Take notice of Schippers-7.18s in WIC /7.14s PB


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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby MDelano » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:37 am

Gabriella wrote:Her main problem is her HJ. But why is this weak? Nianchengyu suggests this is because she has problems with her knees. I suggest if this is the case she needs to consider a different take-off leg or a completely different technique, like the straddle. If she can never improve this event then it's more unlikely she will ever be a champion at senior level with a 1.70 HJ...but...Sabine John score 6814 with just a 1.74 high jump in 1984 (oh, and a 41m JT too) Ramona Neubert scored 6789 with a 1.74 highjump; Svetlana Pishtikova scored 6658 with a 1.75 highjump; Natalya Shubenkova scored 6631 with a 1.70 highjump all good scores that could win gold or lesser medals today.

Schippers is only 19, she's world junior champion in the heptathlon, she already has the technical background she needs in the hurdles, jumps and throws. She's more likley to do well in this event compared to the 100/200 where they are much more competitive and athletes are more likley to have a breakthrough. The heptathlon is still under represented but the Netherlands has a great tradition in this event. I say she should stick with this event and if she cannot progress, then move to the sprints.


She just gave an interview on Dutch national tv in which she elaborated a bit on her knee problem. She said she had microtear in her knee tendon two years ago and blames it on the fact that she was wrongly instructed to jump with a large knee angle when she was young. Every time she reverts back to this old technique the problem reappears.
It doesn't affect her sprints or long jumps though.

I don't think the straddle would be a solution (and her coach Bart Bennema is smart enough to having considered it) but apart from that, Gabriella, you're again making some very astute observations.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby Gabriella » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:14 am

We'll probably have to agree to disagree here (although it seems we're disagreeing more with the evidence we're producing, as we're both saying she's a great sprinter and heptathlete, we just disagree on which should be her priority!)

To respond to your points though:

1. I never said she COULDN'T run 10.6 either. Just that statistically it is hugely unlikely. And I don't think she ever will.

2. The difference between a black man running sub 9.7 and a white women running a 10.6, is that a a number of black men were consistently running 9.7's, 9'8's and 9'9's in the immediate years prior to 9.6. So when one does run 9.6, it's no shock. Where are the white women consistently running 10.7? Or 10.8? Or 10.9? Hell, where are the white women consistently running 11.0 or 11.1?
The fact remains that no white women are consistently running times that suggest a 10.6 is happening anytime soon.
I see your point using those European examples, but as we know in hindsight, the GDR were using a state doping programme. It is possible other eastern bloc countries were. What I tried to show in my earlier post is that history has shown us that sub 11 is an extremely rare occurance in European women. It is not so rare for Caribbean and American women. I personally think this is either to do with race or doping or a combination of both.


3. We agree she's one of the best junior sprinters as well as heptathlete. The interesting thing about multieventers who show excellence in one event, then go on to specialise in it, is that it's not always with the same outcome. Hellebaut did extremely well; Kluft not so. Gomez did well but Skjuyte didn't. It's not a given that because she is fast she will excel in the sprints.

4. Fair enough, but show me an example of a recent (post Berlin wall) successful and talented white European Junior sprinter that went on to excel as a senior and run sub 11 (without a drugs stain) Whether you feel comfortable talking about race or not is irrelevant; the fact remains that there appears to be a correlation between race and sprint times. It might be culture and not genetics but either way, statistically, a sprinter's ethnic background is a relevant factor, just as a long distance runner's background is relevant.


5. We'll have to disagree here. To make a direct comparison of Dafne's progression to women that go through a completely different sports system, and yes, are from a completely different ethnic background, is not as useful as comparing her to other white european women from a similar sports system.
You need to stop being so sensitive about the notion of ethnicity and what makes us different. No one is suggesting that any race is better than another, just that there appear to be differences. Just as we know that only people from certain ethnic backgrounds get sickle cell, or are more likely to get heart disease, or more likely to get diabetes, why does it upset you to think that athletes from certain countries just may have a genetic advatange in certain events?

6. I disagree. Her speed is there, she doesnt need to develop her speed anymore to improve her heptathlon events. What she does need to improve is her general strength and technique. She can gain a meter in the SP, she can gain 5m in the JT, she (hopefully) can improve her HJ and she can go sub 13secs in the 100mh. Being faster over 100/200 will not make her a sub 13sec hurdler. She's already faster than Ennis/Fountain/Zelinka who are sub 13 sec hurdlers. She needs to improve her technique. And this she will, with age, experience and more training.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby weia » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:36 am

High jump and javelin shure will come. She jumped 1.65 when she just had turned 15, that was her talent, with quite poor technique. She almost never trained the event (and when she trained she hardly listened...). I am quite sure that she will have a base level of 1.75 between now and two years, and a pb of 1.85 would not surprise me.
The javelin will come too. It is merely a mental aspect, she too much wants to force the javelin and therefore does not hit it properly. A base level of 45 seems logic, this year or next. A pb of nearly 50 would not surprise me, she is not of that class of women hep athletes who are not able to master the event.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby preston » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:46 am

We are seeing this from two different perspectives but it's because you like to draw conclusions where I believe none exist.

Gabriella wrote:2. The difference between a black man running sub 9.7 and a white women running a 10.6, is that a a number of black men were consistently running 9.7's, 9'8's and 9'9's in the immediate years prior to 9.6. So when one does run 9.6, it's no shock. Where are the white women consistently running 10.7? Or 10.8? Or 10.9? Hell, where are the white women consistently running 11.0 or 11.1?
The fact remains that no white women are consistently running times that suggest a 10.6 is happening anytime soon.
I see your point using those European examples, but as we know in hindsight, the GDR were using a state doping programme. It is possible other eastern bloc countries were. What I tried to show in my earlier post is that history has shown us that sub 11 is an extremely rare occurance in European women. It is not so rare for Caribbean and American women. I personally think this is either to do with race or doping or a combination of both.


