World's Wildcard(s)•Diamond Champ•Olympic gold•Regionals


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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby shivfan » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:51 am

Thanks for that, bushop....

There are not as many clashes as we thought. The US have to decide which of Richardson and Merritt get a wildcard for the 110m hurdles, while Kenya have a couple of decisions to make too.

Jamaica also have to make a couple of decisions in the men's 100m and 200m.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby bushop » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:41 pm

20 additional women
16 additional men
Last edited by bushop on Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby gh » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:01 pm

18.99s wrote:...
The point of the DL wildcard is to provide an incentive to participate in more meets. That incentive becomes more powerful if the WC wildcard can be jeopardized by somebody else winning the DL.


The point of the wild card (at least as when first promulgated in the '90s) is to ensure that huge-name athletes from nations with mandatory Trials qualifying (read primarily the U.S.) can make it into the WC even if they can't compete at the WCT or if they do and don't compete well.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby tandfman » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:33 pm

iain wrote:Are we back to being able to have a mix of A and B standards or can you still only choose one sort?

The mixture of A and B has been permitted in the most recent few World Championships, but not in the Olympic Games. Presumably, at next year's World Championships, they'll allow the mixture.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby bushop » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:39 pm

Does anyone know how many Athletics participants were in Daegu and London?
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby Smoke » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:48 pm

Conflicts aside my concern is we have allowed a WC gold to be deemed equal to DL winner. There is no guarantee the DL is filled with the best all season long. Look at the 200s, rarely contested by the top dogs. The pressure of running in Oslo and Stockholm is nowhere near the pressure of running in a World final.
This is a bad carrot we have offered up. The short comings of the DL will never be solved by greater rewards. Namely one's ability to compete in a DL race, which is far from objective and and never guaranteed. The meet directors could decide who they want in races, thus deciding who gets the wild card.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby ATK » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:06 pm

Smoke wrote:Conflicts aside my concern is we have allowed a WC gold to be deemed equal to DL winner. There is no guarantee the DL is filled with the best all season long. Look at the 200s, rarely contested by the top dogs. The pressure of running in Oslo and Stockholm is nowhere near the pressure of running in a World final.
This is a bad carrot we have offered up. The short comings of the DL will never be solved by greater rewards. Namely one's ability to compete in a DL race, which is far from objective and and never guaranteed. The meet directors could decide who they want in races, thus deciding who gets the wild card.

To be honest, I would probably pick some one who was consistent the previous year than some one who may have just rose to the occasion 2 years ago.
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2012 Diamond League Winners + Wild Card winners

Postby Fortius19 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:07 pm

Wow, I know some of the winners have been mentioned in some of the posts lately, but I can't find any post dedicated to discussing the winners overall as a group. Plus, there is no mention of the winners on the front page of T&FN.com. I expected a results list as a T&FN post in the "The Day's Best Reading". Is the Diamond League really that uninteresting?

PLUS, ALL of these athletes are eligible for a wild card for 2013, right?

* info from: diamondleague.com:
100 m M Usain Bolt
200 m M Nickel Ashmeade
400 m M Kevin Borlée
800 m M Mohammed Aman
1500 m M Silas Kiplagat
5000 m M Isiah Kiplangat Koech
3000 m Steeplechase M Paul Kipsiele Koech
110 m Hurdles M Aries Merritt
400 m Hurdles M Javier Culson
High Jump M Robbie Grabarz
Pole Vault M Renaud Lavillenie
Long Jump M Aleksandr Menkov
Triple Jump M Christian Taylor
Shot Put M Reese Hoffa
Discus Throw M Gerd Kanter
Javelin Throw M Vítezslav Veselý
100 m F Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce
200 m F Charonda Williams
400 m F Amantle Montsho
800 m F Pamela Jelimo
1500 m F Abeba Aregawi
5000 m F Vivian Jepkemoi Cheruiyot
3000 m Steeplechase F Milcah Chemos
100 m Hurdles F Dawn Harper
400 m Hurdles F Kaliese Spencer
High Jump F Chaunte Lowe
Pole Vault F Silke Spiegelburg
Long Jump F Yelena Sokolova
Triple Jump F Olga Rypakova
Shot Put F Valerie Adams
Discus Throw F Sandra Perkovic
Javelin Throw F Barbora Špotáková
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Re: 2012 Diamond League Winners + Wild Card winners

Postby shivfan » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:30 am

I guess you missed this thread....

