Junior Shot Put '13 [Bukowiecki 22.24 WYBi]


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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Tuariki » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:33 pm

bushop wrote:
Vault-emort wrote:I would have liked to see him competing in London - just for the experience. I think he is deserving of it and - given his rapid and continued improvement to date - I'm surprised Aths NZL haven't been more encouraging.

If Gill hits 20.50m he punches his ticket... otherwise he has to wait like everyone else under the "A" Standard.
Why would NZL do it differently?


He is deserving of it because he has met the Athletics NZ qualifying criteria.

I understand why Athletics NZ is now saying he has to wait. My problem with Atheltics NZ is that if they were half way competent they would have had all of this spelt out in the selection qualifying policy. They didn't. And to even find their woefully inadequate selection document on their web site you need to be nothing short of Sherlock "bloody" Holmes. I think they should revert to part of their former name and call themselves "Amateur" Athletics NZ.

26mi235 wrote:Gill has been pushing the envelope in a sometimes very unreasonable manner in part to make the "A" standard for 2012. I think that this is the best thing for him.

He is like a lot of youngsters - he has a deficit of patience and he needs much more. Now maybe he will focus a little further out and not take such unnecessary risks. Youngsters find that they did X several times so it must be safe -- with little kids running across the street would seem safe because they did it ten times and did not get hurt (or almost hurt). It is entirely the wrong frequency necessary for such an assessment. He has not gotten hurt too many times for too long in training and thinks he knows what he is doing.

Look at his late-night, solo lifting -- if anyone thinks that this is a smart way to train for the long-run I would be stunned.


26mi235 - And that is also a dorky comment.

If you were in NZ around 1958-ish you probably would say that Lydiard was being unreasonable having his athletes running unheard of things like 100 plus miles a week for 800m runners. Just as well as Snell was too stupid to realise that Lydiard was being unreasonable.

Why is it unreasonable for him to train at night? If his parents have learnt to put up with the late night crash banging of weights I can't see why it bothers you all the way in the USA.

For those of you, who like 26mi235 (and I include myself) have had concerns about the risks of injury to Jacko in the way he does lifting without a spotter, and especially in his bench press, that concern is understandable. I had a chat with his Dad Walter last week at the NZ Nationals. Walter says he understands and appreciates the world wide interest in what his son is doing and the concerns over possible serious injury. Walter has said that Jacko has a couple of times been unable to get the weight back up when bench pressing solo. However, Jacko has learnt how to let the weights down on one side and then push up the other side to extricate himself. Not a method I would recommend for yours truly but then Jacko is Jacko (wacko??). No matter what you think he certainly gets the results.

Throwers Podcast wrote:Gill's decision to forgo London only adds to his mystique. He has an opportunity reminiscent of Ricky Bruch circa 1984.

I think he knows exactly what he's doing. No need to feel TOO sorry for him.


I don't feel sorry for Jacko. I feel sorry for me on missing out on seeing what a 17 year old shot putter can achieve in the ultimate setting.




.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby gibson » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:17 pm

this case is a standard illustration of how athletics organizations are really about trumpeting their grand rules, regulations and status, making the big decisions, keeping all those naughty athletes in line.... while real care for the athletes goes by the way side.

good for gill to stick it to athletics new zealand and not suffer through their bullshit selection process and half-ass rules.

the more athletics new zealand can be embarrassed the better it will be for the athlete's that suffer under them.

athletics new zealand is talking bullshit saying gill is making the logical decision, as if to be on gill's side. while insinuating that gill is rash in not waiting for the selection that is sure to come, which is more bullshit, they should have approved him in the first place, and not fooled around with the athletes preparation.

with that said, athletes of experience say there is no better way to prepare for the olympics than by being at one.

into the future, athletics new zealand will play mr. nice guy with gill, knowing that if they screw with him in any way, it will likely blow up in their face.

i love gill. he won't play ball with losers.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Powell » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:03 pm

Throwers Podcast wrote:But as he has chosen to forgo the Olympics, imagine if he is able to throw the 16lb ball over 21m during a summer European meet somewhere... The outcry over his exclusion would be deafening!


He has NOT been excluded, for cryin' out loud. It's 4 months to go to the OG, he would have plenty of time left to qualify.
Storl, Cantwell, Majewski etc. have not gotten their Olympic team berths at this point, either. Should they all also take offense at their respective national federations?
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Athleticsimaging » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:27 am

In case nobody has noticed, the quoted Athletics NZ qualifying distance of 20.30m has been the A qualifier for SP for at least the decade prior to the recent revision to 20.50m. Maybe Athletics NZ forgot to notice that there was a new A standard and had to have some explanation about a "special standard"...... :oops:

Of course, that was never going to be an issue as no NZer would throw that far in 2012. :mrgreen:
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Gabriella » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:18 am

Powell wrote:He has NOT been excluded, for cryin' out loud. It's 4 months to go to the OG, he would have plenty of time left to qualify.
Storl, Cantwell, Majewski etc. have not gotten their Olympic team berths at this point, either. Should they all also take offense at their respective national federations?


