Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

[gh]

while it can be handy to have somebody act as a bit of a wind break for you, I've never really bought into the theory that drafting would have any significant effect (or even work) at such slow speeds.

[ATK]

while it can be handy to have somebody act as a bit of a wind break for you, I've never really bought into the theory that drafting would have any significant effect (or even work) at such slow speeds.

Even so, I doubt it comes close to outweighing the extra distance run.

[j-a-m]

Yeah, but the extra distance run on the curves is outweighed by the benefits of drafting for the entire lap.

What about the rabbit / pace setter effect?

[gh]

totally different concept on a 400 relay leg than in distance running.

[jazzcyclist]

while it can be handy to have somebody act as a bit of a wind break for you, I've never really bought into the theory that drafting would have any significant effect (or even work) at such slow speeds.

You're mistaken. At 18 mph for women and 20 mph for men, there is absolutely a measurable draft benefit.

[ATK]

while it can be handy to have somebody act as a bit of a wind break for you, I've never really bought into the theory that drafting would have any significant effect (or even work) at such slow speeds.

You're mistaken. At 18 mph for women and 20 mph for men, there is absolutely a measurable draft benefit.

Your talking about the fastest athletes ever running at those speeds. If im correct, most of these athletes don't go that fast in the 400m.

[Peter Michaelson]

NotSoOrdinary:

Please refresh my memory. What happened with Trotter on the relay in Osaka?

aaronk:

Am I missing something? The first split is from the gun to the 800 start line. The second split is from the 800 start line to the finish line. The third and fourth splits are finish line to finish line. As long as you can see the 800 start line (which is the 1 turn stagger line) you should not have a problem.

[jazzcyclist]

while it can be handy to have somebody act as a bit of a wind break for you, I've never really bought into the theory that drafting would have any significant effect (or even work) at such slow speeds.

You're mistaken. At 18 mph for women and 20 mph for men, there is absolutely a measurable draft benefit.

Your talking about the fastest athletes ever running at those speeds. If im correct, most of these athletes don't go that fast in the 400m.

I'm tallking about mid-49 splits for the women and mid-44 splits for the women, which is about average for a American national team, if not slightly below average. The fastest splits of all time would give speeds of 19 mph and 21 mph, respectively.

[ATK]

I'm tallking about mid-49 splits for the women and mid-44 splits for the women, which is about average for a American national team, if not slightly below average. The fastest splits of all time would give speeds of 19 mph and 21 mph, respectively.

curious if you can show me some states on this.

[jazzcyclist]

I'm tallking about mid-49 splits for the women and mid-44 splits for the women, which is about average for a American national team, if not slightly below average. The fastest splits of all time would give speeds of 19 mph and 21 mph, respectively.

curious if you can show me some states on this.

It's pretty straightforward math. To calculate the average speed in mph from a 400 time, divide 1440 by the time and multiply by 0.621:

(1440/time) x 0.621 = speed in mph.

Michael Johnson has split 42.91 and Marita Koch has split 47.70. You do the math.

[NotSoOrdinary]

You are right GH. I think the USA women's 4x400 should just concentrate on winning the Gold Medal first. The Russians are coming with much more talent than they brought in 2008. Go ahead and give the American women the Gold at your own peril. But I think it will be a hell of a final. It will surely take 3:16 or better to beat the Russians this year.

People have been saying this for the past 3 years #RIP

[NotSoOrdinary]

NotSoOrdinary:

Please refresh my memory. What happened with Trotter on the relay in Osaka?

She handed off I believe 4th or 5th...

[NotSoOrdinary]

I don't think we need to use any calculations or mathematics when it comes down to who's going to win the 4x400m. When was the last time the US lost a major 4x400?

But aside from that, Allyson and Sanya both turn into different runners dependent upon the circumstances. They can push themselves beyond what is expected, purely because they "don't want to let the team down."

Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.

[Peter Michaelson]

NotSoOrdinary:

The last time the US lost a major 4 x 400 was March 11, 2012.

