Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]


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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Tuariki » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:41 pm

Daisy wrote:
Tuariki wrote:I think Mo Farah is #5.

But given the immense pressure he was under...... ;)

True that - he had double the immense what with relatives traversing the desert sands of the horn of Africa to watch it on the nearest TV
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby nianchengyu » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:26 pm

Eaton is even not in the top3, :? huge unfair foe him,who else can break hep and dec in the same season?
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:50 pm

Bolt will win AOY.
One thing that i dont understand is that for some people is more important to get WR(although the old WR is not super great)that 2nd best time in history(9.63 Bolt)when the WR is super great.

I know points IAAF for each event, and 9.63 is very very far of times in other events.
9.63 is around 1.39.61 in 800m and 12.57 in 110 hurdles(iaaf tables 2011, now it would be almost same i imagine).
It means that the WR in 100 for Bolt is very near of human limit while the other events are far yet.

So this my point of view, WR because is WR not mean that is better that other time in other event being wonderful time.

Regards :wink:
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:36 pm

ZELLGADISS wrote:Bolt will win AOY.
One thing that i dont understand is that for some people is more important to get WR(although the old WR is not super great)that 2nd best time in history(9.63 Bolt)when the WR is super great.

I know points IAAF for each event, and 9.63 is very very far of times in other events.
9.63 is around 1.39.61 in 800m and 12.57 in 110 hurdles(iaaf tables 2011, now it would be almost same i imagine).
It means that the WR in 100 for Bolt is very near of human limit while the other events are far yet.

So this my point of view, WR because is WR not mean that is better that other time in other event being wonderful time.

Regards :wink:


Well, that 9.63 is the same as a 12.57 110h tells us more about the shortcomings of the IAAF tables than it does about the relative merit of the performance levels. I suspect those with a lot of knowledge of the events would likely be of the same opinion. I expect to never see a 12.57, which is about 0.3 fast than the prior WR while several others have already run 9.6x. And, it almost certainly is at best Bolt's third best 100m, as I doubt that this effort was better than his last Olympic victory.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:22 am

26mi235, the 110 hurdles was very stopped, with no really sprinters in this event(yes i know that is hurdles too).
But only 0.06 improvement in 30 years¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡
Really very few improvement, int this moment the hurdles should to be sub 12.7 sure.

5 years ago only, in 100 was almost impossible to get sub 9.8, and now Bolt gets more or less easy and sub 9.6 too. It is amazing.
And in big championship almost nobody to gets sub 9.8, and Bolt make it very very easy.

I think that the people should to understand that a great time when WR is super great is better that a WR where the old WR is not super great.

It is a big difference, a WR because is WR is not always better that other wonderful time in other event.

Regards
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ATK » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:42 am

ZELLGADISS wrote:Bolt will win AOY.


If he does, it wont be because of his performances during the year, it will be because of his name...
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:35 am

ATK wrote:
ZELLGADISS wrote:Bolt will win AOY.


If he does, it wont be because of his performances during the year, it will be because of his name...


That is YOUR opinion.
In my opinion NO.
NAME?
3 golds in OG by 2nd time consecutive, it is name?(Nobody made it before)
olympic record in 100m, it is name?
The best time in the history in 200m too for somebody not called BOLT in a big championship(tied with Johnson, although Bolt made it jogging last 10m).
WR in 4x100m
Champion undefeteaded in Diamond in 100m(in 200 he won all his races in diamond too).

The hightest points IAAF(IAAF TABLES) in all events with BIG difference.

Is it NAME?

Yes, sure that he will win because he is called BOLT.
Sometimes looks that some people is blind ...
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby bushop » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:12 am

ATK wrote:
ZELLGADISS wrote:Bolt will win AOY.
If he does, it wont be because of his performances during the year, it will be because of his name...
ZELLGADISS wrote:That is YOUR opinion.
Of course it is... whose else would they be?
ZELLGADISS wrote:3 golds in OG
Two individual
ZELLGADISS wrote:2nd time consecutive,
Shouldn't matter
ZELLGADISS wrote:WR in 4x100m
Shouldn't matter.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:17 am

bushop for you ALL it no counts.
For who votes YES counts.
So probably he will win :wink:

The performances this year for Bolt are enought for to win again.
I dont understand so many haters for Bolt.
Bolt got some incredible this year.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ATK » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:12 am

ZELLGADISS wrote:bushop for you ALL it no counts.
For who votes YES counts.
So probably he will win :wink:

The performances this year for Bolt are enought for to win again.
I dont understand so many haters for Bolt.
Bolt got some incredible this year.

