Felix also 'benefits' from the fact that she is really the only true elite 200m specialist out there right now. The other top women sprinters tend to concentrate more on either the 100 or 400 but there is no reason any of these women couldnt be great at 200m should they focus on it the way Felix does: Jeter, Simpson, Stewart, VCB, Richards. Back in the 90s and Ottey, Torrance and Privalova all paid equal attention to both sprints. It just doesnt happen now (not Felix's fault but it's a factor)

Of course, comparing arbitrary marks in different events can be meaningless, and as a sport we set benchmarks in each event that dont correlate to anotehr event. But we do have the benefit of history and hindsight.

[TrackFan4Ever]

Would you have given her the award if she only ran 200s in 2012?

No, because she only can it 4 times, this may be acceptable in multi events but not in individual ones if you want to be AOY, especially as the Zagreb race was totally pointless. She didn't run 1 200m in a European DL

I'd rather you ran against everyone, every week and lost a couple of times (Aries), than ran sparingly and stayed undefeated.

I guess I should have made my question clearer for you. If she had only run 200s (obviously more than 4) and went undefeated, would you have given her the award?

[mump boy]

Would you have given her the award if she only ran 200s in 2012?

No, because she only can it 4 times, this may be acceptable in multi events but not in individual ones if you want to be AOY, especially as the Zagreb race was totally pointless. She didn't run 1 200m in a European DL

I'd rather you ran against everyone, every week and lost a couple of times (Aries), than ran sparingly and stayed undefeated.

I guess I should have made my question clearer for you. If she had only run 200s (obviously more than 4) and went undefeated, would you have given her the award?

It has nothing to do with what other events she ran, she just didn't run enough 200m and what she did in other events doesn't add enough to her accomplishments to compensate.

I really like Allyson but she just hasn't done enough this year to be considered AOY, i honestly can't believe anyone else thinks she has

[TrackFan4Ever]

I will leave this alone. It was a very basic question that did not ask about any other events or if you liked her or not. I simply asked if she had run more 200s and went undefeated would you have given her the AOY?

I guess Felix needed to run more 200s to convince you that she is better than the DL champ Charonda Williams. That would have proved a whole lot.

I think we all know what Felix's body of work would have been if she had taken the easy route of just focusing on the 200. Evidently, you need concrete proof that such would be the case. Others were persuaded by what she did at the OT and the Olympics.

If athletes in the past can win AOY without winning gold in their main event at the Olympics or WCs, I am comfortable with Felix winning based upon what she did in OT and Olympics. Put me in that group that understands why she won!

[Flumpy]

We all understand why she won and it had nothing to do with what she did on the track.

[mump boy]

I will leave this alone. It was a very basic question that did not ask about any other events or if you liked her or not. I simply asked if she had run more 200s and went undefeated would you have given her the AOY?

The premise of your question is that whatever she had done i wouldn't vote for her as AOY. I wouldn't care if she 'only' ran 200m or not, she just needed to run more 200m at the same level (or preferably better)

If we're awarding AOY for 4 races why is no one talking about Cakir with her flawless 3 race season, Tirunesh with her 10k victories and additional 5k victory in NY and London medal or Tika Gelana with her London victory and Rotterdam 5th on all time list ?

Because some people are being swayed by her relay medals, nationality and PR abilities.

She's very lucky there are so few female candidates this year or she's be WAY down my list

[TrackFan4Ever]

Yep, Felix's selection had nothing to do with with what she did on the track. Utter stupidity!

[26mi235]

We all understand why she won and it had nothing to do with what she did on the track.

This has to be the stupidest thing that you wrote in this exchange. If it nothing to do with her winning the award she would have won it if she had failed to make the Finals in any of her events and ran a 58 and took US out of the medals.

Clearly, her performances were a major part of her winning the award. They were assessed by someone with different criteria (e.g., the 4x400 counted a bunch) and who may well have had some of the preferences you imply. However, "...nothing to do with what she did on the track." is such a vehement expression of your position as to make your comment mean less than it should. [Remember, I think she should only be somewhere around 4 and it might be further down than that if I worked it through.]

[Gabriella]

TrackFan4Ever & 26mi235 come on, we know Flumpy didn't mean it literally, he was just making a point.

