About That London US Women's 4x100


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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby guru » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:26 am

noxeht12 wrote:Think the same line up sticks from Penns?

Madison - Felix - BK - Jeter



Knight? May I gently remind you of the results of the Jamaican 100m Olympic Trials


1 Fraser-Pryce, Shelly-Ann Unattached 10.70 0.6
2 Campbell-Brown, Veronica Unattached 10.82 0.6
3 Stewart, Kerron Unattached 10.94 0.6
4 Simpson, Sherone Mvp Track Club 11.01 0.6


If the US has an 11.14 in the lineup, they lose. It's just that simple.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby noxeht12 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:53 am

guru wrote:
noxeht12 wrote:Think the same line up sticks from Penns?

Madison - Felix - BK - Jeter



Knight? May I gently remind you of the results of the Jamaican 100m Olympic Trials


1 Fraser-Pryce, Shelly-Ann Unattached 10.70 0.6
2 Campbell-Brown, Veronica Unattached 10.82 0.6
3 Stewart, Kerron Unattached 10.94 0.6
4 Simpson, Sherone Mvp Track Club 11.01 0.6


If the US has an 11.14 in the lineup, they lose. It's just that simple.


Good enough baton passes and great synergy can do wonders... As great as JA's footspeed is they can go very wrong if the legs aren't distributed to their optimum ability and it depends A LOT right now IMHO in Kerron getting back to 100%.

SAFP - SS - VCB - KS should be that line up... Good practice and excellent passes and they are as good as golden. Anything else and less than good passes and the US will win if they can replicate the Penns performance.

Madison - Felix - BK - Jeter has the passes right and seem to work well together. Adding Tarmoh in the mix could offset the balance and you also have to think that LW is in that pool (not the most lucky athlete where relays are concerned).
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby guru » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:59 am

noxeht12 wrote:...you also have to think that LW is in that pool (not the most lucky athlete where relays are concerned).



I am literally stunned Williams was named to the pool over Kimberlyn Duncan(eligible via her 4th place in 200)


My final pool would be Jeter, Madison, Felix, Tarmoh, Duncan, Knight
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby noxeht12 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:09 am

guru wrote:
noxeht12 wrote:...you also have to think that LW is in that pool (not the most lucky athlete where relays are concerned).



I am literally stunned Williams was named to the pool over Kimberlyn Duncan(eligible via her 4th place in 200)


My final pool would be Jeter, Madison, Felix, Tarmoh, Duncan, Knight


I'm equally stunned... not only does she have a sub-11 clocking THIS SEASON she also have a 22.1x... She could have at least been useful in the first round...

Heats: Madison - BK - Tarmoh - Duncan
Finals: Madison - Felix - Tarmoh - Jeter

Although now it will likely be:

Heats: Williams - Tarmoh - BK - Madison
Finals: Madison - Felix - BK - Jeter
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby guru » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:14 am

noxeht12 wrote:
I'm equally stunned... not only does she have a sub-11 clocking THIS SEASON she also have a 22.1x...



In light of Duncan's exclusion, it makes me wonder if Richards-Ross, who is undeniably one of the US's four fastest 100 runners on the overall roster, will wind up among the actual six who compete. If so there's not much doubt she'd be in the finals only
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby noxeht12 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:36 am

guru wrote:
noxeht12 wrote:
I'm equally stunned... not only does she have a sub-11 clocking THIS SEASON she also have a 22.1x...



In light of Duncan's exclusion, it makes me wonder if Richards-Ross, who is undeniably one of the US's four fastest 100 runners on the overall roster, will wind up among the actual six who compete. If so there's not much doubt she'd be in the finals only


Only way that works is if Felix, Jeter or SRR herself runs in the heats of the 4x100... remember only two substitution are allowed for the finals.

The workload is a bit heavy already for those ladies
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby guru » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:48 am

Good point, especially if they all make the 200 final
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby noxeht12 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:51 am

guru wrote:Good point, especially if they all make the 200 final

So we're potentially looking at....

Jeter
3 rounds of 100
3 rounds of 200
2 rounds of 4x100 (she's the best choice for running the rounds I'd think)

SRR
3 rounds of 400
3 rounds of 200
1 round of 4x100
1 round of 4x400

Felix
3rounds of 100
3 rounds of 200
1 round of 4x100
1 round of 4x400
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:25 am

guru wrote:If the US has an 11.14 in the lineup, they lose. It's just that simple.


