World's Wildcard(s)•Diamond Champ•Olympic gold•Regionals


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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby bushop » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:11 pm

So the US and Kenya don't have to choose between the two.

Before the trials give one the wildcard spot...
... the other a selection spot...
... and after the trials the top-2 at the trials are also on the roster = four spots.

Sounds good for Moscow.
Last edited by bushop on Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby tandfman » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:36 pm

ZELLGADISS wrote:In Jamacain trials im sure that Bolt win run 100m and he will have wildcard for 200m like world champion.
And in 100m Blake will have wildcard like world champion and he will run 200m in trials.

It appears that you are absolutely correct. See the story now linked in the front page headline section.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby bushop » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:04 pm

What would you think if these two were given Wildcards?

Pars and Heidler win Hammer Throw Challenge
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby ATK » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:34 pm

bushop wrote:So the US and Kenya don't have to choose between the two.

Before the trials give one the wildcard spot...
... the other a selction spot...
... and after the trials the top-2 at the trials are also on the roster = four spots.

Sounds good for Moscow.

so whats the difference between a wild card spot and a selection spot?
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby tandfman » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:46 pm

ATK wrote:so whats the difference between a wild card spot and a selection spot?

There really isn't any. If an athlete has earned a wild card, his country can run a maximum four in his/her event, rather than 3. If there are two from one country with a wild card in a single event, the max is still 4, and it doesn't matter which is considered the wild card.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby Fortius19 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:01 pm

bushop wrote:What would you think if these two were given Wildcards?

Pars and Heidler win Hammer Throw Challenge


I think it would help ease the pain (a little bit) of being completely shafted by the DL/IAAF.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby GDAWG » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:43 pm

ATK wrote:
GDAWG wrote:
tandfman wrote:Problem with these "guarantee" suggestions is that they fly in the face of USATF's long-standing policy of requiring that the defending champion wild cards must compete in the Nationals in order to be on the team. USATF does that not to strengthen their team at the Worlds, but to enhance the attractiveness of their Number 1 meet of the year. That's important for a number of reasons, all related to enhancing the financial health of the US Championships (and thus of the federation itself).


And since Richardson, Merritt, Jesse Williams, Dwight Phillips, Trey Hardee, Reese Hoffa, Dawn Harper, Chaunte Lowe and Brittney Reese don't have a second event, they would all have to compete in their one event to be on the team, although Hardee can always try the one event he's best at (Although I don't remember what that is).

Dwight Phillups has competed over 100m a few times, and Chaunte Lowe competed in the long jump at 2010 nationals.


I had forgotten that Lowe had done some Long Jump. Did not know that Dwight Phillips could also run 100 meters.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby ATK » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:53 am

GDAWG wrote:
ATK wrote:Dwight Phillups has competed over 100m a few times, and Chaunte Lowe competed in the long jump at 2010 nationals.


I had forgotten that Lowe had done some Long Jump. Did not know that Dwight Phillips could also run 100 meters.

His PR is 10.06, from 2009 when he was 32!
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby shivfan » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:35 am

gh wrote:hmmm... hadn't thought of the give-em-both-a-spot scenario. I like it.

Ditto....

As said by same poster, let the others compete for the two remaining spots.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby tandfman » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:25 am

In some ways, that makes sense. It's likely to be the reality of the situation anyway. If both of those guys are in the event, I can't see both of them finishing outside the top 3, and if at least one of them is in the top 3, the rest of the field is really competing for just two open slots.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby toyracer » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:18 am

GDAWG wrote:
tandfman wrote:Problem with these "guarantee" suggestions is that they fly in the face of USATF's long-standing policy of requiring that the defending champion wild cards must compete in the Nationals in order to be on the team. USATF does that not to strengthen their team at the Worlds, but to enhance the attractiveness of their Number 1 meet of the year. That's important for a number of reasons, all related to enhancing the financial health of the US Championships (and thus of the federation itself).


And since Richardson, Merritt, Jesse Williams, Dwight Phillips, Trey Hardee, Reese Hoffa, Dawn Harper, Chaunte Lowe and Brittney Reese don't have a second event, they would all have to compete in their one event to be on the team, although Hardee can always try the one event he's best at (Although I don't remember what that is).