Compared to Rudisha, Merrit and Eaton(considering the event he is in) his year was just pretty good.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:08 pm

ATK it is sure your opinion and you know mine too.
But please, you dont try put your opinion like UNIVERSAL.
The people that will vote for this award if they vote to Bolt will be because they think that Bolt was the best(and for me and other people he was the best).

And you saw that he got great performances.
for you others got better performances?ok is your opinion
Other people dont think it.
To tell that if Bolt wins is because is BOLT, it is hater in my opinion.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ATK » Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:08 pm

ZELLGADISS wrote:ATK it is sure your opinion and you know mine too.
But please, you dont try put your opinion like UNIVERSAL.
The people that will vote for this award if they vote to Bolt will be because they think that Bolt was the best(and for me and other people he was the best).

And you saw that he got great performances.
for you others got better performances?ok is your opinion
Other people dont think it.
To tell that if Bolt wins is because is BOLT, it is hater in my opinion.

This isn't Gymnastics or Synchronized swimming. This is track and field.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:29 pm

I know perfectly that is track and field.
And if Bolt wins will not be by his name, and yes by his great season.
3 golds again by 2nd OG consecutive(nobody made it before), olympic record in 100,WR in 4x100,fantastic time in 200m(nobody , only Bolt, made better time in a big championship in the history),and undefetead in diamond in 100 and 200(winning diamond in 100).

In adittion his times in 100,200 or 4x100 are a lot of better that WR 110 hurdles or 800 in points IAAF(Tables IAAF with puntuation in each event)

For somebody here all this is worst that the Merritt and Rudisha?Ok are OPINIONS.
We will see soon the decision in the votes of proffesionals :wink:
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ATK » Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:04 pm

ZELLGADISS wrote:In adittion his times in 100,200 or 4x100 are a lot of better that WR 110 hurdles or 800 in points IAAF(Tables IAAF with puntuation in each event)


26mi235 wrote:Well, that 9.63 is the same as a 12.57 110h tells us more about the shortcomings of the IAAF tables than it does about the relative merit of the performance levels. I suspect those with a lot of knowledge of the events would likely be of the same opinion. I expect to never see a 12.57, which is about 0.3 fast than the prior WR while several others have already run 9.6x. And, it almost certainly is at best Bolt's third best 100m, as I doubt that this effort was better than his last Olympic victory.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:36 pm

ZELLGADISS wrote:26mi235, the 110 hurdles was very stopped, with no really sprinters in this event(yes i know that is hurdles too).
But only 0.06 improvement in 30 years¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡
Really very few improvement, int this moment the hurdles should to be sub 12.7 sure.


You are drawing exactly the wrong conclusion from these statistics. The fact that the time was so difficult to better by very much reflects inherent constraints in the event. Specifically, whereas Bolt can extend his stride so that he is only taking 42 or so strides for the race, the placement of the hurdles makes it essentially impossible (unless you can take two steps and alternate, which no one ever has been able to do in even part of a fast race, as far as I know).

Thus, 7 steps to the first hurdle, 3+1 for the next nine hurdles, then about six or seven to the finish => 7 + 36 + 7, about 50 steps. Now, what if they said that to run the 100m you had to take 50 steps and almost forty had to be essentially exactly a prescribed distance (and if you are more than a few centimeters off you get a bunch of time added to your total and probably get knocked out of the race entirely.

To see an additional element, if the 1000m sprinters get a 5mps tailwind, they will go about 0.25 faster. However, in the hurdles, a 5mps wind might actually make a great race (e.g., the 12.80 type) into a disaster.

Basically that 'equivalent' time is something that I never expect to see, and I do not expect my daughter to see.

You can vote for whomever you want, but I do not think that you are convincing a lot of posters here to your position.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:14 am

26mi235 i dont try convince to nobody.
I only try to show that if Bolt wins is not by NAME.
Only it.