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43681
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby ZELLGADISS » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:31 am

The logic is that a country that has world champion and winner DL in same event, choice world champion.
So the normal is that Bolt although won 100 DL runs trials next year and in 200 he gots wild card because is world champion, and Ashmeade has to run trials 200m.

I see a lot of more important to be world champion that winner DL.
Although the ideal would be to go both and so until 5 runners same country in that event :lol:
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Re: 2012 Diamond League Winners + Wild Card winners

Postby Fortius19 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:18 am

:oops:

I thought I had seen a thread with the flags. I even double checked so I wouldn't be one of those idiots that make a post that's already been made.

:oops:
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby gh » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:51 am

Boiling bushop's wonderful color-coded chart down to the most basic of posts, there are 5 instances where a wild-card decision will have to be made next year, by 3 countries.

Jamaica in the men's 100 (Blake or Bolt?) and 200 (Bolt or Ashmeade?).

Kenya in the men's 1500 (Kiprop or Kiplagat?) and steeple (Kemboi or Koech?).

U.S. in men's 110H (Merritt or Richardson?).
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Re: 2012 Diamond League Winners + Wild Card winners

Postby bushop » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:35 am

Fortius19 wrote:I thought I had seen a thread with the flags. I even double checked so I wouldn't be one of those idiots that make a post that's already been made.

No more flags... my artsy-fartsiness has been dismantled by the character limit.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby tm71 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:51 pm

gh wrote:Boiling bushop's wonderful color-coded chart down to the most basic of posts, there are 5 instances where a wild-card decision will have to be made next year, by 3 countries.

Jamaica in the men's 100 (Blake or Bolt?) and 200 (Bolt or Ashmeade?).

Kenya in the men's 1500 (Kiprop or Kiplagat?) and steeple (Kemboi or Koech?).

U.S. in men's 110H (Merritt or Richardson?).



i think jamaica will pick bolt because he is bolt, kenya will go with the defending world champions to discourage their athletes for chasing the money in the DL, while USATF will wait after the 2013 USATF outdoor meet is over the make a decision !
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby j-a-m » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:18 am

tm71 wrote:while USATF will wait after the 2013 USATF outdoor meet is over the make a decision !

Likely to happen, especially given that none of the two has a second event he'd otherwise compete in at USATFs.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby tandfman » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:14 am

tm71 wrote:i think jamaica will pick bolt because he is bolt, kenya will go with the defending world champions to discourage their athletes for chasing the money in the DL, while USATF will wait after the 2013 USATF outdoor meet is over the make a decision !

I'll be shocked if USATF waits until after the USATF outdoor meet is over to make a decision. I expect that they will state, in their published rules for team selection, how the 110mh team will be selected, taking into consideration that there are two athletes with wild cards.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby 18.99s » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:25 am

gh wrote:
18.99s wrote:...
The point of the DL wildcard is to provide an incentive to participate in more meets. That incentive becomes more powerful if the WC wildcard can be jeopardized by somebody else winning the DL.


The point of the wild card (at least as when first promulgated in the '90s) is to ensure that huge-name athletes from nations with mandatory Trials qualifying (read primarily the U.S.) can make it into the WC even if they can't compete at the WCT or if they do and don't compete well.


Yes, of course that was the reason for giving the WC winner a wild card.

But the DL wild card has more than that -- it has the incentive of making the DL appearances more important, in addition to having more big names able to show up at WC.
Last edited by 18.99s on Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby 18.99s » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:28 am

tm71 wrote:i think jamaica will pick bolt because he is bolt, ...

