¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!


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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby DJG » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:44 am

3 wrote:
DJG wrote:As I mentioned on the Current Events -Oliver's form post.
It is quite possible that Robles moved to the right of the lane to avoid being hit by Oliver in the lane to his left. Oliver is well known to hug the right side of his lane. I don't think Robles wanted to get smacked by Oliver.


Robles had his back to Oliver after the first hurdle.


Yes, and he knew for sure that Oliver would not be catching up?
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby 7-sided » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:57 am

mojo wrote:
7-sided wrote:mojo, unsure if you are addressing me or Jazz, but if it's me that you're talking about then I'm hardly impressed by the knowledge of race tactics by a club-level hurdler who now coaches athletes of the same caliber. (hurdlers don't do it, but Perry did?)



I was talking to you.

I am pretty sure my husband and I know much more about hurdling than you do no matter what level we coach at the present time.

I will concede to many on most events but not hurdles.

DH has coached Olympians by the way. If you looked at his website I dare you to say he does not know hurdles inside and out. He has no time for forums like these but if he did he could talk circles around you when it comes to any aspect of the event.

That said, what is a foul is open to discussion and if you take the rules literally then there would be a disqualification in just about every mens hurdle race. The officals made their decsison and though I deeply disagree I understand where they are coming from.

ANY athlete who spends time trying to win by grabbing or intentionally impeding another is one lousy hurdler. If you or any one else coaches people to do that then you have no business being in the sport.
I do not think Perry did it on purpose by the way -it was the way she hurdled and it was annoying.

More tweets by Oliver certainly sggest he is against the DQ.

mojo/club-level coach, when challenged you can certainly be a 5-letter with the best of them but you're a 4-letter for sure. You first say the banging and beating is part of the game and then talk about lousy hurdling? Why would a good hurdler be outside of their lane?

First you attempt to assess my knowledge of hurdling by marrying your knowledge to your husband and then distributing his experience. :lol: Pathetic. What you and your husband know about hurdle technique is NOT in question, what you know about race tactics is (the same goes on in DL mid-distance racing) - though the paucity of male hurdlers coming from Canada now should tell me exactly how good you are as a hurdles coach. :roll:

So you there you have it, I admitted to having done it; it too was a spur of the moment, I can't believe I did that type of thing - even though it was in retaliation. But it doesn't take from the fact that I did it and it was done at full speed. So before you go quoting Allen Johnson if he thought it was the right call, ask him if hurdlers grab each other on purpose? Then ask Mark Crear, Roger Kingdom, and a host of others. Then ask other top hurdlers and they will tell you, hell yes, it goes on, and sometimes it's on purpose. That's something you would NEVER know while you, mojo, regurgitate hurdle theory from the latest seminar or paper or harken back to your days of national ineptitude.

signed, lousy hurdler who has competed at NCAA's, IAAF World Championships and Olympics.
Last edited by 7-sided on Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby DJG » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:58 am

The video, to my eyes, shows Robles' grabbing Liu's wrist coming off the 9th hurdle as they take the step after touching down. The tell-tale sign is that Robles' normal hand postion is basically closed-hand. The fact that his fingers open up before the grab shows intent to me.

Hurdlers do grab, and most often get away with it. I respect Oliver's point-of-view about incidental contact. Left-leg lead next to right-leg lead, contact is almost inevitable.
I would imagine he gives it out more than he gets.

The hurdler is responsible for the hurdle in his lane. He is responsible for his arm swing not impeding the runner in the next lane as well.

Verdict: Correct call. Robles DQ upheld. Liu most likely would have won.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby vip » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:01 am

I bet for no other reason, Richardson is thrilled with his bonus for winning the gold medal. Can you imagine his negotiations with Nike way back when? The company probably said: "Yeah, we'll give you a million bucks for a WC gold" probably figuring Richardson wouldn't even make the US team.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Trackrunner » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:02 am

Correct call on the part of the officials and yes I believe Robles actions were intentional. Intentional however does not mean premeditated. It was in the heat of battle so to speak where one often acts without reflecting on what one is doing. He was clearly reaching for Liu as Liu pulled up even and moved slightly ahead of him - I will not let this dude run by me. The clincher for me are his actions after the race when he hugged Liu as if he had his back. It seemed canned to me and it would be interesting to hear what Robles has to say himself about the race.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby 7-sided » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:05 am

Trackrunner wrote:... Intentional however does not mean premeditated...

Exactly!
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby toyracer » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:07 am

When I was watching it live in tv, I had the immediate impression that Liu was moving ahead and then somehow inexplicably slammed on the air brakes. When the replay was shown I understood why I had that impression. And, in addition to the hand contact on Liu causing an imbalance, Robles' foot seemed to clear Liu's hurdle as well, indicating another infraction if I understand the rules correctly.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby 8aldP|23 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:09 am

DJG wrote:The video, to my eyes, shows Robles' grabbing Liu's wrist coming off the 9th hurdle as they take the step after touching down. The tell-tale sign is that Robles' normal hand postion is basically closed-hand. The fact that his fingers open up before the grab shows intent to me.

