Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]


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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby unclezadok » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:32 pm

1. Merritt
2. Rudisha
3. Eaton
4. Bolt

or 1. Rudisha
2. Merritt
3. Eaton
4. Bolt

And the only award that matters is the T&F News Athlete of the Year...
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Dave » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:56 am

Did Bolt have a better year than Mo Farah?
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Flumpy » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:44 am

Dave wrote:Bolt and Farah will duke it out for 4th and 5th.


They probably will but they definitely shouldn't.

4th - Robert Harting
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Dave » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:02 pm

Flumpy wrote:
Dave wrote:Bolt and Farah will duke it out for 4th and 5th.


They probably will but they definitely shouldn't.

4th - Robert Harting


I'll take your word for that.

Though which had the superior year: Bolt or Farah?
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby mump boy » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:33 pm

Flumpy wrote:
Dave wrote:Bolt and Farah will duke it out for 4th and 5th.


They probably will but they definitely shouldn't.

4th - Robert Harting


I can go with that but i don't want to be too anti Usain either, he was amazing this year but is a victim of his own success, i'll have to give this on a bit of thought

Mo is also behind Lavillenie and maybe Ukhov
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:09 pm

mump, you ran one marathon - I might have thought that you might recognize how hard it is to race distances, especially the 5000/10,000 double (how many times did the Emperor/GOAT do that?). You have to have great endurance and great speed at the end of it; then you have to do it a second time after 19,600meters.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby mump boy » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:20 pm

26mi235 wrote:mump, you ran one marathon - I might have thought that you might recognize how hard it is to race distances, especially the 5000/10,000 double (how many times did the Emperor/GOAT do that?). You have to have great endurance and great speed at the end of it; then you have to do it a second time after 19,600meters.


Of course it's hard it's supposed to be but for me this is an award of the whole year not 1 week in August. 2 gold medals don't make up for a lamentable (if unbeaten) rest of the season. I know times are not as important as performance but being ranked 11th in 5k and 38th :shock: in 10k as well as having a rather lacklustre distance field at the moment means that Mo's achievements look rather less at closer inspection.

I feel the same way about Mo as i do about Allyson not enough meat outside of London

Imagine if Renauld or Ivan had the chance to compete in 2 different types of PV or HJ do they suddenly get double the kudos compared to people who don't even have the possibility to compete in 2 very similar events ? For me a double ads lustre to a season but does not a season make

Thankyou for remembering my marathon achievements, Geb has nothing to worry about i was more like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUEtBQNqU2E

:? :?
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:55 pm

The Olympics are about winning. The 10,000 is about competing and in case you did not notice there were not a heck of a lot of fast races this year, and he showed last year that he could win a fast race was well as kick hard. What he had to show this year was that he could complete the double that he did not quite pull off last year. He did absolutely everything that was on the agenda. Sprinters get to run a gazillion races, not those doing 5/10 doubles. When, by the way did you become a marks snob for distance races?

[That is too much; I understand your position, but I think you make far too much of minor non-faults. Too bad none of those others went undefeated in their double attempts.]
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby mump boy » Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:58 pm

26mi235 wrote:The Olympics are about winning. The 10,000 is about competing and in case you did not notice there were not a heck of a lot of fast races this year, and he showed last year that he could win a fast race was well as kick hard. What he had to show this year was that he could complete the double that he did not quite pull off last year. He did absolutely everything that was on the agenda. Sprinters get to run a gazillion races, not those doing 5/10 doubles. When, by the way did you become a marks snob for distance races?

[That is too much; I understand your position, but I think you make far too much of minor non-faults. Too bad none of those others went undefeated in their double attempts.]


I want a full competitive season, running fast against the best, not set up, poor quality, slow, non events which constituted his season outside of OG
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:12 pm

mump boy wrote:
26mi235 wrote:The Olympics are about winning. The 10,000 is about competing and in case you did not notice there were not a heck of a lot of fast races this year, and he showed last year that he could win a fast race was well as kick hard. What he had to show this year was that he could complete the double that he did not quite pull off last year. He did absolutely everything that was on the agenda. Sprinters get to run a gazillion races, not those doing 5/10 doubles. When, by the way did you become a marks snob for distance races?

[That is too much; I understand your position, but I think you make far too much of minor non-faults. Too bad none of those others went undefeated in their double attempts.]


I want a full competitive season, running fast against the best, not set up, poor quality, slow, non events which constituted his season outside of OG


Well, Farah ran 200x100m, Bolt ran 3x100 + 2x2x100m. Did anyone else in the five or ten have remotely the season that he did?