Regards
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:08 pm

ZELLGADISS wrote:26mi235 i dont try convince to nobody.
I only try to show that if Bolt wins is not by NAME.
Only it.

Regards


But, if your argument is not convincing, then there are a lot of us that will think that he won because his name/fame rather than being the best out there this year. Aside from that, however, that perspective is entirely appropriate, and this board is about discussing these sorts of things, which gives us better insights on the sport.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Flumpy » Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:40 pm

The Top 3 that has been announced is for the IAAF AOY which has a rich history of voting for the athlete that will get the most publicity rather than the most deserving.

The idea that if Bolt wins it will be because 'the professionals' have voted is completely ludicrous.

If Bolt wins it will be a marketing decision pure and simple. Just ask Sally Gunnell.
Last edited by Flumpy on Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:10 am

Well for some people will be marketing, for other people will be justice.
Nobody has universal opinion and unique.

Marketing would be if Bolt only wins 1 gold and with normal time.
And he got a lot of more that it...
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ATK » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:09 am

ZELLGADISS wrote:Well for some people will be marketing, for other people will be justice.
Nobody has universal opinion and unique.

Marketing would be if Bolt only wins 1 gold and with normal time.
And he got a lot of more that it...


I think Bolt being in the top 3 can already be considered a marketing decision
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby lionelp1 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:16 am

but Bolt is not going to be AOY; either Rudisha or Merritt, for sure.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Flumpy » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:29 pm

ATK wrote:
ZELLGADISS wrote:Well for some people will be marketing, for other people will be justice.
Nobody has universal opinion and unique.

Marketing would be if Bolt only wins 1 gold and with normal time.
And he got a lot of more that it...


I think Bolt being in the top 3 can already be considered a marketing decision


Agreed. He's my 5th and I could probably be persuaded to move him further down.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby aaronk » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:03 pm

lionelp1 wrote:but Bolt is not going to be AOY; either Rudisha or Merritt, for sure.


Merritt # 1 for SURE!!
No contest!!

But I'd pick Rudisha for # 2 by just one half of one point over Ashton Eaton!!

And if Eaton had run 4 seconds faster in the OG 1500, and gotten the OR, he would have been a CLEAR # 2 over Rudisha!!

Just my opinion!
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby gh » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:15 pm

I can't see Bolt any higher than No. 4, even if you do count his relay achievement (which I don't). And he may well be only No. 5.

Either way, an IAAF win will be because it's a popularity contest, not because of achievement.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ATK » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:28 pm

gh wrote:I can't see Bolt any higher than No. 4, even if you do count his relay achievement (which I don't). And he may well be only No. 5.

Either way, an IAAF win will be because it's a popularity contest, not because of achievement.

Exactly. Wasn't 2011 a great example of the popularity contest as well?
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby gh » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:25 pm

I hasten to add that a Felix win on the women's side would also be (IMHO) a combination of too much credit for being on a relay and winning the popularity contest.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Flumpy » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:59 am

Let's not get started on Felix who should be world ranked about 8th :roll:
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby EME1980 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:28 pm

I think the shortlist shuld have consisted of Merritt, Rudisha and Eaton. All three have broken WRs and won Olympic gold this year and I can't see how that can be topped.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:00 pm

Well, historic Double Golds also have something to say for themselves, which covers Mo and Usain.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby mump boy » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:53 am

26mi235 wrote:Well, historic Double Golds also have something to say for themselves, which covers Mo and Usain.


I agree with the WR breakers being nominated for me doubles are great but similar to relays there are only a few athetes who have a realsitic chance of achieving them.

It is Robert Harting and Renauld Levellenie who are hard done by in these polls and i assume will be ranked highly on the T&FN one
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

mump boy wrote:
26mi235 wrote:Well, historic Double Golds also have something to say for themselves, which covers Mo and Usain.


I agree with the WR breakers being nominated for me doubles are great but similar to relays there are only a few athetes who have a realsitic chance of achieving them.

