Junior Shot Put '13 [Bukowiecki 22.24 WYBi]


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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby gibson » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:44 am

just can't let this one go.

gill putted last year 20.36 meters at 17 years.
:mrgreen: and silver last games olympics went @ 21.09.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics

any reasonable idiot can see there is a "shot" for gill at age 18 for a medal.
as he's been advancing what? a meter or two every year?
which is not to say he's a betting favorite to do so.

like a good referee, athletics new zealand should not be noticed, they are not part of the sport. they are just there to do the little things to make it happen for the athletes and the fans of the sport.

below find gills rap sheet...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacko_Gill
^ "2010 World Junior Championships in Athletics: Men's shot put (final)". IAAF. Retrieved 2010-07-21.
^ "Kiwi wins gold at world junior athletics championships". Fairfax New Zealand Limited. 21 July 2010. Retrieved 2010-07-21.
^ IAAF Youth All-time Shot Put list
^ McMurran, Alistair (28 March 2011). "Athletics: Gill adds to shot put world record collection". Otago Daily Times. Retrieved 6 October 2011.
^ IAAF Junior All-time Shot Put list
^ a b "Athletics: Jacko's massive throw an absolute thriller". nzherald. Retrieved 2011-04-24.
^ Woodcock, Fred (8 July 2011). "Jacko Gill sets sight on London Olympics medal". Stuff.co.nz. Retrieved 6 October 2011.
^ IAAF: QUALIFICATION SYSTEM – GAMES OF THE XXX OLYMPIAD
^ 2012 Olympic Games - London: Selection Criteria
^ "Athletics: Gill grabs Olympics qualifier". nzherald. Retrieved 2011-12-05.
^ "Teen sets record, attains Olympic standard". stuff.co.nz. Retrieved 2011-12-05.
^ ,IAAF World Youth Championships: Boys Shot Put Final - Gill beyond 24m, three times!
^ "Athletics: NZ shot putter Jacko Gill breaks world record". nzherald. Retrieved 2011-12-25.
^ Circle-this-name "Jacko Gill: Circle this name". Sunday Star Times. 20 December 2009. Retrieved 2010-07-2
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Flumpy » Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:53 am

bushop wrote:Pen pushers don't give a toss about Gill
by Chris Rattue 5:30 AM Wednesday Apr 4, 2012
"The 17-year-old Gill had qualified more than well enough for the London Games, and there was absolutely no downside to him going. He should have been backed to the hilt but instead, as his father Walter said, ANZ blundered and left the young athlete "gutted", no doubt by many things including the lack of respect and faith."


This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?

He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

It's only the first week of April. How many people know for certain yet that they will be competing at the Olympics(Especially with only a B standard)? Most won't know for about 3 months.

If he's this much of a diva at age 17 who know what he'll be like as an adult.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Dave » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:11 am

Flumpy wrote:
bushop wrote:Pen pushers don't give a toss about Gill
by Chris Rattue 5:30 AM Wednesday Apr 4, 2012
"The 17-year-old Gill had qualified more than well enough for the London Games, and there was absolutely no downside to him going. He should have been backed to the hilt but instead, as his father Walter said, ANZ blundered and left the young athlete "gutted", no doubt by many things including the lack of respect and faith."


This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?

He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

It's only the first week of April. How many people know for certain yet that they will be competing at the Olympics(Especially with only a B standard)? Most won't know for about 3 months.

If he's this much of a diva at age 17 who know what he'll be like as an adult.


He is 17. He has physical maturity that far outstrips his age. Perhaps we can cut him some slack that his emotional maturity may not be quite so far ahead of his age.

Most 17 year olds do grow up. They don't all do it at 17.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Marlow » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:12 am

Flumpy wrote:This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?
He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

Yet . . . on the other hand . . . they've got a real live T&F PHENOM on their hands and now they're getting negative press over it. Why not just make a great PR gesture and name him on the first ballot just for the feel-good PR? If he goes, medal or no (odds still long against it), he is still a great story for NZ.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Dave » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:38 pm

Marlow wrote:
Flumpy wrote:This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?
He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

Yet . . . on the other hand . . . they've got a real live T&F PHENOM on their hands and now they're getting negative press over it. Why not just make a great PR gesture and name him on the first ballot just for the feel-good PR? If he goes, medal or no (odds still long against it), he is still a great story for NZ.


