Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final


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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby gh » Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:50 pm

while it can be handy to have somebody act as a bit of a wind break for you, I've never really bought into the theory that drafting would have any significant effect (or even work) at such slow speeds.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby ATK » Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:52 pm

gh wrote:while it can be handy to have somebody act as a bit of a wind break for you, I've never really bought into the theory that drafting would have any significant effect (or even work) at such slow speeds.

Even so, I doubt it comes close to outweighing the extra distance run.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby j-a-m » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:09 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Yeah, but the extra distance run on the curves is outweighed by the benefits of drafting for the entire lap.

What about the rabbit / pace setter effect?
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby gh » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:14 pm

totally different concept on a 400 relay leg than in distance running.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:55 pm

gh wrote:while it can be handy to have somebody act as a bit of a wind break for you, I've never really bought into the theory that drafting would have any significant effect (or even work) at such slow speeds.

You're mistaken. At 18 mph for women and 20 mph for men, there is absolutely a measurable draft benefit.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby ATK » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:01 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
gh wrote:while it can be handy to have somebody act as a bit of a wind break for you, I've never really bought into the theory that drafting would have any significant effect (or even work) at such slow speeds.

You're mistaken. At 18 mph for women and 20 mph for men, there is absolutely a measurable draft benefit.

Your talking about the fastest athletes ever running at those speeds. If im correct, most of these athletes don't go that fast in the 400m.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby Peter Michaelson » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:04 pm

NotSoOrdinary:

Please refresh my memory. What happened with Trotter on the relay in Osaka?

aaronk:

Am I missing something? The first split is from the gun to the 800 start line. The second split is from the 800 start line to the finish line. The third and fourth splits are finish line to finish line. As long as you can see the 800 start line (which is the 1 turn stagger line) you should not have a problem.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:18 pm

ATK wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
gh wrote:while it can be handy to have somebody act as a bit of a wind break for you, I've never really bought into the theory that drafting would have any significant effect (or even work) at such slow speeds.

You're mistaken. At 18 mph for women and 20 mph for men, there is absolutely a measurable draft benefit.

Your talking about the fastest athletes ever running at those speeds. If im correct, most of these athletes don't go that fast in the 400m.

I'm tallking about mid-49 splits for the women and mid-44 splits for the women, which is about average for a American national team, if not slightly below average. The fastest splits of all time would give speeds of 19 mph and 21 mph, respectively.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby ATK » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:27 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:I'm tallking about mid-49 splits for the women and mid-44 splits for the women, which is about average for a American national team, if not slightly below average. The fastest splits of all time would give speeds of 19 mph and 21 mph, respectively.

curious if you can show me some states on this.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:29 pm

ATK wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I'm tallking about mid-49 splits for the women and mid-44 splits for the women, which is about average for a American national team, if not slightly below average. The fastest splits of all time would give speeds of 19 mph and 21 mph, respectively.

curious if you can show me some states on this.

It's pretty straightforward math. To calculate the average speed in mph from a 400 time, divide 1440 by the time and multiply by 0.621:

(1440/time) x 0.621 = speed in mph.

Michael Johnson has split 42.91 and Marita Koch has split 47.70. You do the math.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby NotSoOrdinary » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:14 am

Runnerz76 wrote:You are right GH. I think the USA women's 4x400 should just concentrate on winning the Gold Medal first. The Russians are coming with much more talent than they brought in 2008. Go ahead and give the American women the Gold at your own peril. But I think it will be a hell of a final. It will surely take 3:16 or better to beat the Russians this year.


People have been saying this for the past 3 years #RIP
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby NotSoOrdinary » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:24 am

Peter Michaelson wrote:NotSoOrdinary:

Please refresh my memory. What happened with Trotter on the relay in Osaka?


She handed off I believe 4th or 5th...
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby NotSoOrdinary » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:28 am

I don't think we need to use any calculations or mathematics when it comes down to who's going to win the 4x400m. When was the last time the US lost a major 4x400?

But aside from that, Allyson and Sanya both turn into different runners dependent upon the circumstances. They can push themselves beyond what is expected, purely because they "don't want to let the team down."

Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby Peter Michaelson » Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:09 am

NotSoOrdinary:

The last time the US lost a major 4 x 400 was March 11, 2012.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby NotSoOrdinary » Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:13 am

Peter Michaelson wrote:NotSoOrdinary:

The last time the US lost a major 4 x 400 was March 11, 2012.


