Junior Shot Put '13 [Bukowiecki 22.24 WYBi]


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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Tuariki » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:58 pm

The role of NZ officials in the debacle of the Jacko Gill qualifying story

April 2011

ENTRY STANDARDS
Approved by IAAF Council April 2011

Men - Shot Put
A Standard - 20.50m
B Standard - 20.00m


23 April 2011

Jacko Gill throws 20.01m to beat the just announced Olympic B qualifying standard.
A simply amazing incredible performance for a 16 year old.

9 May 2011

The New Zealand Olympic Committee's Keryn Smith is reported in the NZ media saying that:

1) NZ Olympic selection standards are diffferent than the IAAF standards
2) NZ sets a standard based on an expected Top-16 finish.
3) The IAAF standard is below the one the NZOC and NZ Athletics will set
4) Only two athletes per country are able to be selected per event

The rules for the London Olympics clearly state that up to three athletes per country, who acheive the 'A' standard set by the IAAF, may be selected.

In 2004 Olympics a 20.01m throw woud have place 10th in the final
In 2008 Olympics a 20.01m throw woud have place 11th in the final

This would seen to be pretty conclusive evidence that Jacko had every right to claim an expectation of being able to meet the required expectation of a top-16 finish.

It would also seem pretty conclusive evidence that the IAAf qualifying B standard for the shot exceeds the required expectation of a top-16 finish.


17 June 2011

The minutes of the monthly board meeting for NZ Athletics reports that:

1) Jacko's 20.01m throw is ratified.
2) The 2012 Olympic selection policy is approved. However, strangely enough no mention is made just what this entails. There is no reference to the selection standards. No appendix that has the selections standards. A review of all previous and subsequent board minutes shows that the performance standards have never been recorded as being aproved.

However, after much searching of the NZ Athletics web site - one of the most user-unfriendly sites I have come across - I finally found the NZ Athletics standards for London 2012.


3. Nomination Criteria
Athletes seeking nomination must satisfy the following nomination criteria:

4. Performance Standards and Qualifying Periods
4.1 An athlete should attain the required performance standard on at least one occasion.

9. Performance Standards
Men - - - - Event
20.30 - - - Shot Put

http://performance.athletics.org.nz/ind ... -team-page

Jacko was made aware that his 20.01 was not good enough and that he was required to meet the 20.30 standard set down by the NZ Athletics Board. It is my understanding that 20.30m was the top-16 expectation standard set by NZ Athletics which in my opinion was not unreasonable, although given the recent history of the mens shot at the Olympics and the World Champs it could be argued it was unnecessarily high.

November 2011

ENTRY STANDARDS
Approved by IAAF Council April 2011
Amended by IAAF Council November 2011
Men
A Standard - 20.50m
B Standard - 20.00m

Extracted from IAAF web ste

The IAAf amends some of the qualifying standards but not the men's standards for the shot.
Jacko still meets the B standard but not the NZ Athletics standard.

4 December 2011

I get to watch Jacko throw 20.38m. Still 16 years old.

Jacko now meets the NZ Athletics standard. His 20.38 would have placed 10th in Beijing, 6th in Athens, 6th in Sydney. The throw would have placed him 9th in Daegu (Also 6th= at Istanbul). It is pretty much impossible for NZ Athletics to argue against the claim that it is a reasonable expectation that Jacko would make the top-16 at London.

He also meets ALL requirements for selection under NZ Athletics selection policy.

25 March 2012

The first announcement of TnF athletes for London are announced. Jacko is not on that list. NZ Athletics states it is because he has not made the A performance standard. However, there is nothing in the NZ Athletics Olympic selection criteria that states he must meet the IAAF A standard.

It has been suggested in some quarters that they waited because it is possible someone else might meet the standard - that is, Tom Walsh a 19 year old who has thrown 18.83m and is the world's 5th best junior shot putter. However, given his recent performances only the world's most optimistic one-eyed Walsh supporter would think Walsh has any chance of achieving 20.30m before London 2012.

As at today

The most exciting shot prospect in history has told NZ Athletics to shove it. He doesn't want to bother with the Olympics anymore. He is tired of being screwed around. First they put in an age limit rule last year that prevents him from competing in he NZ senior shot - a rule that the IAAF does not have - and quite possibly no other country has. i can't think why any other country in the world would be stupid enough to put in a rule, contrary to IAAF rules, that would prevent the country's national record holder from competing in its own national champs. But then again we seem to historically breed a typically stupid form of adminstrator in NZ.

If the NZ selectors were truly worried about 2 thoers reaching the B standard, and if they had half a brain, they would have announced that Jacko was provisionally selected for London but because it was technically feasible someone else might also achieve the 20.30m standard then final confirmation could not be made until the final cut off date in July. Such an anouncement would then have told Jacko that he was fully and totally supported by NZ Athletics and barring the unlikely he was definitely going to London.

But unfortunately the NZ Athletics Board does not have half a collective brain between them.

