¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

[Tuariki]

All the arguments against Knight just don't stand up to scrutiny. Beebee is right. How can you argue against mission accomplished. Gold medal. World record obliterated. His decision on Knight over Tarmoh has been proven now and forever more to be the correct decision.

Could they have gone faster with Tarmoh. Yes, quite possibly, if the baton passes were exemplary.

However, did the other 3 on the relay team, and most importantly did Drummond, have confidence in Tarmoh being able to (1) execute both passes, and (2) run free of any emotional hang-ups she may have retained from Eugene. It appears not. I guess Drummond believed he had a higher percentage chance of accomplishing his mission with Knight.

[trackonthebrain]

TOTB, this is your problem: you don't know where the goalposts are? World rankings don't put you on relays. Pros are expected to be able to make their national team. Knight hasn't been able to do that - without Jon Drummonds help. Your other problem is thinking that your, TOTB, supposed placing at USATF has anything to do with this discussion. It doesn't, I'm embarrassed for you that you brought it up; like you once being an athlete adds any heft to an extraordinarily weak defense of Drummonds choices. Maybe you think that your participation helps your view point. It doesn't. Knight was judged in the finals at USOT/USATF and she couldn't get a 3rd, the position required to earn a spot in an individual event - not even in her supposed pet event.

And, yes, calling people "hater" because they disagree with you is childish; not wanting to support politics and favoritism is natural. But, your prediction that Knight would be an Olympic finalist at 200m, how'd that work out? You've been lobbying for knight for over a year; if you're not Drummond than you're someone closely aligned with the nonsense that allows more deserving athletes to be completely overlooked because coaches want to play favorites. This isn't just about Tarmoh; it's about ALL of the women who are passed over so that Knight can have a GIFT. It worked this time, next time the USA may not be so lucky.

OK, I get it, Tex. You don't want to talk about the substance. You'd rather get personal with me. No worries. This discussion isn't about BK getting an individual spot or my predictions. It's about Drummond's selection process and the results he has achieved - I have laid out several points - to which you fail to respond.

Bianca did make the National team the last 2 years and won Gold. This is a relay thread - not a thread about the 100 or 200. You can't denigrate her achievements by demanding that she do more - to be successful. Try your best to respond to the substantive points about: (1) what you mean by politics; (2) Drummond's 2011 and 2012 results; (3) whether Drummond should be fired; (4) the left handed vs right handed issue; (5) the subjectivity required from all coaches, etc.

You have failed to make a case for your position that Tarmoh should have been in the final. Please, again, what do you base your position on? Why do you feel Tarmoh should have run the final?

And FYI, I've been lobbying for BK since she was in the 8th grade - and guess what? I'm a fan of a bunch of other athletes as well.

[jazzcyclist]

For all the talk about the Jamaican women being down this year, they still brought 0.19s more footspeed to the final than the American women based on 100m SB's.

Jamaica
10.70+10.81+10.94+11.01 = 43.46

U.S.A.
10.78+10.85+10.89+11.13 = 43.65

Furthermore, on two other occasions, the Jamaican women brought more footspeed to a global final than the American women brought to the Olympic final this year.

Jamaica 2011
10.76+10.87+10.95+11.00 = 43.58

Jamaica 2008
10.78+10.80+10.87+10.87 = 43.32

In 2011, Jamaica ran 41.70 to finish second to an American team which had .20s less footspeed assuming you credit Allyson Felix with 11.00s speed which is probably generous considering the fact that she had devoted her season to the 400. In 2008, Jamaica DNF'ed in the final. The bottom line is that Jamaica has WR footspeed, they just need to improve their passing to match their footspeed. Shelly-Ann and Veronica won't be around forever. It would ashamed is they don't run sub-41 before they hand up their spikes..

Here are the passing efficiency numbers of Jamaica and the U.S. in global finals that they have finished over the last ten years.