I expected a smart alec response like this. Of course, why don't we bring up indoors in a thread specifically talking about outdoors. Not only that, but a race where GB's best team barely beat a USA B-team. I literally could only name Sanya and Natasha on the US team, the other two are complete non-factors.

So let me ask again, more specifically this time:

When was the last time another country defeated a USA A-team (meaning a team that included both AF & SRR) in a major outdoor competition?
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:20 am

NotSoOrdinary wrote:Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.

Allyson did not run the fastest split ever.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby NotSoOrdinary » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:04 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
NotSoOrdinary wrote:Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.

Allyson did not run the fastest split ever.


Sure she did. AF 48.0 > Flojo 48.1

For multiple reasons.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby jjimbojames » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:12 am

AF still ran slower than others though - or do you mean fastest American split?
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby NotSoOrdinary » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:56 am

jjimbojames wrote:AF still ran slower than others though - or do you mean fastest American split?


American.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby DJG » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:35 am

The "other relay" is my main concern, but let me say that
the Russian 4x4 teams I have watched over the years manage
to under-perform when it counts the most.
I expect they will run the fastest qualifying time in the prelims,
only to come in third or fourth in the final.
The US will win this easily...I would lead SRR off and follow with AF...
the other 2 legs will then run comfortably with a big lead that
will get bigger as the others go out too fast and finish too slow.

I also believe this drafting thing is more myth than real at these speeds (sorry Jazz, we
respectfully disagree again) and smart 400 runners pass on the straights and not the turns.
So this "extra distance" thing should not be a factor either.


The US women win by 25 m or more.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby EPelle » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:41 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
NotSoOrdinary wrote:Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.

Allyson did not run the fastest split ever.

Fastest world championships split. Ever.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:59 am

DJG wrote:I would lead SRR off and follow with AF...
the other 2 legs will then run comfortably with a big lead that
will get bigger as the others go out too fast and finish too slow.

I mentioned in an earlier post why I thought it was a bad idea to put Sanya on scratch leg instead of McCrory. I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.
DJG wrote:I also believe this drafting thing is more myth than real at these speeds (sorry Jazz, we respectfully disagree again) and smart 400 runners pass on the straights and not the turns.

This is a science thing, not an opinion thing. Do you believe in physics?
DJG wrote: So this "extra distance" thing should not be a factor either.

I believe gh was talking about the tendency of trailing runners to run on the shoulder of the leading runner through the turn, to the outside of lane one instead of up against the rail.
Last edited by jazzcyclist on Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby iain » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:13 am

The Russians didn't underperform in Beijing.
Pre Olympic Times:
2008
USA - 49.74, 49.83, 50.32, 50.80
RUS - 50.02, 50.12, 50.25, 50.51
2012
USA - 49.28, 50.02, 50.06, 50.50
RUS - 49.16, 49.28, 49.72, 50.00

USA = -0.83
RUS = -2.74

From 08 times:
USA - 3:17.71
RUS - 3:16.08
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby gennady » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:49 am

NotSoOrdinary wrote:I don't think we need to use any calculations or mathematics when it comes down to who's going to win the 4x400m. When was the last time the US lost a major 4x400?

But aside from that, Allyson and Sanya both turn into different runners dependent upon the circumstances. They can push themselves beyond what is expected, purely because they "don't want to let the team down."

Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.

I have already said in one of the posts, Sanya and Allyson great athletes, fighters.
I am to them with great respect.
But look at the schedule for their participation in the Olympics.

Felix: 100heats; 24 hours; 100S/Fin; 48 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 24 hours 4х100heats; 24 hours; 4х100Fin; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

Ross: 400heats; 24 hours; 400S; 24 hours; 400Fin; 24 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 48 hours; 4х400heats?; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

They are great, but not "iron machines".
Require or rely on their high splits in the 4x400 is not correct and not real.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby DJG » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:19 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
DJG wrote:I would lead SRR off and follow with AF...
the other 2 legs will then run comfortably with a big lead that
will get bigger as the others go out too fast and finish too slow.

I think that's a bad idea for reason that I mentioned earlier.
I mentioned in an earlier post why I thought it was a bad idea to put Sanya on scratch leg instead of McCrory. I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.
DJG wrote:I also believe this drafting thing is more myth than real at these speeds (sorry Jazz, we respectfully disagree again) and smart 400 runners pass on the straights and not the turns.

