Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]


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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Jacksf » Tue May 15, 2012 4:19 pm

26mi235 wrote:Jack, I am not dismissing LR's speed and she is actually an athlete I admire very highly, more highly than many athletes that are absolutely better in one or two events. I thin her range is FABULOUS and I very much appreciate how rare her talent is and her dedication like is also.

I am saying that she does not have the wheels of someone who has blown into the event (400) on wings this spring [she is the leading collegiate 400 runner (and on a track that is likely 0.2+ slower than those her competitors have set their marks) on and I did not know who she was until this weekend and got to see her four or five times]. She could possibly have an Olympic Gold Medal come August (4x400), something LR will not have any realistic shot at. Saying that she does not have those wheels is in no way demeaning and, while we know LR has lasted quite a while already and likely will be around for a while (if I am lucky), I have no way of knowing if Spencer will last.


Actually you did say that her speed was basically ordinary.

But anyway, here's the thing - you keep saying that Laura doesn't have the potential to be world class in the 400m. And Gary basically saying the same thing, that she isn't fast enough to be 'big time'.
But where's your argument to say that she can be world class or big time in the 800m.
It's her event for now. She is training for it with some of the best runners in the country, and one of the top schools in the country, and she's still a 2:05 runner.
Where's the big time, world class potential there?!
I'm not saying she has Olympic potential in the 400m. I'm just saying that's her better event.
And I think I've made a good case for it.
On the 800m side, I haven't seen any case made for her 800m potential, other than you think she's too slow for the 400m.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Tue May 15, 2012 6:11 pm

gh wrote:After watching her closely in 3 races this weekend (including one in which she did not have the fastest split on the Oregon team and got her hat handed to her on the anchor by hurdler Georganne Moline, allow me to repeat my contention that any future she has is in the 800 (and her future there could be good). You can believe all the 1/2/4 times you want, but you don't have to be an eagle-eye to see that she simply doesn't have the turnover to make it as a big-time quartermiler. (this is one of those things where I'd love to be proved wrong, but that's the lay of the land as I see it)

gh, you let me down. :( Do you not get the fact that though Roesler MIGHT HAVE BEEN A SPRINTER IF SHE CONTINUED TO SPRINT AT AGE 16...she's been training as an 800m runner; that's what she is now. Of Course the #1 400h'r in collegiate track and field and world leader up until about a week ago would have more turnover! Plus, let's just negate the fact that Moline was exercising a sprint stimulus all weekend while Roesler was expressing a mid-distance stimulus... I'm shocked that you would even write such a thing. You're the editor for chrissakes! You're supposed to be the last stop to sanity on this board and a post like that shows you're clearly off the deep end. What's a guy to believe in now? :mrgreen: How many 1500m do you think Moline ran over the last 2 years? And Moline, who might one day be called on to move up to the 800m if the usual suspects on this board have their way :roll: , was a 43 hurdler coming out of high school. Moline is a sprinter! But, if you train a sprinter like a distance runner for 6 years <*cough "Roesler" cough*> eventually any turnover they had will cease to exist.

Also, it's been said over and over throughout this thread but Roesler was training to go the Olympic trials as an 800m runner in 2008. She used the sprint races as her speedwork but she was trained as an 800m runner. As an 800m runner. As an 800m runner. As an 800m runner. I don't know how many times it can be written before you guys actually internalize that she WAS NOT TRAINED TO BE A SPRINTER IN HIGH SCHOOL she just happened to be faster than everybody so they ran the races as her speedwork*.

I'm not saying that she wouldn't have ended up as an 800m runner (see: Miles, J; Quirot, A; Rainey, M; countless RUS); I'm just saying that MORE time should have been spent developing her absolute speed, especially when she was faster than most of America's sprinters when she was 16.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 15, 2012 6:29 pm

Not having 51.02 wheels does not imply her speed is 'ordinary', and I did not say it was ordinary (neither did I say anything about the 16-year speed of S..., just her FR emergence, not (nearly?) as high a profile as Diane Dixon, who she now marginally outranks for 1st prior to Regionals).

I had said a fair bit earlier that I thought her 400 speed was good enough that she might make world-class level in the 800 (going through at 57 is not going to max her out, although it might not be feasible to go the next 400 at the slightly slower pace to be world-class).

She might be better at the 400 than at the 800, but in that case it is as much because she cannot get the 800 time down the next couple of steps (2:03 => 2:01 => 1:59) rather than that she is even better (50-low or 49-high) at 400. I am not sure what her training is like, but I would guess that it is not 'pure' 800 but a mix of 800 and 400, since she has an important role on a good 4x400 team in an event that swings points at NCAAs.

People like guru have a better understanding of the particulars of women 400 runners of this age and probably the 800 as well.

In summary, I generally agree with gh.

As for a new post "Do you not get the fact that though Roesler MIGHT HAVE BEEN A SPRINTER IF SHE CONTINUED TO SPRINT AT AGE 16...s"

I think that she has had plenty of training for 400, just not exclusively 400 but I highly doubt it has been neglected. S went from LR's times to 51.02 overnight and LR has had enough training doing sprints to have accessed those capabilities if they were there. Given how early she developed I do not think that substantially higher level of speed would have suddenly come out at 17 or 18 or 19 if only she had worked on 'half-distance' down (distances down are halves 800/400/200 ...) more fully than she did. She definitely has NOT trained as a 800/1500 runner but as a 800/400 runner. Her 100 times indicate that she has no chance to be world-class at the very short end, speed is more basic than that and she has good speed but is not a short sprinter even though she had some opportunity to try it.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Jacksf » Tue May 15, 2012 8:32 pm

26mi235 wrote:Not having 51.02 wheels does not imply her speed is 'ordinary', and I did not say it was ordinary


Actually, you said it at least twice!

