¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!


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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:08 pm

Smoke wrote:In terms of actual footspeed, meaning who was faster on the day, the US was always faster. From the moment Tianna Madison stepped up into the upper echelon, took over the lead off this race was a forgone conclusion..

I disagree with this. The teams were close enough in footspeed, that superior sticks on the part of the Jamaicans could have won them the race. The Jamaicans lost 0.3-0.4 seconds on the first exchange alone. The 2004 U.K. men proved how much time superior sticks could make up.

Smoke wrote:With London's lightning fast track, the favorable weather, and all the US women clicking on all cylinders the question was how fast. I did not think they would dip until the final exchange. That was exciting to witness.

Amen! However, I came to my feet after the second exchange.

Smoke wrote:And for the record the JA hand offs have always been good, their order has been terrible and subsequently their speed lacking.

I disagree with you 100% on the Jamaican women's having good passing over the years, but I guess that all depends on the definition of the word "good". I've never seen a Jamaican or American men's or women's national team execute what I would call grade A passing. However, I would give the 2012 American women an B+, maybe an A-.

Smoke wrote:The US did nail their sticks, but here is the scary part...those were SAFE hand offs all the way around. Very safe. It would be fun to see a one off where they stretched the zones. In other words, they can go faster.

Amen again! The record may no longer be soft, and out of the reach of any European nation in the foreseeable future, but it is by no means hard. Both the men's and women's records can easily go another 0.3s lower. However, the second exchange for the women wasn't that safe. Felix and Knight could have stretched the zone a little more, but not much more.

EDIT: Smoke, did you notice where Jeter's go-mark was and how she seemed to completely ignore it, leaving waaayyyyyy before Knight reached the mark? This seems to support Knight's claim about a lack of practice. If what we witnessed last week is the U.S. relay teams behaving like the proverbial broken clock (right twice a day), and not diligent coaching on the part of Drummond, that's really disheartening.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:38 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Smoke wrote:The US did nail their sticks, but here is the scary part...those were SAFE hand offs all the way around. Very safe. It would be fun to see a one off where they stretched the zones. In other words, they can go faster.

Amen again! The record may no longer be soft, and out of the reach of any European nation in the foreseeable future, but it is by no means hard. Both the men's and women's records can easily go another 0.3s lower. However, the second exchange for the women wasn't that safe. Felix and Knight could have stretched the zone a little more, but not much more.

The 2nd exchange was almost as good as your going to get without getting lucky. If you guys are talking about stretching the zone to almost the end of the line, I'm almost certain no team does that unless its by accident.

Although looking back at the race now, Felix and Madison was a great pass, but it was pretty early in the zone. But they kept it moving better than Jeter and Knight IMO.
(Madison falling could be very deceptive to some but the hand off was already completed)


I think you guys are getting a little ahead of yourself with the passes. It seems like your predicting what the teams could run if they stretched the zone to its max with perfect passes and all the women running their fastest. Its not realistic. You will almost certainly never see a perfect relay race


Edit:
In the prelims, Madison and Tarmoh stretched to the end of the zone...
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby Marlow » Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:29 pm

Even more important than handing the stick with outstretched hands by both runners is the idea of the outgoing runner pulling the incoming through the zone at maximal speed. We saw lots of 'good' hand-offs at far less than top speed (as much as can be developed in the tiny accel zone). If the incoming runner maintains top speed through the zone (very rarely seen) and stretches the baton to the next runner going the same speed, THEN we've got a perfect pass, but this kind of pass is right on the edge of going very badly for a dropped stick or a pass out of the zone.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:35 pm

Marlow wrote:Even more important than handing the stick with outstretched hands by both runners is the idea of the outgoing runner pulling the incoming through the zone at maximal speed. We saw lots of 'good' hand-offs at far less than top speed (as much as can be developed in the tiny accel zone). If the incoming runner maintains top speed through the zone (very rarely seen) and stretches the baton to the next runner going the same speed, THEN we've got a perfect pass, but this kind of pass is right on the edge of going very badly for a dropped stick or a pass out of the zone.