Pick Bolt for what? They can't pick Bolt for both the 100m and 200m without being inconsistent, with Bolt being the DL winner in one and World champ in the other. Unless of course, they let the trials decide it and Bolt triumphs in both at the trials.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby j-a-m » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:55 am

tandfman wrote:I'll be shocked if USATF waits until after the USATF outdoor meet is over to make a decision. I expect that they will state, in their published rules for team selection, how the 110mh team will be selected, taking into consideration that there are two athletes with wild cards.

Yeah, that's a valid point, USATF will likely determine criteria in advance of USATFs; but at this point I'd be surprised if who actually gets the wildcard would be determined prior to USATFs.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby tandfman » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:59 am

Right. There's no way that they'll determine who actually uses the wild card before the meet. Nor should they. As with the rest of the team, the places in that event should be determined by the results of the championships, in accordance with criteria that have been clearly set out in advance.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby gh » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:00 am

couldn't disagree more: why not help guarantee the health chances of one of Merritt and Richardson by telling him now that he they can point directly for Moscow?

In terms of what's good for the nation's overall medal count as a whole that's also the smart way to go.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby Fortius19 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:08 pm

what gh said.

If it was up to me, Merritt and Richardson would have a guaranteed spot. The trials would pick the next two by first two across the finish line.


Now if those first two were healthy, back-to-their-bests, David Oliver and TT, that would be even better! :)
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby gh » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:12 pm

hmmm... hadn't thought of the give-em-both-a-spot scenario. I like it.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby tandfman » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:24 pm

Problem with these "guarantee" suggestions is that they fly in the face of USATF's long-standing policy of requiring that the defending champion wild cards must compete in the Nationals in order to be on the team. USATF does that not to strengthen their team at the Worlds, but to enhance the attractiveness of their Number 1 meet of the year. That's important for a number of reasons, all related to enhancing the financial health of the US Championships (and thus of the federation itself).
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby toyracer » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:01 pm

gh wrote:hmmm... hadn't thought of the give-em-both-a-spot scenario. I like it.


That's my option C: allow five if a country's athletes earn two wild cards in the same event.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby toyracer » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:02 pm

tandfman wrote:Problem with these "guarantee" suggestions is that they fly in the face of USATF's long-standing policy of requiring that the defending champion wild cards must compete in the Nationals in order to be on the team. USATF does that not to strengthen their team at the Worlds, but to enhance the attractiveness of their Number 1 meet of the year. That's important for a number of reasons, all related to enhancing the financial health of the US Championships (and thus of the federation itself).


I seem to remember Tyson Gay only having to compete in one round in '09 US Trials when he was defending champion, or am I remembering incorrectly?
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby gh » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:05 pm

correct; you only need to do a first-round runthrough.

Or, as Anjanette Kirkland and LaShawn Merritt showed, you can get a specific exemption if your circumstances truly warrant it.

Believe me, nobody wants to see a healthy nationals more than I, but if you've got a chance to do well by your team and not compromise the overall meet—which to me this clearly does—then I've got no problem with it.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby ZELLGADISS » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:15 pm

In Jamacain trials im sure that Bolt win run 100m and he will have wildcard for 200m like world champion.
And in 100m Blake will have wildcard like world champion and he will run 200m in trials.
Jamaica will choose world champions like Wildcards and Mills does not want that they run in trials together, it is easy to imagine...
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby GDAWG » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:18 pm

tandfman wrote:Problem with these "guarantee" suggestions is that they fly in the face of USATF's long-standing policy of requiring that the defending champion wild cards must compete in the Nationals in order to be on the team. USATF does that not to strengthen their team at the Worlds, but to enhance the attractiveness of their Number 1 meet of the year. That's important for a number of reasons, all related to enhancing the financial health of the US Championships (and thus of the federation itself).


And since Richardson, Merritt, Jesse Williams, Dwight Phillips, Trey Hardee, Reese Hoffa, Dawn Harper, Chaunte Lowe and Brittney Reese don't have a second event, they would all have to compete in their one event to be on the team, although Hardee can always try the one event he's best at (Although I don't remember what that is).
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby ATK » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:26 pm

GDAWG wrote:
tandfman wrote:Problem with these "guarantee" suggestions is that they fly in the face of USATF's long-standing policy of requiring that the defending champion wild cards must compete in the Nationals in order to be on the team. USATF does that not to strengthen their team at the Worlds, but to enhance the attractiveness of their Number 1 meet of the year. That's important for a number of reasons, all related to enhancing the financial health of the US Championships (and thus of the federation itself).