"Her speed wheels . . . are pretty ordinary for a long sprinter."
"...in the 400 where her speed is relatively ordinary"

...about a girl who is anchoring one of the best 4x400m teams in the country, while training for the 800m;
who was the 9th fastest 400m HSer in country;
who was the 25th fastest 200m HSer in the country.
who hasn't had the chance to develop her wheels any further.

Who knows how fast she would be in the 400m if she were training for it?!
Some of her 400m HS contemporaries are doing quite well. Maybe she would have too.
Diamond Dixon ran 52.95 in HS (now down to 51.09 this wkend)
Roesler ran 53.25 in HS that same year.
Not a big difference.
But you and Gary would have us believe that her speed is 'ordinary' or inadequate for the 400m.
Shame on you!

I hope after this Olympic year, if Laura doesn't have a break through in the 800m, the coaches at least give her a chance to see what she can do at 400m.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 15, 2012 9:08 pm

What part of 'for a long sprinter' do you not understand? SRR is a long sprinter; she just ran an early-season 10.89w. That is huge speed for a long sprinter, even one as fast as SRR. But she had plenty of years running sprints and was not getting faster than 12/24.x She was not Fast for a long sprinter -- so she has ordinary speed for a long sprinter. She has better speed for an 800 gal (better than ordinary for a mid-distance runner, like Vessey has, if that rings a bell).

Ordinary speed for a long sprinter ~~ above ordinary for an 800 runner. And her speed is mediocre for a short sprinter.

But, it is not like she never ran a sprint races, she ran dozens of them, probably many dozens of them. She did not train for those by running 50 miles/week. She trained across the range from 100 the 800 and did the 1600 because she was a cut above everyone else athletically. Note than when another good 12/24 sprinter showed up, she actually came in second.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 15, 2012 9:27 pm

I guess I do not get what is the basis for the assumption that she is going to be a really fast sprinter if she would just train to be a sprinter. 1) you do not know how she is training; 2) we do know that she has been a key element of the 4x400, so I infer from that fact that she is being trained to enhance her ability to run (repeated) 400r races while also running a couple of 800s; 3) If her coaches thought she would be better at 400 than 800, the depth in the 800 would lead them to use her more for the 400 (or 200, ...) --- but they have not. WHY, from a distance, not knowing what she is doing etc., do you think you know a lot more than the coaches that have been working with her for several years?

I do not hear. "I think that there is a 10% chance that if she trained solely as a 200/400 (long) sprinter she would be better at the 400 than she will be at the 800." Instead, we get what seems to be 'certainty', no question about it rather than a modest possibility (and modest must be constrained from being very large by the observation that those who know a lot more do not seem to think so).
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Wed May 16, 2012 6:20 am

26mi235,

Repeatedly it has been said, and articles have been provided, that PROVE that Roesler was NOT trained as a sprinter. Laura's mother, who coached both Laura and Laura’s high school coach, is a distance runner; young Laura (and high school Laura according to what I’ve read) ran road races, cross country and did mileage, etc – something that you wouldn't see sprinters doing. Yet, you continue to ask for proof that she was trained as an 800m runner, though you can provide none of your own that she WAS trained like a sprinter – even in the face of the existence of evidence to the contrary. What we can infer (dangerously) because of the limited information available is that she was trained as a mid-distance runner. Period! Stop saying otherwise unless you have proof or a link.

You’re a distance runner and though that hasn't precluded you from being an extreme fan of track and field and the multi-events that you have proven that you are – in addition to doing some officiating – your perception of the sprints, in particular, is wrong. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming that your suggestions that Roesler was doing sprint training in high school and that she does sprint training in college is due to [your] distance runners belief that anything shorter than their core event is sprint training. It doesn’t work like that; distance runners often see “speed” training as “sprint” training and they are not remotely linked.

You also have this replacement "Eldrick" thing working and it’s not necessarily good. If it’s not wind calculations that used to be a guide but you’ve now decided will be the “law of sprint equivalencies”, then it’s this obsessiveness about “slow” tracks and “fast tracks”. But, you won’t stop there. You “infer” that because she runs on the 4x4 before that she actually does training for it…un*******believable! On many of the nation’s w4x4 teams there is a woman who runs the 800m and they don’t train for it, they just happen to be the 4th best 400m relay runner. No sensible person would see Roesler running a 1500m during the season and say that she’s doing sprint training. And, that’s why this entire conversation has become unnecessarily tiring, because you don't understand the basics of sprint training. If you want to help yourself, and this thread, you can start here http://www.nacactfca.org/Shaver%20-%20S ... aining.pdf Page 54 is a good starting point. You will see that young Laura HAS NOT been doing sprint training. Not in high school; not in college. Not ever!

