Junior Shot Put '13 [Bukowiecki 22.24 WYBi]


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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby bushop » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:36 am

mal wrote:
user4 wrote:
mal wrote:The only people who ever knew Carter was a field guy are here on this forum. No one really cares about junior performances. Except the numbers freaks. And I know its important to you all in some measure, but its like the thread on wind, altitude and basic times.
hey mal adjusted wind and altitude and basic times along with a watch and yard stick are the heart and lungs of measuring in this sport!
... and circumstances often mysterious.

As are the reasons you're posting on this thread.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:50 pm

user4 wrote:
mal wrote:The only people who ever knew Carter was a field guy are here on this forum.
Everyone else knows him as NFL Footballer.

No one really cares about junior performances. Except the numbers freaks.

Even though he medaled at the Olympics, he still stepped away from the sport before he showed his final capabilities.

And I know its important to you all in some measure, but its like the thread on wind, altitude and basic times.


hey mal adjusted wind and altitude and basic times along with a watch and yard stick are the heart and lungs of measuring in this sport!


mal, your last sentence does nothing to establish much credibility. Your position is essentially the unsupportable contention that 2.0 mps wind gives no advantage and 2.01 is completely unreasonable. Physics provides us with (essentially) continuous variables that can often be readily modeled.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby mal » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:05 pm

26mi235 wrote:
user4 wrote:
mal wrote:The only people who ever knew Carter was a field guy are here on this forum.
Everyone else knows him as NFL Footballer.

No one really cares about junior performances. Except the numbers freaks.

Even though he medaled at the Olympics, he still stepped away from the sport before he showed his final capabilities.

And I know its important to you all in some measure, but its like the thread on wind, altitude and basic times.


hey mal adjusted wind and altitude and basic times along with a watch and yard stick are the heart and lungs of measuring in this sport!


mal, your last sentence does nothing to establish much credibility. Your position is essentially the unsupportable contention that 2.0 mps wind gives no advantage and 2.01 is completely unreasonable. Physics provides us with (essentially) continuous variables that can often be readily modeled.


I needed to be more clear.

Of course wind and altitude are important. My comment was around the endless arguments that someone in 1936 was a better athlete than another in 1976, because of an adjustment to altitude ,track surfaces, etc. All important of course, but the discussion is meaningless in my opinion.

My contention is that conditions are what they are. At the end of life your times and distance rank you in the book. The verbal gymnastics to explain the time would have been faster if... is nonsense in my opinion.

Of course wind is important. And surfaces. I didn't explain myself well enough. My apologies.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:40 pm

mal wrote:Of course wind and altitude are important. My comment was around the endless arguments that someone in 1936 was a better athlete than another in 1976, because of an adjustment to altitude, track surfaces, etc. All important of course, but the discussion is meaningless in my opinion.

We agree a lot here.

My contention is that conditions are what they are. At the end of life your times and distance rank you in the book. The verbal gymnastics to explain the time would have been faster if... is nonsense in my opinion.


Less so here, but not as much as the prior posts, for sure.
Of course wind is important. And surfaces. I didn't explain myself well enough. My apologies.

and again agree here.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Putters '13

Postby bushop » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:04 pm

Jacko Gill via Facebook wrote:Jacko Gill Oct 30
New close grip Bench Press P.B of 221kg! Pretty happy after being far from full health these last couple of months
221kg equals 487 lbs
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Re: Junior Male Shot Putters '13

Postby bushop » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:25 pm

rumor:
Anon7972 via MacThrows message board wrote:Nov 14
apparently jacko gill threw 21.22m [69' 7"] today in training with the 16lb
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby leoesharkey » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:30 am

Let's wait and see competition marks, but yes with 23.00 on the 6kg and a 221kg NG BP sure it's possible, but let's see it in a meet before commenting. Which I do hope to see him do soon. :)
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby Marlow » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:17 am

Talk about soul-crushing expectations, if he doesn't throw 70' this year (2014), will he be considered a bust? :shock:
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby bushop » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:00 am

If Gill did go 21.22m in training I'd think anything 20m-high equals success.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby Marlow » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:54 am

bushop wrote:If Gill did go 21.22m in training I'd think anything 20m-high equals success.

How ya figger? 21.22 now only ramps up the 22m expectations!
This is where the shoulda/coulda/wouldas tell us how easy 22m would be for him. (Just look at the Mary Cain wacko threads and you'll see what I mean.) :roll:
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby bushop » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:16 pm

Marlow wrote:
bushop wrote:If Gill did go 21.22m in training I'd think anything 20m-high equals success.
How ya figger? 21.22 now only ramps up the 22m expectations! This is where the shoulda/coulda/wouldas tell us how easy 22m would be for him. (Just look at the Mary Cain wacko threads and you'll see what I mean.) :roll:

: ) If Gill was a glider I'd think a bit different.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby norunner » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:16 pm

In an interview earlier this year David Storl mentioned that he threw over 22m regularly in training, he then added that he never actually managed to STAY in the ring for any of those. So i really wouldn't put too much weight on training throws.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby Sasuke » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:30 am

norunner wrote:In an interview earlier this year David Storl mentioned that he threw over 22m regularly in training, he then added that he never actually managed to STAY in the ring for any of those. So i really wouldn't put too much weight on training throws.