2012: 2.05, 2.83
2011: 1.88, 2.22
2009: 1.72, DNQ
2008: DNF, DNQ
2007: 2.12, 1.96
2005: 2.32, 2.46
2004: 2.41, DNQ
2003: DNF, 2.27

EDIT: As you can see, the American women hadn't done such a great job of passing prior to London 2012. Never accept that the way things are is the way they have to be.

[EPelle]

One important factor to be considered when naming the 'footspeed': Wind adjustments. Are the cumulative 100m times being adjusted for wind to accurately gauge the basic ability of both teams?

[jazzcyclist]

One important factor to be considered when naming the 'footspeed': Wind adjustments. Are the cumulative 100m times being adjusted for wind to accurately gauge the basic ability of both teams?

No, I don't get into that stuff. I realize that it's not a perfect science, but I figure that over the course of a season, most runners will get to run at least once under favoravble, wind-legal conditions, unless that person isn't a 100m sprinter, in which case you'll have to guesstimate by using previous or successive SB's, 200 times, etc. Also, since you're taking the times of four runners, the conditions should average out. It would be very unusual for all four of the SB's to be run under bad conditions or freakishly good, wind-legal conditions.

[EPelle]

I contemplated this, because in 2011, the Jamaican team which entered with 10,76/10,87/10,95/11,00 bests for the 43,58 cumulative did so with +1,1/+2,0/+2,0/+2,0 winds.

Unfortunately, this doesn't quite support the contention that, "on two other occasions, the Jamaican women brought more footspeed to a global final than the American women brought to the Olympic final this year."

As far as the conditions being able to 'average themselves out', you're spot on: 43,58 for Jamaica becomes 10,83/10,99/11,07/11,12 for a cumulative 44,01, which is the exact same basic footspeed the USA brought to the London 4x1 final (10,78 (+1,5) +10,85 (+1,5) +10,89 (+1,5) +11,13 (+1,4) = 43,65 -->10,87/10,94/10,98/11,22 = 44,01).

These adjustments may change the outcome of your passing efficiency numbers. But, it's not a precise science.

[toyracer]

The bottom line is that Jamaica has WR footspeed, they just need to improve their passing to match their footspeed.

Importantly, this is the first year that they, IMHO, got the run order right.

[jamal00005]

The bottom line is that Jamaica has WR footspeed, they just need to improve their passing to match their footspeed.

Importantly, this is the first year that they, IMHO, got the run order right.

I completely agree this is the first time they ran that line up and the more they work on it the better it would become once everyone also increases their foot speed

[jazzcyclist]

I completely agree this is the first time they ran that line up and the more they work on it the better it would become once everyone also increases their foot speed

But they had more footspeed than the U.S. this year. The only time they've ever had more footspeed is in 2008.

[jamal00005]

I completely agree this is the first time they ran that line up and the more they work on it the better it would become once everyone also increases their foot speed

But they had more footspeed than the U.S. this year. The only time they've ever had more footspeed is in 2008.

I know the US had more foot speed but if it is Gods willing next year, and everyone can be race sharp or back to their best (kerron and sherone) ,I think this same line up can lower their national record but whether they can break the WR is another thing .

[lonewolf]

Imo, comparing "foot speed" in handicapping relays is iffy unless set at the same time and place and not one-off occurences. More meaningful is repeated wins over the same or mutual competitors.
Then there is the matter of getting the baton around..

[jazzcyclist]

I know the US had more foot speed but if it is Gods willing next year, and everyone can be race sharp or back to their best (kerron and sherone) ,I think this same line up can lower their national record but whether they can break the WR is another thing .

I think you misread my post. Jamaica's women had the greater footspeed in London, not the U.S. women. Do the math.

Jamaica - 10.70, 10.81, 10.94, 11.01
U.S.A. - 10.78, 10.85, 10.89, 11.13

[jazzcyclist]

Imo, comparing "foot speed" in handicapping relays is iffy unless set at the same time and place and not one-off occurences. More meaningful is repeated wins over the same or mutual competitors.
Then there is the matter of getting the baton around..

It's not a perfect science, but as I said earlier, the of law of averages works to somewhat diminish the significance of the varying conditions when you take the SB's of four different runners per team. If it were a 20x100 instead of a 4x100, the varying conditions would be negligible.

