Coach's Corner


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Coach's Corner

Postby mojo » Wed May 18, 2011 6:19 pm

I know there are a few very experienced coaches around here...thought I would vent about one of my coaching pet peeves and see what others think.

Every year we have a few incidents of other coaches either trying to "poach" our athletes or to coach them at meets. While the quality of our athletes ais not up with many areas they do very well locally year after year.
Whether at a local meet or at the provincial or national level we invariable hear or have our athletes tell us about coaches coming up to them DURING a competition to either offer advice or suggest that they might want to come to their club., coaching situation. Of course this does not happen until they are performing at a reasonably high level-before that they wouldn't know the athletes name. 99% know that we coach them-my DH is pretty well know in this country and certainly extremely well known in our city.

It happened today -and from a coach that we recently welcomed into our club and went out of way to make feel part of the local scene. He had emailed and talked to my husband about the running technique of one of our kids. Husband emailed and discussed his points with him-he does not agree with the other coach's observations and told him so. Fine. Well after a race today the other coach pulled our athlete aside and gave her a ten minute lecture on what she is doing wrong-according to him. This violates the code of ethics our coaches are suppose to adhere to and is just a shitty thing to do IMHO.

We discuss this with all our athletes and tell them to be polite and tell the coach that they have a coach and if they would like they can talk to them (us).

Never in a million years would we interfere with another coach's athletes. Even on national or provincial teams my DH knows his role is not to "coach" the athletes under his supervision, but to facilitate anything they may need-times of their events, maybe mark their runup,and deal with logistical concerns etc.. He would never start trying to change their technique-even if he saw changes that should be made. At the very most he would pass his thoughts on to the athlete's real coach, and only if he knew the coach and thought they might want to hear his thoughts.

If anyone has any other stories or advice on how they handle these kinds of situation I would love to hear it.
If not well this is a great place to vent!
Last edited by mojo on Thu May 19, 2011 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby Marlow » Wed May 18, 2011 7:08 pm

Being a HS coach, not club, this has never happened to me, but it sounds like you need to clear the air with ALL your athletes every so often and tell them about how these poachers operate. I have a huge meeting with my team of 90 after the first week of practice every year and then another one just before the post-season, to go over all sorts of stuff. This would be a very good topic for such a meeting.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby mojo » Wed May 18, 2011 8:42 pm

Thanks Marlow.

We talk to each of the kids when they reach the point when it seems they are "on the radar "so to speak. Coaches don't pay much attention until the kid does something to make them notice and then they want to coach them. :roll: :roll: Like I said above we tell them to politely tell the coach that they have a coach (and tell his name as everyone knows Ron) and if they persist tell them to say "please talk to my coach about that".

It is just depressing that it still happens even though we have extensive coaching seminars and clinics where ethics are stressed.

I can only imagine what upper level athletes have to contend with before they get a posse of agents, coaches etc. to shelter them. :shock:
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby rainy.here » Wed May 18, 2011 9:11 pm

In this part of BC mojo, there aren't enough coaches so this isn't a problem, but I certainly understand your frustration.

A high level athlete I coach in club runs for a different school and has a coach there (I also coach school). I'm basically trying to stay out of his way and try to go with the flow until school season ends, especially since he was coaching her before me.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby lonewolf » Thu May 19, 2011 5:02 am

I understand mojo's angst/ire/dilema and have a related/reverse question/situation.
I am not a coach but have learned a few things about T&F, especially the horizontal jumps, in 70 years of participation/observation.
I seldom address an athlete personally and never about their technique. Still, I see kids with worlds of potential who have a coach but no knowlegeable coaching. Sometimes, I cringe when I hear what well-meaning but completely clueless coachs are telling their kids.
I don't want to step on any coach's toes. How can I impart my "wisdom" without offending or infringing on the coach's territory?
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby Marlow » Thu May 19, 2011 6:11 am

lonewolf wrote:Sometimes, I cringe when I hear what well-meaning but completely clueless coachs are telling their kids.

That's the worst and I hear it all the time. I hear things that will ensure their own athletes will do WORSE, and even though it means my kids will win, I still want to say something. The only event where I'll intervene on another coach's athlete is in the PV, because of the safety factor, but even then, I'll tell the athlete to check with their own coach also. The nice thing about the PV community is that no one seems to mind.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby 7-sided » Thu May 19, 2011 6:14 am

Though "poaching" (what a misnomer) is probably an annoyance, it's hardly illegal - nor should it be. It's also the way of the world and I don't see it as a big deal (full disclosure: I also believe in no-holds-barred recruiting, too). The reality is that regardless of the ethics, or lacktherof, from the offending coach the choice is with the athlete. Another way to think of it is coaches never have athletes; athletes have coaches.

And, while a coach should not be coaching another coaches athletes in competition* what I do see as a big deal and somewhat unbecoming is a coach actually counselling athletes to beware of being recruited; to NOT listen to a coach/situation that actually may be a better fit. That's not the coach's job! When an athlete gets to the point where they actually are listening to another coach, then it probably means that their current coach has failed somewhere (even if that means failure to temper unrealistic expectations). In the cases where the coach has done an incredible job and an athlete feels that they are better off elsewhere - or at least willing to entertain listening to how they might benefit, then they have already lost the athlete. Let them go.