The problem with comparing track events to field and multievents, is that when there is a great track performance it's right there in our faces, it has impact, boom! Other events don't have the benefit of this. Felix's 21.69 was a superb performance, run under the pressure of the 100m selection hoo-ha. It was hyped up and she faced that pressure and ran one of the fastest times ever. Her Olympic gold was perhaps slightly less impressive, because SAFP was perhaps closer than expected and because we were probably expecting faster.

But Ennis competes in an event that doesn't have the same obvious impact. You have to understand the event and scoring system (to some degree) you have to follow her over two days worth of events, understanding how she fares against her rivals when not directly competing against them. It is far easier for the casual fan to appreciate Felix's run/s. But this isnt Ennis's fault and when selecting AOY it shouldnt matter.

The same goes for the field eventers. Most TV stations don't show more than 5 or 6 throws from teh whole final, and in the apst some have only shown the three medal winning throws. How can these throwers compete with the likes of the sprinters? Occsaionally we do get to see more of the competition, but as with the multis you have to invest a bit more in watching these events unfold.

Unfortunately it seems the IAAF just wants to appease the casual fan.

[Gabriella]

Putting their performances into an Olympic context, let us also not forget that in her opening event, the 100mh, Ennis ran a time that would have won gold in every Olympics since the 100mh was introduced bar 04 and 88, where she would have won bronze and silver respectively. That is an amazing achievement for a multi eventer. On her overall score, only JJK's 88 and 92 Olympic wins are higher.

On the other hand, Felix's time wouldn't have won gold in 08, 88, 84 or 00, (the latter depending on how you see that race in hindsight.)

This is another plus to Ennis IMO.

[mump boy]

The women's field is so weak this year i may be coming round to Jess but at the moment it's still Val. As for POY i can only think of about 3 worthy ones

[26mi235]

TrackFan4Ever & 26mi235 come on, we know Flumpy didn't mean it literally, he was just making a point.

He did not mean it literally, but he meant to be demeaning in saying it, and as such he should watch what he says. Hyperbole on the positive sign is hyperbole; on the negative side it is hard not to have a nasty edge to it.

If he is mad, he should to be mad at the IAAF; if he points it at AF it is simply unacceptable.

As for the T&FN selectors, there may be some biases but they tend to even out, although the field events are probably under-rated a bit. That is why the T&FN rankings are the currency of contracts etc.

[Flumpy]

If he is mad, he should to be mad at the IAAF; if he points it at AF it is simply unacceptable.

But it wasn't at Allyson so I have no idea what you are on about. Allyson Felix is great. A lovely lady, a real talent and complete class act. I couldn't have been happier that she finally won her Olympic Gold medal. I have absolutely no problem with her at all. It's the IAAF's ridiculous decision that I take issue with.

I don't know why you're so touchy on the subject. No one has a bad word to say about Allyson but clearly her season did not warrant AOY consideration from any objective voter and it doesn't make me 'nasty' or 'demeaning' to point that out.

[mump boy]

It's a given the AF overall season wasn't better than Jess or Val but

Jen Suhr competed 14 times this year and won 12, the other 2 were NH she won OG Gold and jumped the 2nd best ever indoors (Only 2 other have ever gone higher outdoors)

Sally Pearson won 8/9 and ran 12.35 !! a time only 4 other people have ever run and that hasn't been run since 2000 except by Sally last year

Yelena Lashmanova set a WR at the OG in the 20k walk (what was i doing when this happened because i have no recollection at all)

Sandra Perkovic won 13/14 contest including European and Olympic champs

and how anyone can think Allyson's season was better than these is beyond me !!

[t_monk]

It's a given the AF overall season wasn't better than Jess or Val but

Jen Suhr competed 14 times this year and won 12, the other 2 were NH she won OG Gold and jumped the 2nd best ever indoors (Only 2 other have ever gone higher outdoors)

Sally Pearson won 8/9 and ran 12.35 !! a time only 4 other people have ever run and that hasn't been run since 2000 except by Sally last year

Yelena Lashmanova set a WR at the OG in the 20k walk (what was i doing when this happened because i have no recollection at all)

Sandra Perkovic won 13/14 contest including European and Olympic champs

and how anyone can think Allyson's season was better than these is beyond me !!

I don't think she should have even gotten in the top 3 much less win the whole thing.