Again, you are too married to race to see that the answer possibly lies elsewhere. You refuse to treat athletes like individuals regardless of their racial predilections. The black athlete, Bolt, who ran sub-9.7 had never broken 10 only one year prior! The white athlete, Lemaitre, at the age of 21 has run under 10.10 more times than all other white athletes in the history of the sport COMBINED, and he's run under-10 more than the others ran under 10.20. Should we argue about the historical significance of white sprinters or do we treat him as an individual? Is he not white? Is he on drugs? Does his race now not matter, even if he is an extreme outlier? The fact that there are no white women CURRENTLY who are running 11.0 or even 11.1 doesn't mean that none will ever come along, but a different question to ask is WHERE ARE THE BLACK EUROPEANS IF THE COACHING IS SO GREAT? I mean why just harp on white women if the black women in Europe are also of marginal quality and certainly no threat to NACAC women? Are the Blacks in Europe less black than their African and NACAC counterparts? And, I am just not as cynical as you are to attribute it to doping. You are. At least you admit it.

Gabriella wrote:3. We agree she's one of the best junior sprinters as well as heptathlete. The interesting thing about multieventers who show excellence in one event, then go on to specialise in it, is that it's not always with the same outcome. Hellebaut did extremely well; Kluft not so. Gomez did well but Skjuyte didn't. It's not a given that because she is fast she will excel in the sprints.

Agreed. But, few, if any, multieventers get "faster" not concentrating on sprinting. They come to a point where they just stall their sprints trying to become more proficient in their "technical" events. Now, I never said that she WILL excel at the sprints; I said that she is at a point in age that she has shown the ability to excel at the sprints. No different than a Lemaitre at his age or a Guliyev at his age. There will never be their female equivalent if Europeans, who think like you, believe they are physically incapable of getting there. Thankfully, Australia didn't think that way or Sally Pearson would be a Pole vaulter.

Gabriella wrote:4. Fair enough, but show me an example of a recent (post Berlin wall) successful and talented white European Junior sprinter that went on to excel as a senior and run sub 11 (without a drugs stain) Whether you feel comfortable talking about race or not is irrelevant; the fact remains that there appears to be a correlation between race and sprint times. It might be culture and not genetics but either way, statistically, a sprinter's ethnic background is a relevant factor, just as a long distance runner's background is relevant.

I have no problem talking about race, it's YOU that has the problem talking about race and reducing athletes ability SOLELY to their skin color. Lemaitre and Guliyev were European Junior record holders and there were black Europeans in Europe for decades before that happened...what do you attribute that to? What you fail to gather is that I never said that there wasn't a correlation between race and sprint times, I said that the individual determines whether they will be good or not. Jeremy Wariner stands out more so in the US than he ever would in Europe; Tiger Woods stands out in golf, where are the other blacks? Where are the other Williams sisters equivalents overrunning the bastion of white sport, tennis? Regardless of genetic/racial background, Europeans are worse on the track than they were 20 and more years ago. Race is irrelevant to the individual variability of unique human beings.

Gabriella wrote:5. We'll have to disagree here. To make a direct comparison of Dafne's progression to women that go through a completely different sports system, and yes, are from a completely different ethnic background, is not as useful as comparing her to other white european women from a similar sports system.
You need to stop being so sensitive about the notion of ethnicity and what makes us different. No one is suggesting that any race is better than another, just that there appear to be differences. Just as we know that only people from certain ethnic backgrounds get sickle cell, or are more likely to get heart disease, or more likely to get diabetes, why does it upset you to think that athletes from certain countries just may have a genetic advatange in certain events?

Again, you are so hung up on race that even considering that Daphne could be a sprinter is too much for you to digest. I'm not sensitive to race, you are just making racist arguments and the idea that someone could be challenging you on the basis of that frustrates you...but that's your problem, not mine. And, if you're not frustrated, then don't tell me I'm sensitive. It's patronizing. I fully recognize that we are all different, what you and many Europeans fail to recognize is that like Lemaitre and Guliyev...Schippers COULD ALSO BE DIFFERENT. She could be the consistent sub-11 athlete waiting for a coach to take her there. I don't ignore the possibility that she could be, but you do. Again, this is your problem, not mine.

Gabriella wrote:6. I disagree. Her speed is there, she doesnt need to develop her speed anymore to improve her heptathlon events. What she does need to improve is her general strength and technique. She can gain a meter in the SP, she can gain 5m in the JT, she (hopefully) can improve her HJ and she can go sub 13secs in the 100mh. Being faster over 100/200 will not make her a sub 13sec hurdler. She's already faster than Ennis/Fountain/Zelinka who are sub 13 sec hurdlers. She needs to improve her technique. And this she will, with age, experience and more training.