Indeed; in Moscow he had some huge throws (22+) for sure, but he fouled all the longest one . From Gill's videos I often noticed he is used to fouling very often so... the potential is there for sure, but we had better not have too many expectations.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby bushop » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:25 am

Sasuke wrote:
norunner wrote:In an interview earlier this year David Storl mentioned that he threw over 22m regularly in training, he then added that he never actually managed to STAY in the ring for any of those. So i really wouldn't put too much weight on training throws.
Indeed; in Moscow he had some huge throws (22+) for sure, but he fouled all the longest one . From Gill's videos I often noticed he is used to fouling very often so... the potential is there for sure, but we had better not have too many expectations.

Some of Gill's recent training videos show him staying in. Seems like he's made it a priority to stay in the ring in training.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby Sasuke » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:41 am

bushop wrote:
Sasuke wrote:
norunner wrote:In an interview earlier this year David Storl mentioned that he threw over 22m regularly in training, he then added that he never actually managed to STAY in the ring for any of those. So i really wouldn't put too much weight on training throws.
Indeed; in Moscow he had some huge throws (22+) for sure, but he fouled all the longest one . From Gill's videos I often noticed he is used to fouling very often so... the potential is there for sure, but we had better not have too many expectations.

Some of Gill's recent training videos show him staying in. Seems like he's made it a priority to stay in the ring in training.


Very good news. Jacko is a huge talent, and I am looking forward to seeing him throwing 21+.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby derby_county » Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:51 pm

bushop wrote:Some of Gill's recent training videos show him staying in. Seems like he's made it a priority to stay in the ring in training.


In his training yesterday he was making every effort to stay in, even though it was raining. Hopefully he will be competing in the next few weeks, it would be nice to have a 21m+ out of the way before his 19th birthday! :D
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:05 pm

This is an area where thin youth competition are potentially a problem because you can be good enough to do a real easy safety throw and always get five other attempts. Does not work so well at the World level, and the US athletes are not the best at this aspect.
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Re: Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [Gill's clock winding down]

Postby bushop » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:45 pm

@JackoGill via Twitter wrote: Nov 26
Tried to test my vertical by jumping alongside a wall ... Jumped into the wall managing to scrape my arm on a screw
bloody arm photo

Re. New Zealand's new WJC standards.
Jacko Gill via Facebook wrote:Jacko Gill Nov 29
There are many reasons why these standards should be changed, but I'm sure most of them have already been mentioned previously. One personal reason is back in 2010 the standards in the Shot Put were 18.00M and 18.30M (Now they are 18.85M and 19.55M). If these new standards were in place in 2010 I would have most likely not qualified. My Personal Best until the very last chance at qualifying (Nationals 2010) was 18.30 Metres (1.25M below the A standard). With those daunting expectations I would have most likely not thrown the WJ weight shot at nationals, as I would have seen it as impossible ground to make up. With the lower standards I did qualify and I then went on to win those World Juniors by 50cm. By giving athletes a chance and a little hope, you will keep them in the sport. Athletes need experience in major competitions like WJ’s to make it to the top. They cannot be expected to suddenly make Olympic standards with no major competitions/stepping stones on their path to making the best possible athletes out of themselves. If I had not made WJ’s in 2010, which I most likely wouldn’t have with the current standards, I may have pursued another career. Keep athletes in our sport and let them experience WJ’s, they are the first step in an international career.
Last edited by bushop on Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby derby_county » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:19 pm

Jacko has just lost his NZ record to Tom Walsh (20.45 in Melbourne). Hopefully that will tempt him into a competition next week! :)
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby Sasuke » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:46 am

derby_county wrote:Jacko has just lost his NZ record to Tom Walsh (20.45 in Melbourne). Hopefully that will tempt him into a competition next week! :)


I hope so... Jacko is very attracted by records... and it's a huge shame he competes so little! I think he could throw about 21 metres if he found the right competition and managed to stay in the circle.
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Re: Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [Gill's clock winding down]

Postby bushop » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:00 am

One wonders if Gill sees Carter and Barnes' 7kg age-group marks as out of reach and has decided better to not chase than to fail.