I agree, if that happens 3 times for 1 team, I call luck.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:38 pm

When passing at the end of running 120m or so, the runners are not at top speed. Top speed is reached in a 100m dash at around 60-80m and the athlete is slowing systematically thereafter (on the bend things might be a bit different because the athletes might be constrained from going at top speed by the need for continual acceleration around the curve, but that still takes effort so that the runner is not at their peak speed come the zone.

Then the action of passing the baton slows the runners a little bit further, especially if it has to be kept up front when the hand would normally be going back again.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:30 pm

Marlow wrote:Even more important than handing the stick with outstretched hands by both runners is the idea of the outgoing runner pulling the incoming through the zone at maximal speed. We saw lots of 'good' hand-offs at far less than top speed (as much as can be developed in the tiny accel zone). If the incoming runner maintains top speed through the zone (very rarely seen) and stretches the baton to the next runner going the same speed, THEN we've got a perfect pass, but this kind of pass is right on the edge of going very badly for a dropped stick or a pass out of the zone.

The key to the outgoing runner "pulling the incoming runner through the zone" is leavig on time (of course) and waiting until as late as possible to put the arm back. The most well-drilled college teams don't put their arms back until they're halfway through the zone. When a team really stretches the zone, the incoming runner should be forced to run through the zone just to make the pass. That's a lot easier said than done, because it's hard for runners to overcome the urge to look back and go to the "dreaded windsheild wiper movement" when the end of the zone is only two steps away and they still don't feel the baton in their hand. There is only one way to get them to overcome this urge, and that's repitition, both in practice and in meets. It is only though repitition that the outgoing runers will develope enough faith in their teammates to run with NO FEAR, and by that I mean no fear that they will ever leave the zone empty-handed.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby trackinblack2 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:00 am

Gentlemen! I really enjoyed this whole thread. Thanks for the discussion.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby fourjz » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:57 am

After the "B" team ran 41.64,it became reasonable to believe the record could be broken.But

not going into another realm of performance with the 40.82 !!

That was Beamonesque ! :mrgreen:
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:03 am

fourjz wrote:After the "B" team ran 41.64,it became reasonable to believe the record could be broken.But

not going into another realm of performance with the 40.82 !!

That was Beamonesque ! :mrgreen:

I think it was more Michael Johnsonesque. 19.32 seemed Beamonesque when he did it, but now it's not such a big deal.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby fourjz » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:45 pm

Still shaking my head over the outstanding performance of 40.82 ! And now I'm approaching looking at it for about 100 times.Great performance. :mrgreen: :shock:
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:59 pm

fourjz wrote:Still shaking my head over the outstanding performance of 40.82 ! And now I'm approaching looking at it for about 100 times.Great performance. :mrgreen: :shock:

100 times? :shock: Man, I thought I was bad. What are the things that jump out at you after watching it over and over?
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby Smoke » Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:31 pm

Marlow I am not a message board researcher but it is documented that my comments are far from 20-15. I have been saying the US could and should break the wr since 2011 and definitely knew it was in jeopardy after Penn relays.
As far as your rebuttal, saying dropping the stick was a reason to call the wr out of reach, is a huge reach. A weak point actually. To use that logic I could say if East Germany would have dropped the stick the wr would be slower. In other words, ignoring the speed on the track because the stick may be dropped is not a valid reason. And applies to any and all teams.

I can take you guys leg by leg and prove this was not a leg speed issue. Tianna v SAFP was at worst a wash for the US and at best a win, Allyson was always a huge win, Bianca was a question mark but given last years runs and this years runs she was going to maintain whatever lead she had over VCB, VCB had not shown the 200 prowess this season to say she was destroying Bianca, and last leg was another huge win for the US with Jeter v Kerron. In all head to head battles this year Jet ran away from Kerron. Please note, I did not cite one single time, because this is about competition, not circumstantial times.