This ^^

If Gill wants to throw his toys out the pram then let him. No athlete is bigger than their federation or the sport. He has to follow the qualifying rules, whatever they are, like everyone else. There was/is plenty of time for him to be selected.

Like mump I would rather he not be in London too, it'll help his long term career. Not because I want to be spiteful or rule him out for the sake of it or solely because of his age on paper, but more so because he seems to be just doing far too much too soon in the weights room. He needs to back off or he is going to do himself some serious damage. If he's going to have a strop because he's not in the first round of selections then imagine what he'd be like if he had been selected; we'd probably be reading of more solo late night jerk offs and next thing we know he's torn his shoulder muscle and out for a year.

He just needs to s-l-o-w down a little, not rush and consider his long term career goals...and tailor things around that.

God I hope I'm wrog but I imagine injuries galore for this kid soon and an outstanding career that was never to be.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby tandfman » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:38 am

Gabriella wrote:Like mump I would rather he not be in London too, it'll help his long term career.

I don't know about his "long term career" (which could extend well into the 2020s) but I suspect it would help him at the 2016 Olympic Games if he already had an Olympic experience under his belt--even an unsuccessful one.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Vault-emort » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:08 am

Gabriella wrote:Like mump I would rather he not be in London too, it'll help his long term career. Not because I want to be spiteful or rule him out for the sake of it or solely because of his age on paper, but more so because he seems to be just doing far too much too soon in the weights room. He needs to back off or he is going to do himself some serious damage.

I can't think of any reason why an outstanding (headstrong?) junior prospect in any sport/any event would suddenly back off on his/her training methods because s/he didn't get selected in a senior team.

Probably the opposite..
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby leoesharkey » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:04 am

The best Juniors youths not making it through to seniors????????

" no one on the youth to Jnr all time SP list has achieved anything of note as a senior, i'd prefer to see him competing at the 2028 Olympics than the 2012."

Matson, Long, Carter, Beyer, Kiselyev, Andrei, Blinoh, Barnes were all top juniors who dominated as seniors, have a look through the all time lists
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Throwers Podcast » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:02 am

Gabriella wrote:
Powell wrote:He has NOT been excluded, for cryin' out loud. It's 4 months to go to the OG, he would have plenty of time left to qualify.
Storl, Cantwell, Majewski etc. have not gotten their Olympic team berths at this point, either. Should they all also take offense at their respective national federations?


This ^^

If Gill wants to throw his toys out the pram then let him. No athlete is bigger than their federation or the sport. He has to follow the qualifying rules, whatever they are, like everyone else. There was/is plenty of time for him to be selected.

Like mump I would rather he not be in London too, it'll help his long term career. Not because I want to be spiteful or rule him out for the sake of it or solely because of his age on paper, but more so because he seems to be just doing far too much too soon in the weights room. He needs to back off or he is going to do himself some serious damage. If he's going to have a strop because he's not in the first round of selections then imagine what he'd be like if he had been selected; we'd probably be reading of more solo late night jerk offs and next thing we know he's torn his shoulder muscle and out for a year.


From my perspective, half a world away, Gill was excluded from the initial round of athlete selection for NZ. As a B Standard athlete, he was eligible to be selected and was passed over, thus "excluded" on this go 'round.

After being excluded on the first round, he decided to "throw his toys out of the pram" and declare he now has no intent on competing at the Olympics and ostensibly has withdrawn his name for future consideration in 2012.

It reminds me of the classic Seinfeld episode where George has "no hand" in a relationship with a woman and preemptively breaks up with her in order to gain the upper hand, and increase his power in the relationship. Jacko is "breaking up" with NZ Athletics before NZ Athletics can break up with him. He sets himself up as the little guy taking on the "establishment." Fascinating drama!

Gill, at a very young age, is carving out a reputation in the images of Bruch and Oldfield, the two greatest characters of our sport. A new "rebel" for even casual fans to latch onto.

Personally, from what little I have seen, I, too, find Gill's training methods dangerous. The fact that he dropped out of school (with his parents' blessing) at the age of 16 in order to train full time is ridiculous. And, frankly, NZ Athletics was right not to include him in the initial selection - he hasn't thrown far enough to be a contender. But taking my personal feelings out of it, Gill's 2012 season is fascinating theater and is far from over.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Tuariki » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:47 pm

Powell wrote:
Throwers Podcast wrote:But as he has chosen to forgo the Olympics, imagine if he is able to throw the 16lb ball over 21m during a summer European meet somewhere... The outcry over his exclusion would be deafening!


He has NOT been excluded, for cryin' out loud. It's 4 months to go to the OG, he would have plenty of time left to qualify.


