Junior Shot Put '13 [Bukowiecki 22.24 WYBi]


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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby leoesharkey » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:53 am

One country out of two hundred and twenty throws with a 12lb shot, I think every other country in the world is using the Metric system.

I grew up with both and always enjoyed using metric to annoy older people and imperial to annoy younger people. Sad but how chidlish as I LOL. Seriously the whole concept of beating records in the old system just doesn't register anywhere in the world.

What's the US record with the 14lb shot?

it must be in the mid fifties in feet it's been so long since anyone has thrown it competitively.

Ralph Rose, not the greatest shotputter ever, but the greatest all round thrower without doubt once owned every world record for men in the Shot with the 8lb up to the 56lb, that was back when shotputting was real fun ! Imagine turning up at a meet where there is a 8lb shot, 22lb shot and 56lb shot that would be very challenging ! :)
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby leoesharkey » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:57 am

I think Jacko will improve on his 23.00m and will throw a little farther than 20.65 m this yeas, maybe 23.20 and 20.75. He is great for the sport and the previous WJR holder will improve a lot too I think, he appears to have lost muscle but improved his technique a lot. When Storl is fully recovered from injuries I think we will see big meet throws from him! :D
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby derby_county » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:00 pm

As I expected Jacko is no longer concerned with the junior weights and will be focusing on the senior shot from now on. http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-spor ... to-step-up
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby Tuariki » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:48 am

While I understand that Jacko's training will now focus solely on the 7.26kg I will not be surprised to see him competing in the last 2 weeks before his 19th birthday with both the 7.26kg and the 6kg.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby bushop » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:05 am

Tuariki wrote:While I understand that Jacko's training will now focus solely on the 7.26kg I will not be surprised to see him competing in the last 2 weeks before his 19th birthday with both the 7.26kg and the 6kg.

But what about the 12 pound ball?
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby Tuariki » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:07 am

bushop wrote:
Tuariki wrote:While I understand that Jacko's training will now focus solely on the 7.26kg I will not be surprised to see him competing in the last 2 weeks before his 19th birthday with both the 7.26kg and the 6kg.

But what about the 12 pound ball?

Who knows? I am sure Jacko would love to throw past 24.77 with that weight but given it is specifically a US High School "thing" and not an age group record may make any attempt irrelevant.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby Marlow » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:19 pm

Tuariki wrote:it is specifically a US High School "thing" and not an age group record may make any attempt irrelevant.

Out-throwing Carter at the same age irrelevant? I think not.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby bushop » Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:47 pm

Marlow wrote:
Tuariki wrote:it is specifically a US High School "thing" and not an age group record may make any attempt irrelevant.
Out-throwing Carter at the same age irrelevant? I think not.

Carter's 24.78m (81' 3½") with the 5.44kg ball is the U18 5kg record.
While it originates as a US High School "thing" it is also one of the, if not the, best U20 putting of the shot ever.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:27 pm

It is also my impression that when they do the multiple weight competitions, the pros have a hard time coming close to Carter's mark with the lighter balls; can someone with more background/data comment?
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby MDelano » Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:08 pm

I have this example from on old magazine in the 80s:
Edward Sarul (World champion 1983) training Shot PRs:
4kg: 29.03m
5kg: 25.58m
6kg: 23.44m
7.26kg: 22.03m
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby Tuariki » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:15 pm

bushop wrote:
Marlow wrote:
Tuariki wrote:it is specifically a US High School "thing" and not an age group record may make any attempt irrelevant.
Out-throwing Carter at the same age irrelevant? I think not.

Carter's 24.78m (81' 3½") with the 5.44kg ball is the U18 5kg record.
While it originates as a US High School "thing" it is also one of the, if not the, best U20 putting of the shot ever.

Carter was 18 years 230 days when he threw his 24.77m with the 5.44kg - so it is not the USA under 18 record for the 5kg. That record is held by Ryan Crouser at 21.56.

Carter's 24.77 at 18y 228d was an incredible performance. However, IMO, Jacko's 24.45m with the 5kg at the age of 16y-364d is the better performance.

The lack of relevance is because no country in the world throws the 5.44kg except the USA. Presumably that means it is extremely difficult to even get a hold of a 5.44kg shot.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby rainy.here » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:21 pm

Tuariki wrote:
The lack of relevance is because no country in the world throws the 5.44kg except the USA. Presumably that means it is extremely difficult to even get a hold of a 5.44kg shot.


Canadian high school boys throw the 12lb also.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby Tuariki » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:26 pm

rainy.here wrote:
Tuariki wrote:
The lack of relevance is because no country in the world throws the 5.44kg except the USA. Presumably that means it is extremely difficult to even get a hold of a 5.44kg shot.


Canadian high school boys throw the 12lb also.

Canada needs to break the apron strings and join the rest of the world :lol:
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby user4 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:08 am

Tuariki wrote:
rainy.here wrote:
Tuariki wrote:
The lack of relevance is because no country in the world throws the 5.44kg except the USA. Presumably that means it is extremely difficult to even get a hold of a 5.44kg shot.


