¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

[DecFan]

I'm prettyy sure no one has answered my questions from about 3 pages back:
1. who protested?
2. was a protest required, or could officials DQ off their own bat?

And bonus question:
3. why no re-race??

I too would like to know the answers to these questions, particularly the 3rd. Since no one thinks Richardson would have won had the incident not taken place, isn't this the most compelling case for rerunning the event (sans Robles)?

[uakari]

but how would they re-run the race? if there was any justice, liu would have the gold and richardson silver, but fouls happen in the middle distances and they don't get re-run. remember burka-rodriguez and jamal-tomasheva incidents. the aggressors got DQ but their victims don't get redress (nor did kallur).

from what they said on univ. sp, and i think here, there was a chinese protest, and a cuban appeal, which was denied.

in my book, robles is a dirty runner and i hope he falls flat on his ass in london. i'm no longer a fan of his. he's like a drug cheat to me.

[AS]

in my book, robles is a dirty runner and i hope he falls flat on his ass in london.

I find the retributive vitriol around here astounding... was losing the WC title not enough 'payback' for you?

Personally I hope he comes back out in London and races Liu again and that we have a clean race
where we can actually find out who is the fastest...

It remains unclear to me that Liu would have "certainly" won... he still had to navigate the final hurdle, as did Robles... a lot could still have happened...

[Dutra]

Robles grabbed Liu. He didn't just place his arm or hand in front of him. He certainly pulled him back. Now as to whether it was intentional or not I'm not sure however what other explanation is there for grabbing the arm of another runner in the race?

[Vielleicht]

As I mentioned on the Current Events -Oliver's form post.
It is quite possible that Robles moved to the right of the lane to avoid being hit by Oliver in the lane to his left. Oliver is well known to hug the right side of his lane. I don't think Robles wanted to get smacked by Oliver.

Q.) are the lanes too narrow for the size (width) of these athletes? Hurdlers are generaly of the larger body-type.

Actually the Chinese athlete Jiang Fan said that he was smacked by Oliver in the semi even before the first hurdle...

[7-sided]

trackonthe brain-you and I see it the same way.(and so far many top hurdlers seems to agree including Liu).

7 sided-your gracious apology has thrown me off balance. Thank you.

I was certainly being a "4-letter" (or a "5-letter" ) and I'm appreciative of you accepting my sincere apology.

7 sided, your position is without merit. For those who have hurdled, it happens in literally every hurdles race. Every race. It is not intentional at all. When you run hurdles, you fluctuate between being off balance and on balance throughout the race. Your arms steady you when you need to regain balance. If they flail, it's because they are needed to right your balance when you probably have only 2 steps to get it together before you have to deal with the next hurdle - all while going at breakneck speed. Believe me, at those speeds, there is no way you are intentionally impeding the next runner.

You may drift from one side of your lane to the other due to this balance issue. And when you are running at low 13's the sensation is that the hurdles are coming at you very quickly - almost too quick for you to react. In addition to the competition.

Further, when you hurdle at that level, you have learned to focus on only your lane a long long time ago. There is just so much going on in a hurdles race that you have to be a focused person to even do well in the event. You are trying to maximize your output rather than being concerned about the runner next to you. Many times, you don't even know how you finished until after the race.

Without merit? I'm not sure if you have a pent up need to use the term but I can assure you that you used it incorrectly. Knowing that I have spoken to other hurdlers who have admitted it makes me wonder why you feel the need to inject your "expertise" into this? I can only imagine that the reason why you are "expounding" on this is that you want to "out" yourself - your hurdling abilities, if you have them- and that's fine, but trying to speak for all the other hurdlers, that's stupid.

When you mention things like "when you hurdle at that level, you learn to..." its patronizing. You may not see it as such so I'm letting you know. Also, if it doesn't happen, if a hurdler only has time to worry about his lane, if he's only "trying to maximize your output rather than being concerned about the runner next to you..." then how do you account for 1987 Indianapolis?

If you have hurdled at a high (enough) level [not that I believe anyone has to], you KNOW that this goes on in 110h (and I'm sure it went on when there were 120h); if you know some of the top players in the 110h they will readily admit this to you - that some of the contact is not incidental, some will even laugh about it (it's amazing what athletes will admit over their favorite adult beverage(s) when they're looking back); and if you knew these things were true, and they are, then you would never post that my position does not have merit. It may not be universal, but it has merit. If this last paragraph comes off as a little patronizing, trust me, I think I know how you feel.

[Marlow]

When you mention things like "when you hurdle at that level, you learn to..."

