Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]


Main message board: for the discussion of topical track & field items only.

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby gh » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:17 pm

ahh, but last year nobody set a World Record in mainstream non-road event.
gh
 
Posts: 46333
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Dave » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:08 pm

gh wrote:ahh, but last year nobody set a World Record in mainstream non-road event.


And that tells me that Mr. Rudisha is the runaway favorite to be AOY.
Dave
 
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby tandfman » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:22 pm

Dave wrote:
gh wrote:ahh, but last year nobody set a World Record in mainstream non-road event.

And that tells me that Mr. Rudisha is the runaway favorite to be AOY.

I think gh was referring to the fact that this year, Eaton set a WR in a mainstream non-road event.
tandfman
 
Posts: 15043
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:18 pm

tandfman wrote:
Dave wrote:
gh wrote:ahh, but last year nobody set a World Record in mainstream non-road event.

And that tells me that Mr. Rudisha is the runaway favorite to be AOY.

I think gh was referring to the fact that this year, Eaton set a WR in a mainstream non-road event.


Well so did Rudisha.
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby tandfman » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:26 pm

Yes, but Eaton is undefeated.
tandfman
 
Posts: 15043
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:49 pm

tandfman wrote:Yes, but Eaton is undefeated.


Yes, that is true and DR is not... :cry:
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby ATK » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:17 pm

tandfman wrote:Yes, but Eaton is undefeated.

Im going with J-A-M and is recent statements.

Should Rudisha be penalized for racing more? Would you rank Rudisha equally if he only ran twice, the Kenyan trials and The Olympics?
ATK
 
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:00 pm

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby dbirds » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:24 pm

[quote][Hopefully it won't. It won't be on his cv for the year. The only time we include indoor marks is if they're the same as outdoors. So while the field events count, the 60 and 60 hurdles don't, banked track 400s, don't, etc,. etc. And that includes the men's kept, which rewards a whole different skill set than the decathlon./quote]

Since multi eventers compete so in frequent then I would think indoor heptathlons should be considered
dbirds
 
Posts: 514
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:54 am

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby lionelp1 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:10 am

This AOY really is crazy; how can you fairly compare probably the greatest individual track and field performance at the OG in a WR and undefeated except a blip in his last race of the year, with Eaton's outstanding WR in the States and his victory in the OG.
Answer is, you cannot compare objectively, merely subjective as the AOY thing is nearly every year.

The perfect example of the aphorism " comparisons are odious " and impossible.
lionelp1
 
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:48 am

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby EPelle » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:12 am

What impact have Rudisha and Eaton had on their events? To me, the AOY is beyond winning and setting good marks. The athlete of the year is s/he who, in addition to setting good marks and accumulates a great winning percentage over the course of the season, has the greatest impact on their event. And, ultimately, on the sport. Rudisha's not only set a world record, won the Olympics and had only one loss on the season, he's elevated the playing field for others competing against him. Eight personal records and four national records from the world's elite have been set in his last two races as have two world junior records. That's impact. Has Eaton had the same impact? Bolt has more losses than Rudisha, and had them on home soil in national competition.
Last edited by EPelle on Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
EPelle
 
Posts: 21442
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby 18.99s » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:08 am

mump boy wrote:Also the idea that his WR is worth more because it has stood for longer is nonsense considering Rudisha beat his own mark ? if he hadn't bothered to run WR records before he would have broken one that had stood for 15 years


When looking at how long the WR stood, the athlete's own previous WRs shouldn't count. In the battle of WR longevity with the current WR holder vs. everybody else in history, I go back to the record held by the previous athlete, and performances by other athletes that are better than the previous WR holder but not good enough to be a new record.

So IMO Rudisha is still pummeling Kipketer's 15-year-old record, not breaking a "mere" 2-year-old record, because Rudisha alone has performed better than the 1997 record. And if Eaton broke the WR again in London, that would be a further assault on Sebrle's 2001 record, not breaking a "mere" 6-week-old record, because Eaton himself is the only one to have ever bettered the 2001 record.
18.99s
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:28 am

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Tuariki » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:31 am

jazzcyclist wrote:If Eaton did only the long jump and Ennis did only the 100 hurdles, they would have both been medal contenders.