You're correct, she doesn't need more speed to run sub-13, but she needs more repetitions - something she will miss out on as she learns to jump 1.80, shot put 15m or JT 60m. The caution will be as she improves her general strength she may become slower - hindering her 100h, 200 and LJ. She's a special talent, that's agreed, I just think you have more limitations for her than do I. And, yours only has to do with her race, and that's unfortunate - to me, but at least you're honest about it.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby skiboo » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:59 pm

Gabriella wrote:

I dont want to conjour up a race debate, but the only white European woman to have legitimately run sub 11 since Privalova in 1995 is Lalova with her sub 11 from last season. She did that 10.77 but that run is regarded to have had a falty start


preston wrote:Also, Privalova may have been one of the most talented athletes ever to grace this planet! The fact that she never ran faster than 10.77 can be due to a host of reasons; but for the woman who dominates the indoor 60m list [THE AVERAGE OF PRIVALOVA'S TOP-10 60m TIMES (6.949) IS FASTER THAN THE 2ND BEST WOMAN, GAIL DEVERS (6.95); 3rd Best Marion Jones only ran sub-7 once...Ottey 4x, Thanou 2x] to have her 10.77 insulted by a "faulty start" is disingenuous at best -and that's being extremely charitable. Everything about Privalova's ability at 60m (and her exploits at 400m) says she should have been 10.6 and sub-21.5! Everything!

.


I believe Gabriella was talking about Lalova's 10.77, not Privalova's, though she might have been clearer around that. The T&F community in general had trouble with the Lalova time, at the time. Nobody that I recall ever questioned Privalova's 10.77 and neither has Gabriella. SEE:

viewtopic.php?p=217850

Regarding Privalova's times, she clearly gets weaker as one goes from indoors to the 400. She never ran anything great in the 400 - her Olympic hurdles winning time (and 53.02 PR) is actually pretty unimpressive compared to the women ahead of her on the all time list (all of whom had unspectacular sprint speed compared to Irina). Yes, Irina only came late to the event, but then Perec didn't come to the event at all except for one race in Zurich where she ran 53.25.

If Privalova should have run 10.6 and 21.5, what on earth happened? She had several injury free years in the 90s where she was showing up at the Worlds and Olympics and her indoor speed just never translated into anything comparable outdoors, unfortunately. She was a phenomenal talent, but when you beat Torrence by 0.02 in Barcelona 100, then turn around and lose by 0.38 over 200 in the same meet, it's clear that as the race gets longer, Privalova didn't get greater - Torrence did. Same thing with Worlds in 93 and 95.

Enough and I hope I haven't rambled too much.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:12 pm

According to Wikipedia :
Dafne Schippers (Utrecht, 15 June 1992) was a Dutch athlete who has specialized in the all-around. In addition, she excels mainly in the sprint and hurdle numbers. They captured a young athlete for many national junior titles and was at the age of seventeen for the first time champion as a senior. A year later she won the world championships for juniors even the world title in the heptathlon. She is in the history of the Dutch junior and senior track and field athlete or the athlete first, on an all-around world title in a Cup-winning.
Ship press began at the age of nine at the Utrecht Hellas with athletics, and soon fell on both her physical instance as by passion – that last about longer distances. Over the years they became as one of the largest Dutch talents of its information. On her first major, international Championship, the European Youth Championships of 2009 in Novi Sad, she was as a seventeen-year-old fourth in seven camp between athletes, all of which were two years older than the Utrecht. Her total points collected on that occasion they placed themselves with the Dutch of 5507 B-Juniors, aged 16/17 years, first of all time.[edit] Unofficial youth record