Here's what I DO know. I have been hurdling every year for over 45 years. I have been coaching hurdles for the last 20. I have been to many more hundreds of meets. I have hit others and been hit. I have seen people hit others. But NEVER . . . have I seen or heard of someone DELIBERATELY hitting another hurdler with an arm or hand. The chances are just as good that the hitter will be knocked off stride as the hittee. Unimpeded arm motion is ESSENTIAL to one's balance, whether you're giving it or getting it. Now maybe, just maybe, it HAS happened (surely it MUST have, somewhere, sometime) and you have been in it or seen it, but . . . I watched the replay several times, from several angles, and Robles did NOT do that intentionally. Of that I am certain.

From Liu:

"Robles hit me twice, at the ninth hurdle he pulled at me, but it wasn't intentional," former Olympic champion Liu told reporters.

[mojo]

Hurdling for 45 years is simply remarkable Marlow.

And again I totally agree.

Liu is a class act. Note he is not commenting on the DQ issue -only a few hurdlers have said anything about that. DO said that Liu told him after "this is all only a game". (meaning the sport not the DQ thing)

Very classy tweets by DO by the way.

[jazzcyclist]

But NEVER . . . have I seen or heard of someone DELIBERATELY hitting another hurdler with an arm or hand.

I take it that you don't take 7-sided at his word that he has deliberately hit another hurdler?

I watched the replay several times, from several angles, and Robles did NOT do that intentionally. Of that I am certain.

The folks who are "certain" that Robles' foul was unintentional have no more basis for their claim than the folks who are "certain" that Robles' foul was intentional, unless of course you happen to be psychic. Believing something is different than knowing it. There is a difference.

[Dutra]

When you mention things like "when you hurdle at that level, you learn to..."

Here's what I DO know. I have been hurdling every year for over 45 years. I have been coaching hurdles for the last 20. I have been to many more hundreds of meets. I have hit others and been hit. I have seen people hit others. But NEVER . . . have I seen or heard of someone DELIBERATELY hitting another hurdler with an arm or hand. The chances are just as good that the hitter will be knocked off stride as the hittee. Unimpeded arm motion is ESSENTIAL to one's balance, whether you're giving it or getting it. Now maybe, just maybe, it HAS happened (surely it MUST have, somewhere, sometime) and you have been in it or seen it, but . . . I watched the replay several times, from several angles, and Robles did NOT do that intentionally. Of that I am certain.

I can certainly understand whacking the guy in the next lane with a flailing arm unintentionally however how does one explain grabbing and pulling another runner in the same fashion?

[26mi235]

It was careless at the least, especially after whacking him on 9, the same action in the same position is going to have a similar result and the whacking/holding is even worse on 10.

If you impede the other runner you are subject to disqualification (see clause 2 cited above). It does not mean that you will be DQ'd but if he is there is really no recourse; almost no one here thinks he did not impede Liu. Ergo, DQ is appropriate, and given the impact on the race, required to avoid a further injustice to Liu.

[JRM]

Having seen the race from a few angles, I am surprised at the number of regular posters who think this was intentional foul play by Robles. His left arm is clearly swinging outward several strides before. It seems clear to me he hits Liu (twice) only by unfortunate circumstance.

When you're sprinting at top speed, the last thing on your mind is to CONSCIOUSLY grab someone -- in fact, that's an absolutely ridiculous assertion, and I'm surprised to see it being advanced by hardcore fans of the sport. You might tell yourself to *catch* them (i.e. run faster), but not physically impede them. Most likely, you're going to throw your own race in the process, risk DQ, etc.... I can only imagine this would be an even more difficult task while you're trying to negotiate hurdles (especially if you've hit one or two).

And lastly, Robles had so much animosity toward Liu that after having to destroy his gold chances by grabbing his arm and holding him back, he covers it up with a friendly hug (and probably apology) immediately afterward? Wouldn't he have simply walked away instead?

Watch for Ato Boldon's comments on the Universal feed. He spells it out quite clearly, a position supported by other top hurdlers (Allen Johnson, DO, etc...): an accident that unfortunately happens too often in the hurdles, and nothing more.

[tm71]

having watched the race live last night i did not think too much of the contact at first and yeah sometimes hurdles brush each other, but having watched the race numerous times since then i feel that the dq was correct given the fact robles hurdled over liu's hurdle and he bumped and grabbed him at least twice, the latter being the one that knocked off his stride and likely cost him the gold. of course ato had a different opinion on the matter and he is the ultimate authority lol !