[toyracer]

The bottom line is that Jamaica has WR footspeed, they just need to improve their passing to match their footspeed.

Importantly, this is the first year that they, IMHO, got the run order right.

I completely agree this is the first time they ran that line up and the more they work on it the better it would become once everyone also increases their foot speed

More foot speed would certainly be nice but the emphasis must be placed on smooth quick baton exchanges. The current line up, in their current form, have the capability to go much lower. Right now it's about the passing as jazzycyclist mentioned above. They need to keep practicing with the run order they now have.

[gh]

...
I think you misread my post. Jamaica's women had the greater footspeed in London, not the U.S. women. Do the math.

Jamaica - 10.70, 10.81, 10.94, 11.01
U.S.A. - 10.78, 10.85, 10.89, 11.13

Two important things to remember about 100 bests and relays:

•three of the people have the start removed from the equation, so if a good getaway is part of your 100 skill, you may actually be notably slower over a flying 100m than somebody who has a better 200 time for example.

•two of the four legs are run on the curve, and not everybody possesses the same skills there.

Depending on how those things shake out, it's possible that one team with apparently better numbers actually is the same/inferior the other team. I suspect those factors probably even out between two teams more often than not, but the possibility of that being important is very real.

[jazzcyclist]

...
I think you misread my post. Jamaica's women had the greater footspeed in London, not the U.S. women. Do the math.

Jamaica - 10.70, 10.81, 10.94, 11.01
U.S.A. - 10.78, 10.85, 10.89, 11.13

Two important things to remember about 100 bests and relays:

•three of the people have the start removed from the equation, so if a good getaway is part of your 100 skill, you may actually be notably slower over a flying 100m than somebody who has a better 200 time for example.

•two of the four legs are run on the curve, and not everybody possesses the same skills there.

Depending on how those things shake out, it's possible that one team with apparently better numbers actually is the same/inferior the other team. I suspect those factors probably even out between two teams more often than not, but the possibility of that being important is very real.

I agree with all of this. It's why no coach worth his salt would ever put Wallace Spearmon on scratch leg or Jeff Demps on anchor. In previous years, the only place that it made sense to put SAFP was on scratch leg because of the reasons you've given, but with her newfound 200 prowess, she may have the best start AND the best top end on the whole team. Assuming her left hand doesn't have the same affliction that Bolt's does, this gives the coaches a lot more flexibility with her placement in the lineup.

[ATK]

Bianca Knight claims that Felix and her never did any hand-offs, and her and Jeter did 1 in practice.

What exactly happens in relay camp then?

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/249663 ... dual-goals

[The Klingon]

Bianca Knight claims that Felix and her never did any hand-offs, and her and Jeter did 1 in practice.

What exactly happens in relay camp then?

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/249663 ... dual-goals

Thats a damn good question, ATK.

[MightyBurner]

I knew in April when I saw the same exact team run 42.19 on a cold day at a cold Franklin Field that this record was going down. I wouldn't be surprised if they come close to lowering it again next year. The US women's 4x1 relay pool is like nine or ten deep at this point.. It's pretty ridiculous.

[guru]

I knew in April when I saw the same exact team run 42.19 on a cold day at a cold Franklin Field that this record was going down. I wouldn't be surprised if they come close to lowering it again next year.

It's scary to think what they might run if Hooker returns from maternity leave to her 2011 form.

[Tuariki]

I knew in April when I saw the same exact team run 42.19 on a cold day at a cold Franklin Field that this record was going down. I wouldn't be surprised if they come close to lowering it again next year. The US women's 4x1 relay pool is like nine or ten deep at this point.. It's pretty ridiculous.

What's ridiculous about it? With 120 times more people than Jamaica the USA should be even deeper

[ATK]

I knew in April when I saw the same exact team run 42.19 on a cold day at a cold Franklin Field that this record was going down. I wouldn't be surprised if they come close to lowering it again next year.

It's scary to think what they might run if Hooker returns from maternity leave to her 2011 form.