Powell is correct and Podcast wrong re exclusion. Jacko has not been excluded.

However, Powell is wrong on his second sentence. Jacko has already qualified as he has met the only distance stated in the Athletics NZ qualifying criteria - that is 20.30m.

There is nothing in the selection rules for Athletics NZ about an A and a B standard. This is an after thought because they have realised they have cocked up - as usual - by forgetting to take account of the IAAF criteria in writing the NZ selection policy The NZ selection criteria should have specified cut off dates for selection consideration - perhaps separate dates for those meeting the IAAF A standard of 20.50m and the separate NZ standard of 20.30m.

Even now the idiots of Athletics NZ have not set a specified cutoff date for final selection which is the nub of the argument being made by Jacko and his parents. How can he prepare properly when he does not know what these dates are?

If Athletics NZ had taken into account the IAAF A and B standards in its selection criteria then I am sure Jacko would have competed with the 7.26kg in December and/or January until he reached the 20.50m. He didn't because he clearly had already qualified for the Olympics according to the Athletics NZ selction criteria.

Powell wrote:Storl, Cantwell, Majewski etc. have not gotten their Olympic team berths at this point, either. Should they all also take offense at their respective national federations?


Can't comment on Storl and Majewski as I do not know the selection rules for their respective countries. However, as Cantwell is an American he clearly has no reason to complain as the USA selection rules are quite clear - unlike Athletics NZ. Meet the IAAF A standard and finish in the top 3 of the US Olympic Trials and your in the team. At least that is what I understand the selection criteria to be. If I am wrong I apologise in advance.


Gabriella wrote:If Gill wants to throw his toys out the pram then let him. No athlete is bigger than their federation or the sport. He has to follow the qualifying rules, whatever they are, like everyone else. There was/is plenty of time for him to be selected.


As noted above, and contrary to your statement Jacko did follow the published rules. It is very difficult for any athlete to follow rules that are made up on the "hoof". As great an athlete that Jacko is, he aint no mind reader.

He does not claim or given any hint that he is bigger than Athletics NZ or TnF as you suggest. If wanting certainty in selection criteria is considered to be throwing his toys out of the pram then he probably has plenty of company from other athletes.

Throwers Podcast wrote:
Gill, at a very young age, is carving out a reputation in the images of Bruch and Oldfield, the two greatest characters of our sport. A new "rebel" for even casual fans to latch onto.

Personally, from what little I have seen, I, too, find Gill's training methods dangerous. The fact that he dropped out of school (with his parents' blessing) at the age of 16 in order to train full time is ridiculous. And, frankly, NZ Athletics was right not to include him in the initial selection - he hasn't thrown far enough to be a contender. But taking my personal feelings out of it, Gill's 2012 season is fascinating theater and is far from over.


Different? Yes. Rebel? I don't think so - at least not yet. But if the adminstrators of TnF in NZ don't pick up their game it may not be lpng before he does become a rebel.

Dropping out of school? In NZ it is legal to leave school at age 16. Not advisable but legal to do so. However, is Jacko unusual in being an athlete who drops out of school at age 16? For TnF the answer is very clearly yes. But there are plenty of international class athletes who drop out of school in other sports; especially tennis, which has legions of kids not going to school at age 16.

And finally I think Podcast is spot on with his prediction re Gill 2012. Stay tuned because I am sure he has lots more to show us this year. As long as (as we all worry about) doesn't injure himself.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mump boy » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:45 am

Tuariki wrote:
mump boy wrote:He's only just 17 years old competing in an event that only improves with maturity, he needs to get back in school, stop messing about on youtube and concentrate on winning the olympics in 8 years time.

What's the rush, apart from David Storl no one on the youth to Jnr all time SP list has achieved anything of note as a senior, i'd prefer to see him competing at the 2028 Olympics than the 2012.


Mump - what a "dorky" comment.

Thank God for Bob Mathias you weren't around to stop him displaying his immaturity at, ironically, London in 1948.

And why does he have to wait till 2020 to concentrate on the Olympics. With your standards I guess you would have stopped Usain Bolt as well.

The reality is that Gill is capable of throwing well over 21m this year. Whether he will or not remains to be seen. However, I saw him thow a legal warm up on 4 December 2011 that measured 20.75m. The kid is a complete phenom - even more so than Storl.

And you want him to wait till 2020!!

I for one hope that he smashes Storls junior record at Barcelona and then a few days later goes on to thrown 21m and then hopefully that will convince him to change his mind.


i didn't say he should wait till 2020 to go to the Olympics, i'd be more than happy to see him in Rio but i think it is more likely that he could win in 2020.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mump boy » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:56 am

leoesharkey wrote:The best Juniors youths not making it through to seniors????????

" no one on the youth to Jnr all time SP list has achieved anything of note as a senior, i'd prefer to see him competing at the 2028 Olympics than the 2012."