[JRM]

having watched the race live last night i did not think too much of the contact at first and yeah sometimes hurdles brush each other, but having watched the race numerous times since then i feel that the dq was correct

Yes, of course the DQ was deserved. Lane infraction, interfering with another athlete, etc...

... of course ato had a different opinion on the matter and he is the ultimate authority lol !

Maybe I missed it, but I'm pretty sure Ato's opinion was as I stated above: the contact was unintentional. I don't think he argued that there shouldn't have been a DQ.

[Jacksf]

I don't know what the hell you guys are looking at!
Robles grabbed Liu.
Yes, guys bump into each other during races, but Robles obviously reached out and grabbed Liu.
His arm motion on the grab was exaggerated and different than his usual moton on the other hurdles.
There's no doubt about it.
It was probably an instantaneous decision, but it was deliberate.

[bman]

It was careless at the least, especially after whacking him on 9, the same action in the same position is going to have a similar result and the whacking/holding is even worse on 10.

If you impede the other runner you are subject to disqualification (see clause 2 cited above). It does not mean that you will be DQ'd but if he is there is really no recourse; almost no one here thinks he did not impede Liu. Ergo, DQ is appropriate, and given the impact on the race, required to avoid a further injustice to Liu.

This is untrue clearly unless it is a typo. Robles's fingers are spread over 9 and he grabs and pulls, on 10 the arm is tighter and the hand is closed. They actually hit fists it looks to me like.

I am leaning against this being done with intent, but what I do not have an answer for are these two questions: why was Robles's lead arm action wider on 8 and 9 than it was on every other hurdle in the race, when coincidentally that was when he was being overtaken from the right? Can't be because he hit a hurdle because he hit 8 and was clean on 9, yet was even wider with his lead arm on 9. And the second question, which is the hardest to explain away, is why was his hand closed on every hurdle except for 8 and 9? Very suspicious but not conclusive.

[26mi235]

And lastly, Robles had so much animosity toward Liu that after having to destroy his gold chances by grabbing his arm and holding him back, he covers it up with a friendly hug (and probably apology) immediately afterward? Wouldn't he have simply walked away instead?

That was when he was still listed as the winner, not after his DQ. Look at the discomfort of Liu in the contact with DR at that moment.

[Jacksf]

Unless the guy blatantly grabs you, and in 50 years of watching hurdles my husband has never seen an intentional grab nor have I

?

In Robles' case, Liu hit the hurdle before the bump. That's what knocked him off balance. So his arms were probably flailing a bit to right himself. Meanwhile Robles, being big and long, was running on the edge of his hurdle and their arms collided. Had Liu not hit the hurdle before the bump, they probably would have never touched. But it happens in every race and is a necessary evil for hurdlers. Put another way, most hurdlers don't cry about it - or fight about it.

This all is only happening because such major titles are on the line - not to mention the money that is at stake.

TOB, please watch the video!
Nothing you are saying here makes sense at all. You've reached a conclusion based on your experience and not what happened. Watch the video!!!
Robles grabbed Liu before Liu hit the hurdle! Liu hit the hurdle because of Robles. And he was thrown off balance because Robles grabbed him, not because he hit the hurdle.
Robles tried to grab Liu after the 8th hurdle, then did grab him just after the 9th hurdle, and then bumped him after the 10th hurdle.
Notice how his hand is open and REACHING out on those hurdles, but not on the 10th hurdle.
Maybe it was a weird reaction to feeling Liu moving past him, but it was still, obviously deliberate one.
Just watch the video.

[mump boy]

mojo, unsure if you are addressing me or Jazz, but if it's me that you're talking about then I'm hardly impressed by the knowledge of race tactics by a club-level hurdler who now coaches athletes of the same caliber. (hurdlers don't do it, but Perry did?)

I was talking to you.

I am pretty sure my husband and I know much more about hurdling than you do no matter what level we coach at the present time.

I will concede to many on most events but not hurdles.

DH has coached Olympians by the way. If you looked at his website I dare you to say he does not know hurdles inside and out. He has no time for forums like these but if he did he could talk circles around you when it comes to any aspect of the event.

That said, what is a foul is open to discussion and if you take the rules literally then there would be a disqualification in just about every mens hurdle race. The officals made their decsison and though I deeply disagree I understand where they are coming from.

ANY athlete who spends time trying to win by grabbing or intentionally impeding another is one lousy hurdler. If you or any one else coaches people to do that then you have no business being in the sport.
I do not think Perry did it on purpose by the way -it was the way she hurdled and it was annoying.