[26mi235]

Undefeated at her event [I might have missed this a loss, sorry for that failing], did well in other events, including a relay leg that counts for IAAF (apparently - you can quibble about the criteria, but if that is included as counting, then it counts) and did very credibly outside her primary event. The relatively small number of competitions are a result of competing in other events, but she ran six 200s just in the OT/OG duo, so it is not that little, and she looked dominant in those preliminary rounds -- she was dusting everyone in terms of the apparent performance level.

Yes, I do not have her at the top, but to say that she deserves no consideration is to go in the face of even the title of this thread started by someone that is not a primary Felix fan (Tuariki). Again, extreme statement that she does not belong in consideration is absurd. And voicing such an extreme position makes me think that the writer does not have as valuable of an opinion as if they did not write such silliness. That she won the IAAF variant certainly is consistent with the position that she at least belongs in the conversation.

[mump boy]

IAAF PR fest is over so i'm now speaking about T&FN where thankfully relays and heats !! should not be taken into consideration

[eldanielfire]

IAAF PR fest is over so i'm now speaking about T&FN where thankfully relays and heats !! should not be taken into consideration

Why shouldn't relays and heats be considered?

[mump boy]

IAAF PR fest is over so i'm now speaking about T&FN where thankfully relays and heats !! should not be taken into consideration

Why shouldn't relays and heats be considered?

because T&FN rules say relays aren't and of course heats aren't !!

I'm very sure of my top 5 after that it becomes a free for all, there are 2 i've knocked out who could easily be my 6-7 !!

[ATK]

IAAF PR fest is over so i'm now speaking about T&FN where thankfully relays and heats !! should not be taken into consideration

Why shouldn't relays and heats be considered?

because T&FN rules say relays aren't and of course heats aren't !!

Are you sure heats aren't considered? If an athlete was to break a WR/CR/OR in the heats, would it not count towards their yearly ranking for T&FN?

[gh]

yes, of course we include heats....

[mump boy]

yes, of course we include heats....

Please explain how heats are evaluated in such considerations ??

When counting someone's winning streak heats are not counted as qualifying for next round is the object not necessarily winning. Obviously if someone sets WR or runs really fast heats become relevant but to suggest that 'looking dominant in preliminary rounds' should be considered in AOY assessment seems ludicrous and grasping at straws to me.

Do you also get marked down if you're not dominant in heats but are in finals ?!!

BY the way, while looking at ancillary marks it should be noted that Valerie has the top 25 marks of the year !! has there ever been such dominance ??

[26mi235]

Losses, for one.

[aaronk]

As I just posted my male AOY Top Ten picks, here's the female version:

1. Jessica Ennis (Maybe more sentimentality than reality, but gotta go with the LONDON OG "S.T.A.R."!!! Plus twice over 6900 and an OG Gold. Small matters, I know.)
2. Allyson Felix (I just can NOT discount the 4X100 relay!! With that, and her 200-100 performances, she's an easy #2......or #1??)
3. Shelly Ann Fraser-Pryce (Rating the women 2 through 10 is VERY difficult!! SAFP squeaks into 3rd.)
4. Sanya Richards-Ross (Again, barely misses #3 and is inches ahead of #5.)
5. Barbara Spotakova (Most consistent in an INconsistent event!!)
6. Valerie Adams (On sympathy alone, wanted to give her 2nd, or even first!!)
7. Anna Chicherova (Several female field-eventers to choose from. She beat an excellent HJ field!!)
8. Carmelita Jeter (Again, her part in THAT relay speaks volumes!! Plus the 100-200!!)
9. Tirinish Dibaba (IF she had won both the 5K and 10K, MUCH higher!!)
10. Sooooo hard to choose #10. Could be Antyukh, Savinova, Yaripova, Reese, Suhr, Perkovic, Lysenko!! I'll close my eyes (and mind!!!) and go with........Sandra Perkovic!!

[26mi235]

Adams? want to edit the list just once?