No it's not. I have no opinion on Knight, but it's not as simple as comparing the sum of the SB's or PR's. Amateurs talk footspeed, but pros talk baton skills. For example, if you put Usain Bolt on the second leg, you're giving away 0.3s of his footspeed before the race even starts.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby guru » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:17 am

And what would lead you to believe the jamaicans will have inferior baton skills?
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby guru » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:31 am

Putting Knight in the lineup, and using SEASON bests, not comparing Trials results(which would be unfair to the US), here's how it breaks down with Knight in the lineup, with likely orders for both. It's not pretty.


Leadoff - Madison 10.96; Simpson 11.01

2nd - Felix 10.92; Stewart 10.94

3rd - Knight 11.14; Campbell-Brown 10.82

Anchor - Jeter 10.81; Fraser-Pryce 10.70


Any questions?
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:32 am

guru wrote:And what would lead you to believe the jamaicans will have inferior baton skills?

There's nothing in recent history to suggest that they will have superior baton skills. Last year they brought 43.58s-footspeed (based on SB's) to Daegu and only managed to run 41.70. That's below average IMO.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:35 am

guru wrote:Any questions?

Where do you make allowances for each runners baton skills? I don't have that information, but presumably Jon Drummond has seen enough to be able assess each runner's strength in this area.

Having said this, I would question why Knight ran the scratch leg last year if her baton skills are so good. The scratch leg is where I would hide the person with great footspeed but inferior baton skills. If Knight is that good with the stick, she should be in the middle of the lineup.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby noxeht12 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:48 am

guru wrote:Putting Knight in the lineup, and using SEASON bests, not comparing Trials results(which would be unfair to the US), here's how it breaks down with Knight in the lineup, with likely orders for both. It's not pretty.


Leadoff - Madison 10.96; Simpson 11.01

2nd - Felix 10.92; Stewart 10.94

3rd - Knight 11.14; Campbell-Brown 10.82

Anchor - Jeter 10.81; Fraser-Pryce 10.70


Any questions?


That line-up (for JA at least) is all wrong...
Lead-off - SAFP 10.70; Madison 10.96
2nd - Simpson 11.01; Felix 10.92
3rd - VCB 10.82; BK 11.14
Anchor - Kerron 10.94; Jeter 10.81

This plays on each of their strengths:
SAFP and Madison are great starters/curve runners.
Simpsons 400m strength showed in her stretch run in the 200, she is the only person I have seen run down and pass VCB like that. She also runs great backstretches. Felix is a known entity there.
VCB best curve runner (maybe ever) and BK is a great curve runner too,
Kerron and Jeter are top end queens when they are firing a full cylinders
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby reggaemon » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:19 am

I think Jamaica need to neutralise Allyson Felix on that 2nd leg..My 4x 100 would be Sherone to SAF to VCB and then Kerron Stewart..I think although Sherone isn't what she used to be, I can't see the USA first leg runner blowing her away, SAF would be effective on that back stretch against AF, VCB would blow away their 3rd leg runner and I don't Jeter atthis point in time have much on Kerron Stewart to reel her in... I see Madison starting for the USA to AF, maybe Bianca Knight because of her experience as a good curve runner and the to Jeter...guys what you think about that matchup?
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby Pego » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:34 am

As much as I like Lauryn Williams, to take her instead of Kim Duncan seems incomprehensible.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby noxeht12 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:10 am

reggaemon wrote:I think Jamaica need to neutralise Allyson Felix on that 2nd leg..My 4x 100 would be Sherone to SAF to VCB and then Kerron Stewart..I think although Sherone isn't what she used to be, I can't see the USA first leg runner blowing her away, SAF would be effective on that back stretch against AF, VCB would blow away their 3rd leg runner and I don't Jeter atthis point in time have much on Kerron Stewart to reel her in... I see Madison starting for the USA to AF, maybe Bianca Knight because of her experience as a good curve runner and the to Jeter...guys what you think about that matchup?


Sherone can't run the curve and is a horrible starter on the curve as well while Madison is a GREAT starter and a SUPERB curve runner (she decimated SS on that leg at Penns). That would therefore leave VCB/KS/SAFP to start.

VCB needs to be stuck on 3rd...

KS is arguably a worse curve runner than Sherone and simply has not run enough 200's lately to be any sort of notable mention where that is concerned.

SAFP is an excellent starter and one of the best female curve runners of all time bar none.

The race can be lost from 1st leg, 2nd leg, 3rd leg or 4th... I don't think the concern needs to be 'neutralizing' anyone but running the best team in the positions that most suit their strengths.