Canadian high school boys throw the 12lb also.

Canada needs to break the apron strings and join the rest of the world :lol:


I didnt know that the Queen with her strings sanctioned the 12lber.
Last edited by user4 on Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby bushop » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:29 am

Tuariki wrote:Canada needs to break the apron strings and join the rest of the world :lol:

I wish the US wold go to the 5kg and 6kg balls, and the 1.5kg and 1.75kg discus for the boys... and 3kg shot put for the U17 girls.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby gh » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:53 am

with (by far) the largest installed base of existing HS implements, you really think that thousands of schools should be replacing things that probably can't be replaced at many because of budgetary constraints? Just so it dovetails with an international world which 99.99999% of them will never have any contact?
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby bushop » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:04 am

gh wrote:With (by far) the largest installed base of existing HS implements, you really think that thousands of schools should be replacing things that probably can't be replaced at many because of budgetary constraints? Just so it dovetails with an international world which 99.99999% of them will never have any contact?

To me, it's about participation, not international conformity.
Sure, but what if the US at least went to the light balls for 9th and 10th graders? 4kg (boys) and 3kg (girls). One has to replace the shots every once in a while. I think we lose young throwers because they have to deal with such heavy balls. Throwing a lighter ball U17 would keep more throwers in our sport.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby Rye Catcher » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:15 am

In California High schools in the 50s, the varsity throwers threw the 12 lb shot, the "B" (smaller kids) threw the 10 lb shot and the "C" (smallest kids) threw the 8 lb shot. This was regardless of which grade they were in.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby Per Andersen » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:02 pm

Tuariki wrote:

Canada needs to break the apron strings and join the rest of the world :lol:

They already have. Canadian youths 16/17 throw the 5kg and Juniors throw the 6kg.
The 12lbs is only used in high school meets, a few meets in a 2 month season. These result are meaningless outside the schools and do not show up on Athletics Canada lists.

I agree, I don't see why Gill at this point should be too concerned with the US high school record, no matter how impressive that record might be.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby gm » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:22 pm

Per Andersen wrote:
Tuariki wrote:I agree, I don't see why Gill at this point should be too concerned with the US high school record, no matter how impressive that record might be.


And that's exactly how I feel when I read about Gill's exploits with the 5kg and 6kg shots... yawn. They don't mean anything to me.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby TeWaio » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:45 am

I think, like a lot of debates, this one can be summed up visually:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... system.png
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby bushop » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:06 pm

Tuariki wrote:
bushop wrote:
Marlow wrote:
Tuariki wrote:it is specifically a US High School "thing" and not an age group record may make any attempt irrelevant.
Out-throwing Carter at the same age irrelevant? I think not.

Carter's 24.78m (81' 3½") with the 5.44kg ball is the U18 5kg record.
While it originates as a US High School "thing" it is also one of the, if not the, best U20 putting of the shot ever.
Carter was 18 years 230 days when he threw his 24.77m with the 5.44kg - so it is not the USA under 18 record for the 5kg. That record is held by Ryan Crouser at 21.56.

To much feet and inches has flipped my brain... I meant U19. I guess it's just the age-18 record.
<http://age-records.125mb.com/>
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby bushop » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:09 pm

Tuariki wrote:Carter's 24.77 at 18y 228d was an incredible performance. However, IMO, Jacko's 24.45m with the 5kg at the age of 16y-364d is the better performance.

Fair point.

Tuariki wrote:The lack of relevance is because no country in the world throws the 5.44kg except the USA. Presumably that means it is extremely difficult to even get a hold of a 5.44kg shot.

Agreed. But I'm sure there are plenty of folks who would mail him a couple.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby derby_county » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:10 pm

Jacko won't compete again until December. 12lb not being considered.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby bushop » Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:48 am

derby_county wrote:Jacko won't compete again until December. 12lb not being considered.

When is the traditional New Zealand track & field season?
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby derby_county » Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:03 pm

bushop wrote:
derby_county wrote:Jacko won't compete again until December. 12lb not being considered.

When is the traditional New Zealand track & field season?


October to March (but October is a lot quieter than it used to be).
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby TeWaio » Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:34 am

derby_county wrote:Jacko won't compete again until December. 12lb not being considered.


All that training for so few competitions, I'd go insane if I were him! Seems to work though.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby derby_county » Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:15 pm

TeWaio wrote:
derby_county wrote:Jacko won't compete again until December. 12lb not being considered.


All that training for so few competitions, I'd go insane if I were him! Seems to work though.


He seems to enjoy the training...and working on his chilli collection.

He's actually the opposite of our other top shot putter! Tom Walsh competed on average every second week for the first half of the year...maybe if he breaks Jacko's NZ record Jacko might be tempted out earlier! :)
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby TeWaio » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:30 am

Another change of coach for Jacko, Les Mills for Courtney Ireland, who had moved to Singapore and will remain as a video consultant.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=11128226
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby mal » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:36 am

gm wrote:
Per Andersen wrote:
Tuariki wrote:I agree, I don't see why Gill at this point should be too concerned with the US high school record, no matter how impressive that record might be.