What we have is Athletics New Zealand high performance director Scott Goodman trying to make excuses for his, and the Board's incompetence. They have tried to claim that it was well known what the selection criteria was. And that is just a load of whitewashing crap.

Athletes are required to meet "High Performance" standards and report to a "High Performance" director who, unlike the athletes, only has to operate under low performnce standards.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Tuariki » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:05 pm

mump boy wrote:He's only just 17 years old competing in an event that only improves with maturity, he needs to get back in school, stop messing about on youtube and concentrate on winning the olympics in 8 years time.

What's the rush, apart from David Storl no one on the youth to Jnr all time SP list has achieved anything of note as a senior, i'd prefer to see him competing at the 2028 Olympics than the 2012.


Mump - what a "dorky" comment.

Thank God for Bob Mathias you weren't around to stop him displaying his immaturity at, ironically, London in 1948.

And why does he have to wait till 2020 to concentrate on the Olympics. With your standards I guess you would have stopped Usain Bolt as well.

The reality is that Gill is capable of throwing well over 21m this year. Whether he will or not remains to be seen. However, I saw him thow a legal warm up on 4 December 2011 that measured 20.75m. The kid is a complete phenom - even more so than Storl.

And you want him to wait till 2020!!

I for one hope that he smashes Storls junior record at Barcelona and then a few days later goes on to thrown 21m and then hopefully that will convince him to change his mind.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Vault-emort » Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:51 pm

I would have liked to see him competing in London - just for the experience. I think he is deserving of it and - given his rapid and continued improvement to date - I'm surprised Aths NZL haven't been more encouraging.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby bushop » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:13 pm

Vault-emort wrote:I would have liked to see him competing in London - just for the experience. I think he is deserving of it and - given his rapid and continued improvement to date - I'm surprised Aths NZL haven't been more encouraging.

If Gill hits 20.50m he punches his ticket... otherwise he has to wait like everyone else under the "A" Standard.
Why would NZL do it differently?
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Vault-emort » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:19 pm

mump boy wrote:What's the rush, apart from David Storl no one on the youth to Jnr all time SP list has achieved anything of note as a senior

The youth to junior throws and multi lists are a poor basis for comparison given the changing specs; they're mainly fairly recent marks. Still, Ralf Bartels and Rutger Smith are at least two notable names.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:31 pm

Gill has been pushing the envelope in a sometimes very unreasonable manner in part to make the "A" standard for 2012. I think that this is the best thing for him.


He is like a lot of youngsters - he has a deficit of patience and he needs much more. Now maybe he will focus a little further out and not take such unnecessary risks. Youngsters find that they did X several times so it must be safe -- with little kids running across the street would seem safe because they did it ten times and did not get hurt (or almost hurt). It is entirely the wrong frequency necessary for such an assessment. He has not gotten hurt too many times for too long in training and thinks he knows what he is doing.

Look at his late-night, solo lifting -- if anyone thinks that this is a smart way to train for the long-run I would be stunned.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Vault-emort » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:51 pm

bushop wrote:If Gill hits 20.50m he punches his ticket... otherwise he has to wait like everyone else under the "A" Standard. Why would NZL do it differently?

I'm not saying he had to be named as a definite. More of a 'quiet word' to him and his coach that he's been pencilled in and extremely likely to be named in the final team. That's the kind of encouragement I meant and I can't imagine him withdrawing from contention if that had been the case.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Vault-emort » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:00 pm

26mi235 wrote:Look at his late-night, solo..

Probably better to post an online video of your late-night solo benchpress than an online video of your late-night solo jerk and clean.. :)
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby bushop » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:14 pm

Vault-emort wrote:
bushop wrote:If Gill hits 20.50m he punches his ticket... otherwise he has to wait like everyone else under the "A" Standard. Why would NZL do it differently?
I'm not saying he had to be named as a definite. More of a 'quiet word' to him and his coach that he's been pencilled in and extremely likely to be named in the final team. That's the kind of encouragement I meant and I can't imagine him withdrawing from contention if that had been the case.

One guess is that someone didn't like the idea of Gill being treated like other "B" Standard athletes. Someone may have thought Gill being pencilled in was beneath an athlete in his situation... just a thought... not based on any facts.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Throwers Podcast » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:33 pm

Gill's decision to forgo London only adds to his mystique. He has an opportunity reminiscent of Ricky Bruch circa 1984.

In my opinion, if Gill finished 12th at the Olympics in 2012, it would be a best case scenario. But as he has chosen to forgo the Olympics, imagine if he is able to throw the 16lb ball over 21m during a summer European meet somewhere... The outcry over his exclusion would be deafening! I'm thinking a 21m throw while snubbing the "establishment" is worth much more to his legacy than a top 12 finish would be. And it builds the hype for 2016.

I think he knows exactly what he's doing. No need to feel TOO sorry for him.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Tuariki » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:33 pm

bushop wrote:
Vault-emort wrote:I would have liked to see him competing in London - just for the experience. I think he is deserving of it and - given his rapid and continued improvement to date - I'm surprised Aths NZL haven't been more encouraging.

