wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perković


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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby t_monk » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:33 am

Felix winning over those other girls..... travesty.... And I don't even dislike Felix >_>
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby bushop » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:37 am

No wonder our sport struggles.
Idiotic decision after idiotic decision... this is just one more in a long list.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby t_monk » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:49 am

26mi235 wrote:
mump boy wrote:So now were supposed to give extra credit to athletes if they make countries mainly populated by white people, feel better about themselves :?


No, for keeping the sport viable.


Sorry.... but this is a ludicrous... Even if she won.... 10x's over this still won't revitalize the sport.

BTW.... She won and I am still yet to see one television news report focusing on her winning. In fact I haven't seen one American based television news report mentioning that she won the damn thing. If I weren't watching BBC America I wouldn't even have know that she was the one that won the damn thing.

These guys clearly have no standard whatsoever in choosing who wins these AOY awards. The mere fact that Bolt won last year over Rudisha and Felix won over the likes of Adams, Ennis, SAFP, Pearson and Perkovic this year is a farce. This has nothing to do with skill and completely everything to do with likeability.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby TrackFan4Ever » Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:24 am

Congrats to AF!
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:22 pm

Congrats to AF,I really like her, but she should not even be second. I am guessing that the most unbiased panel will put her in about 5th (i.e., T&FN). They know more than I do and I almost always trust their opinions over those of individuals.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby ATK » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:10 pm

Felix winning is slightly ridiculous if you think about it. In theory, that means if someone has a pretty decent season, then only runs the relays at the Olympics/WC, they can achieve athlete of the year.
Not saying Felix only had a decent season, but I don't see it as AOY worthy.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby TrackFan4Ever » Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:54 pm

What's ridiculous is the theory that is being suggested.

The most unbiased panel is always the one that agrees with "my" decision. This is the same panel that selected SRR as AOD over Veronica Campbell. Yeah, that was real unbiased!
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby jamal00005 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:38 pm

TrackFan4Ever wrote:What's ridiculous is the theory that is being suggested.

The most unbiased panel is always the one that agrees with "my" decision. This is the same panel that selected SRR as AOD over Veronica Campbell. Yeah, that was real unbiased!


This is the one that always gets me going SRR over VCB as AOD LMAO .........YOU COULDNT MAKE IT UP. What exactly has she done to be worthy of this ? For me VCB deserves this but then again with the kind of biased selection panel making these decisions it is expected
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby j-a-m » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:49 am

I don't really get the uproar in this thread. In the other one, okay, you had all the guys with their WRs, and Bolt gets picked ahead of them. Here, I would've picked SAFP and Ennis ahead of Felix, but still, it doesn't seem that unreasonable.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby mump boy » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:10 pm

j-a-m wrote:I don't really get the uproar in this thread. In the other one, okay, you had all the guys with their WRs, and Bolt gets picked ahead of them. Here, I would've picked SAFP and Ennis ahead of Felix, but still, it doesn't seem that unreasonable.


Not Valerie who was unbeaten all season ? or Sandra Perkovic who was prolific and totally dominant ? :?
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby bushop » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:33 pm

mump boy wrote:Not Valerie who was unbeaten all season ? or Sandra Perkovic who was prolific and totally dominant ? :?

Amen.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby aaronk » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:42 pm

My TOTALLY bad!!
All this time, from my first comment onward (Mine was the first to comment on this thread!!), I've thought this to be about the TRACK AND FIELD NEWS AOY.......NOT any other, whether it's IAAF, ESPN, or whatever!!

Sorry, I guess I should have read the initial post a bit more carefully!

But as to the IAAF awards, I not only disagree with their choice, but I have NO or LITTLE respect for the award itself!!

To me, it's not much different than the Oscar's, the Emmy's, the Grammy's, the National Book Award's, even the Nobel's!!

They're all either totally political, or they play to sentimental favorites, or they lean to who's more currently popular!!

All of which have NOTHING to do with who's BEST!!

Which is what AOY should be all about!!