Anyway, great run by the ladies. They did not drop the stick and yes I always thought the wr was reachable, but not 40.82.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:24 pm

Smoke, the U.S. didn't beat Jamaica by 0.55s because of superior footspeed, they blew them out because of superior execution. I appreciate your flag-waving, but Madison does not have superior footspeed to SAFP, the world's fastest woman since 2008. And Knight isn't in the same class as VCB, who ran ran 10.81 in the 100 final. Knight will never run sub-11 in her career, much less 10.81, you mark my word. If SS had left on time and got out hard, SAFP would not have been forced to slam on brakes to keep from running past her. And VCB effectively surrendered her footspped advantage over Knight when she got out easy and put her arm back five meters before she reached the zone, thus delaying her acceleration and forcing SS to slow down to make the pass. On the other hand, Knight was almost halfway through the zone before she put her arm back which forced Felix to chase her down to make the pass. The bottom line is that Jamaica easily had enough footspeed to run sub-41 if they had executed better.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby t_monk » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:55 pm

I think this performance is great.... but I don't think this performance is by any stretch unbeatable especially from Jamaica. Even with the current shape of all their athletes they have the ability to go sub-41. Them not doing so comes down to relay practice if you ask me.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby beebee » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:54 pm

t_monk wrote:I think this performance is great.... but I don't think this performance is by any stretch unbeatable especially from Jamaica. Even with the current shape of all their athletes they have the ability to go sub-41. Them not doing so comes down to relay practice if you ask me.


Lol. You can't just assume a team can do something that has only been done once in history. The fact is that this Olympics offered the best chance for the Jamaican ladies to break it if they truly had the potential...the games, their best team against their rivals...

The only team at this moment that can break this record is the one who set it.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby fourjz » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:52 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
fourjz wrote:Still shaking my head over the outstanding performance of 40.82 ! And now I'm approaching looking at it for about 100 times.Great performance. :mrgreen: :shock:

100 times? :shock: Man, I thought I was bad. What are the things that jump out at you after watching it over and over?

The women kept the stick moving with precision,they all ran fantastic legs,but the suprise to me was Bianca Knight ran her entire leg well and at the end accelerated through the passing zone to Carmelita Jeter who ran one of the best anchor legs ever.I believe that they could have ran faster though which is scary.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:10 am

t_monk wrote:I think this performance is great.... but I don't think this performance is by any stretch unbeatable especially from Jamaica. Even with the current shape of all their athletes they have the ability to go sub-41. Them not doing so comes down to relay practice if you ask me.

Well said!
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:16 am

beebee wrote:The only team at this moment that can break this record is the one who set it.

For you to say this means you haven't taken the time to look at Jamaica's first two exchanges closely. They easily lost 0.4s on those exchanges alone.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby pesmerga » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:20 am

in my opinion, the only team that could give the US team a run for their money would be the 08 Jamaican team but with the London line-up.

SAFP just won her 100m title, she is rested. SS proved that she still had the speed to keep up with the US ladies. VCB just ran 21.74, a huuuge time and if i watched correctly, she ran a 11.00 curve and 10.74 homestraight which is terrific. KS same as SS and has her old top-end speed.

A time of 41.41 is just phenomenal. The US ladies just ran an unbelievable time that overshadows the efforts of the Jamaicans easily.

and here is a link with (most likely) unofficial splits:

http://www.alltime-athletics.com/w4x100ok.htm
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:03 am

pesmerga wrote:in my opinion, the only team that could give the US team a run for their money would be the 08 Jamaican team but with the London line-up.

SAFP just won her 100m title, she is rested. SS proved that she still had the speed to keep up with the US ladies. VCB just ran 21.74, a huuuge time and if i watched correctly, she ran a 11.00 curve and 10.74 homestraight which is terrific. KS same as SS and has her old top-end speed.