"Compete" is the key word. Holding a wild card, for example couldn't Hoffa simply throw once, record 15m and then stop, having fulfilled USATF's requirement?
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby toyracer » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:29 am

Bolt has been very clever by announcing that he will, in effect, give up his claim to the 100m wild card spot. Why clever? Because he now takes the edge of any claim by Ashmeade that he should be considered for the 200m wild card entry into the WC. The powers that be can now say "if Bolt can give up his why can't you give up yours?"

Ashmeade must realize that he has an uphill battle to try to push his case through. With the vivid result of the last trials still in his mind, plus the reality that there is another who is as fast as he is that also did not make the team, he finds himself having earned an exemption that he will most likely not be able to use.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby gh » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:20 am

toyracer wrote:...

"Compete" is the key word. Holding a wild card, for example couldn't Hoffa simply throw once, record 15m and then stop, having fulfilled USATF's requirement?


He could, but unlikely he will. Throwers love to throw!

And injury risk is minimal compared to sprinting.

No reason not to get out there and bang away.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby j-a-m » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:12 pm

shivfan wrote:As said by same poster, let the others compete for the two remaining spots.

You willing to implement that as a general rule, thereby changing the character of Trials? This time it happens that Merritt and Richardson are currently the two best in the world in their event, but next time that may not be the case.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby j-a-m » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:16 pm

tandfman wrote:
ATK wrote:so whats the difference between a wild card spot and a selection spot?

There really isn't any. If an athlete has earned a wild card, his country can run a maximum four in his/her event, rather than 3. If there are two from one country with a wild card in a single event, the max is still 4, and it doesn't matter which is considered the wild card.

Guess it could be relevant in that you can't just pick four athletes and not include any of the two wild card athletes. So hypothetically, if Bolt were injured and had to skip the 200, the Jamaican federation would have to give a spot to Ashmeade, and couldn't just let athletes at Trials compete for all four spots.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby j-a-m » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:18 pm

toyracer wrote:Bolt has been very clever by announcing that he will, in effect, give up his claim to the 100m wild card spot.

Sounds like a smart play for Bolt to be pro-active there.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby bushop » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:01 pm

ATK wrote:
bushop wrote:Before the trials give one the wildcard spot...
... the other a selction spot...
... and after the trials the top-2 at the trials are also on the roster = four spots.
so whats the difference between a wild card spot and a selection spot?

I hoped to use a term that would refer to what many countries do... they select (choose) some of their best athletes for the national team based on their past performances, not a trials meet place.

The US or Kenya could just say, "You're both on the team." and everyone else battle for the two remaining spots at a trials meet.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby ATK » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:56 pm

bushop wrote:
ATK wrote:
bushop wrote:Before the trials give one the wildcard spot...
... the other a selction spot...
... and after the trials the top-2 at the trials are also on the roster = four spots.
so whats the difference between a wild card spot and a selection spot?

I hoped to use a term that would refer to what many countries do... they select (choose) some of their best athletes for the national team based on their past performances, not a trials meet place.

The US or Kenya could just say, "You're both on the team." and everyone else battle for the two remaining spots at a trials meet.

Yea I understand, but you just separated them as if they were different. Unless the selection spot (either WC or DL winner) has equal chance of not being picked as an athlete who has done neither in the previous two years, then they are both wild cards.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby tm71 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:31 pm

gh wrote:hmmm... hadn't thought of the give-em-both-a-spot scenario. I like it.

I was being sarcastic when i said that Usatf would wait after the meet to decide. Certainly they should make a decision before hand so Merritt and Richardson would not have to risk
Injury. If it were up to me i would pick both based on their competitive record the last two seasons.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby Tuariki » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:14 pm

bushop wrote:
ATK wrote:
bushop wrote:Before the trials give one the wildcard spot...
... the other a selction spot...
... and after the trials the top-2 at the trials are also on the roster = four spots.
so whats the difference between a wild card spot and a selection spot?

I hoped to use a term that would refer to what many countries do... they select (choose) some of their best athletes for the national team based on their past performances, not a trials meet place.