It is Robert Harting and Renauld Levellenie who are hard done by in these polls and i assume will be ranked highly on the T&FN one


While doubles are dependent on the discipline, it is really not at all like the relays; you still have to do it on your own, not with the help of others. As for doubles, I have tended to think that distance doubles are harder, but the 10,000/5000 double has a direct Final for the 10,000, easing the burden. Otherwise, the notion that a heat or semi of the 100 takes as much out of you as one in the 1500, 3000SC, or 5000 is bordering on the absurd. (Caveat, there are fewer rounds at the longest distances, but that difference has narrowed with only three in the sprints.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:04 pm

Very few for that Bolt gets his 4th AOY 8-)
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby gh » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:24 am

Something about Eaton that I'm not sure anybody mentioned before: he's the USaTF Indoor champ in teh LJ, has two wins over Oly bronze medalist Will Claye and while T&FN doesn't rank beyond No. 10, I suspect he'd end up about No. 15 in the world in that event. Has 45.87, 13.34w and 8.23 marks outside of decathlons, so he has more than the two competitions that we see frequently cited.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby aaronk » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:45 am

gh wrote:Something about Eaton that I'm not sure anybody mentioned before: he's the USaTF Indoor champ in teh LJ, has two wins over Oly bronze medalist Will Claye and while T&FN doesn't rank beyond No. 10, I suspect he'd end up about No. 15 in the world in that event. Has 45.87, 13.34w and 8.23 marks outside of decathlons, so he has more than the two competitions that we see frequently cited.


Using your theory, wouldn't then the same apply to Jessica Ennis, since her 12.54 surely would rank her pretty high on the World list for 100H?

Not to mention her 7.87 60H this year is the 3rd best indoors, and she has the 2nd best Pent. score as well!!
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby lionelp1 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:45 pm

Merritt won Gold and set a WR but DQed twice this year and got beaten, twice in DL meets..His season was great from the Trials onwards, but he dqed in Lausanne ?.

Rudisha,Eaton, Merritt,Bolt would be as reasonable as any number of other subjective judgments.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby gh » Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:30 pm

aaronk wrote:
gh wrote:Something about Eaton that I'm not sure anybody mentioned before: he's the USaTF Indoor champ in teh LJ, has two wins over Oly bronze medalist Will Claye and while T&FN doesn't rank beyond No. 10, I suspect he'd end up about No. 15 in the world in that event. Has 45.87, 13.34w and 8.23 marks outside of decathlons, so he has more than the two competitions that we see frequently cited.


Using your theory, wouldn't then the same apply to Jessica Ennis, since her 12.54 surely would rank her pretty high on the World list for 100H?

Not to mention her 7.87 60H this year is the 3rd best indoors, and she has the 2nd best Pent. score as well!!


If this weren't the men's AOY thread, I might respond.
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby aaronk » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:32 pm

gh wrote:
aaronk wrote:
gh wrote:Something about Eaton that I'm not sure anybody mentioned before: he's the USaTF Indoor champ in teh LJ, has two wins over Oly bronze medalist Will Claye and while T&FN doesn't rank beyond No. 10, I suspect he'd end up about No. 15 in the world in that event. Has 45.87, 13.34w and 8.23 marks outside of decathlons, so he has more than the two competitions that we see frequently cited.


Using your theory, wouldn't then the same apply to Jessica Ennis, since her 12.54 surely would rank her pretty high on the World list for 100H?

Not to mention her 7.87 60H this year is the 3rd best indoors, and she has the 2nd best Pent. score as well!!


If this weren't the men's AOY thread, I might respond.


Sorry, gh!!
I'm REALLY computer-semi-literate!!
I put it here, because I don't know how to place a quote from one thread onto another, only onto the SAME thread!!
Otherwise, I would have done what you said!!
If you want to, feel free to transfer the above to the women's AOY thread, and respond.
Thanks!!
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Dave » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:08 am

Three Olympic champions setting a WR in a given year seems like higher quality than other years. Is this par for the course for an Olympic year or was this a better year than usual?
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby ZELLGADISS » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:21 pm

Only 1 day for that Bolt makes history again, 4th AOY in his great career 8-)
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Re: Rudisha loses...Eaton AOY?? [or Merritt?!]

Postby Flumpy » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:49 am

AOY

Merritt?
Rudisha?
Eaton?

Don't be ridiculous. Can't believe Aries and David actually turned up just to be insulted.

It's embarrassing.
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