SAFP/Madison = Starters
SS/Felix = Backstretch (check SS's runs in at trials especially the 200 finals and the way she handled Marion Jones in 2008)
VCB/BK = 3rd leg is perfect for them
Jeter/KS = anchors
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby ATK » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:16 am

I'm almost certain that VCB will always run anchor for Jamaica, so you could work the team around that.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby noxeht12 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:26 am

ATK wrote:I'm almost certain that VCB will always run anchor for Jamaica, so you could work the team around that.


If Coach Wilson has his way (which I hope he does) egos will definitely not come into play this time around and he'll stick her on 3rd seeing that the other women are showing some form. This is not 2011 where everyone except her and to a lesser extent SAFP were showing much form. Nor should this turn out like 2009 where they choose not to give her practice on 3rd.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby Z89 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:18 am

I concur with several people who think that Kimberlyn Duncan's omission is a travesty. Incomprehensible! She had the 3rd fastest 100 time this year for an American, and it wasn't a fluke performance, either. She has run in the 11.0-range many other times this year in college. She came in 4th in the 200 among an extremely strong women's 200 pool. She ran more 4x100 relays this year as part of LSU's track team (and ran some 4x200's) than any other female American athlete. I would have taken her just for her relay experience and baton passing skills. Plus she is consistently faster than Knight or Williams.

The women's 4x100 team selection makes me think that there is some hard-and-fast rule that says "though shalt take the top six 100m places at the US Olympic Trials, period." Are there any written rules regarding team selection, or do they allow for human judgement? In this case, it appears some written rule was followed, rather than sound judgement.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby ATK » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:27 pm

noxeht12 wrote:
ATK wrote:I'm almost certain that VCB will always run anchor for Jamaica, so you could work the team around that.


If Coach Wilson has his way (which I hope he does) egos will definitely not come into play this time around and he'll stick her on 3rd seeing that the other women are showing some form. This is not 2011 where everyone except her and to a lesser extent SAFP were showing much form. Nor should this turn out like 2009 where they choose not to give her practice on 3rd.

2004,2005,2007,2008, 2011 she ran anchor.

She is running anchor in London.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby ATK » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:30 pm

Z89 wrote:I would have taken her just for her relay experience and baton passing skills.

I agree, even if they didn't use her in London at all, she looks to be the future of the sprints, and with some one like Lauren Williams already declining, and this probably being Jeter's first and only Olympics, she could have gained experience for what she almost certainly will be doing for the next 8 years or so.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby noxeht12 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:52 pm

ATK wrote:
noxeht12 wrote:
ATK wrote:I'm almost certain that VCB will always run anchor for Jamaica, so you could work the team around that.


If Coach Wilson has his way (which I hope he does) egos will definitely not come into play this time around and he'll stick her on 3rd seeing that the other women are showing some form. This is not 2011 where everyone except her and to a lesser extent SAFP were showing much form. Nor should this turn out like 2009 where they choose not to give her practice on 3rd.

2004,2005,2007,2008, 2011 she ran anchor.

She is running anchor in London.

All the years you cited she was the best choice for anchor thinking of the team we had and who we were up against.... It's different now... and I hope the powers that be sees that. If they want to win... relegate her to 3rd leg.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby ATK » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:55 pm

noxeht12 wrote:
ATK wrote:
noxeht12 wrote:
ATK wrote:I'm almost certain that VCB will always run anchor for Jamaica, so you could work the team around that.


If Coach Wilson has his way (which I hope he does) egos will definitely not come into play this time around and he'll stick her on 3rd seeing that the other women are showing some form. This is not 2011 where everyone except her and to a lesser extent SAFP were showing much form. Nor should this turn out like 2009 where they choose not to give her practice on 3rd.

2004,2005,2007,2008, 2011 she ran anchor.

She is running anchor in London.

All the years you cited she was the best choice for anchor thinking of the team we had and who we were up against.... It's different now... and I hope the powers that be sees that. If they want to win... relegate her to 3rd leg.

2008-2011 jamaica has pretty much had the same team.
They ran a national record last year, with a sub par leg from SS. I would like to see VCB on the curve, but Im 99% sure she will run anchor.
In 2009 didn't she not run the relay because they wanted her to run the curve but she said she will only run anchor?...
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby gh » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:56 pm

I could swear this thread is titled US 4x1.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby ATK » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:03 pm

gh wrote:I could swear this thread is titled US 4x1.

Considering it wouldn't make sense to create a thread for every country's relay team, I also think the conversation here is relevant to the US ladies. Since the Jamaican 4x1 is the closest competition, it seems as if the discussion sprouted from how can the US match up with the Jamaican ladies.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:06 pm

Z89 wrote:The women's 4x100 team selection makes me think that there is some hard-and-fast rule that says "though shalt take the top six 100m places at the US Olympic Trials, period." Are there any written rules regarding team selection, or do they allow for human judgement? In this case, it appears some written rule was followed, rather than sound judgement.