Hurdlers do grab, and most often get away with it. I respect Oliver's point-of-view about incidental contact. Left-leg lead next to right-leg lead, contact is almost inevitable.
I would imagine he gives it out more than he gets.

The hurdler is responsible for the hurdle in his lane. He is responsible for his arm swing not impeding the runner in the next lane as well.

Verdict: Correct call. Robles DQ upheld. Liu most likely would have won.


I agree. When I saw the replay, I saw Robles swing his right hand back with fingers out. This was the hurdle before he actually made contact. Seemed as if he was fishing. I don't think this is just a hurdle tactic. 2008 oly trials men 800m. KRobinson reaches back to impede C.Smith.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Daisy » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:10 am

Trackrunner wrote:The clincher for me are his actions after the race when he hugged Liu as if he had his back.

Also his lack of celebration. Shouldn't he have been jubilant after winning this race?

Actually I was surprised by Richardson's reaction too. He seemed little despondent despite getting silver. I would have expected something more a long the lines of Kim Collins winning his bronze.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Diego Sahagún » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:12 am

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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby uakari » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:24 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVcK5Ss5h5o

i just watched the above, from the BBC. i've lost a lot of respect for dayron. he's a total cheat in my book. watch the head-on replay, he's clearly, desperately grasping at liu xiang's arm. robles' hand is not in the closed position, it's clearly grabbing at his opponent's hand (just like the photo of doucoure vs. quinonez shown above). he tried it once but misses it, then a 2nd time (successfully), and then over the last hurdle, they knock arms.

liu was totally robbed of this since he was fast gaining on robles. i can't believe robles would do this, and immediately as the race was over, he grabbed and held liu as if saying "i'm sorry, i'm sorry, i don't know why i did that..." guilty, guilty, guilty.
Last edited by uakari on Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:26 am

toyracer wrote: And, in addition to the hand contact on Liu causing an imbalance, Robles' foot seemed to clear Liu's hurdle as well, indicating another infraction if I understand the rules correctly.



I wondered the same thing, but since the hurdler-types here had not discussed it I deleted my comment from an earlier reply. Also, from the still it is not clear if his foot went around the hurdle and if it went below the hurdle. This is normally a 400h issue and not a 110h/100h issue.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:28 am

Mojo, I don't know as much about hurdling as either you or 7-sided, but I will say that not everything people learn about competing in sports is learned in a controlled environment under the supervision of well-trained coaches. Stretching/breaking the rules, a.k.a. gamesmanship. is part of practically every sport, with the possible exception of golf. This is the stuff we learn on playgrounds when the coaches aren't around. For example, John Stockton is one of the dirtiest and sneakiest players in the history of the NBA, but nobody ever suggested that his coaches taught him to play this way. Personally, I don't think Robles' foul was intentional, but since 7-sided has admitted that not only has he done it, but other hurdlers have admitted to doing it as well, means that at least we have to consider the possibilty that Robles' foul was deliberate. Perhaps this sort of gamesmanship is more prevalent in some parts of the country/world than others.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Diego Sahagún » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:30 am

Dayron Robles (before DQ) after winning the 110H final at Daegu 2011 World Championships:

http://www.runnerstribe.com/event/main/ ... mpionships
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby uakari » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:31 am

well, my name is not dayron robles, but i don't know how you people can see the video (the head-on replay) and say for sure he didn't do intentionally. it's very clear to me it was intentional.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Giant Panda » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:35 am

If you watch, Robles is favouring the left hand side of his lane early and almost running into Oliver, his arm in fact swinging out at him. Mid race he corrects a little and around hurdle nine he suddenly lurches over to the right of his lane. Is this because he's grabbed Liu's arm and Liu's momentum pulls Robles across the track as it knocks Liu off balance? Maybe if Robles ran the race in a straight line he might have ran faster.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby mojo » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:38 am

No way was on it on purpose-I have watched it a billion times too.

I still would not have DQed him but I certainly see how one can come to that conclusion-obviously some very knowlegeable people agree with those of you see it as DQ.
I will never agree it was on purpose.

7 sided-good for you for having competed at the very top levels. I still doubt that guys plan aheador deliberatley hit others but if that is true it is stupid and very risky. As Oliver said- you can be the one who pays the price by doing that .(he means slowing down, losing, falling, not getting DQEed).