You're conveniently overlooking the fact that the slowest person on either team was Bianca Knight. Jamaica finished first and third in the 100 and second and fourth in the 200. There was definitely no great disparity in footspeed based on SB's but I don't think there was a significant disparity on race day either.

The splits from that link are obviously innaccurate since the American times add up to 41.12 and the Jamaican times add up to 41.78. But even if they were accurate, they would still be misleading because the exchanges get factored into the splits of the first three legs. The splits of the anchors are the only true guage of relative footspeed on a 4x100 relay.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:44 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Smoke, the U.S. didn't beat Jamaica by 0.55s because of superior footspeed, they blew them out because of superior execution. I appreciate your flag-waving, but Madison does not have superior footspeed to SAFP, the world's fastest woman since 2008. And Knight isn't in the same class as VCB, who ran ran 10.81 in the 100 final. Knight will never run sub-11 in her career, much less 10.81, you mark my word. If SS had left on time and got out hard, SAFP would not have been forced to slam on brakes to keep from running past her. And VCB effectively surrendered her footspped advantage over Knight when she got out easy and put her arm back five meters before she reached the zone, thus delaying her acceleration and forcing SS to slow down to make the pass. On the other hand, Knight was almost halfway through the zone before she put her arm back which forced Felix to chase her down to make the pass. The bottom line is that Jamaica easily had enough footspeed to run sub-41 if they had executed better.

Jazz you seem to completely dismiss foot speed as if handoffs make it irrelevant. And you seem to think teams can actually execute 3 perfect handoffs.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:52 am

ATK wrote:Jazz you seem to completely dismiss foot speed as if handoffs make it irrelevant.

You have it backwards. I think footspeed and exchanges are important, but there are many on this board who think that footspeed (100 PR's) are the ONLY thing that matters. If I were a coach, I would put on the track the four fastest people that I could count on to reliably get the baton around the track efficiently.

ATK wrote:And you seem to think teams can actually execute 3 perfect handoffs.

Well, college teams do it. Why can't pro teams? Please give a logical reason why it's impossible.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby DJG » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:28 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
ATK wrote:Jazz you seem to completely dismiss foot speed as if handoffs make it irrelevant.

You have it backwards. I think footspeed and exchanges are important, but there are many on this board who think that footspeed (100 PR's) are the ONLY thing that matters. If I were a coach, I would put on the track the four fastest people that I could count on to reliably get the baton around the track efficiently.

ATK wrote:And you seem to think teams can actually execute 3 perfect handoffs.

Well, college teams do it. Why can't pro teams? Please give a logical reason why it's impossible.


Not impossible, just that USATF and the athletes do not place that much emphasis on the relay
for them to approach anything close to what would be perfect exchanges.
Why did the US men use two subs and change the order from the prelims?
To get 6 medals and to rest Gay and Bailey who needed no rest since neither ran the 200. If Gay had run the prelim and adjusted his mark for Gatlin, then the US men may have pulled off the biggest upset/surprise of the entire Games. As it was Gay left late and Gatlin had to slow down. Race over.

A higher priority is placed on getting medals - for old timers like Patton and Williams and newcomers like Tarmoh and Demps - than on chasing better handoffs for the relay.

As bad as the exchange was for Knight to Jeter (only the second time according to Knight's Flotrack interview) it was good enough for the win and the WR. No need to pursue pefection when you can easily beat the competition with average to good exchanges.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby gh » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:39 am

DJG wrote:....
Not impossible, just that USATF and the athletes do not place that much emphasis on the relay
for them to approach anything close to what would be perfect exchanges.....


I'm sure they place as much emphasis on it as is possible, given the circumstances. When a one-off race conflicts with your maximal preparation for your day job, your course is pretty much determined.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:50 am

DJG wrote:Not impossible, just that USATF and the athletes do not place that much emphasis on the relay
for them to approach anything close to what would be perfect exchanges.
Why did the US men use two subs and change the order from the prelims?
To get 6 medals and to rest Gay and Bailey who needed no rest since neither ran the 200. If Gay had run the prelim and adjusted his mark for Gatlin, then the US men may have pulled off the biggest upset/surprise of the entire Games. As it was Gay left late and Gatlin had to slow down. Race over.

