¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!


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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:44 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
ATK wrote:If all 3 are perfect, its almost certainly due to luck not practice, or else they would be perfect every time.

Bullshit! Humans aren't robots and the outgoing runner will never leave at exactly the same time from one race to the next no matter how many times they practice it. You can only hope that they will keep their margin of error within +/- 1/2 step. The fact that the 4x100 takes place outdoors and the incoming runner could be running with a tailwind one day and into a headwind the next day makes this type repeatability even more difficult. Similarly, Joe Montana probably threw to Jerry Rice on out routes over 10,000 times in practice and games during their time together, but the timing wasn't perfect all the time. My feeling is that if a team practices to be perfect, that team will achieve perfection more often than a team that practices for mediocrity, or a team that rarely practices at all.
ATK wrote:Based off your idea of a perfect handoff that I have read througout numerous relay threads since about NCAA's, I have yet to see a perfect relay. (granted I would need to check every team and not just the top teams.)
Please provide me with a video of a perfect relay. (by the way LSU did not run a perfect relay, although they were very efficient and I would use their race as a training video.)

I guess the first thing we need to do is define what perfect is. What's your defintion? Also, what's your critique of the 2012 LSU men at NCAA's?

That was my mistake, I contradicted myself saying they would be perfect every time. You are right. But I hold with saying a perfect relay can only be due to luck not practice.

Madison to Tarmoh in the London prelims is what I would call close to perfect. Stretching the zone to the incoming runner is as close to their top speed as possible, while the outgoing runner is already farther into their running than the first half of the zone.
Getting the athletes to pass the baton while having them running as fast as possible at that point in the race.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby DJG » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:28 pm

gh wrote:
DJG wrote:....
Not impossible, just that USATF and the athletes do not place that much emphasis on the relay
for them to approach anything close to what would be perfect exchanges.....


I'm sure they place as much emphasis on it as is possible, given the circumstances. When a one-off race conflicts with your maximal preparation for your day job, your course is pretty much determined.


GH, If what Knight said is true, that she and Jeter did only one exchange in practice, I would hardly call that much emphasis. I also do not think that a few handoffs, which involve sprinting, is really a conflict to their day job, which, I recall, is sprinting.

How do you explain the men's changing the order and using subs when it is totally unnecessary?
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby DJG » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:34 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
DJG wrote:Not impossible, just that USATF and the athletes do not place that much emphasis on the relay
for them to approach anything close to what would be perfect exchanges.
Why did the US men use two subs and change the order from the prelims?
To get 6 medals and to rest Gay and Bailey who needed no rest since neither ran the 200. If Gay had run the prelim and adjusted his mark for Gatlin, then the US men may have pulled off the biggest upset/surprise of the entire Games. As it was Gay left late and Gatlin had to slow down. Race over.

A higher priority is placed on getting medals - for old timers like Patton and Williams and newcomers like Tarmoh and Demps - than on chasing better handoffs for the relay.

As bad as the exchange was for Knight to Jeter (only the second time according to Knight's Flotrack interview) it was good enough for the win and the WR. No need to pursue pefection when you can easily beat the competition with average to good exchanges.

Agreed. It wouldn't be that hard to get better exchanges if it was important to USATF, but they would rather have six silver medals than four gold medals, and they want to do this with little to no practice. Using two subs wouldn't be too bad if they worked on all the combinations in practice and in the pre-Olympic meets but they won't do this. As you pointed out, the men lost 0.2s or more on the exchange from Gatlin to Gay. The best college teams don't lose that much time on exchanges at championship time.

By the way, can you imagine how ugly the women's third exchange might have been if Jeter hadn't left earlier than her marked indicated?


I thought we were going to have another "early touch" DQ. Knight could very easily have given the baton to Jeter before she was in the zone. Fortunately, either Knight waited or Jeter didn't put her hand back until they were in the zone.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:44 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:By the way, can you imagine how ugly the women's third exchange might have been if Jeter hadn't left earlier than her marked indicated?

Watching that exchange again, Jeter left "right on time". She turned a step before Knight hit the tape and as soon as she hit the tape she was out.

