¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

[Novianv2]

Ok, I don't want to get into a war of words but 7-sided, have your ever hurdled? I ask this b/c if you have, you'd have to ask yourself if grabbing another hurdler mid-race during a WC final while you are running essentially 13 flat is actually on the top of your mind. Note the word "intentionally".

Anyway, I agree with most here – a great race and I can't wait to see them do it again next year!

[26mi235]

That Liu was impeded is unassailable. The rest is the proper assessment in terms of the rules and their application. It did not seem that the contact had any adverse effect on Robles

Any competing athlete who jostles or obstructs another athlete, so as
to impede his progress, shall be liable to disqualification from that
event.

No 'deliberate' in this clause.

As for the best athlete winning, if you false start are you the best athlete? If you impeded someone does it have to be deliberate and how do you tell deliberate and does it matter if it is careless (which seems that it might be in this case).

[3]

Post-race quotes on/by Liu:

Liu: When I approached the ninth hurdle, Robles pulled me. It made me slow down

Liu: I lost my balance when I came to the 10th hurdle because of the bump. If not for the incident, I would been the gold medalist.

Liu: Robles hit me twice, at the ninth hurdle he pulled at me but I'm sure it wasn't intentional.

Allen Johnson: That's hurdling, it happens all the time, it just so happens that this time it happened to the two fastest hurdlers ever at the world championship

Close-ups of the entanglement:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00t ... 6/610x.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0aw ... L/610x.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gl ... 4/610x.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0fQ ... 4/610x.jpg

[bruce3404]

Robles cements his place in history

Yeah, as a colossal ass with that pre-race posturing. After seeing that, I was hoping he'd FS.

[croflash]

Post-race quotes on/by Liu:

Liu: When I approached the ninth hurdle, Robles pulled me. It made me slow down

Liu: I lost my balance when I came to the 10th hurdle because of the bump. If not for the incident, I would been the gold medalist.

Liu: Robles hit me twice, at the ninth hurdle he pulled at me but I'm sure it wasn't intentional.

Allen Johnson: That's hurdling, it happens all the time, it just so happens that this time it happened to the two fastest hurdlers ever at the world championship

Close-ups of the entanglement:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00t ... 6/610x.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0aw ... L/610x.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gl ... 4/610x.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0fQ ... 4/610x.jpg

Well, that second picture is pretty conclusive, really unfortunate for everyone. As a fan of Robles, unfortunately I have to admit that you can make the case he deserved to be disqualified even though there have been worse indicents in hurdling before. Just sucks because Liu still doesn't win the race, Richardson is forced into gold when he wouldn't have finished higher than third if not for the contact and Robles either would have won or finished second.

Just a terrible finish to the third day.

[26mi235]

GIven the pictures (two posts above) Liu was not over to the edge of his lane and Robles was enough that his foot is over Liu's hurdle. It might be that arms go around in the hurdles, but you have to still be responsible for what you do or the choices get worse.

I think that the pictures show that Liu would likely have won the race (he was also making up ground at the time, in addition to being slightly ahead at this juncture).

Question: in the fourth picture, Liu's lead foot is further down but his trail leg has his foot further back than Robles, whose knee is also much higher than Liu's. Does this demonstrate Liu's superior hurdling technique?

[mojo]

Very wrong decision. And like I said I very much wanted Liu to win.

DH is 6"5 and used to weight 200 pounds (yes he is lighter now). Never ran a hurdle race where there was not contact with someone- you fight through it. Yes Robles did affect Liu but not intentionally or blatantly.

People making these decisons (and I have a feeling a friend of ours was in on this as she is there as a track referee) have not hurdled.


Such a great race ruined.

[7-sided]

Ok, I don't want to get into a war of words but 7-sided, have your ever hurdled? I ask this b/c if you have, you'd have to ask yourself if grabbing another hurdler mid-race during a WC final while you are running essentially 13 flat is actually on the top of your mind. Note the word "intentionally".

Anyway, I agree with most here – a great race and I can't wait to see them do it again next year!

Certainly, you're not implying that I would have had to have once run hurdles to see that Robles obviously impeded Liu? He grabbed him, it was intentional and whether he was running 13 seconds or 14 seconds he knew what he was doing...slowing Liu.

Very wrong decision. And like I said I very much wanted Liu to win.

DH is 6"5 and used to weight 200 pounds (yes he is lighter now). Never ran a hurdle race where there was not contact with someone- you fight through it. Yes Robles did affect Liu but not intentionally or blatantly.

People making these decisons (and I have a feeling a friend of ours was in on this as she is there as a track referee) have not hurdled.


Such a great race ruined.