This is a science thing, not an opinion thing. Do you believe in physics?
DJG wrote: So this "extra distance" thing should not be a factor either.

I believe gh was talking about the tendency of trailing runners to run on the shoulder of the leading runner through the turn, to the outside of lane one instead of up against the rail.


Sure physics is a fine thing...I recall reading that according to physics divers should not be capable of doing some of the moves in their dives that they do.
As for any infinitissimal positive effect a runner may get from basically running in the other runner's shorts, that is negated by the elbow to his mid-section that will shortly be delivered by any competent competitor.

As for the order of the relay, in this 4x4 it won't matter ...but where did you get the habit of
calling one leg the "scratch leg"? at a dog track somewhere?
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby ATK » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:19 am

gennady wrote:Felix: 100heats; 24 hours; 100S/Fin; 48 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 24 hours 4х100heats; 24 hours; 4х100Fin; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

Ross: 400heats; 24 hours; 400S; 24 hours; 400Fin; 24 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 48 hours; 4х400heats?; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

They are great, but not "iron machines".
Require or rely on their high splits in the 4x400 is not correct and not real.

Neither Felix or SRR will run the heats of either relay.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby gennady » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:36 am

ATK wrote:
gennady wrote:Felix: "1"-100heats; 24 hours; "2&3"-100S/Fin; 48 hours; "4"-200heats; 24 hours; "5"-200S; 24 hours; "6"-200Fin; 24 hours 4х100heats; 24 hours; "7"-4х100Fin; 24 hours; "8"-4х400Fin;(8th start).

Ross: "1"-400heats; "2"-24 hours; 400S; 24 hours; "3"-400Fin; 24 hours; "4"-200heats; 24 hours; "5"-200S; 24 hours; "6"-200Fin; 48 hours; 4х400heats?; 24 hours; "7"-4х400Fin;(8th start).

They are great, but not "iron machines".
Require or rely on their high splits in the 4x400 is not correct and not real.

Neither Felix or SRR will run the heats of either relay.

Anyway, the final 4x4 is the 8 th and 7 th start, respectively.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby NotSoOrdinary » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:29 pm

gennady wrote:
NotSoOrdinary wrote:I don't think we need to use any calculations or mathematics when it comes down to who's going to win the 4x400m. When was the last time the US lost a major 4x400?

But aside from that, Allyson and Sanya both turn into different runners dependent upon the circumstances. They can push themselves beyond what is expected, purely because they "don't want to let the team down."

Allyson had never been on a major 4x400 relay until 2007 and when she saw how behind the US was she simply closed the gap and in the process ran the fastest split ever. Sanya is the same way. They won't let the US lose.

I have already said in one of the posts, Sanya and Allyson great athletes, fighters.
I am to them with great respect.
But look at the schedule for their participation in the Olympics.

Felix: 100heats; 24 hours; 100S/Fin; 48 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 24 hours 4х100heats; 24 hours; 4х100Fin; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

Ross: 400heats; 24 hours; 400S; 24 hours; 400Fin; 24 hours; 200heats; 24 hours; 200S; 24 hours; 200Fin; 48 hours; 4х400heats?; 24 hours; 4х400Fin;(8th start).

They are great, but not "iron machines".
Require or rely on their high splits in the 4x400 is not correct and not real.


I keep seeing this, "they're going to be too tired" argument, but I don't quite get it.

Firstly, Allyson isn't even guaranteed to make the 100m final.
Secondly her schedule last year was much more cruel with 3 rounds of the 400, and she still narrowly lost the silver in the 200m.

Thirdly, who's to say her and Sanya both won't be included in slow heats/semis? :lol: Allyson was in the least competitive heats last year in the 400.

Lastly, AF won't be struggling through the 200 heats, she's much faster than everyone else. 22.2 is nothing. She knows this race like the back of her hand.