Shot Put (7.26kg)
13 yr : 12.16m (39'10") Teijo Kööpikkä (FIN) ...... August 24, 1994
14 yr : 14.28m (46'10") Glenn DiGiorgio (USA) ... 1999
15 yr : 18.57m (60'11") Jacko Gill (NZL) .............. October 16, 2010
16 yr : 20.38m (66'10") Jacko Gill (NZL) .............. December 5, 2011
17 yr : 20.38m (66'10") Jacko Gill (NZL) .............. December 5, 2011
18 yr : 20.65m (67' 9") Mike Carter (USA) ............ July 4th, 1979
19 yr : 21.88m (71' 9") Randy Barnes (USA) ........ April 18, 1986

<INTERNATIONAL AGE RECORDS>
• best performances from 48 countries
Last edited by bushop on Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby bushop » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:18 am

Training is going full-bore in SoCal for high schooler Stamatia Scarvelis (Dos Pueblos HS '14).

Oct 21 Stamatia Scarvelis 53' 9" Westmont College Workout
Nov 16 Stamatia 55' shot workout
Nov 22 Stamatia 49' with 10 lb Shot
Dec 06 Stamatia 55'7" Shotput Practice PR
Kent Pagel via YouTube wrote: Dec 06, 2013
...About one more month and we're done fiddling with the technique and go with what's there for the season.
Interesting to see how early they switch from technique to explosive/ rhythm work... early-January for a summer championship meets.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby Marlow » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:39 am

bushop wrote:Training is going full-bore in SoCal for high schooler Stamatia Scarvelis (Dos Pueblos HS '14).
Dec 06 Stamatia 55'7" Shotput Practice PR

Her forward-falling reverse (aka foul) is adding several feet to the throw. Can she go 55' in June w/o fouling? Big question. I'm not sure I'm much of a fan of fouling so much in practice. It may increase the confidence to throw far, but it is practicing (perfecting) something that will NOT help her later. That follow-through is nothing like a real (fair) one.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby bushop » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:54 pm

Marlow wrote:Her forward-falling reverse (aka foul) is adding several feet to the throw. Can she go 55' in June w/o fouling? Big question. I'm not sure I'm much of a fan of fouling so much in practice. It may increase the confidence to throw far, but it is practicing (perfecting) something that will NOT help her later. That follow-through is nothing like a real (fair) one.

Amen

Some disagree with us...
Randy Barnes training video(s) Fallbrook, CA (1990) (Improved Gamma)
Ali McKnight Noon via Facebook wrote:Aug 06
Who's grubby mitt keeps waving in front of the camera?
Randy Barnes via Facebook wrote:Aug 06
[Brent Noon] the one and only.. ;)) I loved it when he would giggle, then you knew it was a big throw! If he waved a lot, we had a good day. Watching now, I'm not sure why we didn't just speak the distance into the mic?? ;)) more dramatic this way, I guess??
Brent Noon via Facebook wrote: Aug 06
He would sometimes waive the number of fingers in front, 4 for 74, 5 for 75! LOL! It is a complex system!
Randy Barnes via Facebook wrote: Oct 28
Last throw was 75'9".. Brent will have to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this was one of our first workouts into the 5 weeks leading up to the outdoor WR
Anthony Wilks via Facebook wrote: Oct 28
Hard to contain that much power in such a small circle
Brian Oldfield via Facebook wrote: Oct 28
I like your left side out of the back and it being repeated at he front . Excellent posture and balance utilizing pull / acceleration through the entire circle.
Brian Oldfield via Facebook wrote: Oct 28
You can actually see you get the plyometric pivot and lift on your best throws.
Norm Zylstra via Facebook wrote: Dec 03
How often did you work on staying in the ring during training?
Randy Barnes via Facebook wrote: Aug 06
Norm, the short answer is never. Practices were more for free form exploration of the full range of movements, positions and speed. Test the limits or boundaries of each through trial and error. Practice attempts were more like technical experiments. If I'd worried about saving each one, it would have severely impeded the whole discovery process.
Eric Rickman via Facebook wrote: Aug 06
Very interesting take. Never thought of it that way! I love it!
John Paul via Facebook wrote: Aug 06
Come on Norm! Can't develop demons at the toe board watch the video!
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby AS » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:19 am

derby_county wrote:Jacko has just lost his NZ record to Tom Walsh (20.45 in Melbourne). Hopefully that will tempt him into a competition next week! :)


And Tom Walsh just pushed that record out further - he threw 20.61m at the Zatopek meeting in Melbourne tonight.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby Sasuke » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:22 am

AS wrote:
derby_county wrote:Jacko has just lost his NZ record to Tom Walsh (20.45 in Melbourne). Hopefully that will tempt him into a competition next week! :)


And Tom Walsh just pushed that record out further - he threw 20.61m at the Zatopek meeting in Melbourne tonight.