You probably also wanted Eaton to win half a dozen decathlons, and almost the best Olympic Deca and the best-ever Deca is just chopped liver to you too.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby mump boy » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:35 am

26mi235 wrote:
mump boy wrote:
26mi235 wrote:The Olympics are about winning. The 10,000 is about competing and in case you did not notice there were not a heck of a lot of fast races this year, and he showed last year that he could win a fast race was well as kick hard. What he had to show this year was that he could complete the double that he did not quite pull off last year. He did absolutely everything that was on the agenda. Sprinters get to run a gazillion races, not those doing 5/10 doubles. When, by the way did you become a marks snob for distance races?

[That is too much; I understand your position, but I think you make far too much of minor non-faults. Too bad none of those others went undefeated in their double attempts.]


I want a full competitive season, running fast against the best, not set up, poor quality, slow, non events which constituted his season outside of OG


Well, Farah ran 200x100m, Bolt ran 3x100 + 2x2x100m. Did anyone else in the five or ten have remotely the season that he did?

You probably also wanted Eaton to win half a dozen decathlons, and almost the best Olympic Deca and the best-ever Deca is just chopped liver to you too.


I would have liked to have seen Eaton complete another Deca but the ones he did contest where of the VERY highest quality as were some of his individual competitions his season bears no relation to Farah's 2 mile dawdle in B'ham, contrived non events against Collis Birmingham in London, the heats of the UK champs, or his Euro champs walkover

This is not a criticism of Mo, he did exactly what he set out to do this year and winning 2 Gold medals was the obvious priority and in the annuls he will go down in history BUT there are a number of people with superior OVERALL seasons
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby mump boy » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:41 am

Also the distance he ran is irrelevant, it's what he trains to do. I would suggest that running the 100m, 200, and 4x1 at 100% effort would take more out of him that 30k where only 800m was at full speed.

If we're going to use distance travelled to decide on AOY then presumably your vote goes to Sergey Kirdyapkin as he completed 50k without a break and massage or cryogenics chamber
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:03 am

The distance is not irrelevant because you race very few 5000s and, especially, 10,000s. You would not think it strange for someone to run only one or two (we now think it strange for someone even to do three).

Geb did not double in Atlanta because racing the 10,000 had done in his legs -- and this guy was the 5000m record holder.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby gh » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:10 am

I still haven't voted, but I'm leaning towards Eaton for the simplest of reasons: during the 2012 season (which is at issue here) he was unbeatable. The other two WR setters were not. Nor was Bolt.

You can argue that he only competed twice, but his level of superiority over the rest of the planet (which was merely led by the reigning 2-time world champ) was such that you can posit how ever many more decathlons you want for him, and he simply would not be beaten. His comfort margin was absolutely stupendous.

So that's my story, at least for today.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Flumpy » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:00 pm

26mi235 wrote:The distance is not irrelevant because you race very few 5000s and, especially, 10,000s. You would not think it strange for someone to run only one or two (we now think it strange for someone even to do three).


You're missing mump's point. The complaint isn't that Mo didn't run enough, it's the competition he raced against outside of the Olympics was pitiful.

If you are going to run very few races they need to be of top quality to avoid being marked down against people who competed against all of their top competitors throughout the season.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby mump boy » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:43 pm

gh wrote:I still haven't voted, but I'm leaning towards Eaton for the simplest of reasons: during the 2012 season (which is at issue here) he was unbeatable. The other two WR setters were not. Nor was Bolt.

You can argue that he only competed twice, but his level of superiority over the rest of the planet (which was merely led by the reigning 2-time world champ) was such that you can posit how ever many more decathlons you want for him, and he simply would not be beaten. His comfort margin was absolutely stupendous.

So that's my story, at least for today.


If David had chosen to only run 800m twice this year wouldn't he have TOTALLY dominated the field and had an 'absolutely stupendous" comfort margin ?

Also you get extra credit from me for putting yourself on the line week after week against the best. If you lose a couple of times while competing a lot, it is preferable to keeping a clean sheet by competing sparingly.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby gh » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:51 pm

mump boy wrote:....
If David had chosen to only run 800m twice this year wouldn't he have TOTALLY dominated the field and had an 'absolutely stupendous" comfort margin ?...


Not if one of the two races was Zürich! :evil:
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby mump boy » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:05 pm

gh wrote:
mump boy wrote:....
If David had chosen to only run 800m twice this year wouldn't he have TOTALLY dominated the field and had an 'absolutely stupendous" comfort margin ?...