There's no need to be worried about the 4x4.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby gennady » Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:03 pm

The fact that Sanya and Allyson will be like a tigress, will fight to the last in the finals I did not cause the slightest doubt.
What they can do it better than anyone else in the world today, I know very well.
I'm just talking about that in this final we will not see these results.
_SB_ _Split __Dif
49,83 48,60 1,23 Beijing Allyson Felix
49,70 48,00 1,70 Osaka Allyson Felix
49,83 48,75 1,08 Berlin Allyson Felix
49,59 49,33 0,26 Daegu Allyson Felix
49,93 48,93 1,00 Beijing Sanya Richards-Ross
49,52 49,07 0,45 Osaka Sanya Richards-Ross
49,00 48,43 0,57 Berlin Sanya Richards-Ross
49,66 49,30 0,36 Daegu Sanya Richards-Ross

And for this reason that Russian girls will be winners. :D
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby mump boy » Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:11 pm

You could put in a US team without Sanya and Alyson and they would still win

It's not about individual speed (especially when run at RUS champs) USA are simply MUCH better really runners than anyone else
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby gh » Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:31 pm

yeah, you can crank all the numbers in the world, but they don't translate well in 4x4 racing.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby gennady » Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:46 pm

mump boy wrote:You could put in a US team without Sanya and Alyson and they would still win

It's not about individual speed (especially when run at RUS champs) USA are simply MUCH better really runners than anyone else

In fact, the sport has always guided by results, not emotions.
Just this season, Russian girls are better than US in all the objective indicators.
You do not have any objective argument in the dispute.
For this reason, you still bring the same subjective argument: - "We have always been the best, and for this reason we will win.
I never doubted that the American "T & F" best in the world.
But I do not mix this general situation, the situation in one particular event in one particular season.
If you look objectively at your proposal to run at the Olympics without Alison and Sanya :shock: , in this part of:
Keshia Baker
Deedee Trotter
Francena Mccorory
Diamond Dixon
U.S. can count on the best possible results: 3:20,92 sec.
With this result, the U.S. team is just going to the 5th position after:

1.RUS 3:16,96
2.JAM 3:19,42
3.BLR 3:20,17
4.NGR 3:20,63
5.USA 3:20,92 :lol:
6.GBR 3:23,24
7.UKR 3:25,01
8.FRA 3:25,75
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby mump boy » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:27 pm

gennady wrote:
mump boy wrote:You could put in a US team without Sanya and Alyson and they would still win

It's not about individual speed (especially when run at RUS champs) USA are simply MUCH better really runners than anyone else

In fact, the sport has always guided by results, not emotions.
Just this season, Russian girls are better than US in all the objective indicators.
You do not have any objective argument in the dispute.
For this reason, you still bring the same subjective argument: - "We have always been the best, and for this reason we will win.
I never doubted that the American "T & F" best in the world.
But I do not mix this general situation, the situation in one particular event in one particular season.
If you look objectively at your proposal to run at the Olympics without Alison and Sanya :shock: , in this part of:
Keshia Baker
Deedee Trotter
Francena Mccorory
Diamond Dixon
U.S. can count on the best possible results: 3:20,92 sec.
With this result, the U.S. team is just going to the 5th position after:

1.RUS 3:16,96
2.JAM 3:19,42
3.BLR 3:20,17
4.NGR 3:20,63
5.USA 3:20,92 :lol:
6.GBR 3:23,24
7.UKR 3:25,01
8.FRA 3:25,75


Where on earth have you got BLR and NGR running 3.20 ?!!

NGR are going to run faster than they did with Ogunkoya, Yusuf and Opara despite having no one who's broken 51 this year ?!! and BLR are going to run even faster, beat US who have 3 runners faster than BLR No1 and beat UK by over 3 seconds despite UK top 4 runners being .6 faster on times this year :?

if this is what 'objectivity' gets you i'll stick with actually knowing about stuff, thanks
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby NotSoOrdinary » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:42 pm

mump boy wrote:You could put in a US team without Sanya and Alyson and they would still win


I can't see the future so I won't comment on how well this would go over this year, but in 2008 we would've lost without the both of them. 2009, though :D
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby Gabriella » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:14 am

I don't think mump was being literal, more that the US women lift themselves for the relay, they have a team spirit and desire to raise their game and they run good races. The Russians, on the other hand, flatter to deceive and just never seem to have that same fire.

Gennady I can see what you're saying; on this seasons times, it does look like Russia are the favourites. But the last time they beat the USA in a relay 'fair and square' i.e no DQ or dropped baton, was in 1999. Beijing was very close and we could blame Kapachinskaya's lack of killer instinct for the failure, but no matter how many sub 50 runners they have or where they are on teh world lists they never raise their game the same way the Americans do and their running order is always wrong.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby tgs3 » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:41 am

Gabriella wrote:Gennady I can see what you're saying; on this seasons times, it does look like Russia are the favourites. But the last time they beat the USA in a relay 'fair and square' i.e no DQ or dropped baton, was in 1999. Beijing was very close and we could blame Kapachinskaya's lack of killer instinct for the failure, but no matter how many sub 50 runners they have or where they are on teh world lists they never raise their game the same way the Americans do and their running order is always wrong.