In the T&FN sense of the term, I still choose Jessica Ennis!!
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby GMH454 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:01 pm

mump boy wrote:
j-a-m wrote:I don't really get the uproar in this thread. In the other one, okay, you had all the guys with their WRs, and Bolt gets picked ahead of them. Here, I would've picked SAFP and Ennis ahead of Felix, but still, it doesn't seem that unreasonable.


Not Valerie who was unbeaten all season ? or Sandra Perkovic who was prolific and totally dominant ? :?


agreed, these girls got out voted on the "female athlete with more sex appeal "
funny how female athlete awards come down to who has greater sex appeal sometimes rather than true merit

Val .... you rule, girl..

makes the T F N award even more meaningful
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby j-a-m » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:04 pm

The events in which SAFP, Felix, Ennis compete have tougher competition and/or are a better measure of athletic ability than the events in which Adams, Perkovic compete. That's why SAFP, Felix, Ennis should be ahead of those others.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby mump boy » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:44 pm

j-a-m wrote:The events in which SAFP, Felix, Ennis compete have tougher competition and/or are a better measure of athletic ability than the events in which Adams, Perkovic compete. That's why SAFP, Felix, Ennis should be ahead of those others.


Unquantifiable, biased and TOTALLY irrelevant
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:31 pm

[quote="aaronk"
To me, it's not much different than the Oscar's, the Emmy's, the Grammy's, the National Book Award's, even the Nobel's!!

They're all either totally political, or they play to sentimental favorites, or they lean to who's more currently popular!!
[/quote]

A lot of that politics over quality in those Nobel Prizes (you might leave aside the Peace, as it is done in a different manner).
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby ATK » Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:00 pm

j-a-m wrote:The events in which SAFP, Felix, Ennis compete have tougher competition and/or are a better measure of athletic ability than the events in which Adams, Perkovic compete. That's why SAFP, Felix, Ennis should be ahead of those others.

If thats the case then the top heptathlete should be the AOY every year....

If someone like Adams dominates her event, regardless if event is not as good of a measure of complete athleticism as Ennis, or no one was throwing as far as in the past, if she was able to be above and beyond the competition THIS YEAR, then she is deserving.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby t_monk » Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:26 pm

ATK wrote:
j-a-m wrote:The events in which SAFP, Felix, Ennis compete have tougher competition and/or are a better measure of athletic ability than the events in which Adams, Perkovic compete. That's why SAFP, Felix, Ennis should be ahead of those others.

If thats the case then the top heptathlete should be the AOY every year....

If someone like Adams dominates her event, regardless if event is not as good of a measure of complete athleticism as Ennis, or no one was throwing as far as in the past, if she was able to be above and beyond the competition THIS YEAR, then she is deserving.


Co-Sign!
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby Tuariki » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:44 am

j-a-m wrote:The events in which SAFP, Felix, Ennis compete have tougher competition and/or are a better measure of athletic ability than the events in which Adams, Perkovic compete. That's why SAFP, Felix, Ennis should be ahead of those others.


What a a load of total tripe. Speed is not the only measure of athletic ability (SAFP and Felix).

And while Ennis is an awesome athlete and an awesome looking athlete, she is, as with nearly all multi-eventers, not able to cut it in an individual event - although she may prove me wrong in the 100H if she focuses on that event alone. I find it difficult to rate as AOY an athlete who can only throw the javelin 47.49 when the WR is just a little bit further.

By j-a-m's moronic logic then the AOY would have to be awarded to the best marathoner every year, given there are a hell of a lot more people running marathons than the 100m or 200m or any other event.

Also by j-a-m's stupid logic then perhaps Bolt shouldn't be AOY because when he is on song and not injured he does not have any competition either. How pathetic that because an athlete completely dominates her event (a la Adams and Perkovic) that some idiot thinks this devalues their performances.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:18 pm

When the rewards are greatest in an area that they draw the greatest competition. It happens everywhere and always. Why the implications of this are so indigestible to some is always a surprise, but it often leads to them drawing the wrong conclusions (or at least failing to draw the sometimes obvious ones).
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby bushop » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:49 pm

The IAAF decision makes me more curious as to who will win Track & Field News' wAOY award.