This is true. But it wouldn't make them AOY contenders
Tuariki
 
Posts: 1300
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:39 pm
Location: Rohe o Te Whanau a Apanui

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby mal » Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:21 am

AOY - losing points in a meaningless race post Olympics is like discounting fat Elvis in his latter stages of life.

I'd still pay to watch him, and wouldn't be concerned with a few breathy notes too many.

I'd rather Rudisha ran on than shut it down. Clearly he was ready to hang it up, like last year when he was beaten post the big event, in a slow time.

If AOY is meaningful, who cares about his loss at 1:42 +
mal
 
Posts: 968
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby dbirds » Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:08 am

Eaton set world decathlon records in the 100m and long jump and set WRs in the heptathlon and decathlons! He beat a 2-time defending world
Champion Trey hardee twice. Many former
Decathletes and historians call Eaton the best decathlete ever. He has taken the event to
The next level. There's really nothing more he could
Have feasibly done in 2012!
dbirds
 
Posts: 514
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:54 am

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby mump boy » Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:27 am

dbirds wrote:Eaton set world decathlon records in the 100m and long jump and set WRs in the heptathlon and decathlons! He beat a 2-time defending world
Champion Trey hardee twice. Many former
Decathletes and historians call Eaton the best decathlete ever. He has taken the event to
The next level. There's really nothing more he could
Have feasibly done in 2012!


He may prove to be so in the future but at the moment NOBODY calls Eaton the best decathlete ever !! He's not even the best decathlete of this century at the moment

Beating a 2 time defending champion has no bearing nor does his Heptathlon achievements.
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby gh » Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:23 am

mump boy wrote:....

He may prove to be so in the future but at the moment NOBODY calls Eaton the best decathlete ever !! He's not even the best decathlete of this century at the moment
....


At the risk of parsing words too finely, there is no question that the Eaton is the best decathlete ever. The World Record (with much room to grow) adequately proves that.

However, is he the greatest decathlete ever? To paraphrase your correct statement, he's not even the greatest of this century. Yet.
gh
 
Posts: 46333
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Marlow » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:17 am

gh wrote:However, is he the greatest decathlete ever? To paraphrase your correct statement, he's not even the greatest of this century. Yet.

More semantics. Is he the Dec GOAT? Absolutely not. He needs a fuller CV. Is he the most talented/highest performing (irrespective of era) decathlete ever? I've got him in a tie with Thorpe right now, and if he adds a point to the WR or wins the OG Dec again, he's got my vote.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21119
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:23 am

What's a "CV"?
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10860
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:48 am

jazzcyclist wrote:What's a "CV"?


curriculum vitæ. The courses of my life. Sort of a resume.
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:39 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
tandfman wrote:
Dave wrote:
gh wrote:ahh, but last year nobody set a World Record in mainstream non-road event.

And that tells me that Mr. Rudisha is the runaway favorite to be AOY.

I think gh was referring to the fact that this year, Eaton set a WR in a mainstream non-road event.


Well so did Rudisha.


In gh's comment, last year no one (else) set a WR => thus winning despite being beaten at the end was more easily done. This year he faces a harder set of competition. Bolt was definitely better, Eaton broke an important WR under difficult conditions and shattered his own indoors, so when he did compete in a similar event (as similar as possible) he set the standard there too. Only doing two competitions is a major disadvantage in the 10, 200, etc., even the 1500; the 5000 matters a bit less, especially with doubling, but hurts you more in the 5000 ranking than overall ranking.

Eaton was competing at a high level in non-Multi events, and probably beating all the multi guys almost all the time, although you would not expect him to do so in the SP/DT/JT.

Thus, the multis create a conundrum for the AOY voting. Comparing Ennis and Eaton, a new WR vs three hundred points below puts him further up the quality totem pole.
26mi235
 
Posts: 16333
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby j-a-m » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:03 pm

18.99s wrote:When looking at how long the WR stood, the athlete's own previous WRs shouldn't count. In the battle of WR longevity with the current WR holder vs. everybody else in history, I go back to the record held by the previous athlete, and performances by other athletes that are better than the previous WR holder but not good enough to be a new record.