The US or Kenya could just say, "You're both on the team." and everyone else battle for the two remaining spots at a trials meet.

I believe the USA, Jamaica, Kenya and any other country that has 2 wild cards should grant both wild card athletes their automatic right of entry as long as both have met the A standard. The other athletes then compete for the 2 remaining spots.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby j-a-m » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:25 am

Tuariki wrote:The other athletes then compete for the 2 remaining spots.

This would be unfair to all those athletes that didn't get to compete in the DL because they didn't get invited. This is even more true for collegiate athletes and recent graduates.

It's difficult enough for them as it is to make the team, coming off the long collegiate season, and having to deal with all those NCAA regulations. Reducing the number of available spots would punish collegiate athletes (and recent graduates) for having competed in college instead of turning pro and trying to get into invitational DL events.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby ATK » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:18 am

j-a-m wrote:
Tuariki wrote:The other athletes then compete for the 2 remaining spots.

This would be unfair to all those athletes that didn't get to compete in the DL because they didn't get invited. This is even more true for collegiate athletes and recent graduates.

It's difficult enough for them as it is to make the team, coming off the long collegiate season, and having to deal with all those NCAA regulations. Reducing the number of available spots would punish collegiate athletes (and recent graduates) for having competed in college instead of turning pro and trying to get into invitational DL events.

That's assuming Merris and Richardson do not make the top 3 at trials. If just one of them makes the top 3, then the other 2 "new" athletes go as if nothing has changed, along with merrit and richardson
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby j-a-m » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:50 am

ATK wrote:That's assuming Merris and Richardson do not make the top 3 at trials. If just one of them makes the top 3, then the other 2 "new" athletes go as if nothing has changed, along with merrit and richardson

You're right, in the 110h with Merritt and Richardson this is probably not gonna be an issue; I was more considering this as a general rule.

Hypothectically, had Felix won the 200 WC two years ago (not that unrealistic), then such a rule would mean both her and Charonda Williams would be automatically qualified. Then an athlete like K. Duncan would have to compete for only two spots, which would punish her for competing collegiately instead of getting invited to DL races.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby toyracer » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:39 am

Tuariki wrote:I believe the USA, Jamaica, Kenya and any other country that has 2 wild cards should grant both wild card athletes their automatic right of entry as long as both have met the A standard. The other athletes then compete for the 2 remaining spots.


That goes against the spirit of the wild card. The wild card is supposed to be an entry in addition to the regular three, not in place of. That's why I maintain that a country should be allowed five entries, once the three athletes not holding wild cars attain the relevant standards.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby ATK » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:54 pm

toyracer wrote:
Tuariki wrote:I believe the USA, Jamaica, Kenya and any other country that has 2 wild cards should grant both wild card athletes their automatic right of entry as long as both have met the A standard. The other athletes then compete for the 2 remaining spots.


That goes against the spirit of the wild card. The wild card is supposed to be an entry in addition to the regular three, not in place of. That's why I maintain that a country should be allowed five entries, once the three athletes not holding wild cars attain the relevant standards.

But your throwing in another wild card now, so its not going against any spirit since its completely new.

The only way something like this could have happened in the past is if two athletes tied for WC gold. That would cause the dilemma, Kenya Jamaica and the US are in now.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby ZELLGADISS » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:32 am

In resume, who would be so stupid choose to Ashmeade and NO Bolt?
Bolt is world champion,world olympic and world recordman in 200m, Ashmeade is a lot of worst runner that him.
It should not to exist debate :lol:
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby toyracer » Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:01 am

ZELLGADISS wrote:It should not to exist debate :lol:


Why not? Because Bolt is Bolt?

What about fairness? What about equity? What about having earned something as a result of a season of hard work? That goes out the window, because Bolt is Bolt?

The IAAF should not have created this dilemma. There should not have to be a choice made. If something is earned, it is earned.

Glen Mills weighs in.

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/2012 ... orts1.html

excerpt:

"I believe it is unfair to offer a man something he cannot use," Mills told The Gleaner. "If you are giving a wild card as a reward for work done, then that wild card should be able to be used no matter what.