Curious How often sprinters successfully return from maternity the following year and continue at the high level they left off?

The only sprinter that comes to my head in recent times is Demus in 2008.

[jazzcyclist]

Bianca Knight claims that Felix and her never did any hand-offs, and her and Jeter did 1 in practice.

What exactly happens in relay camp then?

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/249663 ... dual-goals

One thing that has been completely overlooked in all the excitement over the record is Jeter's go-mark on the third exchange and how she completely ignored it, leaving way early based on the mark. If she had left on the mark, that exchange would have been very ugly, with Knight probably running past Jeter. Hopefully gh or someone else at TF&N will ask her about it when they get around to interviewing her.

[jazzcyclist]

Bianca Knight claims that Felix and her never did any hand-offs, and her and Jeter did 1 in practice.

Based on what a former national team coach told me he observed at these relay camps, and the placement of Jeter's go-mark, I find this very credible. Perhaps Drummind is getting more credit than he deserves.

[Marlow]

The US women's 4x1 relay pool is like nine or ten deep at this point.. It's pretty ridiculous.

What's ridiculous about it? With 120 times more people than Jamaica the USA should be even deeper

Looking at the annual list, it IS ridiculous how many sub-11.20s BOTH countries have!
And to Jam's credit, up through the 8th position they are the same. USA's depth doesn't take over till after that (well after what should be relay poolibility (despite BK's relative low rank)).

10.70 Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce JAM
10.78 Carmelita Jeter USA
10.81 Veronica Campbell-Brown JAM
10.85 Tianna Madison USA
10.89 Allyson Felix USA
10.94 Kerron Stewart JAM
10.96 Kimberlyn Duncan USA
11.01 Ashley Collier USA
11.01 Sherone Simpson JAM
11.04 Aleen Bailey JAM
11.05 Sheri-Ann Brooks JAM
11.05 Schillonie Calvert JAM
11.07 Jeneba Tarmoh USA
11.09 Octavious Freeman USA
11.10 English Gardner USA
11.11 LaShauntea Moore USA
11.11 Samantha Henry-Robinson JAM
11.12 Alexandria Anderson USA
11.13 Mikele Barber USA
11.13 Bianca Knight USA
11.13 ChaRonda Williams USA
11.15 Chelsea Hayes USA
11.15 Lauryn Williams USA
11.19 Aurieyall Scott USA

[TrakFan]

Curious How often sprinters successfully return from maternity the following year and continue at the high level they left off?

The only sprinter that comes to my head in recent times is Demus in 2008.

Evelyn Ashford: Baby 1985...#1 Ranking T&F News 1986

I'm sure there are plenty of others, but female athletes (in general) seem to return stronger and more focused when they return to competing after having children.

[26mi235]

Any calculation of the four individual times that does not adjust for wind is both biased (almost certainly) and unnecessarily inaccurate.

Also, for runners that are not at the top, individual best marks are probably an underestimate of their true speed because the marks do not have advantages like the fastest track in the world and a huge effort to hone starts etc.

Finally, as gh observed, the start is no longer so important and curve running is. However, when assessing Jamaica, they were strong here as both top 200 runners where running the curve and the best starter in the business was the starter. It is not clear why they were so much behind the US other than lack of as exemplary execution -- could not be too bad as they took down the NR and are pretty high on the all-time list. However, it might be the case that they have the fastest 'PR' team on paper (but not with this year's PRs?).

[Marlow]

Any calculation of the four individual times that does not adjust for wind is both biased (almost certainly) and unnecessarily inaccurate. Also, for runners that are not at the top, individual best marks are probably an underestimate of their true speed because the marks do not have advantages like the fastest track in the world and a huge effort to hone starts etc.

Any other measure of speed is fraught with LESS reliable variables. If I'm a relay coach, I'm looking at the times my athletes have run first and foremost. Certainly there are other factors: experience, 200 success (curve running), starting (dis)ability, kinesthetic sense (baton-handling), but SPEED kills, and I wanna be lethal.

[lapsus]

Quite odd that the discussion thread about a 40.82 WR now centers on whether one team member should have run or not.