A higher priority is placed on getting medals - for old timers like Patton and Williams and newcomers like Tarmoh and Demps - than on chasing better handoffs for the relay.

As bad as the exchange was for Knight to Jeter (only the second time according to Knight's Flotrack interview) it was good enough for the win and the WR. No need to pursue pefection when you can easily beat the competition with average to good exchanges.

Agreed. It wouldn't be that hard to get better exchanges if it was important to USATF, but they would rather have six silver medals than four gold medals, and they want to do this with little to no practice. Using two subs wouldn't be too bad if they worked on all the combinations in practice and in the pre-Olympic meets but they won't do this. As you pointed out, the men lost 0.2s or more on the exchange from Gatlin to Gay. The best college teams don't lose that much time on exchanges at championship time.

By the way, can you imagine how ugly the women's third exchange might have been if Jeter hadn't left earlier than her marked indicated?
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby Tuariki » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:54 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
ATK wrote:Jazz you seem to completely dismiss foot speed as if handoffs make it irrelevant.

You have it backwards. I think footspeed and exchanges are important, but there are many on this board who think that footspeed (100 PR's) are the ONLY thing that matters. If I were a coach, I would put on the track the four fastest people that I could count on to reliably get the baton around the track efficiently.

ATK wrote:And you seem to think teams can actually execute 3 perfect handoffs.

Well, college teams do it. Why can't pro teams? Please give a logical reason why it's impossible.

To make this a fair comparison you need to analyse each individual college team on their own. There are plenty of top college teams that regularly screw up baton changes and run to much less than the perfection seemingly ascribed to in this generalism.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:06 pm

Tuariki wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
ATK wrote:And you seem to think teams can actually execute 3 perfect handoffs.

Well, college teams do it. Why can't pro teams? Please give a logical reason why it's impossible.

To make this a fair comparison you need to analyse each individual college team on their own. There are plenty of top college teams that regularly screw up baton changes and run to much less than the perfection seemingly ascribed to in this generalism.

ATK implied that three perfect exchanges was impossible. All I'm saying is that over the years, I've seen some college teams execute three perfect exchanges which proves that it's not impossible. I never said that college teams never screw up.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby mal » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:27 pm

Making relay changes is not brain surgery. Kids do it well.

Just because the 'adults' occasionally fluff it, doesn't mean its tremendously difficult.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:07 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
ATK wrote:And you seem to think teams can actually execute 3 perfect handoffs.

Well, college teams do it. Why can't pro teams? Please give a logical reason why it's impossible.

If all 3 are perfect, its almost certainly due to luck not practice, or else they would be perfect every time.
Based off your idea of a perfect handoff that I have read througout numerous relay threads since about NCAA's, I have yet to see a perfect relay. (granted I would need to check every team and not just the top teams.)
Please provide me with a video of a perfect relay. (by the way LSU did not run a perfect relay, although they were very efficient and I would use their race as a training video.)
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:01 pm

ATK wrote:If all 3 are perfect, its almost certainly due to luck not practice, or else they would be perfect every time.

Bullshit! Humans aren't robots and the outgoing runner will never leave at exactly the same time from one race to the next no matter how many times they practice it. You can only hope that they will keep their margin of error within +/- 1/2 step. The fact that the 4x100 takes place outdoors and the incoming runner could be running with a tailwind one day and into a headwind the next day makes this type repeatability even more difficult. Similarly, Joe Montana probably threw to Jerry Rice on out routes over 10,000 times in practice and games during their time together, but the timing wasn't perfect all the time. My feeling is that if a team practices to be perfect, that team will achieve perfection more often than a team that practices for mediocrity, or a team that rarely practices at all.
ATK wrote:Based off your idea of a perfect handoff that I have read througout numerous relay threads since about NCAA's, I have yet to see a perfect relay. (granted I would need to check every team and not just the top teams.)
Please provide me with a video of a perfect relay. (by the way LSU did not run a perfect relay, although they were very efficient and I would use their race as a training video.)