I re-read through this entire thread and repeatedly the point has been made by me and others that Roesler could have been a sprinter on the college level and possibly even on the elite level; and we’ve shown you and the others that Roesler’s trajectory at age 16 shared the arc of being a top sprinter - had she been given the opportunity that her "sprint peers" had. It was shown that she was as fast as most of the Jamaican sprinters that have had gold, silver and bronze medals hung around their necks at World Champs and Olympics but you still say that her speed is ordinary because she’s been training as a mid-distance runner for the last 6 years. It was also shown that she was as fast as the top American sprinters, but you dismiss it out of hand. FWIW, 1:59 has been broken by women 1,673 times while 50 seconds has been broken by women 434 times. If you raise1:59 1 minute to 1:59.99 the number is probably near 2800. Do you or anyone else seriously want to debate that those times are equal? This is a point that “Powell” made pages ago, but you and others refuse to acknowledge other posters points.

I don’t mind good debate but you’ve been particularly close-minded and obtuse in this thread. What is most insulting is that you clearly have less of a grasp on sprinting, sprint training, and sprint coaching than the people you are debating yet you continue to arrogantly push your point as if you have to be proven wrong - when you don't even recognize that you already have been proven wrong.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby enpsalmx » Wed May 16, 2012 8:10 am

preston wrote:26mi235,

Repeatedly it has been said, and articles have been provided, that PROVE that Roesler was NOT trained as a sprinter. Laura's mother, who coached both Laura and Laura’s high school coach, is a distance runner; young Laura (and high school Laura according to what I’ve read) ran road races, cross country and did mileage, etc – something that you wouldn't see sprinters doing. Yet, you continue to ask for proof that she was trained as an 800m runner, though you can provide none of your own that she WAS trained like a sprinter – even in the face of the existence of evidence to the contrary. What we can infer (dangerously) because of the limited information available is that she was trained as a mid-distance runner. Period! Stop saying otherwise unless you have proof or a link.

You’re a distance runner and though that hasn't precluded you from being an extreme fan of track and field and the multi-events that you have proven that you are – in addition to doing some officiating – your perception of the sprints, in particular, is wrong. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming that your suggestions that Roesler was doing sprint training in high school and that she does sprint training in college is due to [your] distance runners belief that anything shorter than their core event is sprint training. It doesn’t work like that; distance runners often see “speed” training as “sprint” training and they are not remotely linked.

You also have this replacement "Eldrick" thing working and it’s not necessarily good. If it’s not wind calculations that used to be a guide but you’ve now decided will be the “law of sprint equivalencies”, then it’s this obsessiveness about “slow” tracks and “fast tracks”. But, you won’t stop there. You “infer” that because she runs on the 4x4 before that she actually does training for it…un*******believable! On many of the nation’s w4x4 teams there is a woman who runs the 800m and they don’t train for it, they just happen to be the 4th best 400m relay runner. No sensible person would see Roesler running a 1500m during the season and say that she’s doing sprint training. And, that’s why this entire conversation has become unnecessarily tiring, because you don't understand the basics of sprint training. If you want to help yourself, and this thread, you can start here http://www.nacactfca.org/Shaver%20-%20S ... aining.pdf Page 54 is a good starting point. You will see that young Laura HAS NOT been doing sprint training. Not in high school; not in college. Not ever!

I re-read through this entire thread and repeatedly the point has been made by me and others that Roesler could have been a sprinter on the college level and possibly even on the elite level; and we’ve shown you and the others that Roesler’s trajectory at age 16 shared the arc of being a top sprinter - had she been given the opportunity that her "sprint peers" had. It was shown that she was as fast as most of the Jamaican sprinters that have had gold, silver and bronze medals hung around their necks at World Champs and Olympics but you still say that her speed is ordinary because she’s been training as a mid-distance runner for the last 6 years. It was also shown that she was as fast as the top American sprinters, but you dismiss it out of hand. FWIW, 1:59 has been broken by women 1,673 times while 50 seconds has been broken by women 434 times. If you raise1:59 1 minute to 1:59.99 the number is probably near 2800. Do you or anyone else seriously want to debate that those times are equal? This is a point that “Powell” made pages ago, but you and others refuse to acknowledge other posters points.

I don’t mind good debate but you’ve been particularly close-minded and obtuse in this thread. What is most insulting is that you clearly have less of a grasp on sprinting, sprint training, and sprint coaching than the people you are debating yet you continue to arrogantly push your point as if you have to be proven wrong - when you don't even recognize that you already have been proven wrong.


It is not too late for Laura to change her major event emphasis if it is in the cards for her to do so. Interestingly enough her teammate Phyllis Francis ran the 400, 600 and 800 meters exclusively in high school and now is a top 200-400 runner in the NCAA. She even leads off for the 4x1! Ms. Francis' shift has come over the past two seasons so perhaps her success suggests that Laura still has options.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed May 16, 2012 8:58 am

enpsalmx wrote:It is not too late for Laura to change her major event emphasis if it is in the cards for her to do so. Interestingly enough her teammate Phyllis Francis ran the 400, 600 and 800 meters exclusively in high school and now is a top 200-400 runner in the NCAA. She even leads off for the 4x1! Ms. Francis' shift has come over the past two seasons so perhaps her success suggests that Laura still has options.


But in this case we have the more natural situation where the more knowledgeable college coaches see things and can make things work where coaches on the prior level won't have the expertise (plus, time is on their side). For LR, it goes a bit in the other direction. I am not saying it is beyond 'reasonability' for her to be better at, say, 400 (although the shorter sprints see to be too fast for her).