Plus, if it doesn't go well, then get gets a good deal of experience that will make him all the more formidable in 4 years.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Flumpy » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:43 pm

Marlow wrote:
Flumpy wrote:This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?
He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

Yet . . . on the other hand . . . they've got a real live T&F PHENOM on their hands and now they're getting negative press over it. Why not just make a great PR gesture and name him on the first ballot just for the feel-good PR? If he goes, medal or no (odds still long against it), he is still a great story for NZ.


So the national federation should give in to the whims of a truculent teenager? What sort of message does that send?

And so what if they're getting bad press. It like saying CVC should drop Tiffany Porter because The Daily Mail think she's 'plastic'.

I'm pretty certain he'll be picked at a later date, there is no reason for this controversy at the moment.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby leoesharkey » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:04 pm

Mump Boy if you love the sport you should know this stuff, it's fascinating , Matson one of the best in the world as a junior, 20.20 as a junior in the early 1960s which is what about 22.80 today!!! Long, world class as a high schooler, imagine a high schooler throwing 22.50 plus today!!!,Carter 20.65 at 18!!! Beyer 19.73 at 17 !! 22.03 with the 6.25kg !! Olympic champ WR Holder, Blinoh,european senior and olympic champion , , Kiselyev Olympic champion, Andrei Olympic champion, Barnes 21.88m at 19!!!!!

The all time junior list just doesn't cover some or most of the greatest junior putters ever!
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby leoesharkey » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:12 pm

I meant the IAAF 6k list, I see Jordan Clark is the only thrower on the Tilastopaja junior lists for both Shot and Discus...
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Marlow » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:15 pm

Flumpy wrote:
Marlow wrote:
Flumpy wrote:This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?
He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

Yet . . . on the other hand . . . they've got a real live T&F PHENOM on their hands and now they're getting negative press over it. Why not just make a great PR gesture and name him on the first ballot just for the feel-good PR? If he goes, medal or no (odds still long against it), he is still a great story for NZ.


So the national federation should give in to the whims of a truculent teenager?

I did NOT say it was for Gill at all - it's for the greater Olympic community that would love a glimpse of this legit WORLD phenom on the largest stage.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby bushop » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:51 pm

leoesharkey wrote:Matson one of the best in the world as a junior, 20.20 as a junior in the early 1960s which is what about 22.80 today!!! Long, world class as a high schooler, imagine a high schooler throwing 22.50 plus today!!!
What do you mean here? 22.80m (74'9")? 22.50m (73'10")?

leoesharkey wrote:The all-time junior list just doesn't cover some or most of the greatest junior putters ever!
Would you agree that most of the top high school shot putters (12 pound) have not become world class shot putters with the 7kg ball?
Last edited by bushop on Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Tuariki » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:41 pm

New Zealand Olympic Committee pleading with Jacko to change his mind.

Today's NZ Herald reports:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=10797144

What might help is if Atheletcis NZ admit they screwed up.

Flumpy wrote:
This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?

He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

It's only the first week of April. How many people know for certain yet that they will be competing at the Olympics(Especially with only a B standard)? Most won't know for about 3 months.

If he's this much of a diva at age 17 who know what he'll be like as an adult.


Flumpy wrote:
So the national federation should give in to the whims of a truculent teenager? What sort of message does that send?

And so what if they're getting bad press. It like saying CVC should drop Tiffany Porter because The Daily Mail think she's 'plastic'.

I'm pretty certain he'll be picked at a later date, there is no reason for this controversy at the moment.


Flumpy - you don't know what you are talking about.

After Jacko met the Olympic B standard when he threw 20.01m in April 2011, Athletics NZ said that wasn't good enough as the NZ standard was higher. At that time they hadn't published the NZ selection criteria. They then published the criteria and the only thing Jacko had to do to get on the team was to throw 20.30m.

Athletics NZ did not publish in their selection criteria that the IAAF A standard was also part of the NZ selction criteria. Of course the IAAF A standad had to be part of the selection criteria because Athletics NZ cannot overrule the IAAF. But it was not part of the published selection criteria - it was an after thought when they realised the IAAF crteria had to be factoredin as well.