I guess the first thing we need to do is define what perfect is. What's your defintion? Also, what's your critique of the 2012 LSU men at NCAA's?
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:44 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
ATK wrote:If all 3 are perfect, its almost certainly due to luck not practice, or else they would be perfect every time.

Bullshit! Humans aren't robots and the outgoing runner will never leave at exactly the same time from one race to the next no matter how many times they practice it. You can only hope that they will keep their margin of error within +/- 1/2 step. The fact that the 4x100 takes place outdoors and the incoming runner could be running with a tailwind one day and into a headwind the next day makes this type repeatability even more difficult. Similarly, Joe Montana probably threw to Jerry Rice on out routes over 10,000 times in practice and games during their time together, but the timing wasn't perfect all the time. My feeling is that if a team practices to be perfect, that team will achieve perfection more often than a team that practices for mediocrity, or a team that rarely practices at all.
ATK wrote:Based off your idea of a perfect handoff that I have read througout numerous relay threads since about NCAA's, I have yet to see a perfect relay. (granted I would need to check every team and not just the top teams.)
Please provide me with a video of a perfect relay. (by the way LSU did not run a perfect relay, although they were very efficient and I would use their race as a training video.)

I guess the first thing we need to do is define what perfect is. What's your defintion? Also, what's your critique of the 2012 LSU men at NCAA's?

That was my mistake, I contradicted myself saying they would be perfect every time. You are right. But I hold with saying a perfect relay can only be due to luck not practice.

Madison to Tarmoh in the London prelims is what I would call close to perfect. Stretching the zone to the incoming runner is as close to their top speed as possible, while the outgoing runner is already farther into their running than the first half of the zone.
Getting the athletes to pass the baton while having them running as fast as possible at that point in the race.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby DJG » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:28 pm

gh wrote:
DJG wrote:....
Not impossible, just that USATF and the athletes do not place that much emphasis on the relay
for them to approach anything close to what would be perfect exchanges.....


I'm sure they place as much emphasis on it as is possible, given the circumstances. When a one-off race conflicts with your maximal preparation for your day job, your course is pretty much determined.


GH, If what Knight said is true, that she and Jeter did only one exchange in practice, I would hardly call that much emphasis. I also do not think that a few handoffs, which involve sprinting, is really a conflict to their day job, which, I recall, is sprinting.

How do you explain the men's changing the order and using subs when it is totally unnecessary?
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby DJG » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:34 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
DJG wrote:Not impossible, just that USATF and the athletes do not place that much emphasis on the relay
for them to approach anything close to what would be perfect exchanges.
Why did the US men use two subs and change the order from the prelims?
To get 6 medals and to rest Gay and Bailey who needed no rest since neither ran the 200. If Gay had run the prelim and adjusted his mark for Gatlin, then the US men may have pulled off the biggest upset/surprise of the entire Games. As it was Gay left late and Gatlin had to slow down. Race over.

A higher priority is placed on getting medals - for old timers like Patton and Williams and newcomers like Tarmoh and Demps - than on chasing better handoffs for the relay.

As bad as the exchange was for Knight to Jeter (only the second time according to Knight's Flotrack interview) it was good enough for the win and the WR. No need to pursue pefection when you can easily beat the competition with average to good exchanges.

Agreed. It wouldn't be that hard to get better exchanges if it was important to USATF, but they would rather have six silver medals than four gold medals, and they want to do this with little to no practice. Using two subs wouldn't be too bad if they worked on all the combinations in practice and in the pre-Olympic meets but they won't do this. As you pointed out, the men lost 0.2s or more on the exchange from Gatlin to Gay. The best college teams don't lose that much time on exchanges at championship time.

