shotputter wrote:Jacko in London, now that would be super exciting, even if he doesn't place well, he would still be a 17-year old shot put Olympian. That's huge. But he wasted that opportunity.
So, for me, he didn't make it fun. I'm actually disappointed. He should compete more. With seniors, as he reached that level by going over 20m. That's exciting, that's something to look forward to. Dominating juniors for two more years is like letting Usain Bolt compete with high school kids. Break the JR world record, get done with it. Move on to what matters.
I disagree. Jack in London would be kinda boring. There are a lot of good throwers out there and he might not make it through the prelims. 20m is exceptional for his age, but not that good in London. He's young, and hopefully has a long career ahead. If he's truly ready to throw with the big boys, he can do that at next year's world champs. Don't discount the value of winning a world junior title just because of his amazing potential.
great win for gill under great pressure. sure he was looking for a bit better. but.,,
have you ever been in this situation yourself?, at any level, picked to win hands down a long time in advance? if you haven't then you won't understand that it's a really great win.
regarding selection.
of course a run away junior champion of the world has no business being named to an olympic games squad that is more or less void of talent.
of course a super protegee would not benefit from seasoning 4 years later.
of course you don't send a world raked thrower at age 16 who in all likelihood is expected to get much better.
of course an athlete the gets a B standard at age 16 is not likely to achieve an A+ at 17.
of course you can't treat a super protegee any different than the others, a 35 year old shot putter with 20.3 should be treated exactly the same way.
of course NO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD HAS A JUNIOR ATHLETE OF THIS CALIBER NOT GOING TO THE GAMES.
of course you need to wait until the last minute to figure out if gill should be on the team.
things like this are why, of course most federations suck c*ck
come on, pick up the phone and call NZ athletics and give them a piece of your mind.
shotputter wrote: Another delay. We won't see him much this year. He will probably produce a good result in October/November and then we won't hear about him for another four to five months. His career is no longer interesting to me until he starts competing more often.
shotputter wrote:He should at least be taking part in local meets. It's not that I don't agree with you, it's just he teased us with those results with the senior shot and now we don't get to see it again. He will be a great senior, but to see what he can do at this age is what is exciting right now.
Physically, he is already at the senior level. That's why it's not interesting to me to see him compete only a few times during the year, at junior level.
And this time shotputter I have to disagree with you.
Jacko doesn't throw for your pleasure, or mine, or any of us crazies who follow his performances on this forum. If he wants to just throw with the 6kg for the next 18 months then that is his right and his decision. Of course we would all be disappointed because that is not what we want. But what we want is irrelevant. What is relevant is what Jacko wants. Its his life, his career; not ours.
However, in saying that, I am also confident Jacko will give us what we crazies want. Maybe not in terms of the numbers of competitions that shotputter is hoping to see. But I believe that while Jacko wants to erase Storl's 22.73 I believe his ultimate junior targets are the records of Michael Carter. So, I am looking forward to Jacko going 24.80m which I believe is the ultimate record (but with the 6kg). I have already watched Jacko throw a non-foul warm up past Carter's 20.65m
gibson wrote:Jacko Gill is a fine young man. his training and methods are awesome. he's generating excitement in one of the most boring events. he's making it fun and becoming an all round athlete. which will allow him to tackle the discus or even the decathlon in the future.
athletics new zealand and many of the good intended posters just get in the way of progress. inadvertently, they'd to kill the goose that is laying the golden egg, except that gill won't have it and tells them to f***off.
good for gill to shut them out.
at the end of the day. i'd like to see gill box key selectors from athletics NZ and show them what's up.