(Mind you maybe I am wrong here and perhaps they initially thought they could overrule the IAAF - Don't forget the Athletics NZ adminstrators who wroteup the selection rules are same bozos who decided to introduce a rule last year that would prevent a certain then 16 year old phenom from competing in the senior division of the NZ shot put champs - never mind that he was the NZ senior recordholder)

Athletics NZ did not publish a cut off timeframe for performances. They did not publish the fact that the team would be announced in stages. So when the team was announced Jacko had every right to expect to be named in that team - as did decathlete Brent Newdick. They had both met the selection criteria as published.

There was nothing mentioned previously about having to wait in case someone else met the NZ 20.30m standard.

With the logic used for Jacko then why did Athletics NZ not also wait till July in case 3 more 1500m runners met the A standard? Then we would have had 4 to choose from and maybe Nick Willis might not be picked.

If Athletics NZ had intended to have staggered selection announcements because of the IAAF A standard then they should have published these as part of the selection criteria.

The only diva in these comments is you flumpy. You should well know that top international class athletes base there training around a fixed schedule determined by such things as firm selection criteria. The fact that the USA hasn't selected its team is notat all relevant. All USA athletes know exactly what they have to do to be selected and when they have to do it. They have certainty. With NZ it is a changing and moveable feast.

Athletics NZ administrators should stand up and be counted, They should apologise and admit they screwed up.

Like everyone else I hope that Jacko does change his mind. I hope that he throws 23m at the world juniors and then a few days later throws 21m with the 7.26kg - and then agrees to go to London.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Rye Catcher » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:10 pm

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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mump boy » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:32 am

Tuariki wrote:Flumpy - you don't know what you are talking about.

After Jacko met the Olympic B standard when he threw 20.01m in April 2011, Athletics NZ said that wasn't good enough as the NZ standard was higher. At that time they hadn't published the NZ selection criteria. They then published the criteria and the only thing Jacko had to do to get on the team was to throw 20.30m.

Athletics NZ did not publish in their selection criteria that the IAAF A standard was also part of the NZ selction criteria. Of course the IAAF A standad had to be part of the selection criteria because Athletics NZ cannot overrule the IAAF. But it was not part of the published selection criteria - it was an after thought when they realised the IAAF crteria had to be factoredin as well.

(Mind you maybe I am wrong here and perhaps they initially thought they could overrule the IAAF - Don't forget the Athletics NZ adminstrators who wroteup the selection rules are same bozos who decided to introduce a rule last year that would prevent a certain then 16 year old phenom from competing in the senior division of the NZ shot put champs - never mind that he was the NZ senior recordholder)

Athletics NZ did not publish a cut off timeframe for performances. They did not publish the fact that the team would be announced in stages. So when the team was announced Jacko had every right to expect to be named in that team - as did decathlete Brent Newdick. They had both met the selection criteria as published.

There was nothing mentioned previously about having to wait in case someone else met the NZ 20.30m standard.

With the logic used for Jacko then why did Athletics NZ not also wait till July in case 3 more 1500m runners met the A standard? Then we would have had 4 to choose from and maybe Nick Willis might not be picked.

If Athletics NZ had intended to have staggered selection announcements because of the IAAF A standard then they should have published these as part of the selection criteria.

The only diva in these comments is you flumpy. You should well know that top international class athletes base there training around a fixed schedule determined by such things as firm selection criteria. The fact that the USA hasn't selected its team is notat all relevant. All USA athletes know exactly what they have to do to be selected and when they have to do it. They have certainty. With NZ it is a changing and moveable feast.

Athletics NZ administrators should stand up and be counted, They should apologise and admit they screwed up.

Like everyone else I hope that Jacko does change his mind. I hope that he throws 23m at the world juniors and then a few days later throws 21m with the 7.26kg - and then agrees to go to London.


Has anyone else with 1 B standard been selected ? if not have the others with 1 B standard thrown their toys out the pram and refused selection at a later date ?