But Preston, et al, can you tell me why her rather high-level coaches see her one way and you seemingly know better? You seem to know a lot about her and be sure about what you say is her training history but I feel like I am not getting any insight to why these knowledgeable coaches, with detailed knowledge of her workouts and how she responds to them, are getting this wrong. It is not like they need her to fill the 800 hole in the lineup (they have several) or that they do not 'know' how to recognize and work with sprinters. We are talking about the top tier of collegiate coaches that are winning national titles.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Wed May 16, 2012 9:51 am

26mi235 wrote:...For LR, it goes a bit in the other direction. I am not saying it is beyond 'reasonability' for her to be better at, say, 400 (although the shorter sprints see to be too fast for her).

But Preston, et al, can you tell me why her rather high-level coaches see her one way and you seemingly know better? You seem to know a lot about her and be sure about what you say is her training history but I feel like I am not getting any insight to why these knowledgeable coaches, with detailed knowledge of her workouts and how she responds to them, are getting this wrong. It is not like they need her to fill the 800 hole in the lineup (they have several) or that they do not 'know' how to recognize and work with sprinters. We are talking about the top tier of collegiate coaches that are winning national titles.

Now, you're being patronizing, again. I never said that I know better than her "high-level" coaches; I said that had she continued sprinting at the age of 16 that she may have become a top sprinter. Which also would answer you saying, again, "the shorter sprints see [sic] to be too fast for her".

Would you say that shorter sprints were too fast for her at age 16 when she ran 11.90, 24.30 and 53.25?
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby gh » Wed May 16, 2012 10:09 am

preston wrote:... I'm shocked that you would even write such a thing. You're the editor for chrissakes! You're supposed to be the last stop to sanity on this board...


Thanks for helping me be a better editor. Now that I understand that if I agree with your position I'm a good editor and if I disagree then I'm a bad editor it makes things so much simpler.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Wed May 16, 2012 10:21 am

gh wrote:
preston wrote:... I'm shocked that you would even write such a thing. You're the editor for chrissakes! You're supposed to be the last stop to sanity on this board...


Thanks for helping me be a better editor. Now that I understand that if I agree with your position I'm a good editor and if I disagree then I'm a bad editor it makes things so much simpler.

Now, there's a joke you took way too seriously. :?
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed May 16, 2012 11:00 am

preston wrote:Now, you're being patronizing, again. I never said that I know better than her "high-level" coaches; I said that had she continued sprinting at the age of 16 that she may have become a top sprinter. Which also would answer you saying, again, "the shorter sprints see [sic] to be too fast for her".

Would you say that shorter sprints were too fast for her at age 16 when she ran 11.90, 24.30 and 53.25?


I do not understand the 'patronizing' term. Repeatedly questioning her not doing the sprints certainly seems to the reader (e.g., me) like you think you know better. Your comments here in that regard does clarify your positions.

Do you think that focusing on the 800 (for an exciting possibility which she probably did not have for the 100/200/400) was a mistake for a teenager? Is all lost because she 'went long' for a couple of years at age 16; it would seem like great sprint speed would reassert itself quickly if trained for?

Finally, is she more 'inclined' to being a mid-distance runner than to being a sprinter [since you seem to know a lot of her detailed history, you might know/have insight]? People do have preferences, and maybe hers is to run the 800 and not the sprints; she will do it for the team, but her love is the 800.

[PS 1) was the 11.90 wind-aided?, 2) I have a broken arm and typing is difficult, slow, and error prone as I hit unintended letters and others do not register....]
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby gh » Wed May 16, 2012 11:51 am

preston wrote:
gh wrote:
preston wrote:... I'm shocked that you would even write such a thing. You're the editor for chrissakes! You're supposed to be the last stop to sanity on this board...


Thanks for helping me be a better editor. Now that I understand that if I agree with your position I'm a good editor and if I disagree then I'm a bad editor it makes things so much simpler.

Now, there's a joke you took way too seriously. :?


No i didn't, but you did!
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Wed May 16, 2012 12:00 pm

26, I don't have any additional "insight" on Laura Roesler that I haven't read in articles that are available to anyone. My insight comes from combing through results of athletes for years and recognizing what talent looks like. I THINK there was a rush to make her the next Mary Decker that has NOTHING to do with Lananna or Oregon (trust me, there are plenty of kids in Jamaica that should be running the 800m but see themselves as 100/200m runners). She grew up and was inspired to be the distance queen that America wants/craves. I'm sure that both the 800 and 1500 were in the cards. So it's hard to say that focussing on the 800m was a mistake. She had just made the USOT final as a sophomore, it would be a no-brainer! However, had Roesler grown up in another country they MAY have had her more 4 with occasional 8 races as opposed to now where she runs 15's. So, yes, I think focussing on the 8 as a teenager was a mistake; its not like she was going to move up immediately to the 1500.

I think Roesler, had she developed her speed [more] first, could have been an exceptional 800m runner in the vein of Quirot, Miles-Clark, Rainey-Valmon and others who began as sprinter/400m runners. Quirot was sub-50 as was Miles as was the current WR. Rainey-Valmon ran 51.46 on Penn's track in 1990. Had she continued as a 400m runner I'm pretty sure she would have eventually run sub-50. Even Jelimo was a 51 second 400m runner before the switch. And, I think that Roesler ha-d/s that type of "sprint" ability - which means that she could have dominated at the NCAA level and run successfully as a pro, though championships medals would have been a challenge. I still think she can be good/great, I just think she is going to need more speed if her intent was to challenge records like a Jelimo. (btw, I just looked, Roesler was as fast as Quirot at the same age. Quirot ran 53.74 at age 15 in 1978 but didn't set her next 400m PB until 1982 when she was 19, 52.61. Quirot wouldn't run her PB 23.07 until 1988 And, she wasn't running 800m yet, I don't think.).