If Gill hits 20.50m he punches his ticket... otherwise he has to wait like everyone else under the "A" Standard.
Why would NZL do it differently?


He is deserving of it because he has met the Athletics NZ qualifying criteria.

I understand why Athletics NZ is now saying he has to wait. My problem with Atheltics NZ is that if they were half way competent they would have had all of this spelt out in the selection qualifying policy. They didn't. And to even find their woefully inadequate selection document on their web site you need to be nothing short of Sherlock "bloody" Holmes. I think they should revert to part of their former name and call themselves "Amateur" Athletics NZ.

26mi235 wrote:Gill has been pushing the envelope in a sometimes very unreasonable manner in part to make the "A" standard for 2012. I think that this is the best thing for him.

He is like a lot of youngsters - he has a deficit of patience and he needs much more. Now maybe he will focus a little further out and not take such unnecessary risks. Youngsters find that they did X several times so it must be safe -- with little kids running across the street would seem safe because they did it ten times and did not get hurt (or almost hurt). It is entirely the wrong frequency necessary for such an assessment. He has not gotten hurt too many times for too long in training and thinks he knows what he is doing.

Look at his late-night, solo lifting -- if anyone thinks that this is a smart way to train for the long-run I would be stunned.


26mi235 - And that is also a dorky comment.

If you were in NZ around 1958-ish you probably would say that Lydiard was being unreasonable having his athletes running unheard of things like 100 plus miles a week for 800m runners. Just as well as Snell was too stupid to realise that Lydiard was being unreasonable.

Why is it unreasonable for him to train at night? If his parents have learnt to put up with the late night crash banging of weights I can't see why it bothers you all the way in the USA.

For those of you, who like 26mi235 (and I include myself) have had concerns about the risks of injury to Jacko in the way he does lifting without a spotter, and especially in his bench press, that concern is understandable. I had a chat with his Dad Walter last week at the NZ Nationals. Walter says he understands and appreciates the world wide interest in what his son is doing and the concerns over possible serious injury. Walter has said that Jacko has a couple of times been unable to get the weight back up when bench pressing solo. However, Jacko has learnt how to let the weights down on one side and then push up the other side to extricate himself. Not a method I would recommend for yours truly but then Jacko is Jacko (wacko??). No matter what you think he certainly gets the results.

Throwers Podcast wrote:Gill's decision to forgo London only adds to his mystique. He has an opportunity reminiscent of Ricky Bruch circa 1984.

I think he knows exactly what he's doing. No need to feel TOO sorry for him.


I don't feel sorry for Jacko. I feel sorry for me on missing out on seeing what a 17 year old shot putter can achieve in the ultimate setting.




.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby gibson » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:17 pm

this case is a standard illustration of how athletics organizations are really about trumpeting their grand rules, regulations and status, making the big decisions, keeping all those naughty athletes in line.... while real care for the athletes goes by the way side.

good for gill to stick it to athletics new zealand and not suffer through their bullshit selection process and half-ass rules.

the more athletics new zealand can be embarrassed the better it will be for the athlete's that suffer under them.

athletics new zealand is talking bullshit saying gill is making the logical decision, as if to be on gill's side. while insinuating that gill is rash in not waiting for the selection that is sure to come, which is more bullshit, they should have approved him in the first place, and not fooled around with the athletes preparation.

with that said, athletes of experience say there is no better way to prepare for the olympics than by being at one.

into the future, athletics new zealand will play mr. nice guy with gill, knowing that if they screw with him in any way, it will likely blow up in their face.

i love gill. he won't play ball with losers.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Powell » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:03 pm

Throwers Podcast wrote:But as he has chosen to forgo the Olympics, imagine if he is able to throw the 16lb ball over 21m during a summer European meet somewhere... The outcry over his exclusion would be deafening!


He has NOT been excluded, for cryin' out loud. It's 4 months to go to the OG, he would have plenty of time left to qualify.
Storl, Cantwell, Majewski etc. have not gotten their Olympic team berths at this point, either. Should they all also take offense at their respective national federations?
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Athleticsimaging » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:27 am

In case nobody has noticed, the quoted Athletics NZ qualifying distance of 20.30m has been the A qualifier for SP for at least the decade prior to the recent revision to 20.50m. Maybe Athletics NZ forgot to notice that there was a new A standard and had to have some explanation about a "special standard"...... :oops:

Of course, that was never going to be an issue as no NZer would throw that far in 2012. :mrgreen:
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Gabriella » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:18 am

Powell wrote:He has NOT been excluded, for cryin' out loud. It's 4 months to go to the OG, he would have plenty of time left to qualify.
Storl, Cantwell, Majewski etc. have not gotten their Olympic team berths at this point, either. Should they all also take offense at their respective national federations?