Great! He has been improving greatly in the recent days! However, I wonder why Jacko competes so rarely! I hope to see him throwing in the next days, but I doubt we will see him.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [Gill's clock winding down]

Postby mal » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:02 am

Makes you wonder if Jacko would just like to join the circus as a strongman.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [Gill's clock winding down]

Postby Daisy » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:22 am

It worked for Geoff Capes.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13

Postby derby_county » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:00 pm

Sasuke wrote: I hope to see him throwing in the next days, but I doubt we will see him.


We won't, not in the next few days anyway!
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [Gill's clock winding down]

Postby Gabriella » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:42 am

mal wrote:Makes you wonder if Jacko would just like to join the circus as a strongman.


This ^^
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [Gill's clock winding down]

Postby derby_county » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:16 pm

So Mike Carter's 20.65 at 18 survives! A bit surprising that Jacko decided to let one go...I guess the next target is 21+ at 19...which won't take long by the look of his training at the moment...
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [Gill's clock winding down]

Postby norunner » Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:53 am

derby_county wrote:So Mike Carter's 20.65 at 18 survives! A bit surprising that Jacko decided to let one go...I guess the next target is 21+ at 19...which won't take long by the look of his training at the moment...
Did he ever actually mention any of those marks? His next target should be winning senior championships, because that's what matters. And to do that he needs to actually compete internationally, not just train all year and occasionally throw at some tiny local meets.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [Gill's clock winding down]

Postby Marlow » Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:17 am

norunner wrote:His next target should be winning senior championships, because that's what matters.

I've always had the distinct impression that he was more enamored with records than championships.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [Gill's clock winding down]

Postby bushop » Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:31 am

Marlow wrote:
norunner wrote:His next target should be winning senior championships, because that's what matters.
I've always had the distinct impression that he was more enamored with records than championships.

That happens when one is so far ahead of one's peers championships are almost meaningless in the short term. The only thing left to chase is history.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [Gill's clock winding down]

Postby Marlow » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:14 am

bushop wrote:The only thing left to chase is history.

I guess I'm one of those weird fans who values records over titles. If you have an Olympic Gold, you were the best in the world ON THAT DAY. A World Record means you were the BEST EVER in a very 'real' way. The achievements of the Roger Bannisters, Ron Clarks, Paula Radcliffes, etc., eclipse the Peter Erengs and Hasley Crawfords of the world (no offense to them!).
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [Gill's clock winding down]

Postby br » Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:15 am

Marlow wrote:The achievements of the Roger Bannisters, Ron Clarks, Paula Radcliffes, etc., eclipse the Peter Erengs and Hasley Crawfords of the world (no offense to them!).

Paul Ereng. Possibly thinking of Peter Rono?
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [Gill's clock winding down]

Postby norunner » Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:22 pm

Marlow wrote:
bushop wrote:The only thing left to chase is history.

I guess I'm one of those weird fans who values records over titles. If you have an Olympic Gold, you were the best in the world ON THAT DAY. A World Record means you were the BEST EVER in a very 'real' way. The achievements of the Roger Bannisters, Ron Clarks, Paula Radcliffes, etc., eclipse the Peter Erengs and Hasley Crawfords of the world (no offense to them!).
Yeah, world records, but not any record. Being the best 19 year old ever isn't worth more than a world championship and since 2014 will be his first senior year he ran out of international records to chase, i doubt he will get close to the WR any time soon. And even breaking a world record doesn't mean you were the best ever, it might just mean you were lucky. Look at Jürgen Schult, he was VERY lucky on that day, his next best throw that year was around 67m and he only threw 70m twice during his career. I don't think there is anyone around who would call him the best ever.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [Gill's clock winding down]

Postby Marlow » Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:05 pm

br wrote:
Marlow wrote:The achievements of the Roger Bannisters, Ron Clarks, Paula Radcliffes, etc., eclipse the Peter Erengs and Hasley Crawfords of the world (no offense to them!).

Paul Ereng. Possibly thinking of Peter Rono?

I think you just made my point. Paul Ereng won the 1988 800 Olympic Gold Medal.
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Please, pretty please start new thread.

Postby GHM » Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:21 pm

Marlow wrote:
br wrote:
Marlow wrote:The achievements of the Roger Bannisters, Ron Clarks, Paula Radcliffes, etc., eclipse the Peter Erengs and Hasley Crawfords of the world (no offense to them!).

Paul Ereng. Possibly thinking of Peter Rono?

I think you just made my point. Paul Ereng won the 1988 800 Olympic Gold Medal.


Please remove this thread for the love of God and 2014 present to all of us. From young talent in SP we manage to discuss about 1988 Olympics 800m winner!

Please, pretty please start new thread. I really want to know how this young man is doing in New Zealand.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [Gill's clock winding down]

Postby bushop » Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:14 pm

Marlow wrote:
bushop wrote:The only thing left to chase is history.
I guess I'm one of those weird fans who values records over titles.

Which title did he miss out on during his pursuit of records?
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