But...

There is no denying that the speed that Roesler ha-s/d compared well with the top sprinters the world over. There is little to suggest, based upon her progression AT THAT TIME, that she couldn't be as good. Yes that would/could have put her in the sub-11.30, sub-23, sub-51 group rather easily. And, maybe the sub-11, sub-22, sub-49. We'll never know now.

But, let me leave you with this: Ivet Lalova of Bulgaria ran 11.72/24.03 at age 17! Less than 3 years later she was under 11.15 and 23.00 seconds! Her PB today stands at 10.96/22.51 (I'm not counting her 10.77)http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographies/letter=l/country=bul/athcode=183664/index.html

gh wrote:No i didn't, but you did!

Can you find it in your heart to forgive me. :lol:
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby EPelle » Wed May 16, 2012 2:30 pm

MS: Did you do much sprint and speed work during the season, especially considering you ran many 100, 200 and 400m races?
LR: I do sometimes, but mostly I just run my middle distance workouts, which are very fast anyways, so it is pretty much speed work.

http://usa.milesplit.com/articles/19033

How many miles/week do you run in the fall? And in the spring?
I’m not quite sure of my mileage. I just usually go out and do what my coach tells us. [Coach Svalson: The girls usually go out for a 5-6 mile run once or twice a week, one day in the pool, one day of speed and one of intervals. We tried to do back-to-back hard days to prepare for the Trials.]


You are being compared to Mary Decker (uhoh, do you know who that is?) -- is hers a path you'd like to follow, or would you prefer to blaze your own trail?
I don’t know a whole lot about Mary Decker but I think I would rather go my own way and be referred to as “Laura Roesler” and not “The Next Mary Decker.” One thing I would like to follow is her success. She set many records and I’m sure was a fierce competitor. I would like to be remembered like that some day too.

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=13711

Training and more training
Training a champion is a team sport. “We’ve really been blessed with good help over the years,” says Karen, a phys-ed teacher, former runner and longtime exerciser at Sanford Fitness Center in Fargo.

For Laura, keys to success have included exercising safely, adding variety and setting goals. Sanford Sports Medicine has been pleased to play a part:

  • Laura attended Speed-Strength camp in eighth grade.
  • Two years later she participated in Winter Sprint camp led by Brett Beil, Sanford exercise specialist.
  • Last summer she and Brett worked one-on-one, focusing on strength to improve stride.

http://www.sanfordhealth.org/stories/vi ... d9eb43168f

DGW: What does a typical week of training look like for you during the track season?
LR:A typical week for me is usually 3 hard workouts, 3 days of easy running or in the pool and one rest day. My easy runs are not very long, so the mileage is pretty low and for workouts I do a little of both speed and distance work.


DGW: You've been a national-level runner since your freshman year and you've continued to improve year after year. What do you attribute to your growth as a runner to?
LR: I would say staying healthy and being smart about my training. After each season I take a month off of absolutely nothing just to get a mental and emotional break and recharge my batteries. I also enjoy everything I do, workouts, races, traveling because if it weren’t fun for me I wouldn’t be where I am today. The past couple of years I have done a little more lifting in the winter/off season and that’s when I do my sprinting work also. The intensity and difficulty of my workouts have definitely increased over time as well.


When I first started, I did a lot more distance races, and eighth grade was when I really started sprinting. Since then my sprinting has gotten gradually better and I’ve set many pr’s this season alone. My 800 time has probably dropped the most since I started and I look forward to keep getting better next year.


DGW: You seemed to start off as a sprinter, and continue to run 100m-400m during the season. Why so much focus on the sprints when you've had so much success at the 800m+ distances?
LR: I really do the sprints as workouts, to just keep building on and helping my 800, but I have also had a good amount of success in them, especially the 400. This year I have done distances above and below the 800, which will really help later in the summer meets. I also don’t run the 800 a whole lot during the regular season, so I do not over-race it and am tired by the time the summer season starts.

http://www.runnerspace.com/blogs.php?bl ... z1v4abv0Ca
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Daisy » Wed May 16, 2012 2:55 pm

EPelle wrote:
MS: Did you do much sprint and speed work during the season, especially considering you ran many 100, 200 and 400m races?
LR: I do sometimes, but mostly I just run my middle distance workouts, which are very fast anyways, so it is pretty much speed work.

http://usa.milesplit.com/articles/19033

So no speed work?
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Blues » Wed May 16, 2012 2:57 pm

26mi235 wrote:
[PS 1) was the 11.90 wind-aided?, 2) I have a broken arm and typing is difficult, slow, and error prone as I hit unintended letters and others do not register....]