[NotSoOrdinary]

NotSoOrdinary:

The last time the US lost a major 4 x 400 was March 11, 2012.

I expected a smart alec response like this. Of course, why don't we bring up indoors in a thread specifically talking about outdoors. Not only that, but a race where GB's best team barely beat a USA B-team. I literally could only name Sanya and Natasha on the US team, the other two are complete non-factors.

So let me ask again, more specifically this time:

When was the last time another country defeated a USA A-team (meaning a team that included both AF & SRR) in a major outdoor competition?

[jazzcyclist]

Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.

Allyson did not run the fastest split ever.

[NotSoOrdinary]

Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.

Allyson did not run the fastest split ever.

Sure she did. AF 48.0 > Flojo 48.1

For multiple reasons.

[jjimbojames]

AF still ran slower than others though - or do you mean fastest American split?

[NotSoOrdinary]

AF still ran slower than others though - or do you mean fastest American split?

American.

[DJG]

The "other relay" is my main concern, but let me say that
the Russian 4x4 teams I have watched over the years manage
to under-perform when it counts the most.
I expect they will run the fastest qualifying time in the prelims,
only to come in third or fourth in the final.
The US will win this easily...I would lead SRR off and follow with AF...
the other 2 legs will then run comfortably with a big lead that
will get bigger as the others go out too fast and finish too slow.

I also believe this drafting thing is more myth than real at these speeds (sorry Jazz, we
respectfully disagree again) and smart 400 runners pass on the straights and not the turns.
So this "extra distance" thing should not be a factor either.


The US women win by 25 m or more.

[EPelle]

Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.

Allyson did not run the fastest split ever.

Fastest world championships split. Ever.

[jazzcyclist]

I would lead SRR off and follow with AF...
the other 2 legs will then run comfortably with a big lead that
will get bigger as the others go out too fast and finish too slow.

I mentioned in an earlier post why I thought it was a bad idea to put Sanya on scratch leg instead of McCrory. I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.

I also believe this drafting thing is more myth than real at these speeds (sorry Jazz, we respectfully disagree again) and smart 400 runners pass on the straights and not the turns.

This is a science thing, not an opinion thing. Do you believe in physics?

So this "extra distance" thing should not be a factor either.

I believe gh was talking about the tendency of trailing runners to run on the shoulder of the leading runner through the turn, to the outside of lane one instead of up against the rail.

[iain]

The Russians didn't underperform in Beijing.
Pre Olympic Times:
2008
USA - 49.74, 49.83, 50.32, 50.80
RUS - 50.02, 50.12, 50.25, 50.51
2012
USA - 49.28, 50.02, 50.06, 50.50
RUS - 49.16, 49.28, 49.72, 50.00

USA = -0.83
RUS = -2.74

From 08 times:
USA - 3:17.71
RUS - 3:16.08

[gennady]

I don't think we need to use any calculations or mathematics when it comes down to who's going to win the 4x400m. When was the last time the US lost a major 4x400?

But aside from that, Allyson and Sanya both turn into different runners dependent upon the circumstances. They can push themselves beyond what is expected, purely because they "don't want to let the team down."

Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.

I have already said in one of the posts, Sanya and Allyson great athletes, fighters.
I am to them with great respect.
But look at the schedule for their participation in the Olympics.

Felix: 100heats; 24 hours; 100S/Fin; 48 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 24 hours 4х100heats; 24 hours; 4х100Fin; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

Ross: 400heats; 24 hours; 400S; 24 hours; 400Fin; 24 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 48 hours; 4х400heats?; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

They are great, but not "iron machines".
Require or rely on their high splits in the 4x400 is not correct and not real.

[DJG]

I would lead SRR off and follow with AF...
the other 2 legs will then run comfortably with a big lead that
will get bigger as the others go out too fast and finish too slow.

I think that's a bad idea for reason that I mentioned earlier.
I mentioned in an earlier post why I thought it was a bad idea to put Sanya on scratch leg instead of McCrory. I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.