That's a valid point, and the correct way to look at it.
j-a-m
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 8:21 pm

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Dave » Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:01 pm

dbirds wrote:Eaton set world decathlon records in the 100m and long jump and set WRs in the heptathlon and decathlons! He beat a 2-time defending world
Champion Trey hardee twice. Many former
Decathletes and historians call Eaton the best decathlete ever. He has taken the event to
The next level. There's really nothing more he could
Have feasibly done in 2012!


I agree that there is nothing more he could have feasibly done this year. I am curious what others think he needs to do to be the GOAT. 3 WR in the Hep, the WR in the Decathlon, and now the gold medal. So, another gold medal? Another WR or two in the Hep? Another WR in the Dec?
I'll be shocked if he doesn't add another hundred points to the his Hep in the next couple years and another hundred or so in the Dec before it is all over. By the time he has finished with it, it will take 20-30 years for someone to beat his heptathlon record.
Dave
 
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:32 pm

j-a-m wrote:
18.99s wrote:When looking at how long the WR stood, the athlete's own previous WRs shouldn't count. In the battle of WR longevity with the current WR holder vs. everybody else in history, I go back to the record held by the previous athlete, and performances by other athletes that are better than the previous WR holder but not good enough to be a new record.

That's a valid point, and the correct way to look at it.


Correct way to look at it except that his WR got him last year's AOY points. The WR was a mere one year ago and only a little bit. What is more impressive is that very few WRs have been set in races longer than 400m in the OGs or even the WCs.
26mi235
 
Posts: 16333
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby dbirds » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:53 pm

General question: how many WRs have been set in worst conditions than Eatons?
dbirds
 
Posts: 514
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:54 am

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby mrbowie » Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:24 pm

Bolt AOY
mrbowie
 
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Lexington, Kentucky

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby bushop » Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:25 pm

dbirds wrote:General question: how many WRs have been set in worst conditions than Eatons?

Compared to the typical ½ mile WRs Rudisha's pacemakerless time trial sub-1:41 was in pretty harsh conditions.
bushop
 
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: near the toys and tape measures

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby nianchengyu » Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:50 pm

If Eaton can take another dec in WCallenges or adding some good LJs in DL,he will definately got my vote even if his below-par oly peformance.
nianchengyu
 
Posts: 714
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:32 pm

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby j-a-m » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:19 pm

26mi235 wrote:Correct way to look at it except that his WR got him last year's AOY points.

Good point, hadn't thought of that. We are after all talking about achievements in a given year, and not about career achievements.
j-a-m
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 8:21 pm

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby toyracer » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:12 am

mrbowie wrote:Bolt AOY


Being beaten at his national championships in each event takes the shine off the Bolt apple.
toyracer
 
Posts: 1759
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:38 pm
Location: Kingston, Jamaica

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby j-a-m » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:15 am

toyracer wrote:Being beaten at his national championships in each event takes the shine off the Bolt apple.

Then again, those were the Trials, with the main goal to finish in the top three to make the team. And Bolt easily did that.
j-a-m
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 8:21 pm

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby mump boy » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:18 am

j-a-m wrote:
toyracer wrote:Being beaten at his national championships in each event takes the shine off the Bolt apple.

Then again, those were the Trials, with the main goal to finish in the top three to make the team. And Bolt easily did that.


You really don't understand the concept of judging AOY do you ? :?
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby dbirds » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:20 am

If Eaton can take another dec in WCallenges or adding some good LJs in DL,he will definately got my vote even if his below-par oly peformance.


Below par? It was the 9th best Performance ever, 2nd best Olympic performance ever, ahead of Bryan Clay and Daley thompsons career best and his 2nd best ever mark!
dbirds
 
Posts: 514
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:54 am

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby j-a-m » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:29 am

mump boy wrote:You really don't understand the concept of judging AOY do you ? :?

Why don't you explain it to me then
j-a-m
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 8:21 pm

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby mump boy » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:53 am

Well for a start it's based on certifiable facts not undefinable personal opinion.

It doesn't matter what Bolt's motivation was at the trials, the FACT is that he lost twice and this will be held against him when it comes to judging him against his peers. Especially those that haven't lost and/or have set WR, it is impossible for him to be placed above them.
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Marlow » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:00 am

mump boy wrote:It doesn't matter what Bolt's motivation was at the trials, the FACT is that he lost twice and this will be held against him when it comes to judging him against his peers.