This ^^

If Gill wants to throw his toys out the pram then let him. No athlete is bigger than their federation or the sport. He has to follow the qualifying rules, whatever they are, like everyone else. There was/is plenty of time for him to be selected.

Like mump I would rather he not be in London too, it'll help his long term career. Not because I want to be spiteful or rule him out for the sake of it or solely because of his age on paper, but more so because he seems to be just doing far too much too soon in the weights room. He needs to back off or he is going to do himself some serious damage. If he's going to have a strop because he's not in the first round of selections then imagine what he'd be like if he had been selected; we'd probably be reading of more solo late night jerk offs and next thing we know he's torn his shoulder muscle and out for a year.

He just needs to s-l-o-w down a little, not rush and consider his long term career goals...and tailor things around that.

God I hope I'm wrog but I imagine injuries galore for this kid soon and an outstanding career that was never to be.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby tandfman » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:38 am

Gabriella wrote:Like mump I would rather he not be in London too, it'll help his long term career.

I don't know about his "long term career" (which could extend well into the 2020s) but I suspect it would help him at the 2016 Olympic Games if he already had an Olympic experience under his belt--even an unsuccessful one.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Vault-emort » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:08 am

Gabriella wrote:Like mump I would rather he not be in London too, it'll help his long term career. Not because I want to be spiteful or rule him out for the sake of it or solely because of his age on paper, but more so because he seems to be just doing far too much too soon in the weights room. He needs to back off or he is going to do himself some serious damage.

I can't think of any reason why an outstanding (headstrong?) junior prospect in any sport/any event would suddenly back off on his/her training methods because s/he didn't get selected in a senior team.

Probably the opposite..
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby leoesharkey » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:04 am

The best Juniors youths not making it through to seniors????????

" no one on the youth to Jnr all time SP list has achieved anything of note as a senior, i'd prefer to see him competing at the 2028 Olympics than the 2012."

Matson, Long, Carter, Beyer, Kiselyev, Andrei, Blinoh, Barnes were all top juniors who dominated as seniors, have a look through the all time lists
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Throwers Podcast » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:02 am

Gabriella wrote:
Powell wrote:He has NOT been excluded, for cryin' out loud. It's 4 months to go to the OG, he would have plenty of time left to qualify.
Storl, Cantwell, Majewski etc. have not gotten their Olympic team berths at this point, either. Should they all also take offense at their respective national federations?


This ^^

If Gill wants to throw his toys out the pram then let him. No athlete is bigger than their federation or the sport. He has to follow the qualifying rules, whatever they are, like everyone else. There was/is plenty of time for him to be selected.

Like mump I would rather he not be in London too, it'll help his long term career. Not because I want to be spiteful or rule him out for the sake of it or solely because of his age on paper, but more so because he seems to be just doing far too much too soon in the weights room. He needs to back off or he is going to do himself some serious damage. If he's going to have a strop because he's not in the first round of selections then imagine what he'd be like if he had been selected; we'd probably be reading of more solo late night jerk offs and next thing we know he's torn his shoulder muscle and out for a year.


From my perspective, half a world away, Gill was excluded from the initial round of athlete selection for NZ. As a B Standard athlete, he was eligible to be selected and was passed over, thus "excluded" on this go 'round.

After being excluded on the first round, he decided to "throw his toys out of the pram" and declare he now has no intent on competing at the Olympics and ostensibly has withdrawn his name for future consideration in 2012.

It reminds me of the classic Seinfeld episode where George has "no hand" in a relationship with a woman and preemptively breaks up with her in order to gain the upper hand, and increase his power in the relationship. Jacko is "breaking up" with NZ Athletics before NZ Athletics can break up with him. He sets himself up as the little guy taking on the "establishment." Fascinating drama!

Gill, at a very young age, is carving out a reputation in the images of Bruch and Oldfield, the two greatest characters of our sport. A new "rebel" for even casual fans to latch onto.

Personally, from what little I have seen, I, too, find Gill's training methods dangerous. The fact that he dropped out of school (with his parents' blessing) at the age of 16 in order to train full time is ridiculous. And, frankly, NZ Athletics was right not to include him in the initial selection - he hasn't thrown far enough to be a contender. But taking my personal feelings out of it, Gill's 2012 season is fascinating theater and is far from over.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Tuariki » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:47 pm

Powell wrote:
Throwers Podcast wrote:But as he has chosen to forgo the Olympics, imagine if he is able to throw the 16lb ball over 21m during a summer European meet somewhere... The outcry over his exclusion would be deafening!


He has NOT been excluded, for cryin' out loud. It's 4 months to go to the OG, he would have plenty of time left to qualify.


Powell is correct and Podcast wrong re exclusion. Jacko has not been excluded.

However, Powell is wrong on his second sentence. Jacko has already qualified as he has met the only distance stated in the Athletics NZ qualifying criteria - that is 20.30m.