Edit: i've answered my own question

They have only selected 4 people in the first round, a reigning champion, a reigning silver medallist, a 85m Commonwealth Games silver medallist, world championship finalist Javelin thrower and a 2.25 marathon runner who holds every national record from 3k to marathon.

who all have A qualifiers

So the question remains, have any of the other athletes with B qualifiers who didn't get selected in the first round, refused to be considered in a later round of selections ?
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Giant Panda » Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:07 am

He could always move to Kiribati and run the 100m.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Dave » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:54 am

Rye Catcher wrote:NZ Athletics backtracking.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=10797144


Looks like the kid and his family played this well.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby bushop » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:33 am

Athletics: Olympic officials' plea to Jacko - reconsider London
By Dylan Cleaver and Dana Johannsen
5:30 AM Saturday Apr 7, 2012

"... but also for the New Zealand public who had been eagerly looking forward to seeing how Gill would go against the best in the world."
I assume he could get into a Diamond League meet or two?

"Gill had eclipsed the IAAF "B" standard of 20m and Athletics NZ's mark of 20.30m, but to guarantee his ticket to London, and be named in the first group of athletes nominated by the NZOC, he needed to meet the "A" qualifying standard of 20.50m."
Does this mean anyone below Athletics NZ's Standard (ie. 20.30m) is not invited to the Games? ... even if they've hit the Olympic "B" Standard (ie. 20.00m)?

"Newman said Athletics NZ had already started working with Gill on tailoring his programme for his title defence at the junior world championships in Barcelona in July."
Really... Athletics NZ helps Gill right his training schedule?

My comments in red.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mump boy » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:24 pm

bushop wrote:
"Gill had eclipsed the IAAF "B" standard of 20m and Athletics NZ's mark of 20.30m, but to guarantee his ticket to London, and be named in the first group of athletes nominated by the NZOC, he needed to meet the "A" qualifying standard of 20.50m."
Does this mean anyone below Athletics NZ's Standard (ie. 20.30m) is not invited to the Games? ... even if they've hit the Olympic "B" Standard (ie. 20.00m)?


It is my understanding that there will be a second round of selection in June when people with B qualifiers will be considered and selected. There was every chance that Jacko would have been selected in the 2nd round along with others with B qualifiers. Apparently that wasn't good enough for him.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Tuariki » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:52 pm

mump boy wrote:
Has anyone else with 1 B standard been selected ? if not have the others with 1 B standard thrown their toys out the pram and refused selection at a later date ?

Edit: i've answered my own question

They have only selected 4 people in the first round, a reigning champion, a reigning silver medallist, a 85m Commonwealth Games silver medallist, world championship finalist Javelin thrower and a 2.25 marathon runner who holds every national record from 3k to marathon.

who all have A qualifiers

So the question remains, have any of the other athletes with B qualifiers who didn't get selected in the first round, refused to be considered in a later round of selections ?


mump- you and flumpy just don't seem to get it.

The problem is not with the selection criteria that Athletics NZ has belatedly announced when they announced the first batch of 4 athletes last week. The problem is that these selection criteria in NZ are a moveable feast.

The selection criteria were never announced until after Jacko beat the B standard of 20.00m when he threw 20.01m. Then the published selection criteria just mentioned that all an athlete had to do to qualify for London was to meet the higher NZ standard that was published. That standard was 20.30m which Jacko exceeded as a 16 year old in December when he threw 20.38m.

There was no mention in the selection criteria of a close off date or the announcing of athletes in batches at different times. There was no mention of having to wait for perhaps another athlete to meet the NZ standard in case NZ had 2 athletes that met the NZ standard but neither met the A standard set by the IAAF.

Therefore Jacko was quite justified to feel aggrieved that he wasn't named when the "team" was announced. He had met the NZ published selection criteria. However, it turns out that the real unpublished selection criteria can be summed up as follows:

1. Athletes must exceed the NZ standard of 20.30m.

2. The first batch of athletes selected will be made immediately following the NZ champs
The first batch will be only those athletes that have exceeded the IAAF A standard

3. For those athletes who have exceeded the NZ standard but not the IAAF A standard then the selection of those athletes will not be confirmed until say 1June 2012.

4. If 2 or more athletes reach the NZ standard but not the IAAF standard then the selectors will make the determination as to which athlete will be selected.

If they had published this a year or so ago then we would not be having this drama today. However, our national adminstration are simply amateur and not up to it.