It's not really season times we're talking about for the Russians. All their great times are based on what they did at the Russian Olympic trials. Take out those times, and the Russians are about 3 seconds slower as a team. Maybe they can replicate those times in London, but I think most of us are skeptical of that. Their times the rest of the year aren't much better than the USA without Richards-Ross (and Felix).
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby EPelle » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:58 am

gennady wrote:Just this season, Russian girls are better than US in all the objective indicators. You do not have any objective argument in the dispute.

All the objective indicators? How fast are the Russians in the 4x4 this season? Have their top women competed in a 4x4? The US is leading the world. At least two of the four women on their world-leading team are competing on the Olympic 4x4 team as well. The objective relay indicators don't appear to validate your claim or invalidate the argument made in the case for the USA.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby Runnerz76 » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:34 am

I started the original post over a week ago because I couldn't pick the winner of the women's 4x400m. I was going back and forth and I could not seperate the USA and Russian 4x400 teams because they were that close. The Russians clearly have a faster overall time from their four relay members. So, I wanted to know what people thought about putting Demus on the relay in place of an unreliable Trotter. I have come to the conclusion that the USA team has three reliable legs (AF, SRR, McCorory), and the Russians have two reliable legs (Gushchina, Firova). Trotter has shown a tendency in the past to weaken late in the season, and the two Russian runners Krivoshapka and Nazarova usually run about seven tenths of a second slower outside of Russia.
IMO all of you are partially correct, and your theories are very interesting. But this really comes down to two issues once you determine that the USA has three reliabkle legs and the Russians only have two.
The first issue has to do with the Russian running order. In the past, they have put Gushchina first leg because of her 200 speed and her ability to get out fast. And they usually have the winner of the Russian Olympic Trials as their anchor runner. This killed them in 2008 because Kapachinskaya looked like a deer in headlights during the last 150 meters of the 2008 Olympic Final. You could see terror in her eyes as she waited for the American to pass her. You can't have that mentality as the anchor leg of your relay. You need a killer who will close the door on anyone thinking about passing you during the final leg. Firova ran a nice leg for the Russians in Beijing, and always runs well at the end of the season for them. The Russians need to move Krivoshapka to 1st leg. The unreliable Nazarova should go 2nd, followed by Firova 3rd, and Gushchina anchor. This way the Russians will likely have a lead after the first leg, and they will have their two most reliable runners running 3rd and 4th legs for them. You always want a killer as your anchor instead of a filler. And I think Gushchina is that person.
For the USA, they will likely lead off with McCorory, with Felix on 2nd leg, and SRR 4th leg. They will need to decide whether to put Demus on 3rd leg instead of Trotter. And a lot of this will be determined when we see Demus in the 400 meter hurdles final. And the USA coaches will also get to use Trotter in the 4x400 prelim, and let her show them that she belongs in the final. This will be a hell of a 4x400 meter relay Final on the women's side. On paper the Russians have a slight edge. But on the track the Americans have the slight edge.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby Peter Michaelson » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:47 am

Interesting web site here:

http://runningwritings.blogspot.com/

Scroll down to July 18 for discussion on physics of drafting vs. front-running.
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Re: Should Demus be in 4x400 Relay Final

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:34 am

Peter Michaelson wrote:Interesting web site here:

http://runningwritings.blogspot.com/

Scroll down to July 18 for discussion on physics of drafting vs. front-running.

What's interesting about the article you linked is that it only deals with the draft benefit at middle distance speeds. As we all know, as wind speed increases, wind drag increases exponentially, which means that the draft benefits at 400 speeds are much greater than the draft benefits at middle distance speeds. Here are the links to a couple of other articles on the subject. Warning, the second is very tedious.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1331759/

http://www.elitetrack.com/article_files ... inting.pdf

Even if you don't want to take the time to read these articles, think of it intuitively. We all know that in the 100-meter dash, a variation of the windspeed by as little as 0.2 m/s willl measurably affect a sprinter's time by 0.01 s, which when extrapolated to 400 meters would be 0.04 s. In order to believe that there is no draft benefit in elite 4x400 relays, you have to also believe that having someone running one meter in front of you at 9 m/s (8 m/s for women), give less of a benefit than a 0.2 m/s tailwind.
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