There is nothing in the selection rules for Athletics NZ about an A and a B standard. This is an after thought because they have realised they have cocked up - as usual - by forgetting to take account of the IAAF criteria in writing the NZ selection policy The NZ selection criteria should have specified cut off dates for selection consideration - perhaps separate dates for those meeting the IAAF A standard of 20.50m and the separate NZ standard of 20.30m.

Even now the idiots of Athletics NZ have not set a specified cutoff date for final selection which is the nub of the argument being made by Jacko and his parents. How can he prepare properly when he does not know what these dates are?

If Athletics NZ had taken into account the IAAF A and B standards in its selection criteria then I am sure Jacko would have competed with the 7.26kg in December and/or January until he reached the 20.50m. He didn't because he clearly had already qualified for the Olympics according to the Athletics NZ selction criteria.

Powell wrote:Storl, Cantwell, Majewski etc. have not gotten their Olympic team berths at this point, either. Should they all also take offense at their respective national federations?


Can't comment on Storl and Majewski as I do not know the selection rules for their respective countries. However, as Cantwell is an American he clearly has no reason to complain as the USA selection rules are quite clear - unlike Athletics NZ. Meet the IAAF A standard and finish in the top 3 of the US Olympic Trials and your in the team. At least that is what I understand the selection criteria to be. If I am wrong I apologise in advance.


Gabriella wrote:If Gill wants to throw his toys out the pram then let him. No athlete is bigger than their federation or the sport. He has to follow the qualifying rules, whatever they are, like everyone else. There was/is plenty of time for him to be selected.


As noted above, and contrary to your statement Jacko did follow the published rules. It is very difficult for any athlete to follow rules that are made up on the "hoof". As great an athlete that Jacko is, he aint no mind reader.

He does not claim or given any hint that he is bigger than Athletics NZ or TnF as you suggest. If wanting certainty in selection criteria is considered to be throwing his toys out of the pram then he probably has plenty of company from other athletes.

Throwers Podcast wrote:
Gill, at a very young age, is carving out a reputation in the images of Bruch and Oldfield, the two greatest characters of our sport. A new "rebel" for even casual fans to latch onto.

Personally, from what little I have seen, I, too, find Gill's training methods dangerous. The fact that he dropped out of school (with his parents' blessing) at the age of 16 in order to train full time is ridiculous. And, frankly, NZ Athletics was right not to include him in the initial selection - he hasn't thrown far enough to be a contender. But taking my personal feelings out of it, Gill's 2012 season is fascinating theater and is far from over.


Different? Yes. Rebel? I don't think so - at least not yet. But if the adminstrators of TnF in NZ don't pick up their game it may not be lpng before he does become a rebel.

Dropping out of school? In NZ it is legal to leave school at age 16. Not advisable but legal to do so. However, is Jacko unusual in being an athlete who drops out of school at age 16? For TnF the answer is very clearly yes. But there are plenty of international class athletes who drop out of school in other sports; especially tennis, which has legions of kids not going to school at age 16.

And finally I think Podcast is spot on with his prediction re Gill 2012. Stay tuned because I am sure he has lots more to show us this year. As long as (as we all worry about) doesn't injure himself.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mump boy » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:45 am

Tuariki wrote:
mump boy wrote:He's only just 17 years old competing in an event that only improves with maturity, he needs to get back in school, stop messing about on youtube and concentrate on winning the olympics in 8 years time.

What's the rush, apart from David Storl no one on the youth to Jnr all time SP list has achieved anything of note as a senior, i'd prefer to see him competing at the 2028 Olympics than the 2012.


Mump - what a "dorky" comment.

Thank God for Bob Mathias you weren't around to stop him displaying his immaturity at, ironically, London in 1948.

And why does he have to wait till 2020 to concentrate on the Olympics. With your standards I guess you would have stopped Usain Bolt as well.

The reality is that Gill is capable of throwing well over 21m this year. Whether he will or not remains to be seen. However, I saw him thow a legal warm up on 4 December 2011 that measured 20.75m. The kid is a complete phenom - even more so than Storl.

And you want him to wait till 2020!!

I for one hope that he smashes Storls junior record at Barcelona and then a few days later goes on to thrown 21m and then hopefully that will convince him to change his mind.


i didn't say he should wait till 2020 to go to the Olympics, i'd be more than happy to see him in Rio but i think it is more likely that he could win in 2020.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mump boy » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:56 am

leoesharkey wrote:The best Juniors youths not making it through to seniors????????

" no one on the youth to Jnr all time SP list has achieved anything of note as a senior, i'd prefer to see him competing at the 2028 Olympics than the 2012."