Matson, Long, Carter, Beyer, Kiselyev, Andrei, Blinoh, Barnes were all top juniors who dominated as seniors, have a look through the all time lists


I did, none of them are on it

http://www.iaaf.org/statistics/toplists ... etail.html

and i wouldn't use Randy Barnes as an example for anything :?
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Jon » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:41 am

That's the list for the junior weight shot (which only became the standard junior implement in the past decade or so). Before then, juniors used the senior weight shot. The all-time list for that implement is here:
http://www.tilastopaja.org/db/toplist.p ... d=0&top=20
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mump boy » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:42 am

Jon wrote:That's the list for the junior weight shot (which only became the standard junior implement in the past decade or so). Before then, juniors used the senior weight shot. The all-time list for that implement is here:
http://www.tilastopaja.org/db/toplist.p ... d=0&top=20


Fair enough but most of the people leoesharkey mentioned aren't on that list either !!
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Tuariki » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:29 pm

leoesharkey wrote:The best Juniors youths not making it through to seniors????????

Matson, Long, Carter, Beyer, Kiselyev, Andrei, Blinoh, Barnes were all top juniors who dominated as seniors, have a look through the all time lists


mump boy wrote:Fair enough but most of the people leoesharkey mentioned aren't on that list either !!


Matson,Carter, Beyer, and Kiselyev are still on the list of the current alltime best juniors. 4 out of 8.

With their high school performances being what they were, I am confident that Long and Barnes were on the list of top juniors back in their days. Andrei I am not sure about although I imagine he probably was as well. Blinoh - I have no idea who this person is.

However,I agree absolutely with mump about Randy Barnes. It is just a pity they can't take away his records and medals.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Rye Catcher » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:18 pm

It would have been nice to see Jacko in the Olympics, but I don't think he would have medaled. What really amazes me is the incompetence of the NZ Olympic committee. One would think a small country like New Zealand would be overjoyed to have a young 17 yr old, who has accomplished the B mark represent them at the games. Are they afraid he will steal the limelight from Adams? How PC is that? In any case 2016 and 2020 will be his banner years.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Pego » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:05 pm

Tuariki wrote:Blinoh - I have no idea who this person is.


I am nearly certain it is Belonog.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mal » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:11 pm

Lot of comments made by people who don't live in NZ, don't understand their culture, and look at it through their puckered personal lens.

When I grew up in Australia, the only reason to go to school past 3 rd year high school was to go to University. The only reason for that was to be a Dr, Lawyer, or some such qualification. The rest went to trades and life.

Not a bad thing when you compare it to the US where too many people go to college, too many take out crippling loans, and there is too little value received.

I hope JG gets everything he points himself at. I suggest the more staid among you just enjoy what he is doing. He seems to be his own man. I am sure he has excellent guidance in NZ who believe he is getting the best out of his personality.

As for the athletic associations, small countries, big countries. The people who run them are all about their own agendas and care little for the athlete. Never been any different.

The crap about no athlete is bigger than the federation - is just that. The federations are unnecessary without the athletes. Especially prodigious talents like this kid. While I appreciate the volunteers who turn up, no came to watch the guy on the wind guage.

I hope this kid gets to the London Olympics. It would be a breath of fresh air around all the prima donnas and welfare athletes.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby derby_county » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:28 pm

Vault-emort wrote: I'm surprised Aths NZL haven't been more encouraging.

I, on the other hand, am not the least bit surprised :roll:

In fact I believe I mentioned to a few people that even though Jacko had apparently met the qualification criteria you could never trust that ANZ would accept that as definite. When they failed to notify ANYONE that this was not definite my cynicism relented, but it turns out I was right all along.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mump boy » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:23 am

Rye Catcher wrote:It would have been nice to see Jacko in the Olympics, but I don't think he would have medaled. What really amazes me is the incompetence of the NZ Olympic committee. One would think a small country like New Zealand would be overjoyed to have a young 17 yr old, who has accomplished the B mark represent them at the games. Are they afraid he will steal the limelight from Adams? How PC is that? In any case 2016 and 2020 will be his banner years.


what does that even mean ??

I would suggest they are concerned for his long term development and health, as any good federation would be
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mump boy » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:25 am

derby_county wrote:
Vault-emort wrote: I'm surprised Aths NZL haven't been more encouraging.

I, on the other hand, am not the least bit surprised :roll:

In fact I believe I mentioned to a few people that even though Jacko had apparently met the qualification criteria you could never trust that ANZ would accept that as definite. When they failed to notify ANYONE that this was not definite my cynicism relented, but it turns out I was right all along.


was anyone else selected in the first round with just 1 B qualifier ? or did they just make an exception for Jacko ?
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby dec7000 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:11 am

Athletics NZ press release:
Initial Track and Field athletes announced for London Olympics

27/03/2012 1:56:00 p.m.