I'm more inclined to agree with your stance on Laura Roesler 26... She's a very talented young athlete, but it seems to me that she has the ability to reach a more elite level in the 800 with the proper training, coaching, and dedication. Recently she's been splitting high 52 to 53 in the 4x4, even when pushed. I see 800 guys like Michael Preble, Joey Roberts, Casimir Loxsom, etc. routinely running low to mid 46 splits or better on their teams' 4x4's. It seems hard to believe that training for the 8 could hurt their 400 speed so much that they'd all be running 44 splits if they trained for the short sprints instead, but I guess there's no way to tell.... Naturally there are other variable factors besides her 800m training that can influence Laura Roesler's progression in each event also.

And since you mentioned Laura's high school 11.90, at the North Dakota State Meet in 2008, Laura ran her 11.90 in the prelims, with the benefit of a +6.1 tailwind. She then won the finals in 12.07, with a +3.2 tailwind. Her 24.30 win in the 200 in the same meet was also aided by a +2.3 tailwind. The following year, in 2009, Laura's season bests were 12.41 and 24.66.
.
http://nd.milesplit.com/meets/37218/results/68603/print
Last edited by Blues on Wed May 16, 2012 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby EPelle » Wed May 16, 2012 3:07 pm

Daisy wrote:
EPelle wrote:
MS: Did you do much sprint and speed work during the season, especially considering you ran many 100, 200 and 400m races?
LR: I do sometimes, but mostly I just run my middle distance workouts, which are very fast anyways, so it is pretty much speed work.

http://usa.milesplit.com/articles/19033

So no speed work?

It appears in that particular instance, much of her work was faster turnover, although she is quoted elsewhere as stating she did her sprint training in the winter months.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby gh » Wed May 16, 2012 3:44 pm

Blues wrote:[...
And since you mentioned Laura's high school 11.90, at the North Dakota State Meet in 2008, Laura ran her 11.90 in the prelims, with the benefit of a +6.1 tailwind. She then won the finals in 12.07, with a +3.2 tailwind. ...


So in other words, her quoted 11.9 speed is (well, was) more like 12.2.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Jacksf » Wed May 16, 2012 4:11 pm

26mi235,
Again!
You are making the argument that Laura cannot be world class in the 400m.
The thread topic is which is Laura's best event, the 800m or the 400m! not whether she can be an Olympic medalist in the the 400m.
What is your argument that she is better at 800m than at 400m?
That she can't run as fast as SRR?!
Gimme a break! By that yardstick there should only be about 10 or 15 women in the entire world running the 400, and the rest should move up to the 800m????!!!!

And just for the record, blazing short sprint speed is not a pre-requiste to a fast 400m.
Case in point, Jeremy Wariner.
He is certainly not a short sprint blazer, but he is certainly a great 400m runner.
And by the way, 9th fastest HSer in the country is well beyond 'ordinary' speed in the 400m.
But I know, you never said her speed was 'ordinary' ....again! ;p
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Jacksf » Wed May 16, 2012 4:16 pm

gh wrote:
Blues wrote:[...
And since you mentioned Laura's high school 11.90, at the North Dakota State Meet in 2008, Laura ran her 11.90 in the prelims, with the benefit of a +6.1 tailwind. She then won the finals in 12.07, with a +3.2 tailwind. ...


So in other words, her quoted 11.9 speed is (well, was) more like 12.2.


For the record, her HS bests were 11.97 (1.5w) and 24.01 (nwi) and 24.51 (0.5w) and 400m 53.25
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Jacksf » Wed May 16, 2012 4:25 pm

26mi235 wrote:... can you tell me why her rather high-level coaches see her one way and you seemingly know better? You seem to know a lot about her and be sure about what you say is her training history but I feel like I am not getting any insight to why these knowledgeable coaches, with detailed knowledge of her workouts and how she responds to them, are getting this wrong.


Why do you think they are right?
You haven't given any arguments to support your position.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed May 16, 2012 6:08 pm

Jacksf wrote:Why do you think they are right?
You haven't given any arguments to support your position.


In this corner we have experts that are winning multiple national championships and who are pretty high up the pay-grade structure for the sport. They see these athletes for many, many hours and their reputations depend on how well they do their job.

In this other corner we have some unknown internet posters who don't have a nickle in the game, do not have close personal knowledge of the athlete and the training and who think that an athlete that is much further up the rankings in event A should be in event B, which she is also pretty good at (it is the next event on the distance progression, so no surprise there), where if she had only been trained in that area as her primary area would be at a higher national ranking. And she ran those events enough to win a dozen gold medals.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed May 16, 2012 6:10 pm

Part II

I do not have to produce the arguments, that is up to you to swim against the tide of the facts of the case and, while a number of points have indeed been made, I do not find them convincing (I do think that there is as much as a 25% chance that she could be better at the 400 [not quite what I have been painted as asserting] but virtually zero likelihood at anything shorter, but in most of those 'outcomes' the implications are that she is not so very good at the 800 rather than she is spectacularly successful at the 400, in which it is sort of a moot point in terms of being an athlete of world interest.