NZ has a great history of wanting to cut the tall poppy back down to size. Just ask Snell, Walke, Quax, Dixon and others. Many of your adminstrators who fight their way to the top of adminstration are often "failed" athletes who love nothing better than to let the athlete know who is the boss.

And maybe Jacko should go and compete for Kiribati as suggested by Giant Panda - at least they would appreciate him.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby leoesharkey » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:58 pm

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/olympic-games ... d=10797326

I am a bit confused about the fouls at the special meet for the earthquake victims...I could not see them?
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby leoesharkey » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:19 pm

Mump boy I mean that Matson's throwing was awesome, Ok 22.80 as a junior would be an understatement for him, he equaled the WR as a junior !! so it would be like a junior throwing 23.16 today....
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby leoesharkey » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:21 pm

Long broke the senior WR as a Junior...
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mump boy » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:34 pm

Tuariki wrote:
mump boy wrote:
Has anyone else with 1 B standard been selected ? if not have the others with 1 B standard thrown their toys out the pram and refused selection at a later date ?

Edit: i've answered my own question

They have only selected 4 people in the first round, a reigning champion, a reigning silver medallist, a 85m Commonwealth Games silver medallist, world championship finalist Javelin thrower and a 2.25 marathon runner who holds every national record from 3k to marathon.

who all have A qualifiers

So the question remains, have any of the other athletes with B qualifiers who didn't get selected in the first round, refused to be considered in a later round of selections ?


mump- you and flumpy just don't seem to get it.

The problem is not with the selection criteria that Athletics NZ has belatedly announced when they announced the first batch of 4 athletes last week. The problem is that these selection criteria in NZ are a moveable feast.

The selection criteria were never announced until after Jacko beat the B standard of 20.00m when he threw 20.01m. Then the published selection criteria just mentioned that all an athlete had to do to qualify for London was to meet the higher NZ standard that was published. That standard was 20.30m which Jacko exceeded as a 16 year old in December when he threw 20.38m.

There was no mention in the selection criteria of a close off date or the announcing of athletes in batches at different times. There was no mention of having to wait for perhaps another athlete to meet the NZ standard in case NZ had 2 athletes that met the NZ standard but neither met the A standard set by the IAAF.

Therefore Jacko was quite justified to feel aggrieved that he wasn't named when the "team" was announced. He had met the NZ published selection criteria. However, it turns out that the real unpublished selection criteria can be summed up as follows:

1. Athletes must exceed the NZ standard of 20.30m.

2. The first batch of athletes selected will be made immediately following the NZ champs
The first batch will be only those athletes that have exceeded the IAAF A standard

3. For those athletes who have exceeded the NZ standard but not the IAAF A standard then the selection of those athletes will not be confirmed until say 1June 2012.

4. If 2 or more athletes reach the NZ standard but not the IAAF standard then the selectors will make the determination as to which athlete will be selected.

If they had published this a year or so ago then we would not be having this drama today. However, our national adminstration are simply amateur and not up to it.

NZ has a great history of wanting to cut the tall poppy back down to size. Just ask Snell, Walke, Quax, Dixon and others. Many of your adminstrators who fight their way to the top of adminstration are often "failed" athletes who love nothing better than to let the athlete know who is the boss.

And maybe Jacko should go and compete for Kiribati as suggested by Giant Panda - at least they would appreciate him.


We both understand perfectly well, what we don't understand is why it is only Jacko Gill and his supporters who have created a drama out of it. There are plenty of other athletes who also only have one B standard who will continue training and competing in the hope of getting the A standard or impressing enough to get selected in the 2nd round. They haven't arbitrarily decided to cut off their nose to spite their face.

Jacko Gill is an amazing talent but that doesn't mean that he should get special treatment. All of this drama from a teenage athlete reminds me of similar situations we had with Emily Pidgeon and Amy Spencer in the UK. All of their complains were also based around how special their children where and therefore should be treated differently (Emily's dad decided that he didn't like the training camp for the WJ therefore Emily wouldn't go !!). Emily is now a shadow of her former self, only just running faster than she did at 15 and Amy quit at the age of 17 for unknown reasons.