Four athletes were named on Sunday by the New Zealand Olympic Committee as part of an initial athletics team to represent New Zealand at the London Olympic Games. Valerie Adams (shotput), Nick Willis (1500m), Kimberly Smith (marathon) and Stuart Farquhar (javelin) are all in strong contention to contribute to New Zealand’s 100th Olympic medal at London 2012.
Overnight results from Europe means an additional athlete is expected to join this group within days. 50km race walker Quentin Rew from Wellington (27) met the IAAF ‘A’ standard at a race meet in Dudince, Slovakia with a time of 3h 58m 48s. This result was eleven seconds inside the standard. The New Zealand Olympic Committee expects to receive his nomination for selection this week.
Athletics selectors also named an additional group of athletes at the announcement today which includes shot put junior world champion Jacko Gill, Commonwealth Games silver medal winning decathlete Brent Newdick, distance runner Adrian Blincoe and Commonwealth Games 800m and 1500m silver medallist Nikki Hamblin. These athletes have met selection standards while either current form or competition for their single B-category spots in the Olympic team stands in the way of formal selection until the qualification period ends on July 8.
New Zealand Olympic Committee Secretary General and selector Kereyn Smith said she was delighted to have named the first members of the London Olympic athletics team.
“Adams, Willis, Smith and Farquhar are all realistic medal prospects and will contribute to not only New Zealand’s London medal count, but also to New Zealand’s proud athletics history,” she said.
“This morning’s news about Quentin was a great boost and takes us back to Kiwi Norman Read winning gold in the gruelling 50km walk at the 1956 Melbourne Olympic Games.
It’s also fantastic to have such a talented group of athletes in Brent, Nikki, Adrian and Jacko so close to both nomination and selection. We’ll be monitoring their progress as London 2012 approaches,” Smith added.
Adams currently holds the Olympic, World and World Indoor titles and is gunning for a repeat of her Beijing 2008 performance in London. Beijing Silver Medallist Nick Willis is ranked world number seven in the 1500m and is considering a late-season attempt at qualifying for the 5000m. Commonwealth Games silver medallist Stuart Farquhar’s official rankings put him at 17th while Smith, who finished sixth in the New York Marathon last year, sits at 28th on performance alone but is capable of placing much higher.
Rew’s overnight quest to meet the ‘A’ standard saw him finish ninth in the field. He placed 24th at the 2011 Athletics World Championships in Daegu, Korea. Daegu was his first major international meet.
Convenor of Athletics New Zealand selectors Graham O’Brien said it was tough on the athletes who had met selection standards but could not yet be named. “With just one B-category athlete permitted per country, the Athletics NZ selectors did not believe it fair to close off selection with still more than 100 days to games time.”
Both Gill and Newdick are fending off competition for their single B-category spots. Timaru shot putter Tom Walsh is getting close to meeting the selection criteria with his best throw of 18.83m, 1.47m off the standard. Decathlete Scott McLaren remains several hundred points off the selection standard but is committed to staying in the hunt for a spot.
Hamblin and Blincoe, while both meeting IAAF ‘A’ qualification standards, need to prove current form as stipulated New Zealand Olympic Committee selection criteria, developed in conjunction with Athletics New Zealand. Hamblin is recovering from a bursitis injury and Blincoe is awaiting the start of the American season in May.
Rew’s nomination to the New Zealand Olympic Committee would be confirmed and actioned by Athletics NZ as soon as possible.
Athletics NZ also said that in the countdown to the opening of the Olympic Games in London, a number of additional athletes may yet have their names submitted to the New Zealand Olympic Committee.
“There is a strong pool of talent sitting just outside the New Zealand Olympic Committee selection criteria,” said O’Brien. “There’s an exciting race for a spot in women’s heptathlon between Sarah Cowley, Rebecca Wardell and Veronica Torr and there is a chance our women’s 1500m may have an additional entry with Lucy Van Dalen taking the NCAA indoor championships recently.
“Kenya-based Jake Robertson is working hard towards a 5000m spot and hurdler Andrea Miller has recovered from a spinal injury and will be back racing again this month in Europe.”
Athletics is currently New Zealand’s top medal-performing sport having won 20 Olympic medals (nine gold, two silver, nine bronze), including our first medal won at the London Olympic Games in 1908 (Harry Kerr, bronze, 3500m track walk).
Athletics New Zealand selectors will consider the case of athletes who meet the IAAF ‘A’ Standard immediately. The New Zealand Athletics Team for the Olympic Games qualification cut-off date of July 8 2012.

http://www.athletics.org.nz/Article.aspx?ID=8500

Seems fair enough to me provided criteria were known well in advance. Who knows what may happen in the next few months, we might see him in London yet?
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Rye Catcher » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:45 am

"Timaru shot putter Tom Walsh is getting close to meeting the selection criteria with his best throw of 18.83m, 1.47m off the standard."