I also believe this drafting thing is more myth than real at these speeds (sorry Jazz, we respectfully disagree again) and smart 400 runners pass on the straights and not the turns.

This is a science thing, not an opinion thing. Do you believe in physics?

So this "extra distance" thing should not be a factor either.

I believe gh was talking about the tendency of trailing runners to run on the shoulder of the leading runner through the turn, to the outside of lane one instead of up against the rail.

Sure physics is a fine thing...I recall reading that according to physics divers should not be capable of doing some of the moves in their dives that they do.
As for any infinitissimal positive effect a runner may get from basically running in the other runner's shorts, that is negated by the elbow to his mid-section that will shortly be delivered by any competent competitor.

As for the order of the relay, in this 4x4 it won't matter ...but where did you get the habit of
calling one leg the "scratch leg"? at a dog track somewhere?

[ATK]

Felix: 100heats; 24 hours; 100S/Fin; 48 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 24 hours 4х100heats; 24 hours; 4х100Fin; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

Ross: 400heats; 24 hours; 400S; 24 hours; 400Fin; 24 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 48 hours; 4х400heats?; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

They are great, but not "iron machines".
Require or rely on their high splits in the 4x400 is not correct and not real.

Neither Felix or SRR will run the heats of either relay.

[gennady]

Felix: "1"-100heats; 24 hours; "2&3"-100S/Fin; 48 hours; "4"-200heats; 24 hours; "5"-200S; 24 hours; "6"-200Fin; 24 hours 4х100heats; 24 hours; "7"-4х100Fin; 24 hours; "8"-4х400Fin;(8th start).

Ross: "1"-400heats; "2"-24 hours; 400S; 24 hours; "3"-400Fin; 24 hours; "4"-200heats; 24 hours; "5"-200S; 24 hours; "6"-200Fin; 48 hours; 4х400heats?; 24 hours; "7"-4х400Fin;(8th start).

They are great, but not "iron machines".
Require or rely on their high splits in the 4x400 is not correct and not real.

Neither Felix or SRR will run the heats of either relay.

Anyway, the final 4x4 is the 8 th and 7 th start, respectively.

[NotSoOrdinary]

I don't think we need to use any calculations or mathematics when it comes down to who's going to win the 4x400m. When was the last time the US lost a major 4x400?

But aside from that, Allyson and Sanya both turn into different runners dependent upon the circumstances. They can push themselves beyond what is expected, purely because they "don't want to let the team down."

Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.

I have already said in one of the posts, Sanya and Allyson great athletes, fighters.
I am to them with great respect.
But look at the schedule for their participation in the Olympics.

Felix: 100heats; 24 hours; 100S/Fin; 48 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 24 hours 4х100heats; 24 hours; 4х100Fin; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

Ross: 400heats; 24 hours; 400S; 24 hours; 400Fin; 24 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 48 hours; 4х400heats?; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

They are great, but not "iron machines".
Require or rely on their high splits in the 4x400 is not correct and not real.

I keep seeing this, "they're going to be too tired" argument, but I don't quite get it.

Firstly, Allyson isn't even guaranteed to make the 100m final.
Secondly her schedule last year was much more cruel with 3 rounds of the 400, and she still narrowly lost the silver in the 200m.

Thirdly, who's to say her and Sanya both won't be included in slow heats/semis? Allyson was in the least competitive heats last year in the 400.

Lastly, AF won't be struggling through the 200 heats, she's much faster than everyone else. 22.2 is nothing. She knows this race like the back of her hand.

There's no need to be worried about the 4x4.

[gennady]

The fact that Sanya and Allyson will be like a tigress, will fight to the last in the finals I did not cause the slightest doubt.
What they can do it better than anyone else in the world today, I know very well.
I'm just talking about that in this final we will not see these results.
_SB_ _Split __Dif
49,83 48,60 1,23 Beijing Allyson Felix
49,70 48,00 1,70 Osaka Allyson Felix
49,83 48,75 1,08 Berlin Allyson Felix
49,59 49,33 0,26 Daegu Allyson Felix
49,93 48,93 1,00 Beijing Sanya Richards-Ross
49,52 49,07 0,45 Osaka Sanya Richards-Ross
49,00 48,43 0,57 Berlin Sanya Richards-Ross
49,66 49,30 0,36 Daegu Sanya Richards-Ross

And for this reason that Russian girls will be winners.