Not if one of the two races was Zürich! :evil:


maybe he should have just done his national champs and the OG then :P
Last edited by mump boy on Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby gh » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:21 pm

but put more seriously: we discovered that within about a dozen races, all the other major contenders turned out to be beatable. I posit that no matter how many decathlons you had Eaton contest this year, he could not be beaten, plain and simple. His margin for error is that huge at this point.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ATK » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:22 pm

mump boy wrote:Also you get extra credit from me for putting yourself on the line week after week against the best. If you lose a couple of times while competing a lot, it is preferable to keeping a clean sheet by competing sparingly.

So because Eaton doesn't have that luxury he basically losses out?
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:46 pm

gh wrote:but put more seriously: we discovered that within about a dozen races, all the other major contenders turned out to be beatable. I posit that no matter how many decathlons you had Eaton contest this year, he could not be beaten, plain and simple. His margin for error is that huge at this point.


Since he is a multi guy, I think his other real competition was an Indoor Hept WR where he destroyed the field by about 10%, and that is pretty damn hard to do in the multis, modest competition or not.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby gh » Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:48 pm

As noted earlier, in the context of the T&FN vote, the heptathlon mark is not a consideration. It doesn't exist in that particular universe.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:34 pm

Yet, because the Decathlon athlete is so limited, hitting that homer does fill out the year, which some have carped does not have enough entries.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby bushop » Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:38 pm

mump boy wrote:
26mi235 wrote:mump,... you might recognize how hard it is to race distances, especially the 5k/10k double.
Imagine if Renauld or Ivan had the chance to compete in 2 different types of PV or HJ do they suddenly get double the kudos... ?

... or if they also awarded medals for the 1.75kg discus, 8kg hammer, 3m long javelin or 6kg shot put.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby gh » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:13 pm

T&FN's balloting has opened. Here's how one member/regular poster voted (no, we don't anticipate all votes being public), starting w/ Merritt

http://tracksuperfan.com/my-votes-for-a ... f-the-year
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:14 am

I would be hard-pressed to think of another voter to add that would be better than the one you selected. His explanations give a quick demonstration of why that is the case.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby gh » Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:38 pm

well, except that he got it wrong! :mrgreen:
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby mump boy » Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:48 pm

If i'd been able to post all day i was going to say that Kristian Pars has been overlooked so far, he would be my No 6
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby mump boy » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:13 pm

gh wrote:T&FN's balloting has opened. Here's how one member/regular poster voted (no, we don't anticipate all votes being public), starting w/ Merritt

http://tracksuperfan.com/my-votes-for-a ... f-the-year


3. Ashton Eaton (USA/decathlon)
It’s a tough year when an Olympic champion goes undefeated, breaks a world record, and only ranks third. Had Eaton not shut it down after the Olympics and done one more meet, I would have considered him for #1. But as it is, the two above him put together seasons that were just too strong to beat.


THIS ^
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Dave » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:27 pm

mump boy wrote:
26mi235 wrote:The Olympics are about winning. The 10,000 is about competing and in case you did not notice there were not a heck of a lot of fast races this year, and he showed last year that he could win a fast race was well as kick hard. What he had to show this year was that he could complete the double that he did not quite pull off last year. He did absolutely everything that was on the agenda. Sprinters get to run a gazillion races, not those doing 5/10 doubles. When, by the way did you become a marks snob for distance races?

[That is too much; I understand your position, but I think you make far too much of minor non-faults. Too bad none of those others went undefeated in their double attempts.]


I want a full competitive season, running fast against the best, not set up, poor quality, slow, non events which constituted his season outside of OG

By this definition, Eaton has a somewhat stronger case. Limited, though very strong competition left him undefeated, Olympic champion, with a WR. Too bad we can't count indoors.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby gh » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:50 pm

I'm thrilled by the way (personally, not from an "official" T&FN stance) to see superfan put Pars into his top 5. Nice to see somebody who understands how field events work.

Having said that, Harting (who was my AOY last year, as he was for 5 other insightful voters) remains as best in that category for me. Undefeated says tons to me.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby mump boy » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:52 am

gh wrote:I'm thrilled by the way (personally, not from an "official" T&FN stance) to see superfan put Pars into his top 5. Nice to see somebody who understands how field events work.

Having said that, Harting (who was my AOY last year, as he was for 5 other insightful voters) remains as best in that category for me. Undefeated says tons to me.


Harting will be my 5 (possibly 4) my major struggle is whether to knock out a gold medallist to include Yohan :?
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby tandfman » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:24 am

Yohan would certainly be somewhere in my top 10, and since there were more than 10 gold medalists, yes, I'd knock out more than one of them. (Actually, there are 22 individual events, so any top 10 must knock out a majority of the gold medalists.)

