¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!


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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:32 pm

mump boy wrote:
ATK wrote:What gets me is when people claim a record is weak, or over due for being broken. I don't understand how that makes sense. Especially with a record that has been in the books for so long. If the record was really that weak, it would have been broken before. Getting close is not breaking it, and breaking it is not easy.


I explained why it was weak and why it hadn't been broken :?


mump boy wrote:...It was a weak record that was nearly broken in 93 and 97 and should have been many times since, by a team that actually bothered to practice baton changing

So your telling me that no team has bothered to practice hand offs since 1985... :?
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:46 pm

ATK wrote:So your telling me that no team has bothered to practice hand offs since 1985... :?

Neither Jamaica nor the U.S. has ever taken stick passing seriously and that's what's relevant to the debate. The East German women and the French men of the early 1990's took it seriously, but they never had the footspeed to lower the record to sub-41 and sub-37 respectively, but they did set world records.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:12 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
ATK wrote:So your telling me that no team has bothered to practice hand offs since 1985... :?

Neither Jamaica nor the U.S. has ever taken stick passing seriously and that's what's relevant to the debate. The East German women and the French men of the early 1990's took it seriously, but they never had the footspeed to lower the record to sub-41 and sub-37 respectively, but they did set world records.

Like I said....so your telling me that NO TEAM has bothered to practice handoffs since 1985?
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:38 pm

ATK wrote:Like I said....so your telling me that NO TEAM has bothered to practice handoffs since 1985?

I said Jamaica and the U.S. What part of that don't you understand?
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:51 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
ATK wrote:Like I said....so your telling me that NO TEAM has bothered to practice handoffs since 1985?

I said Jamaica and the U.S. What part of that don't you understand?

So explain how the record was weak if only two countries were capable of practicing enough to break it...
And only one has actually done it....
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby mump boy » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:57 am

ATK wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
ATK wrote:Like I said....so your telling me that NO TEAM has bothered to practice handoffs since 1985?

I said Jamaica and the U.S. What part of that don't you understand?

So explain how the record was weak if only two countries were capable of practicing enough to break it...
And only one has actually done it....


Because they've both had the talent to break is considerably.

For example

The GDR team of '85 41.37 had seasons bests of

Auerswald 11.12
Gunthor 11.19
Gohr- 10.86
Gladisch 10.99

There are many teams especially US ones that have had 4 faster sprinters than that in the last 30 years but they didn't have the baton speed

Lets look at some of the other fastest 4x1 teams and compare foot speed v baton speed

US of 97 41.47 has seasons bests .3 faster on paper but were .1 slower

Devers 10.88
Gaines 11.19
Jones 10.76
Miller 11.04

US team 93 41.47 .15 faster - .1 slower

Devers 10.82
Finn 11.16
Vereen 11.17
Torrence 10.86

RUS 93 Now here's a team that made up time with technique (although it should be note SB are probably not representative of true speed) .64 slower - .1 slower !!

Bogoslovskaya 11.31
Malchugina 11.38 (but 10.92 in '92)
Voronova 11.17
Privalova- 10.94

US 88 41.98 - This team could have SMASHED the WR but changeovers especially last one were APPALLING. SB 1.11 faster !! - .61 slower

Brown Alice - 10.92
Echols Sheila - 10.83
Griffith-Joyner Florence 10.49
Ashford Evelyn 10.81

JAM 08 the crack JAM squad of 08 dropped the baton the one time they all ran together

.84 faster - NM

SAFP 10.78
Kerron 10.80
Sherone 10.87
VCB 10.87

US 12- Not even fastest team on paper but still

.51 faster .55 faster !! This is because of superior baton changing than previous teams PLUS foot speed, when both are combined for the first time this is the result

Jeter - 10.78
Madison - 10.85
Felix - 10.89
Knight 11.13

This is not a comprehensive list and I know that 100m times do not necessarily translate to a relay but If any one of these teams had had had the baton passing skills of GDR the WR would be long gone and if US 88 had, it would stand for another 30 years
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby rhymans » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:25 am

I wouldn't suggest that these are definitive, but looking closely at the video fo the race I have splits of:

Madison 11.0, Felix 9.9, Knight 10.2, Jeter 9.7
Fraser 11.1, Simpson 10.2, Campbell-Brown 10.1, Stewart 10.0

What is clear is that Jamaica loses at least 0.1 on the first changeover and a similar amount on the final handover. Jeter is clearly moving quicker than Stewart as they set off with their batons. Equally it looks as though Madison was into her running much more sharply than fraser. It may just be that doubling up fatigued Fraser.

All in all a wondeful race to watch.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:14 am

Fraser's split was artificially slow due to the fact that she had to slam on brakes before she reached the 100m mark.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:55 am

mump boy wrote:
ATK wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
ATK wrote:Like I said....so your telling me that NO TEAM has bothered to practice handoffs since 1985?

I said Jamaica and the U.S. What part of that don't you understand?

So explain how the record was weak if only two countries were capable of practicing enough to break it...
And only one has actually done it....


Because they've both had the talent to break is considerably.
.....
.....

This is not a comprehensive list and I know that 100m times do not necessarily translate to a relay but If any one of these teams had had had the baton passing skills of GDR the WR would be long gone and if US 88 had, it would stand for another 30 years

But they obviously didn't have the talent if they didn't break it...
Like you said, 100 times don't necessarily translate to the relay. If you don't have the baton passing down, you don't have the full relay talent. You cant say they should have destroyed the record if they only had 50% of the talent needed to do so.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby toyracer » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:55 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Fraser's split was artificially slow due to the fact that she had to slam on brakes before she reached the 100m mark.