More tweets by Oliver certainly sggest he is against the DQ.

mojo/club-level coach, when challenged you can certainly be a 5-letter with the best of them but you're a 4-letter for sure. You first say the banging and beating is part of the game and then talk about lousy hurdling? Why would a good hurdler be outside of their lane?

First you attempt to assess my knowledge of hurdling by marrying your knowledge to your husband and then distributing his experience. Pathetic. What you and your husband know about hurdle technique is NOT in question, what you know about race tactics is (the same goes on in DL mid-distance racing) - though the paucity of male hurdlers coming from Canada now should tell me exactly how good you are as a hurdles coach.

So you there you have it, I admitted to having done it; it too was a spur of the moment, I can't believe I did that type of thing - even though it was in retaliation. But it doesn't take from the fact that I did it and it was done at full speed. So before you go quoting Allen Johnson if he thought it was the right call, ask him if hurdlers grab each other on purpose? Then ask Mark Crear, Roger Kingdom, and a host of others. Then ask other top hurdlers and they will tell you, hell yes, it goes on, and sometimes it's on purpose. That's something you would NEVER know while you, mojo, regurgitate hurdle theory from the latest seminar or paper or harken back to your days of national ineptitude.

signed, lousy hurdler who has competed at NCAA's, IAAF World Championships and Olympics.

You may well have competed at the Olympics but you'd win no medals for chivalry. You're one aggresive, rude and ill mannered poster. Whether you agree with Mojo's point of view or not your responses are frankly disgusting.

Seeing as you have already admitted to purposefully cheating in races it doesn't suprise me that you're lacking in any sense of decency

[gh]

OK kids, play nice or the playground monitor is going to have to close the sandbox.

Meanwhile, I finally got a chance to view super-slo-mo video a couple of times. I don't see how it can be called anything but a blatant grab. Didn't take long for the Jury of Appeal to come to that conclusion either.

(and no, it's not remotely like the Perry case in Osaka)

[Jacksf]

Thanks Gary!
Some people just don't want to believe that athletes will "cheat".
But they do it regularly.
Nobody should be surprised. Athletes are competitive by nature, and sometimes they get carried away and use poor judgement.
Robles grab was intentional.
Case closed!!!

[Smoke]

Amazing how with video some people still dont see the truth.

1 - when DR pulled his lead arm back he does open his hand.
2 - it was a grab but not an intentional one to throw off his opponent, the contact threww him to the right, into Liu's lane
3 - he did not grab him at ten because after the initial hit he closed his hand BUT he was already too far to the right, and elbowed Liu
4 - I believe he was dq'd for impeding Liu at ten not the contact at 9. You will see DR's trail leg going over Liu's hurdle as they make contact.
5 - The reaction at the finish is one of regret not guilt. He knew full well he had hit his hand, and then elbowed him at ten and stopped him in his tracks. Hurdlers do battle but no one wants to take their competitor out of the race
6 - I know of a well known hurdler that most definitely grabbed other hurdlers, on purpose. He has a sick sense of humor like that. I also know of a hurdler that would change folks blocks if they did not pay attention. One of the best ever was feared, because he had a wild arm and if he hit you, you were going to feel it.

My personal opinion is the dq is warranted but I wouldnt have filed a protest. Hurdling is a contact sport. BUT i cannot say I would feel the same if Liu or Jason was my athlete.

Lastly, that move Liu was on when Robles hit him was unprecedented! He was flying over the last 3 hurdles. It was amazing to watch.

[gh]

Thanks Gary!
Some people just don't want to believe that athletes will "cheat".
But they do it regularly.
Nobody should be surprised. Athletes are competitive by nature, and sometimes they get carried away and use poor judgement.
Robles grab was intentional.
Case closed!!!

Let me reopen the case slightly. It will never happen for a variety of political/enconomic reasons, but to me this is a clear case where a re-run should be ordered (w/ Robles not in it), so that Liu has a chance to get the gold that was stolen from him. It's more important, methinks, that he is done fairly by than Robles is punished.

[3]

Liu loses a $30,000 reward for being dragged into 2nd rather than placing 1st.

[proofs in the pudd'in]

Yes, I know the rules do not allow it, but that is how I see it and I do not think it would be outside the judicial capabilities of those involved.

Since you admit that the rules don''t allow it, are you suggesting that the officials should go outside the rules to award the medals?

No, but there could be some flexibility or discretion if they wanted to include such a provision. But I was mainly just giving my stupid humble opnion - Lui deserves the Gold!