[Tuariki]

As I just posted my male AOY Top Ten picks, here's the female version:

1. Jessica Ennis (Maybe more sentimentality than reality, but gotta go with the LONDON OG "S.T.A.R."!!! Plus twice over 6900 and an OG Gold. Small matters, I know.)
2. Allyson Felix (I just can NOT discount the 4X100 relay!! With that, and her 200-100 performances, she's an easy #2......or #1??)
3. Shelly Ann Fraser-Pryce (Rating the women 2 through 10 is VERY difficult!! SAFP squeaks into 3rd.)
4. Sanya Richards-Ross (Again, barely misses #3 and is inches ahead of #5.)
5. Barbara Spotakova (Most consistent in an INconsistent event!!)
6. Valerie Adams (On sympathy alone, wanted to give her 2nd, or even first!!)
7. Anna Chicherova (Several female field-eventers to choose from. She beat an excellent HJ field!!)
8. Carmelita Jeter (Again, her part in THAT relay speaks volumes!! Plus the 100-200!!)
9. Tirinish Dibaba (IF she had won both the 5K and 10K, MUCH higher!!)
10. Sooooo hard to choose #10. Could be Antyukh, Savinova, Yaripova, Reese, Suhr, Perkovic, Lysenko!! I'll close my eyes (and mind!!!) and go with........Sandra Perkovic!!

Spotakova and SAFP were each beaten 3 times. SRR had a loss.

Adams and Perkovic undefeated

[mump boy]

Losses, for one.

What does this mean ??

[mump boy]

As I just posted my male AOY Top Ten picks, here's the female version:

1. Jessica Ennis (Maybe more sentimentality than reality, but gotta go with the LONDON OG "S.T.A.R."!!! Plus twice over 6900 and an OG Gold. Small matters, I know.)
2. Allyson Felix (I just can NOT discount the 4X100 relay!! With that, and her 200-100 performances, she's an easy #2......or #1??)
3. Shelly Ann Fraser-Pryce (Rating the women 2 through 10 is VERY difficult!! SAFP squeaks into 3rd.)
4. Sanya Richards-Ross (Again, barely misses #3 and is inches ahead of #5.)
5. Barbara Spotakova (Most consistent in an INconsistent event!!)
6. Valerie Adams (On sympathy alone, wanted to give her 2nd, or even first!!)
7. Anna Chicherova (Several female field-eventers to choose from. She beat an excellent HJ field!!)
8. Carmelita Jeter (Again, her part in THAT relay speaks volumes!! Plus the 100-200!!)
9. Tirinish Dibaba (IF she had won both the 5K and 10K, MUCH higher!!)
10. Sooooo hard to choose #10. Could be Antyukh, Savinova, Yaripova, Reese, Suhr, Perkovic, Lysenko!! I'll close my eyes (and mind!!!) and go with........Sandra Perkovic!!

Do you actually get to vote ?

I really hope not, because you CAN AND MUST discount the relays

Have you just picked your favourite athletes ? because this list has NOTHING to do with achievement

[nevetsllim]

2. Allyson Felix (I just can NOT discount the 4X100 relay!! With that, and her 200-100 performances, she's an easy #2......or #1??)

I fail to see how Felix's 100m campaign strengthens her AOY credentials.

I'd also put Lashmanova and Gelana inside the top-10.

[Flumpy]

As I just posted my male AOY Top Ten picks, here's the female version:

1. Jessica Ennis (Maybe more sentimentality than reality, but gotta go with the LONDON OG "S.T.A.R."!!! Plus twice over 6900 and an OG Gold. Small matters, I know.)
2. Allyson Felix (I just can NOT discount the 4X100 relay!! With that, and her 200-100 performances, she's an easy #2......or #1??)
3. Shelly Ann Fraser-Pryce (Rating the women 2 through 10 is VERY difficult!! SAFP squeaks into 3rd.)
4. Sanya Richards-Ross (Again, barely misses #3 and is inches ahead of #5.)
5. Barbara Spotakova (Most consistent in an INconsistent event!!)
6. Valerie Adams (On sympathy alone, wanted to give her 2nd, or even first!!)
7. Anna Chicherova (Several female field-eventers to choose from. She beat an excellent HJ field!!)
8. Carmelita Jeter (Again, her part in THAT relay speaks volumes!! Plus the 100-200!!)
9. Tirinish Dibaba (IF she had won both the 5K and 10K, MUCH higher!!)
10. Sooooo hard to choose #10. Could be Antyukh, Savinova, Yaripova, Reese, Suhr, Perkovic, Lysenko!! I'll close my eyes (and mind!!!) and go with........Sandra Perkovic!!

I feel like you must have been watching different season to everybody else???

[26mi235]

Losses, for one.

What does this mean ??

If you lose and do not advance it goes as an (important) loss for the athlete in a heat/prelim.