You're wrong! He did it on purpose. And, again, having hurdled or not having hurdled has little to do with whether it's apparent - to you. Bill Bellicheck never played football.

Also, the people making the decisions are probably lifelong track officials who have dedicated a significant portion of their free time to this sport; they should be given a bit more respect from someone who has done the same.

[Daisy]

One thing I noticed was that Robles was not celebrating the win. Presumably he was worried about what had happened.

[Marlow]

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0awNcYtgHbcWL/610x.jpg
Well, that second picture is pretty conclusive, really unfortunate for everyone.

Have to agree (don't wanna). As said above, arms hit in the hurdles; it's part of the event. But, for Liu to be totally in his lane, and Robles not, I think they HAD to make that decision.

My question is, why are they so averse to order a rerun (with Robles out)? The Referee can do that.

[efua ninsin]

this race should be rerun

i wonder why some think it was intentional, how in God's name are you while focusing on the line and clearing hurdles going to decide intentionally to impede another athlete. makes no sense

[7-sided]

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0awNcYtgHbcWL/610x.jpg
Well, that second picture is pretty conclusive, really unfortunate for everyone.

Have to agree (don't wanna). As said above, arms hit in the hurdles; it's part of the event. But, for Liu to be totally in his lane, and Robles not, I think they HAD to make that decision.

My question is, why are they so averse to order a rerun (with Robles out)? The Referee can do that.

It's not just that he was in Liu's lane, it's that he started the race on the opposite side and only drifted to that side as Liu drew level with him. This happens in hurdling and it's part of the "game", but like a DB pulling on a receiver, it's NOT unintentional, and sometimes it must be called. Liu had a great comeback win ruined.

this race should be rerun

i wonder why some think it was intentional, how in God's name are you while focusing on the line and clearing hurdles going to decide intentionally to impede another athlete. makes no sense

Mostly by the movement of his arms pre-incident...he was "fishing"; feeling for contact.

[Marlow]

Mostly by the movement of his arms pre-incident...he was "fishing"; feeling for contact.

Not at all. Hurdlers don't want to touch; it could just as easily be themselves that are thrown off by it.

[7-sided]

Mostly by the movement of his arms pre-incident...he was "fishing"; feeling for contact.

Not at all. Hurdlers don't want to touch; it could just as easily be themselves that are thrown off by it.

Disagree completely! Hurdlers don't want to touch but when the only way you can slow the other person is to jostle, bump grab them then you just might do it...and many hurdlers have - on purpose. This isn't new, it isn't all incidental.

[Top_end_speed]

This championship is not useful in determining who is best at what thus far.

Why? Because the faves are going down? hahahahahaha...The meet is great. One shouldn't FS and people will be DQ'd...It happens in all sports. get over it. Congrats JR...

Nobody false started in this race

[jazzcyclist]

Ok, I don't want to get into a war of words but 7-sided, have your ever hurdled? I ask this b/c if you have, you'd have to ask yourself if grabbing another hurdler mid-race during a WC final while you are running essentially 13 flat is actually on the top of your mind. Note the word "intentionally".

Certainly, you're not implying that I would have had to have once run hurdles to see that Robles obviously impeded Liu? He grabbed him, it was intentional and whether he was running 13 seconds or 14 seconds he knew what he was doing...slowing Liu.

Yes Robles did affect Liu but not intentionally or blatantly.

People making these decisons (and I have a feeling a friend of ours was in on this as she is there as a track referee) have not hurdled.

You're wrong! He did it on purpose. And, again, having hurdled or not having hurdled has little to do with whether it's apparent - to you. Bill Bellicheck never played football.

Novianv2 and Mojo,
it is my understanding of the rule that it doesn't make difference whether the impedement was intentional or not, and shouldn't be less referees get in the business reading minds.

7-sided,
FYI, Bill Belichick played both high school and college football. Furthermore, a person who has hurdled at any level would be in a much better position to recognize normal hurdling movement than a person who has never hurdled. However, intent is irrelevant IMO, so I agree with you on the larger point, that the decision to DQ Robles was the proper one, since he had no business with his feet in Xiang's lane and he clearly did impede him. It may be normal to have your hands in the adjacent lanes in a hurdles race, but the feet is a different matter.

[PCSExponent]

7-sided, I have no idea why you're so sure this was intentional. And I haven't seen any video or photo showing obvious 'grabbing'.
Having said that, I have to admit that given the images posted the decision was correct. The contact was entirely in Liu's lane. Never the less, Perry's infraction in 2007 was far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far worse.

[jazzcyclist]

Hurdlers don't want to touch but when the only way you can slow the other person is to jostle, bump grab them then you just might do it...and many hurdlers have - on purpose.