2010: First seniorentitelHet year 2010 started well Dafne Schippers. First she was on the NK Apeldoorn indoor champion for the first time in the seniors on the 60 m by Jamile Samuel narrowly defeating. Times: 7.43 to 7.49. Then she took a few weeks later at the National Championship for junior indoor gold in even further by adding the A girls champion in the 60m hurdles on. After she came to 60 m with a solid rival Jamile Samuel juvenile record, both because the bells were still standing at 7.37, while the Amsterdam time her chest slightly earlier than Boatmen on the finish line crowds. In May 2010 she participated in an international combined events in the Italian Dezenzano and stood up to everyone's surprise, after the first day in the lead. The youngest participant that she could not sustain the second day, but she improved during the six-around on her personal bests parts, and therefore her record on the heptathlon. She climbed into this place three of the all-time list for A Dutch girls. The total combined events was a limit to the World Junior Championships in Moncton Canada in July, but her performance in the 200m (23.70) and long jump (6.26 m) were limit performance
One week after the heptathlon, she upgraded Lisse during the traditional season opening games at the Ter Speck Cup best performance ever in the women's 150 meters with her time, unmarketable by Jacqueline Poelman 17.20 dethroned them as unofficial record holder. She was due to this achievement Ter Speck Trophy awarded. [edit] World Champion in the 22 and 23 July juniorenOp turned Dafne at the World Championships for juniors in Moncton again a better all-around. Only the high jump was both literally (it rained constantly) and figuratively in the water (1.63 is well below her PR). All other components were of high quality: a PR in the hurdles (13.87), in a Heptathlon shot put record (13.03) in the 200 meters a fraction too much wind for an official record, but actually does her best race so far (23.41), a PR in the long jump
(6.30) and an even further leap with the wind advantage (6.35, wind may benefit the all-around), in a Heptathlon javelin record (38.03) and 800 m back a PR (2.18,57). The high jump
did not prevent the grand total of 5967 points was also a PR and a Dutch youth record. She was
world champion with a large margin. The old record was Dutch with 5914 points since 1998 in the name of Saskia Meijer, though Marjon Wijnsma in 1984 with 5943 total points better than Meijer scored, but were then nineteen year old is already a senior.
Within the combined events were mainly the long jump and 200 meters of superior level.The boatmen would jump in Moncton on the individual number have yielded a medal, the 200m almost.For dessert was Dafne Schippers one day later in the final of the 4 x 100m relay along, which together with Jamile Samuel and Eva Loreanne Kuhurima Lubbers a bronze medal was
won in a new Dutch youth record of 44.09.[Edit] 2011: Explosion at the 60m indoorIn Dafne Schippers 2011 was an excellent start on Jan. 29 by an international indoor competition in Luxembourg again the Dutch youth indoor record in the 60m to improve.Came first in its series to 7.33, then to 7.28 in the finals of it.The final time was also better than the limit for the European indoor championships in the seniors.Schippers has also worked with such performance to fourth place on the list of best Dutch athletes of all time.Only Nelli Cooman, Els Father and Jacqueline Poelman had ever faster. [1]In the Dutch Junior Championships Indoor in early February 2011 in Apeldoorn, she won the titles in the 60m (7.33) and the 60m hurdles (8.45).A week later she won the senior long jump with a distance of 6.20 m, an improvement of 1 cm of Dutch junior record in 1986 by Mieke van der Kolk.A day later she added a second senior title to it by 60 meters to win and Samuel Jamile Loreanne Kuhurima.This proved to Schippers that her previous indoor sprint speed in Luxembourg had been a fly, because in Apeldoorn, the Hellas-athlete to 7.28 again.Schippers was early March during the indoor European Championships in
Paris on the 60 m to 7.30 twice. It brought her to the semifinals, where they remained in sixth place stabbing. Utrecht itself was not entirely satisfied with its performance. However, it would have been very special, like her debut at a major senior tournament had already directly
resulted in the finals. In Götzis Skippers improved to 28 and May 29, 2011 its best performance in the heptathlon, by a score of 6172 to achieve. It also won the junior an Olympic nomination. At 200 m showed a strong 22.90 Schippers note, creating the Dutch record of Els Vader (22.81) closely approached. Also in the Dutch Junior Championships outdoors in early July, she was successful. She won the title in the 100 meters in 11.13, a time that came close to the Dutch record of Nelli Cooman 1986 (11.08). The performance was not the record books as Dutch juniors, because the tailwind during the final with 2.8 m / s is too hard. Her time of 11.39 in the series, however, marked a new record for A Dutch girls. [2] [edit] European champion in the junior.On 22 and 23 July 2011 was the best athlete on the Schippers heptathlon at the European Junior Championships in Tallinn (Estonia). They earned 6153 points. Boatmen during the heptathlon improved the Dutch junior records in the 100 meters hurdles at 13.27 seconds and the long jump at 6.47 meters. Schippers began the all-around excellent to improve the Dutch junior record of 13.38 Judith Fish. Schippers was 13.27. In the high jump was a successful attempt at 1.60 rejected because Schippers for her turn jump. Shippers still eventually reached 1.63. Also in the shot put Skippers stayed behind the record-around. The athlete pushed the ball to 13.47. On the final song of the day could be revenge Schippers. With her 22.91 (-0.4) was 1.3 seconds faster than she over its competitors
The second day of the all-around began with a controversy surrounding the long jump. Schippers' third attempt at a so-called doorloper, who was considered valid, but the jury was not measured. To compensate Schippers was fourth attempt. They improved from 6.08 to 6.47 her first attempt (-0.8) and thus broke her second Dutch junior record in this tournament. The old record was 6.43 with Mieke van der Kolk. On the left part javelin 39.76 Schippers note, which is also an improvement on her PR-around meant. The two days of competition in warm conditions have demanded their toll during the final 800 meters, which only 2.22,40 Schippers had recorded, but claimed the gold safely. [4]Striking during this tournament was that SCHIPPERS with its performance on the parts hurdles, 200 m and the long jump has been acquiring better results than the winners on the individual numbers.[edit] Dutch champion in the seniorenEen
week later Ship won the 100 m Championships in the Dutch press in 11.41 (-0.9). They beating her Dutch Samuel Jamile rivales (11.75) and Anouk Hagen (standing at 39). In the series ran SCHIPPERS faster than the Dutch limit for the World Championships in 2011 in Daegu, but there was something too much wind: 11,27 (+ 2.1).During the World Championships, where they competed in the 200 m, improved Ship press on 1 september the 30 year old Dutch record of Els father. She won her heat in a time of 22,69, an improvement of 0.12 second.[5] In the semi-final, she was fifth, one place too short for a performance in the final.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:16 am

there are some word by MDelano :
Past winter 2010 she had some issues with a tendon in the knee joint which made training for the high jump in particular difficult. If she can past that and do some proper training, and also improve a bit in the throws she is well on her way to making a major impact on the senior scene.
Her sprinting is spectacular. Yesterday's 22.91 (-0.4) again an improvement over the 22.90 (+1.8) in Götzis.
11.39 is what she ran easing off in the preliminary rounds of the Dutch junior champs. In the final she blasted 11.13w (+2.9). Sensational, but given the abundance of talent in the sprints from the Americas I think she's making the right choices (and it's not like the training for the hep is currently hampering her improvement in the sprints).
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:16 am

there are some word by MDelano :
Past winter 2010 she had some issues with a tendon in the knee joint which made training for the high jump in particular difficult. If she can past that and do some proper training, and also improve a bit in the throws she is well on her way to making a major impact on the senior scene.
Her sprinting is spectacular. Yesterday's 22.91 (-0.4) again an improvement over the 22.90 (+1.8) in Götzis.
11.39 is what she ran easing off in the preliminary rounds of the Dutch junior champs. In the final she blasted 11.13w (+2.9). Sensational, but given the abundance of talent in the sprints from the Americas I think she's making the right choices (and it's not like the training for the hep is currently hampering her improvement in the sprints).
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby weia » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:43 am

Nianchengyu: you did an automatic translation of the Dutch wikipedia page on Dafne, I suppose? I am Dutch so when things are unclear, ask. I am of the same track club of Dafne by the way.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby Gabriella » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:53 am

Oh Preston, please stop twisting my words and argument into something it isn’t.