if gill gets the chance he most definitely should talk to mr. mac wilkins about how to deal with federation crap and such. plus he could learn from THE master. http://macwilkins.com/
How cutting off your nose to spite your face is shutting THEM up, i'll never know. He would be flying straight to London now if he hadn't thrown a diva strop
Since Brzozowski's 21.78 got hardly any attention here, I guess I need to comment on how impressed I am by him. He's now no. 4 on the all-time 6k junior list. And once more he got a big PB when it mattered most - in terms of peaking for major events, his career record up to now must be one of the best of all time: 2009 WYC silver PB by 57 cm 2010 EYO gold PB by 31 cm 2010 WYO gold PB by 123 cm ! 2011 EJC gold PB by 11 cm 2012 WJC silver PB by 64 cm
ok, one last "shot" at why Gill did the right thing dissin athletics NZ warning DIATRIBE SUPREME ALERT
aren't sports meant to cultivate bravery, mental and physical strength, to overcome the odds, become a decent person? those involved in track and field are generally making a mockery of the aim and morality in sport. Pre, Mac Foster made some waves and now we have Gill. Those are my kind of guys, we just need more of them.
if athletes pull their support from bad, useless, inept federations in mass then those federations could/would lose massive credibility.
for example, say federer, djokovic, nadal are pissed, say if they were playing wimbledon for free - living at a lousy olympic villiage with two star ratings - at best, having TV coverage switch to beach volleyball DURING the final. and say they pull out of wimbledon, what do you think will happen to the organizers of that event? what kind of ratings would wimbledon get? organizers and that unfair process would be gonzo. what is absolutely ridiculous for tennis is acceptable or tolerated by track.
now say bolt, rudisha, eaton, merrit and say 10 other guys pull out of the games in protest at the last minute, what's going to happen to the credibility of the event? it would be a big blow.
what would happen to credibility of the entire olympic games if OG track was no longer a legitimate world championship???? that is huge possible leverage.
similarly, in the case of new zealand, the star athletes can form their own club and dictate to athletics new zealand by pulling out of domestic or even international events..... get it? the athletes form their own club and dictate to federations what they will and will not do.
a few people you see can rewrite the rule book for these global competitions and axe the bloated organizations that have raped the athletes for so long.
instead you have stuff like this going on for ever (see link below) and no one has taken a real stand. certainly on this board you can easily identify the people that would not step up to the plate and DO SOMETHING.
Jacko doesn't throw for your pleasure, or mine, or any of us crazies who follow his performances on this forum.
You're right, I didn't look at things from his perspective, only as a fan that wants to see MORE MORE MORE. Patience is a virtue, and I lack that virtue. My bad.
However, in saying that, I am also confident Jacko will give us what we crazies want. Maybe not in terms of the numbers of competitions that shotputter is hoping to see.
Just to be clear, I wasn't expecting that he competes as much as let's say Dylan Armstrong, but I was hoping to see him throw the senior shot at least once this summer. But I will learn to be patient, good things are coming from him in the next year or two.
Since Brzozowski's 21.78 got hardly any attention here, I guess I need to comment on how impressed I am by him.
Absolutely. He also had a PB with the 7.26 in May, and it's safe to say that he will break the 20m soon, now that he's switching his focus to seniors. This is his last year as a junior if I'm not mistaken.
gibson wrote:for example, say federer, djokovic, nadal are pissed, say if they were playing wimbledon for free - living at a lousy olympic villiage with two star ratings - at best, having TV coverage switch to beach volleyball DURING the final. and say they pull out of wimbledon, what do you think will happen to the organizers of that event? what kind of ratings would wimbledon get? organizers and that unfair process would be gonzo. what is absolutely ridiculous for tennis is acceptable or tolerated by track.
How does this relate to Gill's situation?
gibson wrote:Pre, Mac, Foster made some waves and now we have Gill. Those are my kind of guys, we just need more of them....
...if athletes pull their support from bad, useless, inept federations in mass then those federations could/would lose massive credibility.
similarly, in the case of new zealand, the star athletes can form their own club and dictate to athletics new zealand by pulling out of domestic or even international events..... get it? the athletes form their own club and dictate to federations what they will and will not do.
See International Track Association (ITA). I can't seem to find any useful information about it... anyone else find some to share?
bushop wrote:See International Track Association (ITA). I can't seem to find any useful information about it... anyone else find some to share?
Like what sort of information. I competed for the ITA for 3 years in the 70's
I also know first hand what a bunch of dorks (or is "berk" the going word these days) the NZ Athletic bosses have traditionally been, having personally had to suffer the arrogance and control-freak personality of NZ's version of Avery Brundage, Ces Blazey.