FYI, in 1996, D'Andre Hill finished second at the trials with a time of 10.92 and was left off the 4x100 team. The answer given to her and her coaches back then was that she didn't have enough relay experience despite being a member an LSU team that was the 4x100 NCAA champions all four years of her collegiate career. You do the math.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby gh » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:07 pm

ATK wrote:
gh wrote:I could swear this thread is titled US 4x1.

Considering it wouldn't make sense to create a thread for every country's relay team, I also think the conversation here is relevant to the US ladies. Since the Jamaican 4x1 is the closest competition, it seems as if the discussion sprouted from how can the US match up with the Jamaican ladies.


Then create a U.S. vs. Jamaica thread. It's free-speech weekend, you're allowed.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:14 pm

I see people writing such nonsense as "if they run that runner on third leg, we must counter by running this runner on third leg", "if they lead-off with this runner, we must counter by leading off with that runner". Here this: 4x100 relays are time trials, not tactical races. If you're worrying about what the other teams are doing, you've got problems.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby ATK » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:31 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:I see people writing such nonsense as "if they run that runner on third leg, we must counter by running this runner on third leg", "if they lead-off with this runner, we must counter by leading off with that runner". Here this: 4x100 relays are time trials, not tactical races. If you're worrying about what the other teams are doing, you've got problems.

To be clear I agree with you, each team should run legs to maximize the strengths of an athlete, not be better than the athlete on the same leg as them.

The argument I think is, overall the US ladies have to choose the fastest team to solidify victory.
Assuming Jamaica and the US have the same passing efficiency, it will be a very close race if the US does not choose the best line up.

Bianca Knight and even though she has run 3 relays with the US team (Daegu + Penn) I think Tarmoh can be just as if not more efficient with passes, and she is just overall faster.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby j-a-m » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:42 pm

Z89 wrote:I would have taken her just for her relay experience and baton passing skills

Agreed, there are many reasons why including K. Duncan would've been a good idea. If nothing else, she could run anchor in prelims, when Jeter and Felix are most likely saved for the finals.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby Z89 » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:12 pm

Well, it seems that there is uncertainty about the relay team selection. Another news source from Baton Rouge, LA, posted a story yesterday stating that Kimberlyn Duncan will be attending the upcoming relay camp and has a chance to make the team, and further states that the 6 members will be chosen on July 21st.

http://theadvocate.com/sports/3261612-3 ... mpson-lead

So, what is the real story? Most media sources stated yesterday that the relay team members have already been selected (and they did not include Duncan).

I have a passion for the relays and am hoping that Duncan makes the team because I think it would increase USA's chances of earning Gold. It's driving me nuts that there are differing stories out there...
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:14 am

Z89 wrote:I have a passion for the relays and am hoping that Duncan makes the team because I think it would increase USA's chances of earning Gold. It's driving me nuts that there are differing stories out there...

One thing to remember is that Duncan is the only top four finisher in any of the sprints who has no agent or shoe company lobbying on her behalf, and that the relays have always been about politics and not merit.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby guru » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:04 pm

guru wrote:Everything just changed - Marshevet Hooker is pregnant.



I see Hooker is back in training. Anybody know when she gave birth and what she had(boy/girl)?
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby toyracer » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:22 pm

guru wrote:
guru wrote:Everything just changed - Marshevet Hooker is pregnant.



I see Hooker is back in training. Anybody know when she gave birth and what she had(boy/girl)?


I believe she has a daughter.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby ATK » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:47 pm

Anyone know the status of Tianna Madison now that Rana Reider moved to the UK?
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby fourjz » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:09 pm

Watched the 4x100 relay another 10-15 times saturday.Ha Ha !! :lol:
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby guru » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:55 am

Well, now that Hooker is back training full speed ahead, it's gonna be REAL interesting to see how Drummond handles that 3rd leg if she's back at least running sub-11 next year(it would seem like a no-brainer, but...)
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:18 pm

guru wrote:Well, now that Hooker is back training full speed ahead, it's gonna be REAL interesting to see how Drummond handles that 3rd leg if she's back at least running sub-11 next year(it would seem like a no-brainer, but...)

Why is it a no-brainer given the fact that Bianca Knight has proven herself to be to most reliable baton handler on the team? There's no guarantee that the team would have run faster if someone with superior footspeed had run in place of Knight.
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Re: About That London US Women's 4x100

Postby TrackFan4Ever » Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:24 pm

Agreed! The bottom-line is that BK produced and at the same time made the comments of some look utterly stupid.
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