Me, I'm still waiting for the splits. Anybody seen them?

[jazzcyclist]

Any calculation of the four individual times that does not adjust for wind is both biased (almost certainly) and unnecessarily inaccurate.

Bias implies cherry picking which I most certainly did not do. As I said earlier, these things have a tendency to average out somewhat when you're taking the SB's of four runners per team. Furthermore, we all know that these wind calclulators are imperfect since equal wind readings in different races, on different tracks or on different days doesn't necessarily mean equal wind assistance.

Also, for runners that are not at the top, individual best marks are probably an underestimate of their true speed because the marks do not have advantages like the fastest track in the world and a huge effort to hone starts etc.

But that wouldn't be the case when you're talking about runners on the Jamaican and U.S. teams who all get to run in the best meets and on the fastest tracks.

It is not clear why they were so much behind the US other than lack of as exemplary execution -- could not be too bad as they took down the NR and are pretty high on the all-time list.

It's very clear to me. Look at the videos of this years race and global finals from previous years. Look at videos of the best college teams and the 1990 French national team. Pay close attention to the details. Look at where the exchanges are made and whether the incoming runner had to slam on brakes to make the pass or chase the outgoing runner to make it, the way Felix had to chase Knight. Also look at the outgoing runners' acceleration - did they take off like they were running a 100 or a 5000? Also look at how early they put their hands back to recieve the baton and how long they ran with their hand back before the pass was made - runners don't accelerate to well when they aren't driving both arms.

This is the first time I've seen a national team approach the passing of the best college teams since the 2004 Athens men's final, when the U.K. beat the U.S. despite having 1.2s less footspeed on the track. The men's team that the U.S. put on the track in London only had 0.1s more footspeed than the team that ran in Athens, but they ran more than a second faster. It just goes to show you how soft those records really were.

[jazzcyclist]

If I'm a relay coach, I'm looking at the times my athletes have run first and foremost. Certainly there are other factors: experience, 200 success (curve running), starting (dis)ability, kinesthetic sense (baton-handling), but SPEED kills, and I wanna be lethal.

Aahhh! Another worshiper of the false god of footspeed.

[guru]

Bianca Knight claims that Felix and her never did any hand-offs, and her and Jeter did 1 in practice.

I'm not sure that's entirely truthful.

https://p.twimg.com/Ayq8SZ3CEAAHiPk.jpg:large

[preston]

Bianca Knight claims that Felix and her never did any hand-offs, and her and Jeter did 1 in practice.

I'm not sure that's entirely truthful.

https://p.twimg.com/Ayq8SZ3CEAAHiPk.jpg:large

So, according to Knight, she never did handoffs with Felix and she only did one with Jeter...so what was practice about except strapping on "hi-tech" equipment?

[Marlow]

If I'm a relay coach, I'm looking at the times my athletes have run first and foremost. Certainly there are other factors: experience, 200 success (curve running), starting (dis)ability, kinesthetic sense (baton-handling), but SPEED kills, and I wanna be lethal.

Aahhh! Another worshiper of the false god of footspeed.

Yeah, cuz we all know how fast an athlete can run is waaaay over-rated in the sprints . . .

[jazzcyclist]

If I'm a relay coach, I'm looking at the times my athletes have run first and foremost. Certainly there are other factors: experience, 200 success (curve running), starting (dis)ability, kinesthetic sense (baton-handling), but SPEED kills, and I wanna be lethal.

Aahhh! Another worshiper of the false god of footspeed.

Yeah, cuz we all know how fast an athlete can run is waaaay over-rated in the sprints .

That's funny. I thought we were talking about the 4x100 relay, not the open 100. In the 4x400, it's all about having the horses, but not so much in the 4x100. But if you don't believe me, perhaps you can explain how these four guys

Gardner (10.12)
Campbell (10.21)
Devonish (10.32)
Lewis-Francis (10.12)

beat these four guys

Crawford (9.88)
Gatlin (9.85)
Miller (9.99)
Greene (9.87)

in 2004.