Of course athletes are individuals. I don’t believe I ever said they weren’t. But there are statistics and facts that illustrate if you’re a white European woman you are extremely unlikely to be running 10.6. I don’t see why you have a problem with this factual statement other than for you, it’s politically sensitive.
And where did I say that because we don’t currently have any white women running 10.6-11.1 that we’ll never get one? I never said such a thing, I said that it is unlikely, based on historical evidence. You seem to constantly want to ignore the statistical evidence and twist my words from “statistically unlikely” to “will never happen”.

On the black European vs black American/Caribbean debate; yes, I am cynical about certain countries. Again, it’s plain fact that Jamaica’s antidoping federation is nowhere near on the level of that of the UK, Germany or France. When the heads of international sports federations publicly speak out about the lack of testing in a country you have to worry. But that is another issue; we’re discussing Dafne. (But if you think the whole world is a level playing field you’re extremely naïve.)

I am not presenting athletes solely on their skin colour, which is why I mentioned the US collegiate system, as it’s completely different to how European sprinters are brought up. You just seem to be jumping on one point I made and now we’ve ended up with this debate. You seem to have a problem understanding my argument. Of course someone can come along and be the one that breaks the mould, but that doesn’t mean that the likelihood of this happening is small. I don’t say Dafne isn’t the one to be the first 10.6 white European sprinter, I just doubt very, very much that she will be.

On your last point; I certainly do not set more limitations on her than you do at all. And once again, I do not limit her by her race; I’m just presenting the case that it’s unlikely…you just do not seem to be able to grasp statistics or historical evidence. Let’s wait for Schippers to run sub 10.9 before we start saying she could run 10.6 , because IMO, there is absolutely no evidence that she can rub 10.6 just because she’s a fast Junior. In fact, history has shown that more often than not, fast juniors never fulfil their talent, whether black, white or green

To clarify the 10.77, yes, it was of course about Lalova. No one accepts that time as genuine. Privalova is the the greatest white 100m runner since Marlies Gohr. (Block & Thanou I completely remove from any discussion because of their doping links) but even Privalova only showed sub 10.9 form consistently in one season, 1992.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:49 am

weia wrote:Nianchengyu: you did an automatic translation of the Dutch wikipedia page on Dafne, I suppose? I am Dutch so when things are unclear, ask. I am of the same track club of Dafne by the way.

really?what ocuppation are you doing,or you just take a joke, :)
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby preston » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:23 am

Gabs, I'm not twisting your words. If statistics tell us anything its that it is very unlikely to run 10.6 if you are black, white, green or not named Flojo. Because the only other 10.6'ers were either PED busted (Jones) or don't have the development curve of Schippers (Jeter). You see I don't have a problem with discussing race; it's NOT sensitive to me. However, you are particularly enebriated by it; staggering your arguments with false conclusions.

Definition time....kind of like Sesame Street. When you use STATISTICS you are saying that over the course of European history white women have done, or not done, x relative to the POPULATION of women who attempted x. When I use individual, I also am using statisitics, but mine addresses the EVENT; either it will happen (individual white woman will achieve x) or it won't. That's a 50/50 chance. You are using the former and claiming the latter, and that's not right. Then again, I SUCK at statistics so some of are more esteemed statisticians may weigh in. So, yes, as long as you keep talking about statistics and Daphne Schippers, the individual, then you are certainly reducing her solely to her race, BUT if you talk about her as a generic white woman who doesn't exist, then you would be correct to talk "statistically". If you want to reduce her to a junior that doesn't exist then you can, but you can't use Daphne specifically...because either she will or she won't. You seem to leave no/little room for the "might be sub-11" because of her race and not because of her progression to date. That's a race argument, not a statistical one.

Skiboo was correct, I mistook Privalova's time but not what I wanted to convey - Lalova was a flyer and shouldn't count. Privalova may not have been just the best white sprinter since Gohr, she could have been the best sprinter since Flojo.

skiboo wrote:Regarding Privalova's times, she clearly gets weaker as one goes from indoors to the 400. She never ran anything great in the 400 - her Olympic hurdles winning time (and 53.02 PR) is actually pretty unimpressive compared to the women ahead of her on the all time list (all of whom had unspectacular sprint speed compared to Irina). Yes, Irina only came late to the event, but then Perec didn't come to the event at all except for one race in Zurich where she ran 53.25.

If Privalova should have run 10.6 and 21.5, what on earth happened? She had several injury free years in the 90s where she was showing up at the Worlds and Olympics and her indoor speed just never translated into anything comparable outdoors, unfortunately. She was a phenomenal talent, but when you beat Torrence by 0.02 in Barcelona 100, then turn around and lose by 0.38 over 200 in the same meet, it's clear that as the race gets longer, Privalova didn't get greater - Torrence did. Same thing with Worlds in 93 and 95.

Enough and I hope I haven't rambled too much.

We can't really quantify Privalova's ONE season as a 400h against those on the all-time list; I think that's a bit unfair (Remember, Perec was also a VERY GOOD junior 400h before dedicating herself to the flat). If, and that's gonna be my operative word for the rest of this post, Privalova would have been healthy for at least 2 more seasons the WR would be under 52, imo. Also, I disagree that Privalova got worse as the distance got longer; she got worse as the competition got STRONGER.