His drive and motivation seem at the extremely high end of the distribution. His common sense seems to be somewhere below average and he does not seem to be helped in that regard by those around him.
26mi235 wrote:His drive and motivation seem at the extremely high end of the distribution. His common sense seems to be somewhere below average and he does not seem to be helped in that regard by those around him.
He's a kid for chrissse sakes.
He feels left out by the NZ organization. He was not encouraged the way he felt he should have been. He threw the toys from the pram, he took his ball and went home. He's a kid. He isn't there to make the adults happy. He doesn't even know that he was irritating you.
Soon as you publish your manifesto, telling me what you have achieved starting from the age of 10, I'll support you in your criticism. I'm sure his advice was that he wouldn't win London, therefore make your point. And hopefully move on.
Tell me where you ranked in the world at 17, and the choices you had to make about the Olympics, and focus on the mature responses you made to the press. He's a very talented kid. Leave him alone and let him develop in ways that you, and straightliners like shotputter, could never guide him.
bushop wrote:See International Track Association (ITA). I can't seem to find any useful information about it... anyone else find some to share?
Like what sort of information. I competed for the ITA for 3 years in the 70's
I also know first hand what a bunch of dorks... the NZ Athletic bosses have traditionally been, having personally had to suffer the arrogance and control-freak personality of NZ's version of Avery Brundage, Ces Blazey.
It was suggested by gibson that the ITA model would work... were the track & field athletes able to wrest control of the sport from the federations by starting their own organization?
Seems like a facetious question... I think I know the answer but I would be speaking from ignorance.
bushop wrote:See International Track Association (ITA). I can't seem to find any useful information about it... anyone else find some to share?
Like what sort of information. I competed for the ITA for 3 years in the 70's
I also know first hand what a bunch of dorks... the NZ Athletic bosses have traditionally been, having personally had to suffer the arrogance and control-freak personality of NZ's version of Avery Brundage, Ces Blazey.
It was suggested by gibson that the ITA model would work... were the track & field athletes able to wrest control of the sport from the federations by starting their own organization?
Seems like a facetious question... I think I know the answer but I would be speaking from ignorance.
If that is what Gibson thinks he obviously doesn't know what he is talking about. ITA was controlled and owned by Mike O'Hara. The athletes had no real say. Sure we got paid but not a lot; not even Brian and Ben Jipcho who were the biggest stars. ITA was always doomed to failure because it needed to refresh itself each year with new stars. And that just didn't happen. Great experience and great fun though.
While Gill has achieved great things for his age I always remember an interview with Isaac Stern (fingers crossed I'm right) where he was asked about some young talent de jour. He seemed irritated about the interviewer's gushing remarks about the young talent being "fabulous for his age" and replied that "It's got nothing to do with being good for your age - it's only ever about being good."
I always follow this sensible advice in sport, so Gill's PB, while good for his age, is not as good overall and I won't miss him in London. He may either prove himself in time or injure himself so badly that he has to take up recreational walking or something in between. I will get excited if/when he ever proves himself good on the world stage, just like every other athlete.
PS: NZ Athletics still sound completely fucking befuddled all the same.
Tuariki wrote:ITA was always doomed to failure because it needed to refresh itself each year with new stars. And that just didn't happen.
Exactly right, Tauriki. This is why the alphabets will always beat the athletes because athletes can't endure for the 20 years needed to make a difference and the up and comers will always take what's on offer from the alphabets until they learn the same painful lesson. But that will be long enough to have fucked over the first wave and if they then, in turn, try something similar, they will themselves be fucked over by the next new wave.
Athletes are just DUPs and will always be expected to just bend over...
I'm still confused as to what NZ authorities have done wrong in this situation. Are people suggesting that they should have bent the rules for one individual ego ? it is my understanding that he could have easily been on the team for London if he's waited for the 2nd round of selection, like everyone else who didn't automatically qualify ?
mump boy wrote:Are people suggesting that they should have bent the rules for one individual ego ?