It's none of my business but I would prefer Jacko Gill spent his teenage years enjoying his athletics instead of being in the middle of controversy of his (his parents ?) making. I think this is the best way to insure that he is still taking part at the highest level in 17 years time

However good they are, i don't think that children should be dictating to national federations, it is not productive, a good precedent or conducive to a successful long term career.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mump boy » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:38 pm

leoesharkey wrote:Long broke the senior WR as a Junior...


i take it all back, successful Jnr Shot Putters dominate the world all time list.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby bushop » Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:56 pm

Athletics: Why Jacko Gill quit
5:30 AM Sunday Apr 8, 2012
"At the heart of the Gill saga is said to be Athletics NZ's inability to make Gill and his family feel valued enough.... inquiries have shown that Gill's withdrawal has come after a series of incidents... added up to the family feeling... that blocks were being put in Gill's way... perhaps the strangest part of this story is the foul throws when an upset Gill confronted judges whom he felt were deliberately calling foul throws on him... the judges claiming he was touching the top of the... back of the shot put circle... he felt the judges were gunning for him..."
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Tuariki » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:46 pm

I am pretty confident that Brent Newdick - decathlete - is just as disappointed as Jacko. Brent, was 22nd with 8114 points in the decathlon in 2011. The NZ selection standard is 8050. The nxt best NZ athlete is on 7601 points.

I have no problem with what we now know to be the full selection criteria for London 2012. It is just that Athletics NZ needs to learn to be better at comunicating such things to its elite athletes.

I understand that the Atheltics NZ is allowing athletes up to 8 July 2012 in which to register qualifying performances for London. While I accept that this is good and generous for those athletes that are still seeking a qualifying mark it is very distracting for athletes like Gill and Newdick. In events where an athlete has already met the NZ standard but not the IAAF A standard then I think the cut-off date should be earlier for that event - say 1 June 2012. This then allows the athletes with the already proven performance history to focus their training for London and not have to be distracted by the threat of maybe havingto make a last minute change in training regime.

For example, while it is unlikley, what if Tom Walsh throws 20.40m on 8 July 2012 cut off date?

Jacko Gill would have no chance to respond with a performance and Walsh could say he should be selected because he has the longest throw. The selectors would probabvly still select Jacko but then Walsh would feel aggrieved.

Oh well, I guess at the end of the day nothing really changes. NZ (and most countries) all have these selection dilemmas going into every Olympics.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby bushop » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:07 pm

Tuariki wrote:I have no problem with what we now know to be the full selection criteria for London 2012. It is just that Athletics NZ needs to learn to be better at communicating such things to its elite athletes.
Amen

Tuariki wrote:For example, while it is unlikely, what if Tom Walsh throws 20.40m... ?
This is one of two unanswered questions.
The other is... does Athletics NZ send someone who has hit "B" Standard but not the "Athletics NZ" Standard? Do they fill all the spots they possibly can?
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Flumpy » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:54 am

bushop wrote:Athletics: Why Jacko Gill quit
5:30 AM Sunday Apr 8, 2012
"At the heart of the Gill saga is said to be Athletics NZ's inability to make Gill and his family feel valued enough....


I think this basically sums up the whole conflama. If it hadn't been selection they would have found something else to complain about.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:15 pm

My impression is that this is way too much of a soap opera and also that Gill is semi-our of control. His training process is one that seems likely to result in unnecessary problems both from trying to ramp up very quickly rather than build over a longer period and to risk traumatic injury from doing unnecessarily dangerous training and doing so, in part, because he has an audience (that is at least implicitly cheering him on).
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby norunner » Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:36 pm

Why doesn't Gill simply throw the A standard of 20.50m and be done with it? Many people seem to think that 21m are no problem for him, so 20.50 should be easy and then there would be no discussion. And why does he need to know now where is is going to start? He is so far ahead of the other juniors, he would win Barcelona 2-3m ahead of the competition even if he concentrated on London. David Storls coach said David will compete at the european championships a month before London, but they consider it nothing more than a regular meeting. Gill should be able to do the same for Barcelona and London.
The way i see it, currently Gill is a big talent, nothing more. So was Mykyta Nesterenko, so was Obea Moore. I wonder if people made the same fuss about Nesterenko four years ago when he threw the mens discus over 65m at the age of 17.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby bushop » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:04 pm