In Berlin '09 Fraser-Price ran 10.73 and 10.79 off of 6.88 and 6.94 60 times, respectively; Kerron Stewart ran 6.96 and 6.94 to run 10.75 and 10.84 (yes she ran faster with the slower 60m); Carmelita Jeter ran 7.01 and 7.00 to run 10.90 and 10.83. 6.949 is the AVERAGE of Privalova's top-10 60m times. So why is someone who is consistently faster than anyone EVER not reproducing her early season marks outdoors? That's underperforming! Privalova, based upon her early season, should have run SEVERAL 10.7's and possibly 10.6x. She was easily taller than SAFP, CJ or KS and she easily had better 200m and 400m times...why can she not finish - or start as well as she does indoors?

The answer may lie in skiboo's comparison. Privalova may not be as competitive as we would like (think Powell or Dan Jansen) and Torrence was a Honey Badger! Privalova is 9th on the indoor 400m list with a time of 50.23 - a time that was 4th best performer when she did it, no other sprinter is near her, certainly not Torrence. In the indoor 200, though Ottey is the WR holder with a time of 21.87, Privalova is 2nd with 22.10. Ottey averaged 22.22 and Privalova averaged 22.25 for their top-5 times; their average is better than the next best competitor, Heike Dreschler (22.27), best. Add in the fact that Privalova anchored some very good Russian 4x4's so they knew that she was probably better than all the women they had running on the team. I am fairly convinced that Torrence should have run under 21.5 and her headwind from hell race bears that out. Looking at all the variables of ability and the only thing that sticks out is that Privalova is not competitive unless she is dominant; she's Asafa Powell's precursor. But, the raw numbers say that she COULD have been sub-10.7/21.5.

Would you believe I'm not a conspiracy theorist? :lol:
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:11 am

she finished 10th in WIC with a time of 7.25s which below-par for her,but that is just the beginning of the season,let us see what she can do this summer ,to go over 6400p,run close to 11s and 22.30s?Bless her.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:20 am

Also, in LONDON OLY she can take part in hep ,200m both indiviually and 4 by 100m relay ,200m heat is two days later the hep,6th,Aug.100m is impossible for the same day of hep, :(
Last edited by nianchengyu on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:20 am

Also,she can take part in hep ,200m both indiviually and 4 by 100m relay ,200m heat is two days later the hep,6th,Aug.100m is impossible for the same day of hep, :(
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby preston » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:15 am

7.25s may be less than her PB but as a semifinalist I wouldn't describe her WIC experience as below par. The only European to make the final was Lalova and she 7.23 to do it; Daphne ran 7.25. When I think that she has done this well in the sprints while training for the heptathlon it really says a lot about her ability (not too different than Ennis' 60h/100h ability). But, if she can run closer to 11s (11.0x?) or 22.30 (a time that not even Allyson Felix ran last year) then I would much rather see her as a sprinter than a multi-eventer.
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby weia » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:23 am

Dafne missed a step shortly after the start and 60 meters is too short to repair that. In Daegu she was 9th in the 200, now 10th in the 60 and still 19 years old.
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:24 am

2012 :
60H/heat:
Pl. Laan Nr Naam PR Vereniging Cat Resultaat Info
1 4 23 BAKKER Sharona 8.41 NEA Volharding Sen 8.17 q
2 3 477 SCHIPPERS Dafne 8.45 Hellas Sen 8.18 q
3 7 456 ROSSUM Helen van 9.33 AKU Sen 9.21 q
4 5 234 HULTEN Neeltje van 9.09 Phoenix Sen 9.25 60m H final ; Official result
Pl. Laan Nr Naam PR Vereniging Cat Resultaat Info
1 5 23 BAKKER Sharona 8.17 NEA Volharding Sen 8.19
2 4 477 SCHIPPERS Dafne 8.18 Hellas Sen 8.33
3 6 348 MEIJ Femke van der 8.36 Suomi Sen 8.62
4 3 76 BROERSEN Nadine 8.67 Sprint Sen 8.64
5 7 297 KROONENBURG Nicole 8.59 Phanos Sen 8.89
6 8 15 BAAK Bianca 9.02 Phanos Sen 9.07
7 1 456 ROSSUM Helen van 9.21 AKU Sen 9.14
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:27 am

2012:

60m Horden vrouwen; series, Heat:1 of 3 ; Official result
Next Heat >>
Pl. Laan Nr Naam PR Vereniging Cat Resultaat Info
1 4 23 BAKKER Sharona 8.41 NEA Volharding Sen 8.17 q
2 3 477 SCHIPPERS Dafne 8.45 Hellas Sen 8.18 q
3 7 456 ROSSUM Helen van 9.33 AKU Sen 9.21 q
4 5 234 HULTEN Neeltje van 9.09 Phoenix Sen 9.25
5 6 439 RIJKEN Noortje 9.79 AV Wijchen Sen 9.51
6 2 339 LUTONTO Vanessa 10.06 Phanos Sen 10.24