One thing I can do is respect different opinions so with that I bow out of this discussion.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Diego Sahagún » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:40 am

Sotomayor considera “injusta” descalificación a Robles en Mundial de Daegu:

http://www.radiohc.cu/Deportes/de-cuba/ ... daegu.html
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Re: 2011 WC: m110H—

Postby lilwayne1814 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:40 am

bruce3404 wrote:
croflash wrote:Robles cements his place in history :D


Yeah, as a colossal ass with that pre-race posturing. After seeing that, I was hoping he'd FS.


@ BRUCE, which is why I was happy when Bolt FS...I say just got to the line and race!
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Giant Panda » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:41 am

Those who don't think Robles grasped Liu's arm please explain his sudden movement to the right and not the left after they clash. The physical contact with the athlete ahead of him to the right PULLS him across his lane.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby uakari » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:42 am

mojo, well, you already made up your mind... but watch the bbc vid, and see how at 2:25, his hand starts opening as he swings to the side. up to that point, his hand is closed. his first attempt misses, but the 2nd one grabs liu's arm and then the final clashing of arms over the last hurdle.

what a coincidence that his hand started opening up at the moment when liu was passing him, when up to that point it was closed...
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Dutra » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:43 am

Watched the replay. That wasn't intentional.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Giant Panda » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:49 am

Watch the position of Robles feet on the track before and after the arm contact and explain how he drifts from the left side of the track to the right side of the track the way he does.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Dutra » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:57 am

Giant Panda wrote:Watch the position of Robles feet on the track before and after the arm contact and explain how he drifts from the left side of the track to the right side of the track the way he does.


He hit a hurdle.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Trackrunner » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:28 am

Robles was reaching for the guys hand. That opened handed running is not his style he runs with a closed fist and was running closed fisted prior to that. The contact 'conveniently' happened as Liu starts to move just ahead of him. He did it, knew he did it and hugged Liu right after the race.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby 7-sided » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:43 am

Dutra wrote:
Giant Panda wrote:Watch the position of Robles feet on the track before and after the arm contact and explain how he drifts from the left side of the track to the right side of the track the way he does.


He hit a hurdle.

He did hit some hurdles but he was relatively clean over 8 (slight brush) even while reaching out with open hand for the first time (he was running as he normally does with closed fist before then), then he reaches out with open hand and grabs Liu's arm over/after 9; he missed the first time. He then grabs Liu again over 10, this is the picture and what most have seen, but he completely disrupted Liu on 9. Watch from 3:08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YDPyqz_FIs

No different than a holding call in football. the lineman knows he's not supposed to, he's trained and coached not to, but when the defender beats him...the only thing he has left to stop the defender from crushing his QB... he holds the defender. Clipping (blocking in the back)...same thing. On purpose, not premeditated. Still a flag.

Competiveness has had the best of nearly everyone of us. Who hasn't said something they shouldn't have in a heated argument or disagreement even though they knew they shouldn't have? It happens.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby proofs in the pudd'in » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:45 am

Liu deserves Gold!!! not Silver. I do not know why, after reviewing the tape, they don't give Lui the Gold and Robles the Silver? It is clear that this is how they would have ended if not for the infraction. If it was unintentional then this seems more fair to both athletes. There is nothing that would suggest intentionality on Robles' part. :?:
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:52 am

proofs in the pudd'in wrote:I do not know why, after reviewing the tape, they don't give Lui the Gold and Robles the Silver?

:? Are you serious?
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Marlow » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:53 am

proofs in the pudd'in wrote:Liu deserves Gold!!! not Silver. I do not know why, after reviewing the tape, they don't give Liu the Gold and Robles the Silver?

That would be the 'best' solution, but not the 'fair' one, and it could never happen with the rules we have.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby proofs in the pudd'in » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:54 am

Of course I am serious - it's my opinion - all people should hold to my opinion :D
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby proofs in the pudd'in » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:58 am

Marlow wrote:
proofs in the pudd'in wrote:Liu deserves Gold!!! not Silver. I do not know why, after reviewing the tape, they don't give Liu the Gold and Robles the Silver?

That would be the 'best' solution, but not the 'fair' one, and it could never happen with the rules we have.


Yes, I know the rules do not allow it, but that is how I see it and I do not think it would be outside the judicial capabilities of those involved.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby nicest person ever » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:05 pm

uakari wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVcK5Ss5h5o



After watching this vid, it's pretty obvious that Robles needed to be DQ'd. And it's not even close.

That said, I still can't say with 100% certainity whether it was intentional or not.

It definitely LOOKED intentional, given that Robles hand was closed up until that point, and then he suddenly opens it and grabs Liu's arm like that, however, I think there is a chance that Robles just felt off balance or who knows what and opened his hand not to grab Liu, but just for unrelated reasons, and it just looked really bad and intentional the way it played out. If I had to guess I'd say probly 80% chance it was intentional, 20% chance it was unintentional, based on that vid. But no way for anyone to know with absolute 100% certainty.