Editorial: Olympic shambles a disgrace
Grant Harding | Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:36
"In all seriousness, how could they treat this brilliant, dedicated young man so shabbily when Olympic blazers have been given to far inferior athletes through the years. Did they not remember that a young Valerie Adams went to the Athens Olympics in 2004 before her Beijing triumph four years later?"
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:02 pm

Brilliant? Where did that descriptor come from and what is the non-standard use of the term mean? He strikes me as a number of things, but brilliant is not remotely one of them.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Gabriella » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:03 am

That NZ editorial made me chuckle. Athletics NZ may have messed up, but I would hope their intention was/is to protect him and help prolong his career. If it is personal then that is a shame; if it is ineptitude then that is just plain funny.

I agree with norunner. He should win the Juniors with his eyes closed, in his sleep, backwards. He should just wait to see whether another athlete get's the qualifying or go for the A standard. And if, come to the deadline, he still isn't selected, then so be it. He's 17, this isn't like it's his last chance for Olympic Glory.

The more I read about him and his family set-up, the more I no likey. Which is wrong because I've never met the boy and shouldn't believe everything I read. But I just find the arrogance coming out of the camp nauseating. In some ways I hope that B standard Tom fella throws the A standard now, especially the way the poor guy has been put down.

Mr J Gill; please concentrate on your training; do not do silly night-time lifting sessions by yourself; take your foot off the gas a little and think about your long term career. You are extremely talented but that will count for nothing if you ruin your body at 17.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mump boy » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:20 am

Gabriella wrote:That NZ editorial made me chuckle. Athletics NZ may have messed up, but I would hope their intention was/is to protect him and help prolong his career. If it is personal then that is a shame; if it is ineptitude then that is just plain funny.

I agree with norunner. He should win the Juniors with his eyes closed, in his sleep, backwards. He should just wait to see whether another athlete get's the qualifying or go for the A standard. And if, come to the deadline, he still isn't selected, then so be it. He's 17, this isn't like it's his last chance for Olympic Glory.

The more I read about him and his family set-up, the more I no likey. Which is wrong because I've never met the boy and shouldn't believe everything I read. But I just find the arrogance coming out of the camp nauseating. In some ways I hope that B standard Tom fella throws the A standard now, especially the way the poor guy has been put down.

Mr J Gill; please concentrate on your training; do not do silly night-time lifting sessions by yourself; take your foot off the gas a little and think about your long term career. You are extremely talented but that will count for nothing if you ruin your body at 17.


This ^

That editorial makes no sense, he has taken himself out of consideration, it's not the federation refusing to select him, he just had to wait a few more months for the nod along with everyone else with a B standard.

When Valerie got selected in 04 she was 19 and a senior, not 17 and had been ranked 14th in the world the year before. The A standard was 18.55 and she had thrown 18.96 in February, there is no comparison.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby jjimbojames » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:27 am

There's a lot in that piece the doesn't make sense IMO - but there we go!

Long story short, if he doesn't go to London, it will be through his own choice, as NZ will select him closer to the time if he wants to go. That said, I can see another scenario where they don't select him based on him saying he wasn't going, and then he gets upset that they didn't select him, as he wanted to go really, and felt they should show how important and special he is by selecting him anyway, and letting him make the choice :roll:

This situation should have been handled better by all parties though
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mal » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:04 am

Watch the whining in NZ start when he moves countries. Or looks like doing it. I am sure Quatar would love him.

And there seems to be a lot of people tangential to the event and the boy who seem to be disappointed in him more because he doesn't meet their expectations rather than his own.

He may eventually crash and burn, but I hope he sticks with his own convention.

There is a reason T&F is a failing sport. There are not enough people like Jacko Gill. And too many old farts who want to preserve the status quo. Or take the path long traveled.

It seems there are really few successful athletes who remain in T&F. Its usually the average athletes who love the sport, but may not have instinct for true ballsout achievement.