That may be so but I'd agree that as I was watching live she was slower than expected. Most likely due to fatigue having run the double.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby mump boy » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:10 am

ATK wrote: If you don't have the baton passing down, you don't have the full relay talent.


Which was my whole point :?

Baton passing can be learned with practice, speed not so much
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:12 am

ATK wrote:But they obviously didn't have the talent if they didn't break it...
Like you said, 100 times don't necessarily translate to the relay. If you don't have the baton passing down, you don't have the full relay talent. You cant say they should have destroyed the record if they only had 50% of the talent needed to do so.

Most people on this board consider baton passing an acquired skill, not an innate talent like footspeed.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby EPelle » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:52 am

You do need the requisite skills -- learned and developed -- to efficiently pass the baton. That becomes an acquired talent.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:59 am

EPelle wrote:You do need the requisite skills -- learned and developed -- to efficiently pass the baton. That becomes an acquired talent.

I guess this is an argument over semantics. I disagree with your interpretation of the English language in this instance.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby t_monk » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:44 am

I don't see the big debate.... The previous record in no way was as unbeatable as people were making it out to be....
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby mump boy » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:05 am

t_monk wrote:I don't see the big debate.... The previous record in no way was as unbeatable as people were making it out to be....


That's the whole point but some people would rather argue semantics than concede the point that this record could have gone yonks ago with a little attention to baton passing
Last edited by mump boy on Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:05 am

t_monk wrote:I don't see the big debate.... The previous record in no way was as unbeatable as people were making it out to be....

Explain that to ATK. He seems to believe that the Jamaican men and the American women caught lightning in a bottle, a la Bob Beamon.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:15 am

I agree 100% that baton passing is learned, but that doesn't make the record weak.
Hurdling, high jumping, hammer throwing, pole vaulting, triple jumping, etc (most non flat running events)are all events that require a big portion of learned abilities. But I wouldn't go and say all their records are weak.
The fact that it takes a good amount of time and practice for 4 ladies to actually break the record just shows how tough the record is/was. I think its pretty straight forward. If the record was that weak it would have been broken.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby ATK » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:26 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
t_monk wrote:I don't see the big debate.... The previous record in no way was as unbeatable as people were making it out to be....

Explain that to ATK. He seems to believe that the Jamaican men and the American women caught lightning in a bottle, a la Bob Beamon.

Not sure where the men came into the disscussion. I never even mentioned them...
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:30 am

ATK wrote:I agree 100% that baton passing is learned, but that doesn't make the record weak.
Hurdling, high jumping, hammer throwing, pole vaulting, triple jumping, etc (most non flat running events)are all events that require a big portion of learned abilities. But I wouldn't go and say all their records are weak.
The big difference between the 4x100 and hurdling, high jumping, hammer throwing, etc. is that pro sprinters rarely practice baton passing and rarely run 4x100 races, compared to athletes in those other disciplines who practice their cratfs daily.

ATK wrote:The fact that it takes a good amount of time and practice for 4 ladies to actually break the record just shows how tough the record is/was.

It just shows a lack of commitment on the part of USATF, nothing else. If for example, the USATF made participation in relay camps and pre-Olympic relay meets a prerequisite for participating in individual events at the Olympics and World Championships, those records would have been broken a long time ago. As it is now, sprinters just blow off these meets and camps without any fear of repercusssions.

ATK wrote:I think its pretty straight forward. If the record was that weak it would have been broken.

You're welcome to believe what you want, but that doesn't make it so.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby gh » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:09 am

at this point I've split off a page and a half of posts relative to the whole '88 Seoul race and moved to Historical Forum, where it more properly belongs.
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Re: ¶2012 OG: w4x100–United States 40.82 WR !!!!

Postby olorin » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:15 pm

mump boy wrote:
ATK wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
ATK wrote:Like I said....so your telling me that NO TEAM has bothered to practice handoffs since 1985?

I said Jamaica and the U.S. What part of that don't you understand?

So explain how the record was weak if only two countries were capable of practicing enough to break it...
And only one has actually done it....



US 88 41.98 - This team could have SMASHED the WR but changeovers especially last one were APPALLING. SB 1.11 faster !! - .61 slower

Brown Alice - 10.92
Echols Sheila - 10.83
Griffith-Joyner Florence 10.49
Ashford Evelyn 10.81

US 12- Not even fastest team on paper but still

.51 faster .55 faster !! This is because of superior baton changing than previous teams PLUS foot speed, when both are combined for the first time this is the result

Jeter - 10.78
Madison - 10.85
Felix - 10.89
Knight 11.13

This is not a comprehensive list and I know that 100m times do not necessarily translate to a relay but If any one of these teams had had had the baton passing skills of GDR the WR would be long gone and if US 88 had, it would stand for another 30 years


Way over exaggerate the ability of the 1988 US team, as three of these SB are related to the stupid QF in the US trials.
The real SBs are:
Alice Brown 11.03
Sheila Echoles 10.99
Flo - Jo 10.61
Ashford 10.81
Which suggest that they are “only” 0.72 faster. I believe that the 2012 team has only slightly less foot speed because of the “Felix effect” (a real poor starter with excellent 10-110 meter speed).
Also, the US team of 1987 (Brown - Williams - Flojo - Marshal ) had a wonderful changes (probably the best ever American changes). They ran 41.55 to win the world championship when the SB are:
Brown: 11.01
Williams: 11.07
Flo-Jo: 10.96
Marshal: 11.01
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