Your thoughts?
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby gh » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:47 am

Tuariki wrote:....
By j-a-m's moronic logic.... Also by j-a-m's stupid logic...



Do come back and play with us in a while when you learn to be a tad more civil with your fellow posters.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby bushop » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:29 am

j-a-m wrote:The events in which SAFP, Felix, Ennis compete... are a better measure of athletic ability than the events in which Adams, Perkovic compete. That's why SAFP, Felix... should be ahead of those others.

What is your measure?

I've know many flat sprinters who struggled to kick a ball or catch a frisbee = no coordination.
All world class throwers have high-end kinesthetic (athletic) sense... they have to if they want to produce effective technique.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:32 pm

bushop wrote:
j-a-m wrote:The events in which SAFP, Felix, Ennis compete... are a better measure of athletic ability than the events in which Adams, Perkovic compete. That's why SAFP, Felix... should be ahead of those others.

What is your measure?

I've know many flat sprinters who struggled to kick a ball or catch a frisbee = no coordination.
All world class throwers have high-end kinesthetic (athletic) sense... they have to if they want to produce effective technique.


You are missing the point. The 100 and similar sprints are the glamor events with the greatest remuneration. Thus, they get more people pushing harder for those events. Do you think that there are only one or two people in the US capable for walking under 4 hours for the 50km? There are not enough willing to work at it given that the rewards are rather modest. Events with lower earnings potential draw less interest and hence less competition.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby j-a-m » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:49 pm

ATK wrote:If thats the case then the top heptathlete should be the AOY every year....

There are many different events in t&f, so you need some sort of criteria to compare those events when you vote for something like athlete of the year; those criteria can either be explicit or implicit.

As part of those criteria I don't think it's useful how much an athlete dominated their event within a given year; that could just be for a lack of competition. The following three criteria, on the other hand, I do consider useful in comparing different events:

- performances compared to all time bests;
- level of worldwide competition in that event;
- overall athletic ability.

With respect to overall athletic ability, multi eventers will look good every year, sure, but it's only one of many criteria. What Ennis did in London compares favorably to all-time bests in the event; that's not the case for multi eventers every year.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby Gabriella » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:40 am

When I look at AOY I look at the following:

Win/loss record against competitors
Times/distances/marks (their top mark but also marks across the whole season)
Medals won (I don't consider relays)
Margin of victory
Historical perspective (is it a new event? Past seasons of athletes in the same event etc)
and then, to a lesser extent, how competitive that event is compared to other AOY nominations.

And my winners are as follows (with analysis to follow in next post)

Win/loss record - Adams
Times/distances/marks - Ennis
Medals won - SAFP
Margin of victory - Ennis
Historical perspective - Ennis
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby Gabriella » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:43 am

Felix does well in the "time/distance/mark" in terms of her best mark (historically) as she ran the 6th fastest time ever and goes 4th on the all-time list. But SAFP equals her here with 7th fastest/4th on list and Ennis is there too with 12th best mark/5th on list. Looking at their full set of marks, it's more hazy; SAFP's next best mark is 19th on the all-time list, while Felix's is 46th. Ennis's next best is 18th. Looking at the whole season, Felix's races over 200m are a handful, so it's hard to compare her 200 season agaisnt SAFP's 100m season, where the latter ran more and had more opportunity to run faster...but also lose.
Unfortunately, due to whatever reason, Adams and Perkovic's bests are much lower in the all-time lists so they lose out here.
Win/Loss record, Felix, Ennis and Adams do very well. Perkovic too. SAFP not so well.
Medals won, SAFP wins with gold and silver. Her most direct comparison is Felix who also has two events. However, event specialists Adams, Ennis and Perkovic dont have the opportunity. But either way, SAFP has the nod in medals won.
Margin of victory is where it's a bit easier to compare. Ennis wins here easily with her massive 306 pt winning margin, then possibly Perkovic with her 2m margin over Felix, then Adams and SAFP in that order.
Historically, for me, Ennis wins as the first woman to go over 6900 twice in one season since 1988. Felix is second as the first woman to go sub 21.7 since 1998.