[aaronk]

As I just posted my male AOY Top Ten picks, here's the female version:

1. Jessica Ennis (Maybe more sentimentality than reality, but gotta go with the LONDON OG "S.T.A.R."!!! Plus twice over 6900 and an OG Gold. Small matters, I know.)
2. Allyson Felix (I just can NOT discount the 4X100 relay!! With that, and her 200-100 performances, she's an easy #2......or #1??)
3. Shelly Ann Fraser-Pryce (Rating the women 2 through 10 is VERY difficult!! SAFP squeaks into 3rd.)
4. Sanya Richards-Ross (Again, barely misses #3 and is inches ahead of #5.)
5. Barbara Spotakova (Most consistent in an INconsistent event!!)
6. Valerie Adams (On sympathy alone, wanted to give her 2nd, or even first!!)
7. Anna Chicherova (Several female field-eventers to choose from. She beat an excellent HJ field!!)
8. Carmelita Jeter (Again, her part in THAT relay speaks volumes!! Plus the 100-200!!)
9. Tirinish Dibaba (IF she had won both the 5K and 10K, MUCH higher!!)
10. Sooooo hard to choose #10. Could be Antyukh, Savinova, Yaripova, Reese, Suhr, Perkovic, Lysenko!! I'll close my eyes (and mind!!!) and go with........Sandra Perkovic!!

Do you actually get to vote ?

I really hope not, because you CAN AND MUST discount the relays

Have you just picked your favourite athletes ? because this list has NOTHING to do with achievement

In a sense, yes to your last question, as I tend to rate things emotionally rather than sticking to facts and reality.
I know we can't count relays, but how can I ignore such an outstanding WR as that 40.82??

2. Allyson Felix (I just can NOT discount the 4X100 relay!! With that, and her 200-100 performances, she's an easy #2......or #1??)

I fail to see how Felix's 100m campaign strengthens her AOY credentials.

I'd also put Lashmanova and Gelana inside the top-10.

I considered the walkers, but decided against them in my rankings....emphasis on "MY"!!

[Tuariki]

It would appear obvious that Aaronk in attempting to justify his "interesting" selection choices went back to his high school mathematics and remembered that when you multiply a minus by a minus you come up with a positive.

[mump boy]

As I just posted my male AOY Top Ten picks, here's the female version:

1. Jessica Ennis (Maybe more sentimentality than reality, but gotta go with the LONDON OG "S.T.A.R."!!! Plus twice over 6900 and an OG Gold. Small matters, I know.)
2. Allyson Felix (I just can NOT discount the 4X100 relay!! With that, and her 200-100 performances, she's an easy #2......or #1??)
3. Shelly Ann Fraser-Pryce (Rating the women 2 through 10 is VERY difficult!! SAFP squeaks into 3rd.)
4. Sanya Richards-Ross (Again, barely misses #3 and is inches ahead of #5.)
5. Barbara Spotakova (Most consistent in an INconsistent event!!)
6. Valerie Adams (On sympathy alone, wanted to give her 2nd, or even first!!)
7. Anna Chicherova (Several female field-eventers to choose from. She beat an excellent HJ field!!)
8. Carmelita Jeter (Again, her part in THAT relay speaks volumes!! Plus the 100-200!!)
9. Tirinish Dibaba (IF she had won both the 5K and 10K, MUCH higher!!)
10. Sooooo hard to choose #10. Could be Antyukh, Savinova, Yaripova, Reese, Suhr, Perkovic, Lysenko!! I'll close my eyes (and mind!!!) and go with........Sandra Perkovic!!

Do you actually get to vote ?

I really hope not, because you CAN AND MUST discount the relays

Have you just picked your favourite athletes ? because this list has NOTHING to do with achievement

In a sense, yes to your last question, as I tend to rate things emotionally rather than sticking to facts and reality.
I know we can't count relays, but how can I ignore such an outstanding WR as that 40.82??

2. Allyson Felix (I just can NOT discount the 4X100 relay!! With that, and her 200-100 performances, she's an easy #2......or #1??)

I fail to see how Felix's 100m campaign strengthens her AOY credentials.

I'd also put Lashmanova and Gelana inside the top-10.

I considered the walkers, but decided against them in my rankings....emphasis on "MY"!!

Oh, i thought AOY was an attempt to determine the athletes who had the best achievements of the year, not a list of people that we like we quite like for emotional reasons, no matter what their achievements !!

It is impossible to be totally unbiased but i try my best to keep emotion out of my choices