As for #1, I'm inclined to agree with gh. I don't see how you can fault Eaton. I might, under some circumstances, hold it against an uninjured athlete if he/she shut down his season after the Games, with plenty of Diamond League and other meets left. But in Eaton's case, there's no reason in the world why anyone would expect him to have competed again. He had a perfect season and, as gh pointed out, the other leading candidates did not.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby mump boy » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:46 am

tandfman wrote:Yohan would certainly be somewhere in my top 10, and since there were more than 10 gold medalists, yes, I'd knock out more than one of them. (Actually, there are 22 individual events, so any top 10 must knock out a majority of the gold medalists.)

As for #1, I'm inclined to agree with gh. I don't see how you can fault Eaton. I might, under some circumstances, hold it against an uninjured athlete if he/she shut down his season after the Games, with plenty of Diamond League and other meets left. But in Eaton's case, there's no reason in the world why anyone would expect him to have competed again. He had a perfect season and, as gh pointed out, the other leading candidates did not.


To win the IAAF Combined Events Challenge you have to have compete in 3 events. I see no problem with that being the base line for a complete season (and $30,000)

If we are awarding top marks for people who are unbeaten, why is no one even mentioning Cakir and her flawless 3 race season ? :?
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby tandfman » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:19 am

mump boy wrote:To win the IAAF Combined Events Challenge you have to have compete in 3 events. I see no problem with that being the base line for a complete season (and $30,000)

It would have made no sense at all for him to leave his training base and do any of the pre-Trials events in the CE Challenge. And do you really think he had any motivation to stay in training another month+ to compete in compete in Talence in September? $30,000 would have been plenty of motivation for you and me, but fortunately for him, that's now almost pocket change.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby mump boy » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:05 am

tandfman wrote:
mump boy wrote:To win the IAAF Combined Events Challenge you have to have compete in 3 events. I see no problem with that being the base line for a complete season (and $30,000)

It would have made no sense at all for him to leave his training base and do any of the pre-Trials events in the CE Challenge. And do you really think he had any motivation to stay in training another month+ to compete in compete in Talence in September? $30,000 would have been plenty of motivation for you and me, but fortunately for him, that's now almost pocket change.


Obviously AOY doesn't mean anything to him either

I thought US athletes were penniless because they couldn't tweet about sponsors for 3 weeks around the OG :?
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby bushop » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:25 am

mump boy wrote:I thought US athletes were penniless because they couldn't tweet about sponsors for 3 weeks around the OG :?

Some are.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby gh » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:36 am

tandfman wrote:
mump boy wrote:To win the IAAF Combined Events Challenge you have to have compete in 3 events. I see no problem with that being the base line for a complete season (and $30,000)

It would have made no sense at all for him to leave his training base and do any of the pre-Trials events in the CE Challenge. And do you really think he had any motivation to stay in training another month+ to compete in compete in Talence in September? $30,000 would have been plenty of motivation for you and me, but fortunately for him, that's now almost pocket change.


I agree that "having" to compete one more time is ridiculous, to be sure. Having said that, he could have not trained a day post-London, wandered over to Talence and still won handily. Of this I'm 100% certain. Just another reason he gets my AOY vote. I think (I'm not pushed to the wire yet, and voting for these things is a decision of biblical proportions!).
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby mump boy » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:51 am

gh wrote:
tandfman wrote:
mump boy wrote:To win the IAAF Combined Events Challenge you have to have compete in 3 events. I see no problem with that being the base line for a complete season (and $30,000)

It would have made no sense at all for him to leave his training base and do any of the pre-Trials events in the CE Challenge. And do you really think he had any motivation to stay in training another month+ to compete in compete in Talence in September? $30,000 would have been plenty of motivation for you and me, but fortunately for him, that's now almost pocket change.


I agree that "having" to compete one more time is ridiculous, to be sure. Having said that, he could have not trained a day post-London, wandered over to Talence and still won handily. Of this I'm 100% certain. Just another reason he gets my AOY vote. I think (I'm not pushed to the wire yet, and voting for these things is a decision of biblical proportions!).


He gets your vote because he 'could' have done something ??

He 'could' have gone to Talence, no heighted in the PV or got injured and not finished
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby gh » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:39 pm

yes, Eaton could have gone to Talence and no-heighted in the PV, but he's in the position as a decathlete (I realize an "unfair" advantage) that if simply finishing the season undefeaated and winning another meet was the object, that simply wouldn't happen. He's that much better than everybody else, plain and simple.

I've never been one to punish people for "injury defeats."

(bottom line being that this is all very subjective, of course, and you can see which way my tendencies lean)
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