So question - how many 'nsults' my diatribe? :mrgreen:

Discuss.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby gibson » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:58 am

many a thanks to GH for posting NZ articles relating to jacko gill.

the issue here is ...

the organization vs the purpose of the organization.

track and field fans know this. the ENEMY of the athletics associations no matter where.... is the top athlete and their coach.

it is an oxymoron to be sure, but this is the case.
from bekele, to lydiard, to prefontaine.
the non talents in the associations, the can't do people, instruct the how to do people.

the good people avoid the organization on the account that they don't like to livearound bullshit people.

the new paradigm is for the good people to speak out, just like jacko has.
get some balls, and speak out.

enough.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Tuariki » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:49 am

And from TODAYS TOP HEADLINES the Jacko selection saga is put in perspective when one considers the dilemma of being one of the world's top 10k runners but unfortunate to be a Kenyan.

[b]DAILY NATION - April10, 2012 - The pre-trials for the national 10,000m men’s team for the London Olympic Games due for Tuesday next week at the Nyayo National Stadium will only feature 31 athletes with A Standard qualifying times Athletics Kenya has said.

Even though 46 athletes with A and B Standard qualifying times had been short-listed for the national camp that has been going on in Eldoret, those with A Standard times of 27:45.00 have received the green light to battle it out at the pre-trials.

Consequently, 15 athletes with B Standard times of 28:05.00 have been excluded from the pre-trials where 15 athletes will be picked for the final trials that will be held during Diamond League’s Prefontaine Classic on June 2 in Eugene, United States.[/b]


And so at the end of the day jimbojames is right - if Jacko doesn't go to London it will be because Jacko has made the conscious decision not to go. Although Athletics NZ has somewhat cocked up their selection processes it is equally clear they want to select, and intend to select, Jacko for London - if Jacko relents (backs down).

As I said earlier it is probably best that he just get on with the job of winning at Barcelona, hopefully throwing a WJR and then going out a few days later and blasting 21 with the 7.26.
Having seen him throw a legitimate 20.75m in warming upforhis eventual 20.38m I feel confident 21m is within the realms of reality.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Grasshopper » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:49 pm

bushop wrote:
leoesharkey wrote:The all-time junior list just doesn't cover some or most of the greatest junior putters ever!
Would you agree that most of the top high school shot putters (12 pound) have not become world class shot putters with the 7kg ball?

I'd be curious to see statistics on what percentage of top (USA) high school shot putters have given up the sport (or relegated it to 2nd priority) after high school in favor of college football. I'd guess the percentage is rather high. My point being that the lack of continued success by American SP'ers after high schools is very likely more a function of culture rather than technique, training, or anything to do with the unique 12lb shot.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby bushop » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:49 pm

Grasshopper wrote:
bushop wrote:
leoesharkey wrote:The all-time junior list just doesn't cover some or most of the greatest junior putters ever!
Would you agree that most of the top high school shot putters (12 pound) have not become world class shot putters with the 16-pound ball?
My point being that the lack of continued success by American SP'ers after high schools is very likely more a function of culture rather than technique, training, or anything to do with the unique 12lb shot.
To a certain extent the event(s) are so different. The 12-pound ball can be thrown well by smaller, quicker athletes who cannot handle the bigger ball. When one moves to the 16 pound ball you need a certain about of strength to go along with the speed.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Tuariki » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:51 pm

bushop wrote:
Grasshopper wrote:
bushop wrote:
leoesharkey wrote:The all-time junior list just doesn't cover some or most of the greatest junior putters ever!
Would you agree that most of the top high school shot putters (12 pound) have not become world class shot putters with the 16-pound ball?
My point being that the lack of continued success by American SP'ers after high schools is very likely more a function of culture rather than technique, training, or anything to do with the unique 12lb shot.
To a certain extent the event(s) are so different. The 12-pound ball can be thrown well by smaller, quicker athletes who cannot handle the bigger ball. When one moves to the 16 pound ball you need a certain about of strength to go along with the speed.


While your point is no doubt correct I would have to agree that the main reason for top USA high school shot putters not progressing to the top of the senior ranks is because the majority are also football players who aspire to the fame and riches of the NFL which is something beyond what the world of international shot puting can offer.

If it wasn't for the NFL one can only imagine what Michael Carter might have achieved. Not withstanding the amazing achievements of Jacko the bench mark to chase after is still Carter's 81' 3 1/2" high school 12lb record.
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