60m Horden vrouwen; finale ; Official result
Pl. Laan Nr Naam PR Vereniging Cat Resultaat Info
1 5 23 BAKKER Sharona 8.17 NEA Volharding Sen 8.19
2 4 477 SCHIPPERS Dafne 8.18 Hellas Sen 8.33
3 6 348 MEIJ Femke van der 8.36 Suomi Sen 8.62
4 3 76 BROERSEN Nadine 8.67 Sprint Sen 8.64
5 7 297 KROONENBURG Nicole 8.59 Phanos Sen 8.89
6 8 15 BAAK Bianca 9.02 Phanos Sen 9.07
7 1 456 ROSSUM Helen van 9.21 AKU Sen 9.14
2 407 PETERSEN Nancy van 8.81 AV '34 Sen DNF
60m Horden Vrouwen for Pentathlon , Heat:2 of 2 ; Official result
<< Previous Heat
Pl. Laan Nr Naam PR Vereniging Cat Resultaat Info
1 3 21 SCHIPPERS Dafne Hellas Sen 8.26 1070 P
2 4 22 LANGEN-WISSE Yvonne van AAC Sen 8.50 1017 P
3 5 23 BROERSEN Nadine av Sprint Sen 8.55 1006 P
4 2 33 THORSTEINDOTTIR Helga Mar IJsland Sen 8.97 916 P
5 6 32 MARCUSSEN Ida Noorwegen Sen 8.98 914 P
6 7 28 LERNOUT Samantha RK HAV Sen 9.67 775 P
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:39 am

HJW:
SCHIPPERS Dafne:1.70M 1.65/X0;1.70/XX0;1.75/XXX
HJ W for Pentathlon ; Official result
1st SCHIPPERS Dafne 8.26s 1070 P
3rd SCHIPPERS Dafne 1.66m 806 P 1.63 m/0-;1.66 X0-;1.69/xxx
2nd SCHIPPERS Dafne 13.91m 788 P : X 13.55m 13.91m
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:19 pm

Her PERFORMANCE in 2011:
javelin
1 412 SCHIPPERS Dafne Hellas Utrecht SEN 40.18m 5 - - - 36.09 37.39 40.18
100m H; final, W=+0.6 ; Official result
Pl. Laan Nr Naam PR Result
1 6 574 SCHIPPERS Dafne 13.60 13.38
2 5 151 DUIJN Marloes 14.03 14.05
3 3 323 KOCKEN Rachel 14.22 14.11
4 4 755 WILLIAMS Suzanne 14.37 14.27
5 7 211 GULIK Rochelle van 14.44 14.31
6 8 541 ROSSUM Helen van 14.52 14.60
7 1 455 OOSTERHUIS Anouk 14.49 14.72
8 2 544 ROTS Maureen 14.58 14.94
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:37 am

Welcome everyone to predict which scores can dafne get this year and how fast she will run comparing to Gambetta ,Christina Kiffe,Laura Ikauniece of LAT and Katarina Thompson of GBR?
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:29 pm

preston wrote:A not yet 20 year old with PB's of 11.19, 22.69, 13.27 is NOT a heptathlete (Ashton Eaton could be anything; he's scary!), she's a sprinter! We don't think of Sally Pearson as a heptathlete, and Schippers PB's for age are better than Michelle Perry - who is NO LONGER a heptathlete, but won worlds 1 year after finishing top 8 in the hep at the Olympics and backed it up by winning in Osaka. Ginnie Crawford is more hep than Schippers!!!

Michelle Perry only placed 14th with 6124p,very poor throwings and HJ,LJ also a problem for her.I thought if not so many great players in hurdles,she must give up much more early.
here are pb of Ginnie Crawford ,why said she is more hep than dafne,any other field events for her?
100 metres hurdles:12.45 New York City, New York, United States ,June 2, 2007
60 metres :7.21s Fayetteville, Arkansas, United States ,March 10, 2006
100 metres:11.10s ,Eugene, Oregon, United States ,May 14, 2006
200 metres:23.29s,Los Angeles, California, United States,April 29, 2006
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby weia » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:24 am

Early 2011 I predicted that Dafne should improve the national record on 200 in 2011, the 100 in 2012, the heptathlon in 2013 and the long jump in 2014. The first step has been done.
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby nianchengyu » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:13 pm

your prediction is so funny,if she broke the 100m NR[11.08s] before hep 6423p,she will continue hep for 6423p is more valuable than 11.08s in 100m?
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby nianchengyu » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:21 pm

what scores do you expect when she broke 6.75m NR OF Sharon Jaklofsky,and how about her other events in hep and 100m,thank you.
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby weia » Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:38 am

She wants to be a heptathlete so for her a national record on 100 is (a bit) less important than the hep record.
2012 predictions:
100 11.07
200 22.62
hep 6419 (13.22 1.69 14.4 22.79 6.39 42.13 2.15.55)
javelin 44.57

Your turn.
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby nianchengyu » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:02 am

i just want you to show her individual marks in 2014 when she broke the LJ NR 6.75m,and also 2013,thanks a lot.
As for me,I do not good at predictions,in this year if she reached individuals pb of 13.10,1.72,14.50,22.50,6.45,44.00,2.15.00,11.05s and 6439p series of 13.17-1.68-14.33-22.55-6.39-42.91-2.16.27, I will be so happy.
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby MDelano » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:04 am

Last year she could focus entirely on the sprints after the heptathlons in Götzis and at the EC juniors and this allowed significant improvement in the sprints in august. This year from what I heard it'll be Götzis, 200 at EC, heptathlon in London. Therefore she'll needs to keep training all the events so I wouldn't be surprised if her sprint times stay more or less the same (7.18 indoors extrapolates to 11.1-11.2).
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby nianchengyu » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:26 am

MDelano wrote:Last year she could focus entirely on the sprints after the heptathlons in Götzis and at the EC juniors and this allowed significant improvement in the sprints in august. This year from what I heard it'll be Götzis, 200 at EC, heptathlon in London. Therefore she'll needs to keep training all the events so I wouldn't be surprised if her sprint times stay more or less the same (7.18 indoors extrapolates to 11.1-11.2).

from my knowing,her 100m pb 11.19/11.16+2.1 just 3weeks after EJC AND before EJC she already ran 11.13s/+2.200m is only runinng in hep before WC which lacked oppents.
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby mump boy » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:26 am

Predicting that anyone with a pb of 11.19 will run 10.6 is nonsense no matter what race.