1.47m is a little under 5 feet, not exactly "getting close to meeting the selection criteria". What are the chances there will be more NZ committee members at London than competing athletes? I know, I know, I know, I know, they are there to support the athletes, wink, wink. Wait til they find out the Brits chased all the hookers off.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Rye Catcher » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:59 am

mump boy wrote:
Rye Catcher wrote:what does that even mean ??

I would suggest they are concerned for his long term development and health, as any good federation would be


Just what everyone wants, a committee to be concerned and tell them what to do. Maybe he wants to do nothing more than make a big splash as a 17 year old, come back home and get a great education as a doctor and help people. How would the committee feel about that?

As you may have gleaned, I don't care much for committees. Life is simple, set the qualifying mark, if you make it, you go, if you don't, stay home. Kissing some committee member's butt not required.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby bushop » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:21 am

Pen pushers don't give a toss about Gill
by Chris Rattue 5:30 AM Wednesday Apr 4, 2012
"The 17-year-old Gill had qualified more than well enough for the London Games, and there was absolutely no downside to him going. He should have been backed to the hilt but instead, as his father Walter said, ANZ blundered and left the young athlete "gutted", no doubt by many things including the lack of respect and faith."
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby gibson » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:44 am

just can't let this one go.

gill putted last year 20.36 meters at 17 years.
:mrgreen: and silver last games olympics went @ 21.09.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics

any reasonable idiot can see there is a "shot" for gill at age 18 for a medal.
as he's been advancing what? a meter or two every year?
which is not to say he's a betting favorite to do so.

like a good referee, athletics new zealand should not be noticed, they are not part of the sport. they are just there to do the little things to make it happen for the athletes and the fans of the sport.

below find gills rap sheet...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacko_Gill
^ "2010 World Junior Championships in Athletics: Men's shot put (final)". IAAF. Retrieved 2010-07-21.
^ "Kiwi wins gold at world junior athletics championships". Fairfax New Zealand Limited. 21 July 2010. Retrieved 2010-07-21.
^ IAAF Youth All-time Shot Put list
^ McMurran, Alistair (28 March 2011). "Athletics: Gill adds to shot put world record collection". Otago Daily Times. Retrieved 6 October 2011.
^ IAAF Junior All-time Shot Put list
^ a b "Athletics: Jacko's massive throw an absolute thriller". nzherald. Retrieved 2011-04-24.
^ Woodcock, Fred (8 July 2011). "Jacko Gill sets sight on London Olympics medal". Stuff.co.nz. Retrieved 6 October 2011.
^ IAAF: QUALIFICATION SYSTEM – GAMES OF THE XXX OLYMPIAD
^ 2012 Olympic Games - London: Selection Criteria
^ "Athletics: Gill grabs Olympics qualifier". nzherald. Retrieved 2011-12-05.
^ "Teen sets record, attains Olympic standard". stuff.co.nz. Retrieved 2011-12-05.
^ ,IAAF World Youth Championships: Boys Shot Put Final - Gill beyond 24m, three times!
^ "Athletics: NZ shot putter Jacko Gill breaks world record". nzherald. Retrieved 2011-12-25.
^ Circle-this-name "Jacko Gill: Circle this name". Sunday Star Times. 20 December 2009. Retrieved 2010-07-2
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Flumpy » Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:53 am

bushop wrote:Pen pushers don't give a toss about Gill
by Chris Rattue 5:30 AM Wednesday Apr 4, 2012
"The 17-year-old Gill had qualified more than well enough for the London Games, and there was absolutely no downside to him going. He should have been backed to the hilt but instead, as his father Walter said, ANZ blundered and left the young athlete "gutted", no doubt by many things including the lack of respect and faith."


This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?

He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

It's only the first week of April. How many people know for certain yet that they will be competing at the Olympics(Especially with only a B standard)? Most won't know for about 3 months.

If he's this much of a diva at age 17 who know what he'll be like as an adult.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Dave » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:11 am

Flumpy wrote:
bushop wrote:Pen pushers don't give a toss about Gill
by Chris Rattue 5:30 AM Wednesday Apr 4, 2012
"The 17-year-old Gill had qualified more than well enough for the London Games, and there was absolutely no downside to him going. He should have been backed to the hilt but instead, as his father Walter said, ANZ blundered and left the young athlete "gutted", no doubt by many things including the lack of respect and faith."


This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?

He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

It's only the first week of April. How many people know for certain yet that they will be competing at the Olympics(Especially with only a B standard)? Most won't know for about 3 months.

If he's this much of a diva at age 17 who know what he'll be like as an adult.


He is 17. He has physical maturity that far outstrips his age. Perhaps we can cut him some slack that his emotional maturity may not be quite so far ahead of his age.