Has any hurdler ever expressed this to you or have you ever done it yourself?

[Giant Panda]

Does anybody have a working link to the slow motion aerial footage of the whole incident?

[marknhj]

Does anybody have a working link to the slow motion aerial footage of the whole incident?

Look on letsrun; very clear and multiple replays from head on. Robles had to be disqualified and it may well have been intentional (although that doesn't matter). From his immediate reaction after the finish it looks like Robles knew exactly what he'd done.

[7-sided]

Hurdlers don't want to touch but when the only way you can slow the other person is to jostle, bump grab them then you just might do it...and many hurdlers have - on purpose.

Has any hurdler ever expressed this to you or have you ever done it yourself?

YES and YES!

[DJG]

As I mentioned on the Current Events -Oliver's form post.
It is quite possible that Robles moved to the right of the lane to avoid being hit by Oliver in the lane to his left. Oliver is well known to hug the right side of his lane. I don't think Robles wanted to get smacked by Oliver.

Q.) are the lanes too narrow for the size (width) of these athletes? Hurdlers are generaly of the larger body-type.

[mojo]

Hurdlers don't want to touch but when the only way you can slow the other person is to jostle, bump grab them then you just might do it...and many hurdlers have - on purpose.

Has any hurdler ever expressed this to you or have you ever done it yourself?

That is so assinine that I will now dismiss your opinion on anything to do with hurdles.

[mojo]

Tweet by David Oliver. I think he outta know:



People who think Robles did it on purpose are crazy and haven't seen his races, late in races he's been getting wide with his arms


Hurdles is a battle- you have to deal with other people hitting them, people falling, hitting into you-it is the nature of the beast.
If you can't handle it you have no business being out there. Love Liu (one of my fav athletes of all time) but that is the way it goes in men's hurdles in particular. Unless the guy blatantly grabs you, and in 50 years of watching hurdles my husband has never seen an intentional grab nor have I,you deal with it.
It is what makes the race exciting and unpredictable. Saw Allen Johnson quoted somewhere saying it was the wrong ruling too. We stand in good company.

[3]

As I mentioned on the Current Events -Oliver's form post.
It is quite possible that Robles moved to the right of the lane to avoid being hit by Oliver in the lane to his left. Oliver is well known to hug the right side of his lane. I don't think Robles wanted to get smacked by Oliver.

Robles had his back to Oliver after the first hurdle.

[7-sided]

mojo, unsure if you are addressing me or Jazz, but if it's me that you're talking about then I'm hardly impressed by the knowledge of race tactics by a club-level hurdler who now coaches athletes of the same caliber. (hurdlers don't do it, but Perry did?)

[jazzcyclist]

Hurdlers don't want to touch but when the only way you can slow the other person is to jostle, bump grab them then you just might do it...and many hurdlers have - on purpose.

Has any hurdler ever expressed this to you or have you ever done it yourself?

That is so assinine that I will now dismiss your opinion on anything to do with hurdles.

I'm confused! Were you responding to my question or 7-sided's take on the dirty secrets of hirdling?

[Daisy]

From his immediate reaction after the finish it looks like Robles knew exactly what he'd done.

This was my impression. I think he knew the DQ was coming.

[mojo]

mojo, unsure if you are addressing me or Jazz, but if it's me that you're talking about then I'm hardly impressed by the knowledge of race tactics by a club-level hurdler who now coaches athletes of the same caliber. (hurdlers don't do it, but Perry did?)

I was talking to you.

I am pretty sure my husband and I know much more about hurdling than you do no matter what level we coach at the present time.

I will concede to many on most events but not hurdles.

DH has coached Olympians by the way. If you looked at his website I dare you to say he does not know hurdles inside and out. He has no time for forums like these but if he did he could talk circles around you when it comes to any aspect of the event.

That said, what is a foul is open to discussion and if you take the rules literally then there would be a disqualification in just about every mens hurdle race. The officals made their decsison and though I deeply disagree I understand where they are coming from.

ANY athlete who spends time trying to win by grabbing or intentionally impeding another is one lousy hurdler. If you or any one else coaches people to do that then you have no business being in the sport.
I do not think Perry did it on purpose by the way -it was the way she hurdled and it was annoying.

More tweets by Oliver certainly suggest he is against the DQ.

[marknhj]

Tweet by David Oliver. I think he outta know:

eople who think Robles did it on purpose are crazy and haven't seen his races, late in races he's been getting wide with his arms

Hurdles is a battle- you have to deal with other people hitting them, people falling, hitting into you-it is the nature of the beast.
If you can't handle it you have no business being out there. Love Liu (one of my fav athletes of all time) but that is the way it goes in men's hurdles in particular. Unless the guy blatantly grabs you, and in 50 years of watching hurdles my husband has never seen an intentional grab nor have I,you deal with it.
It is what makes the race exciting and unpredictable. Saw Allen Johnson quoted somewhere saying it was the wrong ruling too. We stand in good company.