And I’ve done all that and forgotten Sally Pearson , Anna Chicherova and Spotakova
:? :(
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby j-a-m » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:42 am

26mi235 wrote:The 100 and similar sprints are the glamor events with the greatest remuneration. Thus, they get more people pushing harder for those events.

That's correct. An additional aspect is that the sprints are easier to train for in developing countries than some other events, because you don't need that much equipment.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby j-a-m » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:46 am

Gabriella wrote:Felix does well in the "time/distance/mark" in terms of her best mark (historically) as she ran the 6th fastest time ever and goes 4th on the all-time list. But SAFP equals her here with 7th fastest/4th on list and Ennis is there too with 12th best mark/5th on list. Looking at their full set of marks, it's more hazy; SAFP's next best mark is 19th on the all-time list, while Felix's is 46th. Ennis's next best is 18th. Looking at the whole season, Felix's races over 200m are a handful, so it's hard to compare her 200 season agaisnt SAFP's 100m season, where the latter ran more and had more opportunity to run faster...but also lose.
Unfortunately, due to whatever reason, Adams and Perkovic's bests are much lower in the all-time lists so they lose out here.

Exactly; somehow those guys arguing for Adams or Perkovic seem to forget that.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby gh » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:03 am

No, the people pushing for Adams and Perković have a firmer sense of reality and what the true value of all-time lists is. It's obviously not remotely the same in all events.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:57 am

I think we tend to understand the perspective to take with respect to shot put marks from history. The only one to stay with her in this era has been shown to have had at least some of them assisted in a manner that likely applies to some(!) of those historical marks.

AF's marks were so good that people were apparently disappointed by her 21.x winning time over one of the best fields in the Games (at least T&F). As for Ennis topping the marks list -- I think she did well, but please, she need several hundred points to get to the front end of history; certainly a bit of a stretch, in my mind, to equate to better than multiple 21s (however, I grant that Gabriela has a broader and deeper grasp of the competitive landscape and I can be convinced to change my assessment; gh has changed mine plenty of times and Gabriela several).

I suppose that they way I look at it, this year, for both men and women, the difficulty in picking the top of the AOY listing is a measure of how good the year was. There are a LOT of deserving athletes out there and some good ones will not even make the top 10.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby bushop » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:33 pm

j-a-m wrote:- performances compared to all time bests;
- level of worldwide competition in that event;
- overall athletic ability.

Are these listed in order of importance?
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby j-a-m » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:37 pm

bushop wrote:
j-a-m wrote:- performances compared to all time bests;
- level of worldwide competition in that event;
- overall athletic ability.

Are these listed in order of importance?

No; that's in random oder.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perković

Postby mump boy » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:11 pm

Allyson's 200m time was probably the individual performance of the year but that and the OG are not enough to rank particularly highly for me. It seemed to me that she did as little as possible over her premier event this year and nothing else she has done burnished her achievements, so she'll get severely marked down by me
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perković

Postby TrackFan4Ever » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:22 pm

Would you have given her the award if she only ran 200s in 2012?
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perković

Postby mump boy » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:38 am

TrackFan4Ever wrote:Would you have given her the award if she only ran 200s in 2012?


No, because she only can it 4 times, this may be acceptable in multi events but not in individual ones if you want to be AOY, especially as the Zagreb race was totally pointless. She didn't run 1 200m in a European DL :shock:

I'd rather you ran against everyone, every week and lost a couple of times (Aries), than ran sparingly and stayed undefeated.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perkovic

Postby Gabriella » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:40 am

26mi235 wrote:AF's marks were so good that people were apparently disappointed by her 21.x winning time over one of the best fields in the Games (at least T&F). As for Ennis topping the marks list -- I think she did well, but please, she need several hundred points to get to the front end of history; certainly a bit of a stretch, in my mind, to equate to better than multiple 21s (however, I grant that Gabriela has a broader and deeper grasp of the competitive landscape and I can be convinced to change my assessment; gh has changed mine plenty of times and Gabriela several).