Yes... many people, including the Gill family, think Jacko should've received a roster spot months ago based on his "B" Standard throw.
mump boy wrote:It is my understanding that he could have easily been on the team for London if he's waited for the 2nd round of selection, like everyone else who didn't automatically qualify ?
mump boy wrote:I'm still confused as to what NZ authorities have done wrong in this situation. Are people suggesting that they should have bent the rules for one individual ego ? it is my understanding that he could have easily been on the team for London if he's waited for the 2nd round of selection, like everyone else who didn't automatically qualify ?
Jacko beat the B standard with his 20.01 but was told he needed to beat the NZ standard of 20.30. Note that the A standard is 20.50. He beat the NZ standard with his 20.38.
He was never told that the first selections would be restricted to only those who had met the A standard. That was not part of the selection criteria. But NZ athletics wanted to announce some of the athletes before the NZ qualifying period had closed. They didn't select Gill in the first announcement because they decided they needed to be fair to Tom Walsh in case he met the standard as well.
Gill having been told he would be selected if he threw the NZ standard of 20.38 was understandably miffed when not in the first batch selected. He would have been selected when the final bunch were selected. However he had unfortunately already "taken his ball home".
Very sad for us TnF forum crazies. Very sad for a young man who I am sure will regret on having missed out on such a magnificent opportunity. He almost certainly had no show of making the podium but he definitely had the potential to get to 21.00 and/or to make the final 8.
I thought Gill was a spinner, but in the NZ paper he said this about his performance at the Juniors:
"The circle tonight seemed a bit slippery and some of the rotational throwers had some problems but I use the standard glide so that wasn't as much of an issue for me."
26mi235 wrote:His drive and motivation seem at the extremely high end of the distribution. His common sense seems to be somewhere below average and he does not seem to be helped in that regard by those around him.
He's a kid for chrissse sakes.
You are not reading my post very closely. He has done very well performance wise. He is a kid and he is acting like a kid.
His common sense seems to be somewhere below average and he does not seem to be helped in that regard by those around him.
Lifting a ton of weight alone at all hours of the day or night is not a sign of common sense, it is a sign of pride and a sense of invincibility. While he might be excused for his enthusiasm in this regard, there are supposed to be adults around who should know better and impose some constraints. He seems like someone that is performing for an audience.
I am also not terribly impressed with his decisions/presumptions on preferential treatment for an athlete with (only) the B standard. If I recall correctly, they are leaving some 'A's home, so not pre-selecting someone with a B is hardly a slap in the face.
As for me at 17 I was a piker and consigned to taking calculus in college, which is nothing compared to his accomplishments, but that is absolutely besides the point here.
26mi235 wrote: I am also not terribly impressed with his decisions/presumptions on preferential treatment for an athlete with (only) the B standard. If I recall correctly, they are leaving some 'A's home, so not pre-selecting someone with a B is hardly a slap in the face.
26mi235 wrote:His drive and motivation seem at the extremely high end of the distribution. His common sense seems to be somewhere below average and he does not seem to be helped in that regard by those around him.
He's a kid for chrissse sakes.
You are not reading my post very closely. He has done very well performance wise. He is a kid and he is acting like a kid.
His common sense seems to be somewhere below average and he does not seem to be helped in that regard by those around him.
Lifting a ton of weight alone at all hours of the day or night is not a sign of common sense, it is a sign of pride and a sense of invincibility. While he might be excused for his enthusiasm in this regard, there are supposed to be adults around who should know better and impose some constraints. He seems like someone that is performing for an audience.
I am also not terribly impressed with his decisions/presumptions on preferential treatment for an athlete with (only) the B standard. If I recall correctly, they are leaving some 'A's home, so not pre-selecting someone with a B is hardly a slap in the face.
As for me at 17 I was a piker and consigned to taking calculus in college, which is nothing compared to his accomplishments, but that is absolutely besides the point here.
Actually I'd say it may be exactly the point.
You chose calculus. He chooses shot put. Your instincts for competitive athletics are not the same. If you've lined up at the Olympic trials, your view maybe different that the smartypants guy with the steady future.