Most 17 year olds do grow up. They don't all do it at 17.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Marlow » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:12 am

Flumpy wrote:This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?
He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

Yet . . . on the other hand . . . they've got a real live T&F PHENOM on their hands and now they're getting negative press over it. Why not just make a great PR gesture and name him on the first ballot just for the feel-good PR? If he goes, medal or no (odds still long against it), he is still a great story for NZ.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Dave » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:38 pm

Marlow wrote:
Flumpy wrote:This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?
He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

Yet . . . on the other hand . . . they've got a real live T&F PHENOM on their hands and now they're getting negative press over it. Why not just make a great PR gesture and name him on the first ballot just for the feel-good PR? If he goes, medal or no (odds still long against it), he is still a great story for NZ.


Plus, if it doesn't go well, then get gets a good deal of experience that will make him all the more formidable in 4 years.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Flumpy » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:43 pm

Marlow wrote:
Flumpy wrote:This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?
He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

Yet . . . on the other hand . . . they've got a real live T&F PHENOM on their hands and now they're getting negative press over it. Why not just make a great PR gesture and name him on the first ballot just for the feel-good PR? If he goes, medal or no (odds still long against it), he is still a great story for NZ.


So the national federation should give in to the whims of a truculent teenager? What sort of message does that send?

And so what if they're getting bad press. It like saying CVC should drop Tiffany Porter because The Daily Mail think she's 'plastic'.

I'm pretty certain he'll be picked at a later date, there is no reason for this controversy at the moment.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby leoesharkey » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:04 pm

Mump Boy if you love the sport you should know this stuff, it's fascinating , Matson one of the best in the world as a junior, 20.20 as a junior in the early 1960s which is what about 22.80 today!!! Long, world class as a high schooler, imagine a high schooler throwing 22.50 plus today!!!,Carter 20.65 at 18!!! Beyer 19.73 at 17 !! 22.03 with the 6.25kg !! Olympic champ WR Holder, Blinoh,european senior and olympic champion , , Kiselyev Olympic champion, Andrei Olympic champion, Barnes 21.88m at 19!!!!!

The all time junior list just doesn't cover some or most of the greatest junior putters ever!
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby leoesharkey » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:12 pm

I meant the IAAF 6k list, I see Jordan Clark is the only thrower on the Tilastopaja junior lists for both Shot and Discus...
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Marlow » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:15 pm

Flumpy wrote:
Marlow wrote:
Flumpy wrote:This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?
He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

Yet . . . on the other hand . . . they've got a real live T&F PHENOM on their hands and now they're getting negative press over it. Why not just make a great PR gesture and name him on the first ballot just for the feel-good PR? If he goes, medal or no (odds still long against it), he is still a great story for NZ.


So the national federation should give in to the whims of a truculent teenager?

I did NOT say it was for Gill at all - it's for the greater Olympic community that would love a glimpse of this legit WORLD phenom on the largest stage.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby bushop » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:51 pm

leoesharkey wrote:Matson one of the best in the world as a junior, 20.20 as a junior in the early 1960s which is what about 22.80 today!!! Long, world class as a high schooler, imagine a high schooler throwing 22.50 plus today!!!
What do you mean here? 22.80m (74'9")? 22.50m (73'10")?

leoesharkey wrote:The all-time junior list just doesn't cover some or most of the greatest junior putters ever!
Would you agree that most of the top high school shot putters (12 pound) have not become world class shot putters with the 7kg ball?
Last edited by bushop on Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Tuariki » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:41 pm

New Zealand Olympic Committee pleading with Jacko to change his mind.

Today's NZ Herald reports:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=10797144

What might help is if Atheletcis NZ admit they screwed up.

Flumpy wrote:
This whole contrived drama is ridiculous. What has he got to be 'gutted' about?

He hasn't been left off the team. No one has said he not going (Other than himself) He simply hasn't been named in the first wave of selections. What's the problem?

It's only the first week of April. How many people know for certain yet that they will be competing at the Olympics(Especially with only a B standard)? Most won't know for about 3 months.

If he's this much of a diva at age 17 who know what he'll be like as an adult.


Flumpy wrote:
So the national federation should give in to the whims of a truculent teenager? What sort of message does that send?

And so what if they're getting bad press. It like saying CVC should drop Tiffany Porter because The Daily Mail think she's 'plastic'.

I'm pretty certain he'll be picked at a later date, there is no reason for this controversy at the moment.


Flumpy - you don't know what you are talking about.

After Jacko met the Olympic B standard when he threw 20.01m in April 2011, Athletics NZ said that wasn't good enough as the NZ standard was higher. At that time they hadn't published the NZ selection criteria. They then published the criteria and the only thing Jacko had to do to get on the team was to throw 20.30m.