Matson, Long, Carter, Beyer, Kiselyev, Andrei, Blinoh, Barnes were all top juniors who dominated as seniors, have a look through the all time lists


I did, none of them are on it

http://www.iaaf.org/statistics/toplists ... etail.html

and i wouldn't use Randy Barnes as an example for anything :?
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Jon » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:41 am

That's the list for the junior weight shot (which only became the standard junior implement in the past decade or so). Before then, juniors used the senior weight shot. The all-time list for that implement is here:
http://www.tilastopaja.org/db/toplist.p ... d=0&top=20
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mump boy » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:42 am

Jon wrote:That's the list for the junior weight shot (which only became the standard junior implement in the past decade or so). Before then, juniors used the senior weight shot. The all-time list for that implement is here:
http://www.tilastopaja.org/db/toplist.p ... d=0&top=20


Fair enough but most of the people leoesharkey mentioned aren't on that list either !!
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Tuariki » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:29 pm

leoesharkey wrote:The best Juniors youths not making it through to seniors????????

Matson, Long, Carter, Beyer, Kiselyev, Andrei, Blinoh, Barnes were all top juniors who dominated as seniors, have a look through the all time lists


mump boy wrote:Fair enough but most of the people leoesharkey mentioned aren't on that list either !!


Matson,Carter, Beyer, and Kiselyev are still on the list of the current alltime best juniors. 4 out of 8.

With their high school performances being what they were, I am confident that Long and Barnes were on the list of top juniors back in their days. Andrei I am not sure about although I imagine he probably was as well. Blinoh - I have no idea who this person is.

However,I agree absolutely with mump about Randy Barnes. It is just a pity they can't take away his records and medals.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Rye Catcher » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:18 pm

It would have been nice to see Jacko in the Olympics, but I don't think he would have medaled. What really amazes me is the incompetence of the NZ Olympic committee. One would think a small country like New Zealand would be overjoyed to have a young 17 yr old, who has accomplished the B mark represent them at the games. Are they afraid he will steal the limelight from Adams? How PC is that? In any case 2016 and 2020 will be his banner years.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Pego » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:05 pm

Tuariki wrote:Blinoh - I have no idea who this person is.


I am nearly certain it is Belonog.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mal » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:11 pm

Lot of comments made by people who don't live in NZ, don't understand their culture, and look at it through their puckered personal lens.

When I grew up in Australia, the only reason to go to school past 3 rd year high school was to go to University. The only reason for that was to be a Dr, Lawyer, or some such qualification. The rest went to trades and life.

Not a bad thing when you compare it to the US where too many people go to college, too many take out crippling loans, and there is too little value received.

I hope JG gets everything he points himself at. I suggest the more staid among you just enjoy what he is doing. He seems to be his own man. I am sure he has excellent guidance in NZ who believe he is getting the best out of his personality.

As for the athletic associations, small countries, big countries. The people who run them are all about their own agendas and care little for the athlete. Never been any different.

The crap about no athlete is bigger than the federation - is just that. The federations are unnecessary without the athletes. Especially prodigious talents like this kid. While I appreciate the volunteers who turn up, no came to watch the guy on the wind guage.

I hope this kid gets to the London Olympics. It would be a breath of fresh air around all the prima donnas and welfare athletes.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby derby_county » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:28 pm

Vault-emort wrote: I'm surprised Aths NZL haven't been more encouraging.

I, on the other hand, am not the least bit surprised :roll:

In fact I believe I mentioned to a few people that even though Jacko had apparently met the qualification criteria you could never trust that ANZ would accept that as definite. When they failed to notify ANYONE that this was not definite my cynicism relented, but it turns out I was right all along.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mump boy » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:23 am

Rye Catcher wrote:It would have been nice to see Jacko in the Olympics, but I don't think he would have medaled. What really amazes me is the incompetence of the NZ Olympic committee. One would think a small country like New Zealand would be overjoyed to have a young 17 yr old, who has accomplished the B mark represent them at the games. Are they afraid he will steal the limelight from Adams? How PC is that? In any case 2016 and 2020 will be his banner years.


what does that even mean ??

I would suggest they are concerned for his long term development and health, as any good federation would be
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mump boy » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:25 am

derby_county wrote:
Vault-emort wrote: I'm surprised Aths NZL haven't been more encouraging.

I, on the other hand, am not the least bit surprised :roll:

In fact I believe I mentioned to a few people that even though Jacko had apparently met the qualification criteria you could never trust that ANZ would accept that as definite. When they failed to notify ANYONE that this was not definite my cynicism relented, but it turns out I was right all along.


was anyone else selected in the first round with just 1 B qualifier ? or did they just make an exception for Jacko ?
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby dec7000 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:11 am

Athletics NZ press release:
Initial Track and Field athletes announced for London Olympics

27/03/2012 1:56:00 p.m.

