ATK wrote:What gets me is when people claim a record is weak, or over due for being broken. I don't understand how that makes sense. Especially with a record that has been in the books for so long. If the record was really that weak, it would have been broken before. Getting close is not breaking it, and breaking it is not easy.
I explained why it was weak and why it hadn't been broken
mump boy wrote:...It was a weak record that was nearly broken in 93 and 97 and should have been many times since, by a team that actually bothered to practice baton changing
So your telling me that no team has bothered to practice hand offs since 1985...
ATK wrote:So your telling me that no team has bothered to practice hand offs since 1985...
Neither Jamaica nor the U.S. has ever taken stick passing seriously and that's what's relevant to the debate. The East German women and the French men of the early 1990's took it seriously, but they never had the footspeed to lower the record to sub-41 and sub-37 respectively, but they did set world records.
ATK wrote:So your telling me that no team has bothered to practice hand offs since 1985...
Neither Jamaica nor the U.S. has ever taken stick passing seriously and that's what's relevant to the debate. The East German women and the French men of the early 1990's took it seriously, but they never had the footspeed to lower the record to sub-41 and sub-37 respectively, but they did set world records.
Like I said....so your telling me that NO TEAM has bothered to practice handoffs since 1985?
There are many teams especially US ones that have had 4 faster sprinters than that in the last 30 years but they didn't have the baton speed
Lets look at some of the other fastest 4x1 teams and compare foot speed v baton speed
US of 97 41.47 has seasons bests .3 faster on paper but were .1 slower
Devers 10.88 Gaines 11.19 Jones 10.76 Miller 11.04
US team 93 41.47 .15 faster - .1 slower
Devers 10.82 Finn 11.16 Vereen 11.17 Torrence 10.86
RUS 93 Now here's a team that made up time with technique (although it should be note SB are probably not representative of true speed) .64 slower - .1 slower !!
US 88 41.98 - This team could have SMASHED the WR but changeovers especially last one were APPALLING. SB 1.11 faster !! - .61 slower
Brown Alice - 10.92 Echols Sheila - 10.83 Griffith-Joyner Florence 10.49 Ashford Evelyn 10.81
JAM 08 the crack JAM squad of 08 dropped the baton the one time they all ran together
.84 faster - NM
SAFP 10.78 Kerron 10.80 Sherone 10.87 VCB 10.87
US 12- Not even fastest team on paper but still
.51 faster .55 faster !! This is because of superior baton changing than previous teams PLUS foot speed, when both are combined for the first time this is the result
Jeter - 10.78 Madison - 10.85 Felix - 10.89 Knight 11.13
This is not a comprehensive list and I know that 100m times do not necessarily translate to a relay but If any one of these teams had had had the baton passing skills of GDR the WR would be long gone and if US 88 had, it would stand for another 30 years
I wouldn't suggest that these are definitive, but looking closely at the video fo the race I have splits of:
Madison 11.0, Felix 9.9, Knight 10.2, Jeter 9.7 Fraser 11.1, Simpson 10.2, Campbell-Brown 10.1, Stewart 10.0
What is clear is that Jamaica loses at least 0.1 on the first changeover and a similar amount on the final handover. Jeter is clearly moving quicker than Stewart as they set off with their batons. Equally it looks as though Madison was into her running much more sharply than fraser. It may just be that doubling up fatigued Fraser.
ATK wrote:Like I said....so your telling me that NO TEAM has bothered to practice handoffs since 1985?
I said Jamaica and the U.S. What part of that don't you understand?
So explain how the record was weak if only two countries were capable of practicing enough to break it... And only one has actually done it....
Because they've both had the talent to break is considerably. ..... .....
This is not a comprehensive list and I know that 100m times do not necessarily translate to a relay but If any one of these teams had had had the baton passing skills of GDR the WR would be long gone and if US 88 had, it would stand for another 30 years
But they obviously didn't have the talent if they didn't break it... Like you said, 100 times don't necessarily translate to the relay. If you don't have the baton passing down, you don't have the full relay talent. You cant say they should have destroyed the record if they only had 50% of the talent needed to do so.