True dat. AOY is reserved for the guy was was on his game ALL the time, regardless of circumstances. I hate seeing a Bolt or Rudisha losing AOY on a smaller stage, but it is what it is. I'll be astounded if Eaton ain't it now.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21119
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby j-a-m » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:03 am

mump boy wrote:the FACT is that he lost twice

The fact is that he finished second in a race in which the first three places secured a spot on the Jamaican team for the Olympics.
j-a-m
 
Posts: 2449
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 8:21 pm

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby mump boy » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:08 am

j-a-m wrote:
mump boy wrote:the FACT is that he lost twice

The fact is that he finished second in a race in which the first three places secured a spot on the Jamaican team for the Olympics.


IRRELEVANT when judging AOY, they were loses. Or can anyone who loses say oh i wasn't motivated ? we have to deal in cold hard facts not surmisations.

Let's also consider the fact that he's spent the rest of the year conspicuously avoiding his biggest rivals, Harding, Rudisha and Merrit have ducked no one
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby bobguild76 » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:27 am

Dave wrote:
dbirds wrote:Eaton set world decathlon records in the 100m and long jump and set WRs in the heptathlon and decathlons! He beat a 2-time defending world
Champion Trey hardee twice. Many former
Decathletes and historians call Eaton the best decathlete ever. He has taken the event to
The next level. There's really nothing more he could
Have feasibly done in 2012!


I agree that there is nothing more he could have feasibly done this year. I am curious what others think he needs to do to be the GOAT. 3 WR in the Hep, the WR in the Decathlon, and now the gold medal. So, another gold medal? Another WR or two in the Hep? Another WR in the Dec?
I'll be shocked if he doesn't add another hundred points to the his Hep in the next couple years and another hundred or so in the Dec before it is all over. By the time he has finished with it, it will take 20-30 years for someone to beat his heptathlon record.


There is no question that Eaton, in the words of gh, is the best decathlete ever. No question that he has the potential to become the greatest Dec ever. To answer your GOAT question, let's look at Daley Thompson ...

Two OG golds,
4 WRs,
Undefeated 1979-1986, facing all his major challengers.

Give Eaton a few more years, and I think he could very well equal or eclipse DT's record. Then, we can talk about GOAT. I also think his Hep record, while the best ever, doesn't necessarily bolster his Dec cv. Eaton's forte is the running/jumping portion of the Dec, and the Hep is tilted towards that. So he is a natural fit for the Hep, even more so than the Dec.

I also agree with mump-boy's comment regarding Bolt ... yes, he had a stellar season, but the fact is he lost to Blake twice, and did not race him other than the Jamaican Trials and the Olympics. Similar lack of racing Gatlin & Gay outside of the Olympics. Whether it was his back or something else, the fact is he only faced his stiffest competitors once or twice. Rudisha faced his stiffest competitors far more frequently.
Last edited by bobguild76 on Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
bobguild76
 
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:39 pm

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby bushop » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:40 am

Marlow wrote:AOY is reserved for the guy was was on his game ALL the time, regardless of circumstances. I hate seeing a Bolt or Rudisha losing AOY on a smaller stage, but it is what it is. I'll be astounded if Eaton ain't it now.

For the sake if discussion. Would it hurt Bolt's AOY resumé if he ran, and lost, a 400m running 44-high.
bushop
 
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: near the toys and tape measures

Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY??

Postby Tuariki » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:51 am

bushop wrote:
Marlow wrote:AOY is reserved for the guy was was on his game ALL the time, regardless of circumstances. I hate seeing a Bolt or Rudisha losing AOY on a smaller stage, but it is what it is. I'll be astounded if Eaton ain't it now.

For the sake if discussion. Would it hurt Bolt's AOY resumé if he ran, and lost, a 400m running 44-high.

Given comments on wAOY thread does it hurt Eaton that he was 3rd in LJ at Walnut?
Tuariki
 
Posts: 1300
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:39 pm
Location: Rohe o Te Whanau a Apanui

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 9 guests