Four athletes were named on Sunday by the New Zealand Olympic Committee as part of an initial athletics team to represent New Zealand at the London Olympic Games. Valerie Adams (shotput), Nick Willis (1500m), Kimberly Smith (marathon) and Stuart Farquhar (javelin) are all in strong contention to contribute to New Zealand’s 100th Olympic medal at London 2012.
Overnight results from Europe means an additional athlete is expected to join this group within days. 50km race walker Quentin Rew from Wellington (27) met the IAAF ‘A’ standard at a race meet in Dudince, Slovakia with a time of 3h 58m 48s. This result was eleven seconds inside the standard. The New Zealand Olympic Committee expects to receive his nomination for selection this week.
Athletics selectors also named an additional group of athletes at the announcement today which includes shot put junior world champion Jacko Gill, Commonwealth Games silver medal winning decathlete Brent Newdick, distance runner Adrian Blincoe and Commonwealth Games 800m and 1500m silver medallist Nikki Hamblin. These athletes have met selection standards while either current form or competition for their single B-category spots in the Olympic team stands in the way of formal selection until the qualification period ends on July 8.
New Zealand Olympic Committee Secretary General and selector Kereyn Smith said she was delighted to have named the first members of the London Olympic athletics team.
“Adams, Willis, Smith and Farquhar are all realistic medal prospects and will contribute to not only New Zealand’s London medal count, but also to New Zealand’s proud athletics history,” she said.
“This morning’s news about Quentin was a great boost and takes us back to Kiwi Norman Read winning gold in the gruelling 50km walk at the 1956 Melbourne Olympic Games.
It’s also fantastic to have such a talented group of athletes in Brent, Nikki, Adrian and Jacko so close to both nomination and selection. We’ll be monitoring their progress as London 2012 approaches,” Smith added.
Adams currently holds the Olympic, World and World Indoor titles and is gunning for a repeat of her Beijing 2008 performance in London. Beijing Silver Medallist Nick Willis is ranked world number seven in the 1500m and is considering a late-season attempt at qualifying for the 5000m. Commonwealth Games silver medallist Stuart Farquhar’s official rankings put him at 17th while Smith, who finished sixth in the New York Marathon last year, sits at 28th on performance alone but is capable of placing much higher.
Rew’s overnight quest to meet the ‘A’ standard saw him finish ninth in the field. He placed 24th at the 2011 Athletics World Championships in Daegu, Korea. Daegu was his first major international meet.
Convenor of Athletics New Zealand selectors Graham O’Brien said it was tough on the athletes who had met selection standards but could not yet be named. “With just one B-category athlete permitted per country, the Athletics NZ selectors did not believe it fair to close off selection with still more than 100 days to games time.”
Both Gill and Newdick are fending off competition for their single B-category spots. Timaru shot putter Tom Walsh is getting close to meeting the selection criteria with his best throw of 18.83m, 1.47m off the standard. Decathlete Scott McLaren remains several hundred points off the selection standard but is committed to staying in the hunt for a spot.
Hamblin and Blincoe, while both meeting IAAF ‘A’ qualification standards, need to prove current form as stipulated New Zealand Olympic Committee selection criteria, developed in conjunction with Athletics New Zealand. Hamblin is recovering from a bursitis injury and Blincoe is awaiting the start of the American season in May.
Rew’s nomination to the New Zealand Olympic Committee would be confirmed and actioned by Athletics NZ as soon as possible.
Athletics NZ also said that in the countdown to the opening of the Olympic Games in London, a number of additional athletes may yet have their names submitted to the New Zealand Olympic Committee.
“There is a strong pool of talent sitting just outside the New Zealand Olympic Committee selection criteria,” said O’Brien. “There’s an exciting race for a spot in women’s heptathlon between Sarah Cowley, Rebecca Wardell and Veronica Torr and there is a chance our women’s 1500m may have an additional entry with Lucy Van Dalen taking the NCAA indoor championships recently.
“Kenya-based Jake Robertson is working hard towards a 5000m spot and hurdler Andrea Miller has recovered from a spinal injury and will be back racing again this month in Europe.”
Athletics is currently New Zealand’s top medal-performing sport having won 20 Olympic medals (nine gold, two silver, nine bronze), including our first medal won at the London Olympic Games in 1908 (Harry Kerr, bronze, 3500m track walk).
Athletics New Zealand selectors will consider the case of athletes who meet the IAAF ‘A’ Standard immediately. The New Zealand Athletics Team for the Olympic Games qualification cut-off date of July 8 2012.

http://www.athletics.org.nz/Article.aspx?ID=8500

Seems fair enough to me provided criteria were known well in advance. Who knows what may happen in the next few months, we might see him in London yet?
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Rye Catcher » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:45 am

"Timaru shot putter Tom Walsh is getting close to meeting the selection criteria with his best throw of 18.83m, 1.47m off the standard."

1.47m is a little under 5 feet, not exactly "getting close to meeting the selection criteria". What are the chances there will be more NZ committee members at London than competing athletes? I know, I know, I know, I know, they are there to support the athletes, wink, wink. Wait til they find out the Brits chased all the hookers off.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Rye Catcher » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:59 am

mump boy wrote:
Rye Catcher wrote:what does that even mean ??

I would suggest they are concerned for his long term development and health, as any good federation would be


Just what everyone wants, a committee to be concerned and tell them what to do. Maybe he wants to do nothing more than make a big splash as a 17 year old, come back home and get a great education as a doctor and help people. How would the committee feel about that?