[acquiredtaste7]

One more vote for "it looked intentional." This youtube clip at 3:08 is pretty convincing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YDPyqz_FIs

Sure looks to me like Robles was reaching out to grab Liu. He missed on the 8th hurdle, then connected right before the 9th, causing Liu to stumble and hit the hurdle. Then there was more contact right afterward. Wow.

[7-sided]

You may well have competed at the Olympics but you'd win no medals for chivalry. You're one aggresive, rude and ill mannered poster. Whether you agree with Mojo's point of view or not your responses are frankly disgusting.

Seeing as you have already admitted to purposefully cheating in races it doesn't suprise me that you're lacking in any sense of decency

I, and quite a few others, are overcome with humor anytime you, or your brother have the audacity to call anyone else aggressive, rude or disgusting when its become a calling card of sorts for the two of you. You even attempted to change a single event into an ethos, all the while holding yourself up as beyond reproach.

Well, you may consider yourself part of the human race but a good percentage of the earth finds the lifestyle that you live to be reprehensible and considers you to be a repugnant reprobate for being a homosexual; they would sooner hit you in the head with a brick and kill you than show you a modicum of accomodation. And though there are people who think the killer would have been doing a service to humanity, I would expect that person be brought to justice and punished in the strongest possible way for that crime, because it's just wrong. But I would be glad that you were dead.

-your brother in disgust, 7-sided

P.S. you umps need to lighten up.

[Marlow]

2 - it was a grab but not an intentional one to throw off his opponent, the contact threw him to the right, into Liu's lane

Exactly. It is a 'grab' but hardly intentional. It's a self-defense mechanism.

[jazzcyclist]

Meanwhile, I finally got a chance to view super-slo-mo video a couple of times. I don't see how it can be called anything but a blatant grab. Didn't take long for the Jury of Appeal to come to that conclusion either.

(and no, it's not remotely like the Perry case in Osaka)

Well, there you have it. The verdict is final. Mojo and Marlow won't be too happy about this. I guess the Pollyannas of the world have a hard time accepting that people cheat. Who was it that said, "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin', and it's only cheatin' if you get caught"?

[trevorp]

Well, you may consider yourself part of the human race but... [Disgusting screed] ...

-your brother in disgust, 7-sided
P.S. you umps need to lighten up.

Even if this is intended to be ironic (which I hope, although it is not clear) it is utterly vile.

[7-sided]

Well, you may consider yourself part of the human race but... [Disgusting screed] ...

-your brother in disgust, 7-sided
P.S. you umps need to lighten up.

Even if this is intended to be ironic (which I hope, although it is not clear) it is utterly vile.

You DEFINITELY need to lighten up.

[TxHottrack]

Congrats J Richardson!!!

[7-sided]

2 - it was a grab but not an intentional one to throw off his opponent, the contact threw him to the right, into Liu's lane

Exactly. It is a 'grab' but hardly intentional. It's a self-defense mechanism.

Marlow the verdict is running slightly towards those of us who believe that Robles did it intentionally. It doesn't mean that we're right and you are wrong; it doesn't mean that we're wrong and that you're right - what is agreed is that he should have been dq'd. IMO, when you have unintentional contact, you move from it, Robles moved towards it. He wanted to make sure that he had sufficiently impeded Liu. He only knew that once he was in Liu's lane and his arm had held him back for the 2nd time. As Smoke admits, there are some hurdlers who will concede that they've done it (I previously referenced 1987 Indianapolis...).

Again, Marlow, it's not all self-defense. Sometimes, in the heat of the moment, people do things that they ordinarily wouldn't do.

[kevinsdad]

A number of people here continue to insist the contact was unintentional on Robles' part, but not one has tried to explain why Robles ran with a closed fist through 7 hurdles, opened his hand up and extended his arm further on the 8th and 9th, when Liu was passing him, and then closed his fist again on the 10th after successfully disrupting Liu's momentum. If you can't provide a plausible explanation for this, then your defense is worthless, in my opinion.

[jazzcyclist]

You may well have competed at the Olympics but you'd win no medals for chivalry. You're one aggresive, rude and ill mannered poster. Whether you agree with Mojo's point of view or not your responses are frankly disgusting.

Seeing as you have already admitted to purposefully cheating in races it doesn't suprise me that you're lacking in any sense of decency

I don't see why you would revisit this dust-up after 7-sided and mojo have already put this behind them. Mojo made what 7-sided felt were condescending comments towards him, 7-sided retaliated by throwing a couple of low blows at mojo before later on apologizing, and mojo graciously accepted his apology. Case closed.