Regardless you have bee correct, the tape was way to close.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby Smoke » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:52 pm

Jazzy you need to stop posting you are looking like a flag a waver, which you clearly are. Nothing of what you have said is consistent. You quoted and cited 100 times to counter my post, in which I clearly told you times are not relevant. Then you turn around and reply to ATK by saying some rely on times in evaluating relays. Please stop and let it go.
I at no time have been flag waving. If you did not see this result after Penn you clearly were wishing with all ten of your toes crossed. Fact is, this is not about the 100 and if it were may I point out that the silver, and 4th and 5th placers were three of the 4 legs of the US team! Sherone has been weak for a few years and clearly not in her 2008 form. It was not merely execution that resulted in a .55 victory, they were faster. It was not SS getting out slow that allowed Allyson to run away from her. VCB was on the bend and coming off a double, on top of not being in any sort of 200 shape. Bianca was rested and it showed clearly in the final. Kerron was outclassed. All that you wrote is wishful thinking and flag waving. Let me help you out...

That was a very impressive race by both teams. I did not think the JAM girls had enough to tie the old wr, I did not think they could break their national record given the condition of the team. I did think the US women would break the wr given their run last year and their run at Penn this year. Too much speed. Only a botched handoff could cost them the gold. Kerron never had a shot at outrunning Jet. That is just common sense.

BTW watch it again, Jet turns just as BK approaches her mark and does not move until she has actually stepped over the mark. Shrug
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby fourjz » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:54 pm

Gotta confess again.Just got through looking at this great performance again.Ha Haha !! :mrgreen:
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby DCSIGMA » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:38 pm

fourjz wrote:Gotta confess again.Just got through looking at this great performance again.Ha Haha !! :mrgreen:



Don't worry I been watching and re-watching 2 on my DVR i dunno how many times i have watched it
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:34 am

Smoke, I merely called you out for your faulty logic, there's no reason to get personal. What the hell do you mean by flag-waving anyway? Are you accusing me of cheering for the U.S. or Jamaica for saying that Jamaica had the footspeed to go much faster? If you watched the first exchange from Shelly-Ann to Sherone and don't think they had the footspeed to break the old WR, then you either have bad eyesight or you're delusional. The old WR was soft and it shouldn't have taken Jamaica or the U.S. this long to break it, period. Furthermore, if you don't think 100 SB's are an objective measure of a team's footspeed, what is? Are we to accept that Bianca was faster than her SB indicates just because you say so? You're full of it if you do. The only thing that I will concede is that the SB's of the American and Jamaican women might not have been an accurate measure of their footspeed on race day, but it is the most objective measure. I can even see merit in correcting those times for wind and altitude, but I won't accept any baseless assertions, such as "the Americans had more footspeed because I say so".
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby j-a-m » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:10 am

Wikipedia right now lists the following medals for SAFP. Seriously, check it out before they fix it.
"Silver 2013 Moscow 4×100 m relay
Bronze 2013 Moscow 200 m"
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby Tuariki » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:31 am

j-a-m wrote:Wikipedia right now lists the following medals for SAFP. Seriously, check it out before they fix it.
"Silver 2013 Moscow 4×100 m relay
Bronze 2013 Moscow 200 m"

Gee whiz j-a-m. Don't you like SAFP anymore.
You forgot her gold in the 100m Moscow 2013
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby j-a-m » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:16 am

Tuariki wrote:Gee whiz j-a-m. Don't you like SAFP anymore.
You forgot her gold in the 100m Moscow 2013

You're right, I must've overlooked it. That also makes the wikipedia entry more credible; I would've been surprised had she not won any medal in the 100.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jamal00005 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:07 am

j-a-m wrote:
Tuariki wrote:Gee whiz j-a-m. Don't you like SAFP anymore.
You forgot her gold in the 100m Moscow 2013

You're right, I must've overlooked it. That also makes the wikipedia entry more credible; I would've been surprised had she not won any medal in the 100.


I think if all goes to plan and stays the same she will win the 100m in Moscow as wikipedia predicted LMAO
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby mump boy » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:05 pm

I haven't read any of this thread the record doesn't interest me that much. It was a weak record that was nearly broken in 93 and 97 and should have been many times since, by a team that actually bothered to practice baton changing

The GDR team didn't have great let speed but immaculate technique, i hope the new WR will encourage relay teams to concentrate on baton over foot speed and this record can be broken again very soon.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:31 pm

mump boy wrote:I haven't read any of this thread the record doesn't interest me that much. It was a weak record that was nearly broken in 93 and 97 and should have been many times since, by a team that actually bothered to practice baton changing

The GDR team didn't have great let speed but immaculate technique, i hope the new WR will encourage relay teams to concentrate on baton over foot speed and this record can be broken again very soon.