"So whether or not you have the defending champion from the same country, if you give someone a wild card, they should be able to cash it in. So if a country ends up with two wild cards, so be it, but you can't disenfranchise the man, because that is what you are doing when you force the country to decide on who goes and who has to qualify," Mills added.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby Tuariki » Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:34 am

toyracer wrote:
Tuariki wrote:I believe the USA, Jamaica, Kenya and any other country that has 2 wild cards should grant both wild card athletes their automatic right of entry as long as both have met the A standard. The other athletes then compete for the 2 remaining spots.


That goes against the spirit of the wild card. The wild card is supposed to be an entry in addition to the regular three, not in place of. That's why I maintain that a country should be allowed five entries, once the three athletes not holding wild cars attain the relevant standards.

I agree with you on that. However, if the IAAF does not change its rules then the individual national associations will have to make a decision one way or the other.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Diamond L Champ • Olympic gold [?]

Postby t_monk » Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:17 pm

I prefer there not be 5 athletes from one country in one race...
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Diamond L Champ • Olympic gold [?]

Postby ATK » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:04 am

t_monk wrote:I prefer there not be 5 athletes from one country in one race...

Why not? That's the only way we would see all the best athletes in the world.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Diamond L Champ • Olympic gold [?]

Postby toyracer » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:20 am

t_monk wrote:I prefer there not be 5 athletes from one country in one race...


Why not?

Isn't the World Championships supposed to be reflective of the very best in each event? Don't we, as track fans, recognize that some countries are stronger than others in specific events? What really is wrong with a country being able to field five athletes in an event? Remember, two of those would have earned their spots after having won the previous World Championship and previous Diamond League championship so they are not slouches. The other three would come from a national trials or selection, and they would have to attain the A standard as well. We're not talking about fielding a female 100m runner that can't break 13 seconds or anything similar.

Additionally, as much as I dislike it, the three semi-final system (presuming a sprint event) may mostly likely whittle those five down to three, possibly four. In all likelihood the five would not all make it to the final. But at least along the way we would have hopefully seen a higher level of competition than we do now. And isn't that what we want, or should want?
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Diamond L Champ • Olympic gold [?]

Postby bushop » Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:51 pm

Track & Field News has produced a list of Diamond League winners.

Only one of the 3-time DL winners, Cheruiyot, earned a wildcard in Daegu.
I like the idea that some of our most successful 'regular season' stars are automatically part of our championship meet. It would be ridiculous to not have a 3-time DL champion not competing at our world championship.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Diamond L Champ • Olympic gold [?]

Postby tandfman » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:09 am

bushop wrote:Track & Field News has produced a list of Diamond League winners.

Only one of the 3-time DL winners, Cheruiyot, earned a wildcard in Daegu.
I like the idea that some of our most successful 'regular season' stars are automatically part of our championship meet. It would be ridiculous to not have a 3-time DL champion not competing at our world championship.

In her case, there's no problem. She also gets the defending champion wild card.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Diamond L Champ • Olympic gold [?]

Postby bushop » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:03 pm

So, what if we had:

2014 Regional Championships - since we have a 'dead' season (no WC or OG)
• top-X performances in each region fill entry list
• winner goes to next World Championships and does not count against country's 3

2015 World Championships auto-entries that do not count against country's 3:
• 2013 World Championship gold medalist
• 2014 Diamond League winner
• 2014 Regional Championship gold medalist

2017 World Championships auto-entries that do not count against country's 3:
• 2015 World Championship gold medalist
• 2016 Diamond League winner
• 2016 Olympic Games gold medalist

A country could have six entires in a World Championship.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s)•Diamond Champ•Olympic gold•Regionals

Postby ATK » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:23 pm

I'm still curious what the 2013 and 2015 Diamond league winner receive, if anything, since there are not WC in 2014 and 2016 (cant give wild car to the Olympics)
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Re: World's Wildcard(s)•Diamond Champ•Olympic gold•Regionals

Postby t_monk » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:54 pm

ATK wrote:I'm still curious what the 2013 and 2015 Diamond league winner receive, if anything, since there are not WC in 2014 and 2016 (cant give wild car to the Olympics)


I've been wondering the same thing...
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