Athletics NZ did not publish in their selection criteria that the IAAF A standard was also part of the NZ selction criteria. Of course the IAAF A standad had to be part of the selection criteria because Athletics NZ cannot overrule the IAAF. But it was not part of the published selection criteria - it was an after thought when they realised the IAAF crteria had to be factoredin as well.

(Mind you maybe I am wrong here and perhaps they initially thought they could overrule the IAAF - Don't forget the Athletics NZ adminstrators who wroteup the selection rules are same bozos who decided to introduce a rule last year that would prevent a certain then 16 year old phenom from competing in the senior division of the NZ shot put champs - never mind that he was the NZ senior recordholder)

Athletics NZ did not publish a cut off timeframe for performances. They did not publish the fact that the team would be announced in stages. So when the team was announced Jacko had every right to expect to be named in that team - as did decathlete Brent Newdick. They had both met the selection criteria as published.

There was nothing mentioned previously about having to wait in case someone else met the NZ 20.30m standard.

With the logic used for Jacko then why did Athletics NZ not also wait till July in case 3 more 1500m runners met the A standard? Then we would have had 4 to choose from and maybe Nick Willis might not be picked.

If Athletics NZ had intended to have staggered selection announcements because of the IAAF A standard then they should have published these as part of the selection criteria.

The only diva in these comments is you flumpy. You should well know that top international class athletes base there training around a fixed schedule determined by such things as firm selection criteria. The fact that the USA hasn't selected its team is notat all relevant. All USA athletes know exactly what they have to do to be selected and when they have to do it. They have certainty. With NZ it is a changing and moveable feast.

Athletics NZ administrators should stand up and be counted, They should apologise and admit they screwed up.

Like everyone else I hope that Jacko does change his mind. I hope that he throws 23m at the world juniors and then a few days later throws 21m with the 7.26kg - and then agrees to go to London.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Rye Catcher » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:10 pm

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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby mump boy » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:32 am

Tuariki wrote:Flumpy - you don't know what you are talking about.

After Jacko met the Olympic B standard when he threw 20.01m in April 2011, Athletics NZ said that wasn't good enough as the NZ standard was higher. At that time they hadn't published the NZ selection criteria. They then published the criteria and the only thing Jacko had to do to get on the team was to throw 20.30m.

Athletics NZ did not publish in their selection criteria that the IAAF A standard was also part of the NZ selction criteria. Of course the IAAF A standad had to be part of the selection criteria because Athletics NZ cannot overrule the IAAF. But it was not part of the published selection criteria - it was an after thought when they realised the IAAF crteria had to be factoredin as well.

(Mind you maybe I am wrong here and perhaps they initially thought they could overrule the IAAF - Don't forget the Athletics NZ adminstrators who wroteup the selection rules are same bozos who decided to introduce a rule last year that would prevent a certain then 16 year old phenom from competing in the senior division of the NZ shot put champs - never mind that he was the NZ senior recordholder)

Athletics NZ did not publish a cut off timeframe for performances. They did not publish the fact that the team would be announced in stages. So when the team was announced Jacko had every right to expect to be named in that team - as did decathlete Brent Newdick. They had both met the selection criteria as published.

There was nothing mentioned previously about having to wait in case someone else met the NZ 20.30m standard.

With the logic used for Jacko then why did Athletics NZ not also wait till July in case 3 more 1500m runners met the A standard? Then we would have had 4 to choose from and maybe Nick Willis might not be picked.

If Athletics NZ had intended to have staggered selection announcements because of the IAAF A standard then they should have published these as part of the selection criteria.

The only diva in these comments is you flumpy. You should well know that top international class athletes base there training around a fixed schedule determined by such things as firm selection criteria. The fact that the USA hasn't selected its team is notat all relevant. All USA athletes know exactly what they have to do to be selected and when they have to do it. They have certainty. With NZ it is a changing and moveable feast.

Athletics NZ administrators should stand up and be counted, They should apologise and admit they screwed up.

Like everyone else I hope that Jacko does change his mind. I hope that he throws 23m at the world juniors and then a few days later throws 21m with the 7.26kg - and then agrees to go to London.


Has anyone else with 1 B standard been selected ? if not have the others with 1 B standard thrown their toys out the pram and refused selection at a later date ?

Edit: i've answered my own question

They have only selected 4 people in the first round, a reigning champion, a reigning silver medallist, a 85m Commonwealth Games silver medallist, world championship finalist Javelin thrower and a 2.25 marathon runner who holds every national record from 3k to marathon.

who all have A qualifiers

So the question remains, have any of the other athletes with B qualifiers who didn't get selected in the first round, refused to be considered in a later round of selections ?
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Giant Panda » Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:07 am

He could always move to Kiribati and run the 100m.
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Re: Junior Male Shot Put 2012 [No Olys for Gill (for now)]

Postby Dave » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:54 am

Rye Catcher wrote:NZ Athletics backtracking.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=10797144


Looks like the kid and his family played this well.
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