Lalova's 10.77 is a complete joke she's taken 2 strides before anyone else had left the blocks
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby weia » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:48 am

Dafne ran 11.13 with +2.8 last year, not +2.2.
And she did not completely focus on the spints after Götzis, she trained for all events.
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby nianchengyu » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:39 pm

weia wrote:Dafne ran 11.13 with +2.8 last year, not +2.2.
And she did not completely focus on the spints after Götzis, she trained for all events.

i am sorry to forget to put 8 into it ,how about your prediction for dafne in 2013 and 2014?
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby weia » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:41 am

2013 and 2014 is much too difficult..
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby nianchengyu » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:21 pm

just bold a bit,believe your ability,please, :roll:
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby nianchengyu » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:54 pm

I agree. Physically she looks far more developed and muscular, even more so than Gambetta who is by far the better thrower. Dafne looks athletic while Gambetta looks like a regular girl, even slightly under conditioned. [/quote]
yeah,dafne is athletic,fit for hep from figure point,however, i do not simply divided her into early developer,at her beginning time of track and field,Samuel,her compariot with same age to dafne,early years also started as all-around,mush better than her,very very ordinary until 2008,ranking first in NED in junior hep in NED way,5235 Dafne Schippers 15/06/92 Hellas Enschede 21/09/08
14,16 * 1,63 * 12,04[3kg] * 24,96 * 5,50 * 34,05 * 2.29,41 * 0,9 * 1,0 * -0,6
, this year she ran 100m 12.01s/+3.0. in 2009,she taking part in EJC with a result of 5507p,5507 Dafne Schippers NED 15/06/1992 4 Novi Sad 26/07/2009
( 14.05/2.2 - 1.69 - 12.01 - 24.21/0.9 / 5.62/-1.0 - 34.04 - 2:23.01 )
In a word, it is hard to predict dafne, her coach bennema paid enough attention for her not to train too heavily and too much comp,she quit EC in 2010 and had a thought no WC in 2011,finally only 200m and relay .
for Gambetta,even not develop encough,that strong for me to see her at EJC,about 1.82 and 78-84kg and even a little stronger than dobrynska.
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby preston » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:25 am

mump boy wrote:Predicting that anyone with a pb of 11.19 will run 10.6 is nonsense no matter what race.

Lalova's 10.77 is a complete joke she's taken 2 strides before anyone else had left the blocks

No where in the thread is it predicted that 11.19 WILL translate to 10.6. NO WHERE. What is nonsense is you trying to build straw man.
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby mump boy » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:05 am

preston wrote:
mump boy wrote:Predicting that anyone with a pb of 11.19 will run 10.6 is nonsense no matter what race.

Lalova's 10.77 is a complete joke she's taken 2 strides before anyone else had left the blocks


No where in the thread is it predicted that 11.19 WILL translate to 10.6. NO WHERE. What is nonsense is you trying to build straw man.


Charming as usual :roll:
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Re: Take notice of dafne schippers

Postby preston » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:20 am

mump boy wrote:
preston wrote:
mump boy wrote:Predicting that anyone with a pb of 11.19 will run 10.6 is nonsense no matter what race.

Lalova's 10.77 is a complete joke she's taken 2 strides before anyone else had left the blocks


No where in the thread is it predicted that 11.19 WILL translate to 10.6. NO WHERE. What is nonsense is you trying to build straw man.


Charming as usual :roll:

You're doing that thing you do again...and you should stop. Or, support your case that someone, anyone, predicted that 11.19 WILL lead to 10.6.
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Re: dafne schippers definitely said she is a heptathlete.

Postby infinityemmo » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:11 pm

nianchengyu wrote:I agree. Physically she looks far more developed and muscular, even more so than Gambetta who is by far the better thrower. Dafne looks athletic while Gambetta looks like a regular girl, even slightly under conditioned.

yeah,dafne is athletic,fit for hep from figure point,however, i do not simply divided her into early developer,at her beginning time of track and field,Samuel,her compariot with same age to dafne,early years also started as all-around,mush better than her,very very ordinary until 2008,ranking first in NED in junior hep in NED way,5235 Dafne Schippers 15/06/92 Hellas Enschede 21/09/08
14,16 * 1,63 * 12,04[3kg] * 24,96 * 5,50 * 34,05 * 2.29,41 * 0,9 * 1,0 * -0,6
, this year she ran 100m 12.01s/+3.0. in 2009,she taking part in EJC with a result of 5507p,5507 Dafne Schippers NED 15/06/1992 4 Novi Sad 26/07/2009
( 14.05/2.2 - 1.69 - 12.01 - 24.21/0.9 / 5.62/-1.0 - 34.04 - 2:23.01 )
In a word, it is hard to predict dafne, her coach bennema paid enough attention for her not to train too heavily and too much comp,she quit EC in 2010 and had a thought no WC in 2011,finally only 200m and relay .
for Gambetta,even not develop encough,that strong for me to see her at EJC,about 1.80 and 75-80kg and even a little stronger than dobrynska.[/quote]

I don't know about the multi's, but regarding the sprints, Jamile Samuel and Schippers always had their 'battles'. Sometimes Samuel won, sometimes Schippers. But as of lately it seems Schippers has Jamiles' number. And i think it will stay that way unless Jamile at least fixes her start + first 30 meters, but more important she has to stay healthy.
Last edited by infinityemmo on Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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