ATK wrote:But they obviously didn't have the talent if they didn't break it... Like you said, 100 times don't necessarily translate to the relay. If you don't have the baton passing down, you don't have the full relay talent. You cant say they should have destroyed the record if they only had 50% of the talent needed to do so.
Most people on this board consider baton passing an acquired skill, not an innate talent like footspeed.
t_monk wrote:I don't see the big debate.... The previous record in no way was as unbeatable as people were making it out to be....
That's the whole point but some people would rather argue semantics than concede the point that this record could have gone yonks ago with a little attention to baton passing
Last edited by mump boy on Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
I agree 100% that baton passing is learned, but that doesn't make the record weak. Hurdling, high jumping, hammer throwing, pole vaulting, triple jumping, etc (most non flat running events)are all events that require a big portion of learned abilities. But I wouldn't go and say all their records are weak. The fact that it takes a good amount of time and practice for 4 ladies to actually break the record just shows how tough the record is/was. I think its pretty straight forward. If the record was that weak it would have been broken.
ATK wrote:I agree 100% that baton passing is learned, but that doesn't make the record weak. Hurdling, high jumping, hammer throwing, pole vaulting, triple jumping, etc (most non flat running events)are all events that require a big portion of learned abilities. But I wouldn't go and say all their records are weak.
The big difference between the 4x100 and hurdling, high jumping, hammer throwing, etc. is that pro sprinters rarely practice baton passing and rarely run 4x100 races, compared to athletes in those other disciplines who practice their cratfs daily.
ATK wrote:The fact that it takes a good amount of time and practice for 4 ladies to actually break the record just shows how tough the record is/was.
It just shows a lack of commitment on the part of USATF, nothing else. If for example, the USATF made participation in relay camps and pre-Olympic relay meets a prerequisite for participating in individual events at the Olympics and World Championships, those records would have been broken a long time ago. As it is now, sprinters just blow off these meets and camps without any fear of repercusssions.
ATK wrote:I think its pretty straight forward. If the record was that weak it would have been broken.
You're welcome to believe what you want, but that doesn't make it so.
at this point I've split off a page and a half of posts relative to the whole '88 Seoul race and moved to Historical Forum, where it more properly belongs.
ATK wrote:Like I said....so your telling me that NO TEAM has bothered to practice handoffs since 1985?
I said Jamaica and the U.S. What part of that don't you understand?
So explain how the record was weak if only two countries were capable of practicing enough to break it... And only one has actually done it....
US 88 41.98 - This team could have SMASHED the WR but changeovers especially last one were APPALLING. SB 1.11 faster !! - .61 slower
Brown Alice - 10.92 Echols Sheila - 10.83 Griffith-Joyner Florence 10.49 Ashford Evelyn 10.81
US 12- Not even fastest team on paper but still
.51 faster .55 faster !! This is because of superior baton changing than previous teams PLUS foot speed, when both are combined for the first time this is the result
Jeter - 10.78 Madison - 10.85 Felix - 10.89 Knight 11.13
This is not a comprehensive list and I know that 100m times do not necessarily translate to a relay but If any one of these teams had had had the baton passing skills of GDR the WR would be long gone and if US 88 had, it would stand for another 30 years
Way over exaggerate the ability of the 1988 US team, as three of these SB are related to the stupid QF in the US trials. The real SBs are: Alice Brown 11.03 Sheila Echoles 10.99 Flo - Jo 10.61 Ashford 10.81 Which suggest that they are “only” 0.72 faster. I believe that the 2012 team has only slightly less foot speed because of the “Felix effect” (a real poor starter with excellent 10-110 meter speed). Also, the US team of 1987 (Brown - Williams - Flojo - Marshal ) had a wonderful changes (probably the best ever American changes). They ran 41.55 to win the world championship when the SB are: Brown: 11.01 Williams: 11.07 Flo-Jo: 10.96 Marshal: 11.01