Amen! I couldn't have said it better myself. However, with where the records are now (men's and women's), Jamaica and the U.S. are probably the only nations that are capable of breaking them in the foreseeable future. Before this year, I think the women's record was within the reach of maybe one or two nations (eg. Trinidad) with absolutely perfect exchanges, and the same situation existed with the men's record prior ro 2008.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby mump boy » Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:06 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
mump boy wrote:I haven't read any of this thread the record doesn't interest me that much. It was a weak record that was nearly broken in 93 and 97 and should have been many times since, by a team that actually bothered to practice baton changing

The GDR team didn't have great let speed but immaculate technique, i hope the new WR will encourage relay teams to concentrate on baton over foot speed and this record can be broken again very soon.

Amen! I couldn't have said it better myself. However, with where the records are now (men's and women's), Jamaica and the U.S. are probably the only nations that are capable of breaking them in the foreseeable future. Before this year, I think the women's record was within the reach of maybe one or two nations (eg. Trinidad) with absolutely perfect exchanges, and the same situation existed with the men's record prior ro 2008.


Agreed both WR are now very strong but more work on changeover with the unprecedented speed both teams now have, can definitely see improvements
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:54 am

mump boy wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
mump boy wrote:I haven't read any of this thread the record doesn't interest me that much. It was a weak record that was nearly broken in 93 and 97 and should have been many times since, by a team that actually bothered to practice baton changing

The GDR team didn't have great let speed but immaculate technique, i hope the new WR will encourage relay teams to concentrate on baton over foot speed and this record can be broken again very soon.

Amen! I couldn't have said it better myself. However, with where the records are now (men's and women's), Jamaica and the U.S. are probably the only nations that are capable of breaking them in the foreseeable future. Before this year, I think the women's record was within the reach of maybe one or two nations (eg. Trinidad) with absolutely perfect exchanges, and the same situation existed with the men's record prior ro 2008.


Agreed both WR are now very strong but more work on changeover with the unprecedented speed both teams now have, can definitely see improvements

Problem is, I don't think the US put in any more work doing exchanges, then they have in the past. I think the fact that it has been publicized more and they have had so many recent failures makes it seem that way...
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby mump boy » Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:31 am

ATK wrote:
mump boy wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
mump boy wrote:I haven't read any of this thread the record doesn't interest me that much. It was a weak record that was nearly broken in 93 and 97 and should have been many times since, by a team that actually bothered to practice baton changing

The GDR team didn't have great let speed but immaculate technique, i hope the new WR will encourage relay teams to concentrate on baton over foot speed and this record can be broken again very soon.

Amen! I couldn't have said it better myself. However, with where the records are now (men's and women's), Jamaica and the U.S. are probably the only nations that are capable of breaking them in the foreseeable future. Before this year, I think the women's record was within the reach of maybe one or two nations (eg. Trinidad) with absolutely perfect exchanges, and the same situation existed with the men's record prior ro 2008.


Agreed both WR are now very strong but more work on changeover with the unprecedented speed both teams now have, can definitely see improvements

Problem is, I don't think the US put in any more work doing exchanges, then they have in the past. I think the fact that it has been publicized more and they have had so many recent failures makes it seem that way...


Then there's a still room for improvement isn't there
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:45 am

mump boy wrote:
ATK wrote:Problem is, I don't think the US put in any more work doing exchanges, then they have in the past. I think the fact that it has been publicized more and they have had so many recent failures makes it seem that way...


Then there's a still room for improvement isn't there

Absolutely!
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:36 am

What gets me is when people claim a record is weak, or over due for being broken. I don't understand how that makes sense. Especially with a record that has been in the books for so long. If the record was really that weak, it would have been broken before. Getting close is not breaking it, and breaking it is not easy.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby mump boy » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:04 pm

ATK wrote:What gets me is when people claim a record is weak, or over due for being broken. I don't understand how that makes sense. Especially with a record that has been in the books for so long. If the record was really that weak, it would have been broken before. Getting close is not breaking it, and breaking it is not easy.


I explained why it was weak and why it hadn't been broken :?
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:32 pm

mump boy wrote:
ATK wrote:What gets me is when people claim a record is weak, or over due for being broken. I don't understand how that makes sense. Especially with a record that has been in the books for so long. If the record was really that weak, it would have been broken before. Getting close is not breaking it, and breaking it is not easy.