And since Richardson, Merritt, Jesse Williams, Dwight Phillips, Trey Hardee, Reese Hoffa, Dawn Harper, Chaunte Lowe and Brittney Reese don't have a second event, they would all have to compete in their one event to be on the team, although Hardee can always try the one event he's best at (Although I don't remember what that is).

Dwight Phillups has competed over 100m a few times, and Chaunte Lowe competed in the long jump at 2010 nationals.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby bushop » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:11 pm

So the US and Kenya don't have to choose between the two.

Before the trials give one the wildcard spot...
... the other a selection spot...
... and after the trials the top-2 at the trials are also on the roster = four spots.

Sounds good for Moscow.
Last edited by bushop on Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby tandfman » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:36 pm

ZELLGADISS wrote:In Jamacain trials im sure that Bolt win run 100m and he will have wildcard for 200m like world champion.
And in 100m Blake will have wildcard like world champion and he will run 200m in trials.

It appears that you are absolutely correct. See the story now linked in the front page headline section.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby bushop » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:04 pm

What would you think if these two were given Wildcards?

Pars and Heidler win Hammer Throw Challenge
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby ATK » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:34 pm

bushop wrote:So the US and Kenya don't have to choose between the two.

Before the trials give one the wildcard spot...
... the other a selction spot...
... and after the trials the top-2 at the trials are also on the roster = four spots.

Sounds good for Moscow.

so whats the difference between a wild card spot and a selection spot?
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby tandfman » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:46 pm

ATK wrote:so whats the difference between a wild card spot and a selection spot?

There really isn't any. If an athlete has earned a wild card, his country can run a maximum four in his/her event, rather than 3. If there are two from one country with a wild card in a single event, the max is still 4, and it doesn't matter which is considered the wild card.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby Fortius19 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:01 pm

bushop wrote:What would you think if these two were given Wildcards?

Pars and Heidler win Hammer Throw Challenge


I think it would help ease the pain (a little bit) of being completely shafted by the DL/IAAF.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby GDAWG » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:43 pm

ATK wrote:
GDAWG wrote:
tandfman wrote:Problem with these "guarantee" suggestions is that they fly in the face of USATF's long-standing policy of requiring that the defending champion wild cards must compete in the Nationals in order to be on the team. USATF does that not to strengthen their team at the Worlds, but to enhance the attractiveness of their Number 1 meet of the year. That's important for a number of reasons, all related to enhancing the financial health of the US Championships (and thus of the federation itself).


And since Richardson, Merritt, Jesse Williams, Dwight Phillips, Trey Hardee, Reese Hoffa, Dawn Harper, Chaunte Lowe and Brittney Reese don't have a second event, they would all have to compete in their one event to be on the team, although Hardee can always try the one event he's best at (Although I don't remember what that is).

Dwight Phillups has competed over 100m a few times, and Chaunte Lowe competed in the long jump at 2010 nationals.


I had forgotten that Lowe had done some Long Jump. Did not know that Dwight Phillips could also run 100 meters.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby ATK » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:53 am

GDAWG wrote:
ATK wrote:Dwight Phillups has competed over 100m a few times, and Chaunte Lowe competed in the long jump at 2010 nationals.


I had forgotten that Lowe had done some Long Jump. Did not know that Dwight Phillips could also run 100 meters.

His PR is 10.06, from 2009 when he was 32!
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby shivfan » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:35 am

gh wrote:hmmm... hadn't thought of the give-em-both-a-spot scenario. I like it.

Ditto....

As said by same poster, let the others compete for the two remaining spots.
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Re: World's Wildcard(s) • Olympic Champ • DL Champ

Postby tandfman » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:25 am

In some ways, that makes sense. It's likely to be the reality of the situation anyway. If both of those guys are in the event, I can't see both of them finishing outside the top 3, and if at least one of them is in the top 3, the rest of the field is really competing for just two open slots.
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