In any case, intentional or not, it clearly should be a DQ regardless, given that Liu was staying in his own lane, and it was Robles that moved his arm/shoulder/leg etc into the airspace of Liu's lane, not the other way around, when the collision occurred, so, that's on Robles, and that's a DQ.

In the end, it just sucks for Liu. No fair.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Daisy » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:18 pm

7-sided wrote:mojo/club-level coach, when challenged you can certainly be a 5-letter with the best of them but you're a 4-letter for sure.

This is ridiculous. Why would you bring a disagreement down to this level?
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Pego » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:19 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:I will say that not everything people learn about competing in sports is learned in a controlled environment under the supervision of well-trained coaches


While having no dog in this fight, I'd just like to post on the margin that mojo is a former Canadian record holder in 400H, so, no, she is not just an armchair bookworm coach. She has been in the trenches for decades. I had a good fortune to meet her and her husband in Eugene and yes, they do know hurdles.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Jacksf » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:19 pm

I just watched the replay several times, and then came to the message board.
I didn't realize that there was a discussion about whether this was intentional or not; I just wanted to examine the race more closely.
It seems clear to me that Liu had already moved ahead of Robles and Richardson, and would have won the race had there been no interference.
I have never seen Liu caught on the run-in to the tape, and so I am sure that he would have won the gold medal. He has to be disappointed.
It's a shame that can't give him the gold, but I understand that the medals can't be given out based on extrapolation.
Anyway, Liu is back; and Richardson has moved to the front of US hurdling. It seems he's broken out of the pack very suddenly, but I haven't been following him.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby croflash » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:20 pm

To those who think Robles did it intentionally:

David Oliver
doliversub13 David Oliver
People who think Robles did it on purpose are crazy and haven't seen his races, late in races he's been getting wide with his arms...
5 hours ago

doliversub13 David Oliver
Hitting that 8th hurdle just made it worse and why would you do something intentionally that us going to mess you up as well
4 hours ago

http://twitter.com/#!/doliversub13


The normally fast-finishing Liu said he thought the contact was not intentional but that he would have won the gold medal without it. When Richardson was informed of Robles’s disqualification, he was in the midst of recounting his life story to reporters and reveling in the silver medal. In stunned silence, he leaned forward, covered his face and began to cry.

“My first reaction to that is it’s disappointing that somebody so great with such accomplishments was kind of robbed of the opportunity to really display his athleticism,” he said of Robles. “I respect Robles completely. Even when I wasn’t running fast, Robles always spoke and always maintained a good rapport with me.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/30/sport ... n-400.html
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby mojo » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:24 pm

By the way 7 sided this comment says much about you.




"mojo/club-level coach, when challenged you can certainly be a 5-letter with the best of them but you're a 4-letter for sure".

A woman who has a strong opinion that is different than your own gets called the c word?(and we all know that is what you mean).

Well at least I do now believe you when you say you sometimes resorted to trying knock an opponent out of a race.

I don't name call here but my DH has a few choice names for you.

And don't try and weasel out of what you meant 7sided.




As far as intentional-DO says it wasn't and I think he knows Robles well.
Last edited by mojo on Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Jacksf » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:27 pm

Jacksf wrote:I just watched the replay several times, and then came to the message board.
I didn't realize that there was a discussion about whether this was intentional or not; I just wanted to examine the race more closely.
It seems clear to me that Liu had already moved ahead of Robles and Richardson, and would have won the race had there been no interference.
I have never seen Liu caught on the run-in to the tape, and so I am sure that he would have won the gold medal. He has to be disappointed.
It's a shame that can't give him the gold, but I understand that the medals can't be given out based on extrapolation.
Anyway, Liu is back; and Richardson has moved to the front of US hurdling. It seems he's broken out of the pack very suddenly, but I haven't been following him.


Ok - watched the replay again.
I am going to agree that it was intentional. Robles suddenly swings his arm out farther and higher than before - maybe half hoping to catch Liu as Liu seems to be catching and passing him.
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby Giant Panda » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:30 pm

It's quite sweet to read a discussion in which track fans swear blind that an athlete would never knowingly cheat. A welcome tonic to the usual cynicism, and utterly bonkers :lol:
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Re: ¶2011 WC: m110H—Robles DQed; Richardson Gold!

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:33 pm

Giant Panda wrote:Maybe if Robles ran the race in a straight line he might have ran faster.


If you are talking about the difference in the length of the line he ran versus if he had run dead-on straight, I think that the differential is trivial. If you take a steel 100m tape and make it 'completely' tight so that pulling it up with a given force does not displace it and then allow one end to come in enough to pull the tape 10cms up. The amount that it has to come in is almost trivial something like 0.01cm.

Also, he missed on H8, grabbed on 9 and grabbed on 10.
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