By the way, can you imagine how ugly the women's third exchange might have been if Jeter hadn't left earlier than her marked indicated?


I thought we were going to have another "early touch" DQ. Knight could very easily have given the baton to Jeter before she was in the zone. Fortunately, either Knight waited or Jeter didn't put her hand back until they were in the zone.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:44 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:By the way, can you imagine how ugly the women's third exchange might have been if Jeter hadn't left earlier than her marked indicated?

Watching that exchange again, Jeter left "right on time". She turned a step before Knight hit the tape and as soon as she hit the tape she was out.

Regardless you have bee correct, the tape was way to close.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby Smoke » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:52 pm

Jazzy you need to stop posting you are looking like a flag a waver, which you clearly are. Nothing of what you have said is consistent. You quoted and cited 100 times to counter my post, in which I clearly told you times are not relevant. Then you turn around and reply to ATK by saying some rely on times in evaluating relays. Please stop and let it go.
I at no time have been flag waving. If you did not see this result after Penn you clearly were wishing with all ten of your toes crossed. Fact is, this is not about the 100 and if it were may I point out that the silver, and 4th and 5th placers were three of the 4 legs of the US team! Sherone has been weak for a few years and clearly not in her 2008 form. It was not merely execution that resulted in a .55 victory, they were faster. It was not SS getting out slow that allowed Allyson to run away from her. VCB was on the bend and coming off a double, on top of not being in any sort of 200 shape. Bianca was rested and it showed clearly in the final. Kerron was outclassed. All that you wrote is wishful thinking and flag waving. Let me help you out...

That was a very impressive race by both teams. I did not think the JAM girls had enough to tie the old wr, I did not think they could break their national record given the condition of the team. I did think the US women would break the wr given their run last year and their run at Penn this year. Too much speed. Only a botched handoff could cost them the gold. Kerron never had a shot at outrunning Jet. That is just common sense.

BTW watch it again, Jet turns just as BK approaches her mark and does not move until she has actually stepped over the mark. Shrug
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby fourjz » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:54 pm

Gotta confess again.Just got through looking at this great performance again.Ha Haha !! :mrgreen:
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby DCSIGMA » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:38 pm

fourjz wrote:Gotta confess again.Just got through looking at this great performance again.Ha Haha !! :mrgreen:



Don't worry I been watching and re-watching 2 on my DVR i dunno how many times i have watched it
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:34 am

Smoke, I merely called you out for your faulty logic, there's no reason to get personal. What the hell do you mean by flag-waving anyway? Are you accusing me of cheering for the U.S. or Jamaica for saying that Jamaica had the footspeed to go much faster? If you watched the first exchange from Shelly-Ann to Sherone and don't think they had the footspeed to break the old WR, then you either have bad eyesight or you're delusional. The old WR was soft and it shouldn't have taken Jamaica or the U.S. this long to break it, period. Furthermore, if you don't think 100 SB's are an objective measure of a team's footspeed, what is? Are we to accept that Bianca was faster than her SB indicates just because you say so? You're full of it if you do. The only thing that I will concede is that the SB's of the American and Jamaican women might not have been an accurate measure of their footspeed on race day, but it is the most objective measure. I can even see merit in correcting those times for wind and altitude, but I won't accept any baseless assertions, such as "the Americans had more footspeed because I say so".
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby j-a-m » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:10 am

Wikipedia right now lists the following medals for SAFP. Seriously, check it out before they fix it.
"Silver 2013 Moscow 4×100 m relay
Bronze 2013 Moscow 200 m"
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby Tuariki » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:31 am

j-a-m wrote:Wikipedia right now lists the following medals for SAFP. Seriously, check it out before they fix it.
"Silver 2013 Moscow 4×100 m relay
Bronze 2013 Moscow 200 m"

Gee whiz j-a-m. Don't you like SAFP anymore.
You forgot her gold in the 100m Moscow 2013
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