[Furthermore, citing a PR of 11.90 without stating it was 6.1mps wind (and at medium, Lausanne-like altitude) makes it seem like facts are being used rather loosely.]
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Jacksf » Wed May 16, 2012 7:01 pm

400m
55.76 ('08)
55.10 ('09)
53.25/52.2r ('10)
51.45r ('11)
52.8r ('12)

800m
2:03.08 ('08)
2:06.20 ('09)
2:04.34 ('10)
2:03.12 ('11)
2:05.13 ('12)
Last edited by Jacksf on Wed May 16, 2012 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby tandfman » Wed May 16, 2012 7:08 pm

She ran 2:03.12 in 2011 in the NCAA West Regional.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Blues » Wed May 16, 2012 9:24 pm

Jacksf wrote:
For the record, her HS bests were 11.97 (1.5w) and 24.01 (nwi) and 24.51 (0.5w) and 400m 53.25


Yes, those marks were run when she was 18 1/2 at the end of her senior year. But Preston on several occasions used 11.90, 24.30, and 53.25 as evidence in his argument that Laura had more speed at age 16 than Ashley Spencer and most other elite US sprinters. Two of the marks he used as proof were heavily wind aided, and the third mark (53.25) wasn't accomplished until Laura was well over 18, so to be fair I felt that his quotes below required clarification.
.
.

"Show me where spencer had 11.90/24.30/53.25 "wheels" at age 16?"

and:

"Would you say that shorter sprints were too fast for her at age 16 when she ran 11.90, 24.30 and 53.25?"
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby Jacksf » Thu May 17, 2012 4:32 am

The University of Oregon official athletics website lists some of those marks as her bests (see below). So I'm sure he would assume they were legal marks. I did.
Anyway, the point he was making is that she is fast. Whereas, mr. marathon says she is not.


"A four-time All-American as a freshman, including anchoring the record-setting 4x400 meter relay team at the NCAA Outdoor Championships (3:28.18). ......

Personal: Major is psychology. Last name is pronounced RACE-ler

Personal Bests
100 Meters - 11.90,
North Dakota State Meet,
Bismark, N.D., 5/23/08
200 Meters - 24.01,
BCS/CHS Invite,
Bismark, N.D., 4/23/10
400 Meters - 53.25,
North Dakota State Meet,
Bismark, N.D., 5/29/10
800 Meters - 2:03.08,
Jim Bush Invitational,
Los Angeles, Calif., 6/7/08"
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Thu May 17, 2012 7:14 am

Jacksf and Preston seem to consistently misread parts of my posts. I did not say that she is not fast. I said she is not fast for a sprinter (she gets more 'ordinary' as the distance gets shorter, being best at 400). She has very good speed for an 800 runner, like Jelimo and Vessey. Calling a 24.2/11.2 sprinter "fast" seems to me to be stretching the term a bit.

I gave an indication using the NCAA list (which unfortunately is overly affected by including athletes fastest mark, whether wind-aided or not) and where her 'basic' times fall in that listing (under rates her because her times are at basic but not those on the list, however, essentially all the athletes listed well above her, e.g. the top 300+ for the 100, would have 'basic' times that are ahead of hers, so would still be ahead of her marks on the list).
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Thu May 17, 2012 7:16 am

[Part II hitting a limit of 1000 characters]

What I saw was the her 100 times was > 500th, the 200 mark, much higher (~325?), the 400 time around 50th and the 800 mark about 11th (or 3rd?). Clearly, she moved up the list systematically until the 800. Sure, training has something to do with that, but the gradient is so steep that it seems unlikely that she should be in the sprinter category, with the possible exception of the 400.

However, I also indicated that if it is "true" that the 400 is her 'best' distance, it is as much because her 800 did not have as much upside and so she was not a world-class athlete. Conversely, the 75% that I attached to her likelihood of being better included some non-trivial likelihood of being pretty good.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby gh » Thu May 17, 2012 7:27 am

Jacksf wrote:The University of Oregon official athletics website lists some of those marks as her bests (see below). So I'm sure he would assume they were legal marks. I did....


Having nothing to do with the current debate, but allow me to issue a blanket warning that trusting any "official" school site (even one has high-end as Oregon's) will more often than not lead you down a rosy path.

These sites are not put together/maintained by anybody with any statistical expertise in the sport and things like wind readings basically don't exist to SIDs (particularly now that the NCAA itself is so laissez-faire in that department when it comes to Q marks).
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Thu May 17, 2012 7:48 am

I quoted 11.90 and 24.01 and both are wind-aided. But that's IRRELEVANT! Most high school times are not IAAF official; it would STILL put Roesler in the top percentile. Let's deal with the 24.30 (or the 11.97) and compare it against other sophomore sprinters who stayed on the sprint path.

-Ashton Purvis, soph '08. 11.89 and 24.31 (NOW: 11.17/22.90)
-Briana Nelson, soph '08. 12.24/24.44 (NOW: 23.63/52.38)
-Brianna Frazier, soph '08. 24.46 (NOW: 52.25)
-Amber Purvis, soph '06, 24.48 (NOW:11.21/22.74/52.80)
-Candace McGrone, soph '06, 11.95/24.36 (NOW: 11.08/22.81)
-Marlena Wesh, soph '07. 12.04/24.26 (NOW: 11.70/23.06/51.43)
-Stacey Ann Smith, senr '08. 11.91/24.12 (NOW: 23.27/52.83)

Hopefully this ENDS the ridiculously illigitimate contention about windy times her sophomore year; suggesting that she wasn't fast enough to be trained as a sprinter! It's not just a red-herring, it's bullshit! She stacks up favorably against her peers at the same relative age!
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Thu May 17, 2012 7:53 am

26, you don't know the difference between "speed work" and "sprint training". Look through all my posts and you will see either "trained like a sprinter" or "sprint training"; until you understand the difference YOU WILL ALWAYS BE WRONG and it will be impossible to prove our point to you. (I've always allowed that she could be an 800m runner; you've never allowed that she could have been a sprinter. That's arrogant and foolish!). One other thing: tone down your rhetorical flourishes and you might actually type (even with one arm) what you mean to say.