I explained why it was weak and why it hadn't been broken :?


mump boy wrote:...It was a weak record that was nearly broken in 93 and 97 and should have been many times since, by a team that actually bothered to practice baton changing

So your telling me that no team has bothered to practice hand offs since 1985... :?
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:46 pm

ATK wrote:So your telling me that no team has bothered to practice hand offs since 1985... :?

Neither Jamaica nor the U.S. has ever taken stick passing seriously and that's what's relevant to the debate. The East German women and the French men of the early 1990's took it seriously, but they never had the footspeed to lower the record to sub-41 and sub-37 respectively, but they did set world records.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:12 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
ATK wrote:So your telling me that no team has bothered to practice hand offs since 1985... :?

Neither Jamaica nor the U.S. has ever taken stick passing seriously and that's what's relevant to the debate. The East German women and the French men of the early 1990's took it seriously, but they never had the footspeed to lower the record to sub-41 and sub-37 respectively, but they did set world records.

Like I said....so your telling me that NO TEAM has bothered to practice handoffs since 1985?
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:38 pm

ATK wrote:Like I said....so your telling me that NO TEAM has bothered to practice handoffs since 1985?

I said Jamaica and the U.S. What part of that don't you understand?
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:51 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
ATK wrote:Like I said....so your telling me that NO TEAM has bothered to practice handoffs since 1985?

I said Jamaica and the U.S. What part of that don't you understand?

So explain how the record was weak if only two countries were capable of practicing enough to break it...
And only one has actually done it....
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby mump boy » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:57 am

ATK wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
ATK wrote:Like I said....so your telling me that NO TEAM has bothered to practice handoffs since 1985?

I said Jamaica and the U.S. What part of that don't you understand?

So explain how the record was weak if only two countries were capable of practicing enough to break it...
And only one has actually done it....


Because they've both had the talent to break is considerably.

For example

The GDR team of '85 41.37 had seasons bests of

Auerswald 11.12
Gunthor 11.19
Gohr- 10.86
Gladisch 10.99

There are many teams especially US ones that have had 4 faster sprinters than that in the last 30 years but they didn't have the baton speed

Lets look at some of the other fastest 4x1 teams and compare foot speed v baton speed

US of 97 41.47 has seasons bests .3 faster on paper but were .1 slower

Devers 10.88
Gaines 11.19
Jones 10.76
Miller 11.04

US team 93 41.47 .15 faster - .1 slower

Devers 10.82
Finn 11.16
Vereen 11.17
Torrence 10.86

RUS 93 Now here's a team that made up time with technique (although it should be note SB are probably not representative of true speed) .64 slower - .1 slower !!

Bogoslovskaya 11.31
Malchugina 11.38 (but 10.92 in '92)
Voronova 11.17
Privalova- 10.94

US 88 41.98 - This team could have SMASHED the WR but changeovers especially last one were APPALLING. SB 1.11 faster !! - .61 slower

Brown Alice - 10.92
Echols Sheila - 10.83
Griffith-Joyner Florence 10.49
Ashford Evelyn 10.81

JAM 08 the crack JAM squad of 08 dropped the baton the one time they all ran together

.84 faster - NM

SAFP 10.78
Kerron 10.80
Sherone 10.87
VCB 10.87

US 12- Not even fastest team on paper but still

.51 faster .55 faster !! This is because of superior baton changing than previous teams PLUS foot speed, when both are combined for the first time this is the result

Jeter - 10.78
Madison - 10.85
Felix - 10.89
Knight 11.13

This is not a comprehensive list and I know that 100m times do not necessarily translate to a relay but If any one of these teams had had had the baton passing skills of GDR the WR would be long gone and if US 88 had, it would stand for another 30 years
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby rhymans » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:25 am

I wouldn't suggest that these are definitive, but looking closely at the video fo the race I have splits of:

Madison 11.0, Felix 9.9, Knight 10.2, Jeter 9.7
Fraser 11.1, Simpson 10.2, Campbell-Brown 10.1, Stewart 10.0

What is clear is that Jamaica loses at least 0.1 on the first changeover and a similar amount on the final handover. Jeter is clearly moving quicker than Stewart as they set off with their batons. Equally it looks as though Madison was into her running much more sharply than fraser. It may just be that doubling up fatigued Fraser.