I don't think Felix was any closer to 21.34 than Ennis was to 7291. I also don't think two sub 21's counts as 'multiple 21s'. IMO Ennis's 2 x 6900+ counts for far more than Felix's 2 x sub 22.

If we look at the last 20 years, there have only been two women to score 6900 pts or above; Shouaa once in 1996 and then Kluft once in 03, 04 and 07. Neither could make it twice over 6900 in the same season. JJK's 1988 season was the last time we have seen a woman score over 6900 twice in one season.

On the other hand, look at the 200m over the last 20 years, and we see many more women running 22.00 secs or under; Ottey, Torrance, Privalova, Jones, Miller, VCB, Felix herself, Stewart & Simpson.

You could argue the sprints are more competitive, the events are more developed than the heptathlon and I don't disagree. But equally everything and anything can go wrong in a heptathlon and the chance of hitting every event is a rare occurance. We've also seen that, overall, the best all round women do do the heptatlon, so it's not like we are 'missing' women to other events. Historically the event may have gained had Devers, Drechsler and Privalova focussed on the multis, but it does seem that whoever was good at multis generally does do it. So the event has what partcipants it can have. You are of course always going to have less women in the heptathlon because few women have the ability across 7 events; its not just about facilities.

Some other points: Felix also 'benefits' from the fact that she is really the only true elite 200m specialist out there right now. The other top women sprinters tend to concentrate more on either the 100 or 400 but there is no reason any of these women couldnt be great at 200m should they focus on it the way Felix does: Jeter, Simpson, Stewart, VCB, Richards. Back in the 90s and Ottey, Torrance and Privalova all paid equal attention to both sprints. It just doesnt happen now (not Felix's fault but it's a factor)

Of course, comparing arbitrary marks in different events can be meaningless, and as a sport we set benchmarks in each event that dont correlate to anotehr event. But we do have the benefit of history and hindsight.
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perković

Postby TrackFan4Ever » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:28 am

mump boy wrote:
TrackFan4Ever wrote:Would you have given her the award if she only ran 200s in 2012?


No, because she only can it 4 times, this may be acceptable in multi events but not in individual ones if you want to be AOY, especially as the Zagreb race was totally pointless. She didn't run 1 200m in a European DL :shock:

I'd rather you ran against everyone, every week and lost a couple of times (Aries), than ran sparingly and stayed undefeated.


I guess I should have made my question clearer for you. If she had only run 200s (obviously more than 4) and went undefeated, would you have given her the award?
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perković

Postby mump boy » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:40 am

TrackFan4Ever wrote:
mump boy wrote:
TrackFan4Ever wrote:Would you have given her the award if she only ran 200s in 2012?


No, because she only can it 4 times, this may be acceptable in multi events but not in individual ones if you want to be AOY, especially as the Zagreb race was totally pointless. She didn't run 1 200m in a European DL :shock:

I'd rather you ran against everyone, every week and lost a couple of times (Aries), than ran sparingly and stayed undefeated.


I guess I should have made my question clearer for you. If she had only run 200s (obviously more than 4) and went undefeated, would you have given her the award?


It has nothing to do with what other events she ran, she just didn't run enough 200m and what she did in other events doesn't add enough to her accomplishments to compensate.

I really like Allyson but she just hasn't done enough this year to be considered AOY, i honestly can't believe anyone else thinks she has :shock: :?
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Re: wAOY - Felix, SRR, Adams, Perković

Postby TrackFan4Ever » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:07 pm

I will leave this alone. It was a very basic question that did not ask about any other events or if you liked her or not. I simply asked if she had run more 200s and went undefeated would you have given her the AOY?

I guess Felix needed to run more 200s to convince you that she is better than the DL champ Charonda Williams. That would have proved a whole lot. :D

I think we all know what Felix's body of work would have been if she had taken the easy route of just focusing on the 200. Evidently, you need concrete proof that such would be the case. Others were persuaded by what she did at the OT and the Olympics.

If athletes in the past can win AOY without winning gold in their main event at the Olympics or WCs, I am comfortable with Felix winning based upon what she did in OT and Olympics. Put me in that group that understands why she won! :wink:
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