[mump boy]

You could put in a US team without Sanya and Alyson and they would still win

It's not about individual speed (especially when run at RUS champs) USA are simply MUCH better really runners than anyone else

[gh]

yeah, you can crank all the numbers in the world, but they don't translate well in 4x4 racing.

[gennady]

You could put in a US team without Sanya and Alyson and they would still win

It's not about individual speed (especially when run at RUS champs) USA are simply MUCH better really runners than anyone else

In fact, the sport has always guided by results, not emotions.
Just this season, Russian girls are better than US in all the objective indicators.
You do not have any objective argument in the dispute.
For this reason, you still bring the same subjective argument: - "We have always been the best, and for this reason we will win.
I never doubted that the American "T & F" best in the world.
But I do not mix this general situation, the situation in one particular event in one particular season.
If you look objectively at your proposal to run at the Olympics without Alison and Sanya , in this part of:
Keshia Baker
Deedee Trotter
Francena Mccorory
Diamond Dixon
U.S. can count on the best possible results: 3:20,92 sec.
With this result, the U.S. team is just going to the 5th position after:

1.RUS 3:16,96
2.JAM 3:19,42
3.BLR 3:20,17
4.NGR 3:20,63
5.USA 3:20,92
6.GBR 3:23,24
7.UKR 3:25,01
8.FRA 3:25,75

[mump boy]

You could put in a US team without Sanya and Alyson and they would still win

It's not about individual speed (especially when run at RUS champs) USA are simply MUCH better really runners than anyone else

In fact, the sport has always guided by results, not emotions.
Just this season, Russian girls are better than US in all the objective indicators.
You do not have any objective argument in the dispute.
For this reason, you still bring the same subjective argument: - "We have always been the best, and for this reason we will win.
I never doubted that the American "T & F" best in the world.
But I do not mix this general situation, the situation in one particular event in one particular season.
If you look objectively at your proposal to run at the Olympics without Alison and Sanya , in this part of:
Keshia Baker
Deedee Trotter
Francena Mccorory
Diamond Dixon
U.S. can count on the best possible results: 3:20,92 sec.
With this result, the U.S. team is just going to the 5th position after:

1.RUS 3:16,96
2.JAM 3:19,42
3.BLR 3:20,17
4.NGR 3:20,63
5.USA 3:20,92
6.GBR 3:23,24
7.UKR 3:25,01
8.FRA 3:25,75

Where on earth have you got BLR and NGR running 3.20 ?!!

NGR are going to run faster than they did with Ogunkoya, Yusuf and Opara despite having no one who's broken 51 this year ?!! and BLR are going to run even faster, beat US who have 3 runners faster than BLR No1 and beat UK by over 3 seconds despite UK top 4 runners being .6 faster on times this year

if this is what 'objectivity' gets you i'll stick with actually knowing about stuff, thanks

[NotSoOrdinary]

You could put in a US team without Sanya and Alyson and they would still win

I can't see the future so I won't comment on how well this would go over this year, but in 2008 we would've lost without the both of them. 2009, though

[Gabriella]

I don't think mump was being literal, more that the US women lift themselves for the relay, they have a team spirit and desire to raise their game and they run good races. The Russians, on the other hand, flatter to deceive and just never seem to have that same fire.

Gennady I can see what you're saying; on this seasons times, it does look like Russia are the favourites. But the last time they beat the USA in a relay 'fair and square' i.e no DQ or dropped baton, was in 1999. Beijing was very close and we could blame Kapachinskaya's lack of killer instinct for the failure, but no matter how many sub 50 runners they have or where they are on teh world lists they never raise their game the same way the Americans do and their running order is always wrong.