All in all a wondeful race to watch.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:14 am

Fraser's split was artificially slow due to the fact that she had to slam on brakes before she reached the 100m mark.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:55 am

mump boy wrote:
ATK wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
ATK wrote:Like I said....so your telling me that NO TEAM has bothered to practice handoffs since 1985?

I said Jamaica and the U.S. What part of that don't you understand?

So explain how the record was weak if only two countries were capable of practicing enough to break it...
And only one has actually done it....


Because they've both had the talent to break is considerably.
.....
.....

This is not a comprehensive list and I know that 100m times do not necessarily translate to a relay but If any one of these teams had had had the baton passing skills of GDR the WR would be long gone and if US 88 had, it would stand for another 30 years

But they obviously didn't have the talent if they didn't break it...
Like you said, 100 times don't necessarily translate to the relay. If you don't have the baton passing down, you don't have the full relay talent. You cant say they should have destroyed the record if they only had 50% of the talent needed to do so.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby toyracer » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:55 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Fraser's split was artificially slow due to the fact that she had to slam on brakes before she reached the 100m mark.


That may be so but I'd agree that as I was watching live she was slower than expected. Most likely due to fatigue having run the double.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby mump boy » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:10 am

ATK wrote: If you don't have the baton passing down, you don't have the full relay talent.


Which was my whole point :?

Baton passing can be learned with practice, speed not so much
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:12 am

ATK wrote:But they obviously didn't have the talent if they didn't break it...
Like you said, 100 times don't necessarily translate to the relay. If you don't have the baton passing down, you don't have the full relay talent. You cant say they should have destroyed the record if they only had 50% of the talent needed to do so.

Most people on this board consider baton passing an acquired skill, not an innate talent like footspeed.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby EPelle » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:52 am

You do need the requisite skills -- learned and developed -- to efficiently pass the baton. That becomes an acquired talent.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:59 am

EPelle wrote:You do need the requisite skills -- learned and developed -- to efficiently pass the baton. That becomes an acquired talent.

I guess this is an argument over semantics. I disagree with your interpretation of the English language in this instance.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby t_monk » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:44 am

I don't see the big debate.... The previous record in no way was as unbeatable as people were making it out to be....
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby mump boy » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:05 am

t_monk wrote:I don't see the big debate.... The previous record in no way was as unbeatable as people were making it out to be....


That's the whole point but some people would rather argue semantics than concede the point that this record could have gone yonks ago with a little attention to baton passing
Last edited by mump boy on Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:05 am

t_monk wrote:I don't see the big debate.... The previous record in no way was as unbeatable as people were making it out to be....

Explain that to ATK. He seems to believe that the Jamaican men and the American women caught lightning in a bottle, a la Bob Beamon.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:15 am

I agree 100% that baton passing is learned, but that doesn't make the record weak.
Hurdling, high jumping, hammer throwing, pole vaulting, triple jumping, etc (most non flat running events)are all events that require a big portion of learned abilities. But I wouldn't go and say all their records are weak.
The fact that it takes a good amount of time and practice for 4 ladies to actually break the record just shows how tough the record is/was. I think its pretty straight forward. If the record was that weak it would have been broken.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:26 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
t_monk wrote:I don't see the big debate.... The previous record in no way was as unbeatable as people were making it out to be....

Explain that to ATK. He seems to believe that the Jamaican men and the American women caught lightning in a bottle, a la Bob Beamon.

Not sure where the men came into the disscussion. I never even mentioned them...
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:30 am

ATK wrote:I agree 100% that baton passing is learned, but that doesn't make the record weak.
Hurdling, high jumping, hammer throwing, pole vaulting, triple jumping, etc (most non flat running events)are all events that require a big portion of learned abilities. But I wouldn't go and say all their records are weak.
The big difference between the 4x100 and hurdling, high jumping, hammer throwing, etc. is that pro sprinters rarely practice baton passing and rarely run 4x100 races, compared to athletes in those other disciplines who practice their cratfs daily.

ATK wrote:The fact that it takes a good amount of time and practice for 4 ladies to actually break the record just shows how tough the record is/was.

It just shows a lack of commitment on the part of USATF, nothing else. If for example, the USATF made participation in relay camps and pre-Olympic relay meets a prerequisite for participating in individual events at the Olympics and World Championships, those records would have been broken a long time ago. As it is now, sprinters just blow off these meets and camps without any fear of repercusssions.

ATK wrote:I think its pretty straight forward. If the record was that weak it would have been broken.

You're welcome to believe what you want, but that doesn't make it so.
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