As you may have gleaned, I don't care much for committees. Life is simple, set the qualifying mark, if you make it, you go, if you don't, stay home. Kissing some committee member's butt not required.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby bushop » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:21 am

Pen pushers don't give a toss about Gill
by Chris Rattue 5:30 AM Wednesday Apr 4, 2012
"The 17-year-old Gill had qualified more than well enough for the London Games, and there was absolutely no downside to him going. He should have been backed to the hilt but instead, as his father Walter said, ANZ blundered and left the young athlete "gutted", no doubt by many things including the lack of respect and faith."
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby gibson » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:44 am

just can't let this one go.

gill putted last year 20.36 meters at 17 years.
:mrgreen: and silver last games olympics went @ 21.09.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics

any reasonable idiot can see there is a "shot" for gill at age 18 for a medal.
as he's been advancing what? a meter or two every year?
which is not to say he's a betting favorite to do so.

like a good referee, athletics new zealand should not be noticed, they are not part of the sport. they are just there to do the little things to make it happen for the athletes and the fans of the sport.

below find gills rap sheet...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacko_Gill
^ "2010 World Junior Championships in Athletics: Men's shot put (final)". IAAF. Retrieved 2010-07-21.
^ "Kiwi wins gold at world junior athletics championships". Fairfax New Zealand Limited. 21 July 2010. Retrieved 2010-07-21.
^ IAAF Youth All-time Shot Put list
^ McMurran, Alistair (28 March 2011). "Athletics: Gill adds to shot put world record collection". Otago Daily Times. Retrieved 6 October 2011.
^ IAAF Junior All-time Shot Put list
^ a b "Athletics: Jacko's massive throw an absolute thriller". nzherald. Retrieved 2011-04-24.
^ Woodcock, Fred (8 July 2011). "Jacko Gill sets sight on London Olympics medal". Stuff.co.nz. Retrieved 6 October 2011.
^ IAAF: QUALIFICATION SYSTEM – GAMES OF THE XXX OLYMPIAD
^ 2012 Olympic Games - London: Selection Criteria
^ "Athletics: Gill grabs Olympics qualifier". nzherald. Retrieved 2011-12-05.
^ "Teen sets record, attains Olympic standard". stuff.co.nz. Retrieved 2011-12-05.
^ ,IAAF World Youth Championships: Boys Shot Put Final - Gill beyond 24m, three times!
^ "Athletics: NZ shot putter Jacko Gill breaks world record". nzherald. Retrieved 2011-12-25.
^ Circle-this-name "Jacko Gill: Circle this name". Sunday Star Times. 20 December 2009. Retrieved 2010-07-2
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Flumpy » Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:53 am

bushop wrote:Pen pushers don't give a toss about Gill
by Chris Rattue 5:30 AM Wednesday Apr 4, 2012
"The 17-year-old Gill had qualified more than well enough for the London Games, and there was absolutely no downside to him going. He should have been backed to the hilt but instead, as his father Walter said, ANZ blundered and left the young athlete "gutted", no doubt by many things including the lack of respect and faith."


This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?

He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

It's only the first week of April. How many people know for certain yet that they will be competing at the Olympics(Especially with only a B standard)? Most won't know for about 3 months.

If he's this much of a diva at age 17 who know what he'll be like as an adult.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Dave » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:11 am

Flumpy wrote:
bushop wrote:Pen pushers don't give a toss about Gill
by Chris Rattue 5:30 AM Wednesday Apr 4, 2012
"The 17-year-old Gill had qualified more than well enough for the London Games, and there was absolutely no downside to him going. He should have been backed to the hilt but instead, as his father Walter said, ANZ blundered and left the young athlete "gutted", no doubt by many things including the lack of respect and faith."


This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?

He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

It's only the first week of April. How many people know for certain yet that they will be competing at the Olympics(Especially with only a B standard)? Most won't know for about 3 months.

If he's this much of a diva at age 17 who know what he'll be like as an adult.


He is 17. He has physical maturity that far outstrips his age. Perhaps we can cut him some slack that his emotional maturity may not be quite so far ahead of his age.

Most 17 year olds do grow up. They don't all do it at 17.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Marlow » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:12 am

Flumpy wrote:This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?
He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

Yet . . . on the other hand . . . they've got a real live T&F PHENOM on their hands and now they're getting negative press over it. Why not just make a great PR gesture and name him on the first ballot just for the feel-good PR? If he goes, medal or no (odds still long against it), he is still a great story for NZ.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Dave » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:38 pm

Marlow wrote:
Flumpy wrote:This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?
He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

Yet . . . on the other hand . . . they've got a real live T&F PHENOM on their hands and now they're getting negative press over it. Why not just make a great PR gesture and name him on the first ballot just for the feel-good PR? If he goes, medal or no (odds still long against it), he is still a great story for NZ.


Plus, if it doesn't go well, then get gets a good deal of experience that will make him all the more formidable in 4 years.
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