There is a big difference in psyche growing up in NZ versus the US. (even if you had access to sheep). And I am not even talking about his accomplishments. I am not sure that he thinks about them with the same reverence that you do. He's a kid doing things that boring tit US safe hands people won't even conceive. (I grew up in Australia, did school in the US and lived in the UK among other places). If he spent any time here he wouldn't even know if you were from Mars. And more than likely you'd feel very uncomfortable on a Saturday night.
He's doing his thing, not your thing. If he crashes and burns its not the big deal you think it is. You should just enjoy him and wait for him to either come out of your imaginary tailspin, or hit the ground.
Jacko is a hugely impressive kid and I look forward to his future career with great interest. He obviously isn't physically mature yet, so what he can go on to achieve is anyone's guess.
He has a recent training video on youtube that is mindboggling. Suffice to say I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one of his punches!
Rog wrote:Jacko is a hugely impressive kid and I look forward to his future career with great interest. He obviously isn't physically mature yet, so what he can go on to achieve is anyone's guess.
He has a recent training video on youtube that is mindboggling. Suffice to say I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one of his punches!
mal, growing up in NZ makes one bereft of commonsense (and even more so, those around him)? There is nothing about doing dangerous things like his solo lifting that makes him a better shot putter or competitor.
Furthermore, the 'following' he seems to have in his internet heroics does nothing for his commonsense either, it seems.
26mi235 wrote:mal, growing up in NZ makes one bereft of commonsense (and even more so, those around him)? There is nothing about doing dangerous things like his solo lifting that makes him a better shot putter or competitor.
Furthermore, the 'following' he seems to have in his internet heroics does nothing for his commonsense either, it seems.
Says you. Mr I've been there.
Have you ever lived in New Zealand?
You come from a place famous for slicing cheese. But despite that you are judgemental of him.
Let him be who he is. He's not there trying to make you happy, just himself. I may not agree with the way he's going about his life, his High Schooling for example. But the things he is taking responsible for are thinks that strengthen his own ego.
Unlike math, athletics is more about ego and your own belief in yourself, than what's on page 54. Just enjoy his results (if you can) and laugh at him when he fails to meet your expectations. Until then he seems to have the magic formula. For him. I was in sport for a long time and there were a lot of crazy people. Many of them fell by the wayside, and many of them became very successful. One of your US icons did crazy stuff, but people still love him.
He's a kid. And he's not your kid. He seems to get plenty to eat, and he has a roof over his head, and an internet subscription. I'm sure his parents don't let him go feral.
26mi235 should probably go back and stick his nose back into his calculus books.
I may well have grown up in a country that makes one bereft of commonsense.
But at least it is a country that does not have: - A seemingly never ending history of drug cheats in TnF - A TnF federation that despite their occasional lack of managerial skills would never ever consider covering up for athletes who tested positive for drugs even if they were multi world champions and Olympic champions - To worry about high school kids taking guns to school and creating death and destruction
And for a population of only 4 million we are also a country that does reasonably well in international sports, including the Olympics and including TnF.
I note that Wisconsin has more people than NZ. I would be more than happy to compare New Zealand's international sporting achievements against those of Wisconsin. In TnF I am happy to put up Snell, Halberg, Walker, Quax, Dixon, Willis, Adams, Faumuina, Moller, Audain, Roe against anything that Wisconsin has. In other sports what about rugby? rowing? canoeing? sailing? equestrian? cycling?
Even without commonsense we survive and we occasionally achieve.
As for Jacko's parents I suggest 26mi235 should refrain from making judgments until he has actually met Walter and Nerida. And until he has actually met young Jacko.
Also Jacko's upbringing and his own personality means he would never stoop to the pathetic display shown by Tyreek Hill in celebrating the tripping of the British relay runner.
Strength Athletes via Facebook wrote:Strength Athletes August 1 Spoke to Nick Vena's dad... It's official... He is transferring to the University of Georgia... That means Hoffa is going to be his training partner next year! Crazy!
] it is why I said "if I recall correctly..."