And that's exactly how I feel when I read about Gill's exploits with the 5kg and 6kg shots... yawn. They don't mean anything to me.


So you don't appreciate his talent and results? Why are you on this site?

As for the US high school record, Jacko Gill doesn't live in the US, doesn't go to school here. So no matter what he throws, the record won't change.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby Marlow » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:50 am

mal wrote:As for the US high school record, Jacko Gill doesn't live in the US, doesn't go to school here. So no matter what he throws, the record won't change.

Not really true. Carter is a demi-god because of his 81'
If Jacko can throw the 12#er farther at the same age, he also enters the pantheon of GOATs. Amis like myself (and most others here, I imagine), will bestow upon him the accolades he probably already deserves, but the 5 and 6kg balls means nothing to us, so until he throws the 12 and 16 a 'HS'/Jr record, he's just a 'phenom'.
Right now, he in not the equal of Carter or Albritton (21.05 with 16, but lesser known because it was indoors, but equally semi-divine).
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby bushop » Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:01 pm

Marlow wrote:... but the 5kg and 6kg balls means nothing to us

Who is "us"?
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:29 pm

If he does not throw 81+ as a junior he will never be clearly the best junior thrower of all time. That requires him to throw the same implement; I take is disinclination to do so to be a measure of the degree to which he is not quite there. He is such a publicity hound that if he could do it he would...
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby puddys12 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:44 pm

Since you have a problem calling the 12lb ball . Lets just call it the 5.44kg ball and lets see if he can throw it 81 plus . I agree he is so much a publicity hound , videos on you tube working out and his throws I cant believe he would not want to rub it in the US face that see I can throw the 5.44kg ball father than Carter . Gill is all about records and yes it is U S record but I have a hard time believing he has not secretly thrown it to see if he could throw 81 plus ..
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby Marlow » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:51 am

bushop wrote:
Marlow wrote:... but the 5kg and 6kg balls means nothing to us

Who is "us"?

The VAST majority of T&FN's readership.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby norunner » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:06 am

26mi235 wrote:If he does not throw 81+ as a junior he will never be clearly the best junior thrower of all time. That requires him to throw the same implement; I take is disinclination to do so to be a measure of the degree to which he is not quite there. He is such a publicity hound that if he could do it he would...
You are making a lot of assumptions. Does he want to be the best of all time? Is there such a thing? Even if he used american implements he would still not be on equal ground because Carter/Albritton used them all the time, which Gill doesn't. Did Carter throw 81 all the time? "Discinclination" implies he does not want to use american implements, but maybe he simply doesn't give a s*it ?
It's presumptuous to expect the rest of the world to care about american records.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby Marlow » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:09 am

norunner wrote:It's presumptuous to expect the rest of the world to care about american records.

As pointed out above, Jacko sure seems to care a lot about records and his image. Does he want to be the GOAT? You can count on it. This is step 1.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby norunner » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:35 am

Marlow wrote:
norunner wrote:It's presumptuous to expect the rest of the world to care about american records.

As pointed out above, Jacko sure seems to care a lot about records and his image. Does he want to be the GOAT? You can count on it. This is step 1.
Yeah, world records, not american ones. Did he ever once mention Carter/Albritton? All i ever saw him mention was Storl's JWR. And by your logic to be GOAT you have to be great as a junior which i guess disqualifies a lot of greats. Did Michael Johnson even run 400m as a junior? If Gill breaks the WR, wins olympic gold medals, WCs etc, nobody (except for a few americans) will care at all about some american junior records that he dared to ignore.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby bushop » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:42 am

Marlow wrote:
norunner wrote:It's presumptuous to expect the rest of the world to care about american records.
As pointed out above, Jacko sure seems to care a lot about records and his image. Does he want to be the GOAT? You can count on it. This is step 1.

I'm not saying Carter's not the GOAT, but I would think honors won (not many opportunities for Carter here) and 2-3 year window of successes would be a step ahead of Carter's one-off throw when it comes to naming a GOAT. If I remember correctly, Carter's 2nd best throw was a touch over 77'.

I also think that throw comparable to 81' with a 5kg or 6kg ball would hold water, IMO Gill just hasn't made one yet.
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Re: Junior Shot Put '13 [WJR by Gill 75' 5½" 23m]

Postby Marlow » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:19 am

norunner wrote: by your logic to be GOAT you have to be great as a junior

No, I meant the Junior GOAT, but that would be a positive step towards THE GOAT. The number of greats who dominated both the Jr and Sr scene is very, very small, and deserves special mention. If Jacko breaks the 5/6 kg records and also the 12/16 records he'll be in very rarefied air, air that I think he very much wants to breathe (unsuccessful metaphor alert!).
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