26mi235 wrote:In this corner we have experts that are winning multiple national championships and who are pretty high up the pay-grade structure for the sport. They see these athletes for many, many hours and their reputations depend on how well they do their job ...

How many NCAA Champs finals has Roesler been eligible for? How many NCAA finals has she qualified for? How many has she won? I'm not trying to shit on UO coaches here; I'm just saying, and have been saying from the beginning, that if she had begun sprint training she could have been as good as her sprint peers. UO is doing a good job -I've never said they weren't- but this idea that she is DEFINITELY an 800m runner has been a product of the athlete from before she arrived at UO. By comparison, but for conventional wisdom, Usain Bolt would be running some half-hearted 400's right now and the sports attention would be in freefall. SOMETIMES THE BEST COACHES SEE WHAT THEY WANT TO SEE! Roesler IS an 800m runner and that's not difficult to see, and she will eventually run faster, the question will be how much faster for a girl who ran 2:03.08 at age 16! (last year she ran 2:03.12)
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Thu May 17, 2012 9:12 am

preston wrote:26,... (I've always allowed that she could be an 800m runner; you've never allowed that she could have been a sprinter. That's arrogant and foolish!).



[26mi235: (I do think that there is as much as a 25% chance that she could be better at the 400 [not quite what I have been painted as asserting] but virtually zero likelihood at anything shorter,...


I should note that you had not been as cavalier on the sprint mark as I ascribed.

Finally, citing athletes that had good but not great sprint marks at 16 but strong marks now is not necessarily relevant to LR. She was posting good times across the board from the time she was in middle school and was a very early developer, not one on a 'normal' schedule.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Thu May 17, 2012 9:39 am

26mi235 wrote:... but virtually zero likelihood at anything shorter,...


When she was a sophomore in high school what would have told you that she had "ZERO LIKELIHOOD AT ANYTHING SHORTER"? I already showed where both Purvis' and McGrone ran under 23 or 11.20. Is that not successful? They're all A-standard marks!

50% of todays' women 400m runners and 400h who can run less than 52 seconds could run 2:08 or better if they trained for it for 2 years and in most cases would pull it off in one - without any material changes in their sprint training. On page 1 of this thread...Monique Hennagan, winner of the 2004 Olympic trials at 400m [she also set the then meet record], won the '96 NCAA 800m in 2:03.27 and got 4th at 400m. Maybe she should have moved up to the 800, but 4th at the Olympic Games and #1 American means that she was damn successful. Her progression below.

100 Metres
(29) - 2005 11.26 0.1
(28) - 2004 11.32 1.1
200 Metres
(29) - 2005 22.87 1.2
(28) - 2004 22.97 0.6
(25) - 2001 23.23 0.0
400 Metres
(29) - 2005 50.24
(28) - 2004 49.56
(27) - 2003 51.46
(26) - 2002 51.04
(25) - 2001 50.98
(24) - 2000 50.82
(23) - 1999 51.05
(22) - 1998 51.11
(18) - 1994 52.25
(16) - 1992 54.19
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby preston » Thu May 17, 2012 9:45 am

26mi235 wrote:...She was posting good times across the board from the time she was in middle school and was a very early developer, not one on a 'normal' schedule.

That is a reach! You have NO way of knowing if she was an early developer and I never said she was or wasn't. It is VERY possible, if not likely, that all of her mid-distance/distance training actually retarded her sprint development and had she not run the XC, 800, etc that by her senior year she could have run 11.3...just like Jenna Prandini who ran 11.91 as what? wait for it...a little more... just a bit...ok, i promise, right after this...A sophomore in high school!
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby gh » Thu May 17, 2012 10:00 am

the classic three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics. And I've certainly used all three!

Herewith, my bottom-line "analysis" of Roesler, which ignores every number she has ever recorded. While others "see" it differently, based on every race I've ever seen her run in person (starting with the OT in '08, where she blew me away), she has looked like a classic halfmiler to me, not a sprinter, plain and simple.

I'd like to believe that no matter what the training, elemental speed remains in evidence, and I've never seen her produce anything like that. Great wheels for a half miler, but nothing more than that.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Thu May 17, 2012 10:01 am

OK, we simply disagree.

My notion is that in order to be a very good short sprinter, you have to have innate sprint ability that shows itself given much chance, while the longer the distance goes [100=>200=>400] the more the training will affect the athletes relative position on the lists. I just think that LRs marks are too far down the lists at the short end for her to have much chance.

You know a lot more about sprint training and are convinced that she 'could have been a contender' at the short sprints and that it took a lot more specific training than she apparently got.

I still think that from the perspective of 2008 or later most people would have thought that her chances of making the OT Finals in the 100 were less than for the 200, which were less than for the 400, which were less than for the 800, which were (much) greater than for the 1500.

We will never know because now there is little chance we will see her focus on the 100 or even the 200. My guess is that you two are in the minority in thinking she has/had her best top-level potential in the shortest sprints.
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Re: Which event for Laura Roesler? [split]

Postby gh » Thu May 17, 2012 10:05 am

a ps to my note one above: that's my final word on the subject and I'm now outta this one.
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