Does this come from the school of thinking from the good ole days when men were men and sheep were scared? Of course Robles had to be disqualified, he grabbed Liu and altered the course of the race as he was being overtaken. Whether it was deliberate or not can't be answered, but in this case it certainly looked like it could have been. Fouls have to be called when technology allows it.

[DJG]

As I mentioned on the Current Events -Oliver's form post.
It is quite possible that Robles moved to the right of the lane to avoid being hit by Oliver in the lane to his left. Oliver is well known to hug the right side of his lane. I don't think Robles wanted to get smacked by Oliver.

Robles had his back to Oliver after the first hurdle.

Yes, and he knew for sure that Oliver would not be catching up?

[7-sided]

mojo, unsure if you are addressing me or Jazz, but if it's me that you're talking about then I'm hardly impressed by the knowledge of race tactics by a club-level hurdler who now coaches athletes of the same caliber. (hurdlers don't do it, but Perry did?)

I was talking to you.

I am pretty sure my husband and I know much more about hurdling than you do no matter what level we coach at the present time.

I will concede to many on most events but not hurdles.

DH has coached Olympians by the way. If you looked at his website I dare you to say he does not know hurdles inside and out. He has no time for forums like these but if he did he could talk circles around you when it comes to any aspect of the event.

That said, what is a foul is open to discussion and if you take the rules literally then there would be a disqualification in just about every mens hurdle race. The officals made their decsison and though I deeply disagree I understand where they are coming from.

ANY athlete who spends time trying to win by grabbing or intentionally impeding another is one lousy hurdler. If you or any one else coaches people to do that then you have no business being in the sport.
I do not think Perry did it on purpose by the way -it was the way she hurdled and it was annoying.

More tweets by Oliver certainly sggest he is against the DQ.

mojo/club-level coach, when challenged you can certainly be a 5-letter with the best of them but you're a 4-letter for sure. You first say the banging and beating is part of the game and then talk about lousy hurdling? Why would a good hurdler be outside of their lane?

First you attempt to assess my knowledge of hurdling by marrying your knowledge to your husband and then distributing his experience. Pathetic. What you and your husband know about hurdle technique is NOT in question, what you know about race tactics is (the same goes on in DL mid-distance racing) - though the paucity of male hurdlers coming from Canada now should tell me exactly how good you are as a hurdles coach.

So you there you have it, I admitted to having done it; it too was a spur of the moment, I can't believe I did that type of thing - even though it was in retaliation. But it doesn't take from the fact that I did it and it was done at full speed. So before you go quoting Allen Johnson if he thought it was the right call, ask him if hurdlers grab each other on purpose? Then ask Mark Crear, Roger Kingdom, and a host of others. Then ask other top hurdlers and they will tell you, hell yes, it goes on, and sometimes it's on purpose. That's something you would NEVER know while you, mojo, regurgitate hurdle theory from the latest seminar or paper or harken back to your days of national ineptitude.

signed, lousy hurdler who has competed at NCAA's, IAAF World Championships and Olympics.

[DJG]

The video, to my eyes, shows Robles' grabbing Liu's wrist coming off the 9th hurdle as they take the step after touching down. The tell-tale sign is that Robles' normal hand postion is basically closed-hand. The fact that his fingers open up before the grab shows intent to me.

Hurdlers do grab, and most often get away with it. I respect Oliver's point-of-view about incidental contact. Left-leg lead next to right-leg lead, contact is almost inevitable.
I would imagine he gives it out more than he gets.

The hurdler is responsible for the hurdle in his lane. He is responsible for his arm swing not impeding the runner in the next lane as well.

Verdict: Correct call. Robles DQ upheld. Liu most likely would have won.

[vip]

I bet for no other reason, Richardson is thrilled with his bonus for winning the gold medal. Can you imagine his negotiations with Nike way back when? The company probably said: "Yeah, we'll give you a million bucks for a WC gold" probably figuring Richardson wouldn't even make the US team.

[Trackrunner]

Correct call on the part of the officials and yes I believe Robles actions were intentional. Intentional however does not mean premeditated. It was in the heat of battle so to speak where one often acts without reflecting on what one is doing. He was clearly reaching for Liu as Liu pulled up even and moved slightly ahead of him - I will not let this dude run by me. The clincher for me are his actions after the race when he hugged Liu as if he had his back. It seemed canned to me and it would be interesting to hear what Robles has to say himself about the race.