Absolutely zero sympathy for mojo's "plight" to put it mildly. :roll:

*very often see "cooperation" among field event athlete/coaches.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby mojo » Thu May 19, 2011 6:59 am

Wow 7-sided you have no clue do you?

Of course athletes are free to go to another coach-our athletes are extremely happy with us coaching them but we would NEVER hold them back if they wanted to leave. We have indeed helped athletes gets scholarships to the US and in Canada.We only want what is best for them-you don't know us but I can assure you we have little ego in all this. One of our athletes decided he wanted to run the 800 and that is not an event we want to coach so we helped him find a new one. He is very happy and we are happy for him.


I disagree completely with you that it is okay for coaches to go up to athletes at meets and try and get them to join their group. If an athlete is unhappy and looking for a new coach -fine. They should tell their coach and then feel free to look for a new one.

By the way the recent situation had nothing to do with recruiting-it was coaching at a comp and that is not okay. Period. Our athelte told us about it-because she felt very awkward and annoyed by it.
We are always interested to hear what coaches have to say about our athletes. Come to us, share your observations and we can consider it.
I think our way of handling it with our athletes is the right way to do it. We do not tell them other coaches are wrong or don't what they are talking about-we say respect them but get them to talk to us.
The kids are relieved to have a line to say-it is very difficult for them to be assertive with an adult.
I have seen every kind of situation-from coaches who do mean well to ones who will make a comment to an athletes to throw them off their game. I had this happened to me-one particular coach (and rainy. here you would know of this guy-he still coaches over 30 years later) come up to me in warm up and say something about my lead leg looking bad, or telling me that I "had been hitting the cooki jar over the winter".I was 5"6 and 125 pounds-hardly overweight). Just happened to be running against one of his girls.


Lonewolf-I coach and offciate and yes I have to bite my tongue when I see kids who could obviously use some help. It is not our place (Officals should never coach during a comp!)....so I keep quiet. It IS tough but it is wrong to interfere.

If a kid is not in a club or does not have a coach then by all means a coach can approach them...but we always start with..."do you have a coach?" If they yes we leave it at that and wish them luck. If they don't we tell them about our club.. If they express interest we will not go any further until we can talk to a parent or teacher.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby DJG » Thu May 19, 2011 7:09 am

7-sided wrote:Though "poaching" (what a misnomer) is probably an annoyance, it's hardly illegal - nor should it be. It's also the way of the world and I don't see it as a big deal (full disclosure: I also believe in no-holds-barred recruiting, too). The reality is that regardless of the ethics, or lacktherof, from the offending coach the choice is with the athlete. Another way to think of it is coaches never have athletes; athletes have coaches.

And, while a coach should not be coaching another coaches athletes in competition* what I do see as a big deal and somewhat unbecoming is a coach actually counselling athletes to beware of being recruited; to NOT listen to a coach/situation that actually may be a better fit. That's not the coach's job! When an athlete gets to the point where they actually are listening to another coach, then it probably means that their current coach has failed somewhere (even if that means failure to temper unrealistic expectations). In the cases where the coach has done an incredible job and an athlete feels that they are better off elsewhere - or at least willing to entertain listening to how they might benefit, then they have already lost the athlete. Let them go.

Absolutely zero sympathy for mojo's "plight" to put it mildly. :roll:

*very often see "cooperation" among field event athlete/coaches.


On the high school level, 7-sided, if you tried that 'recruiting' around our league, you would not be happy with the consequences. I assume you are talking elite level, where, I'm told "coaches don't have athletes", but "athletes have coaches, and agents, and physical therapists, ...."

My advice to other coaches' athletes is restricted to 'safety concerns' as mentioned, and helping teams prevent DQ's from uniform violations and standing in the wrong exchange
zones (4x200): One district meet I saved three girl's 4x2's and not one coach complained.
(Or thanked me for that matter- presumably unaware of my good deeds).
Athletes and coaches from other schools ask for my advice all the time. For me, it is just good sportmanship and a good example being set for my athletes.

Mojo has an legitimate beef, and has every right to protect her athletes.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby El Toro » Thu May 19, 2011 7:12 am

I agree with 7-sided that it is pointless to try and keep "your" athletes from being seduced away from you, however, I do note that seducers are frequently lonewolf's "coach without coaching knowledge". :roll:

Every coach should accept that athletes may move on either to a better situation, in which case you should be happy for the athlete, or to a worse situation, in which case you should indulge in as much smug satisfaction as makes you happy. :twisted:

The golden rule, however, is that you never accept anybody back if things go wrong, no matter how talented they are or how much you might like them or much time you've put into them previously. You just don't want to waste your time on fuckwits with poor judgement.

I used to actively encourage my athletes to work by themselves with other coaches at clinics or at secretly proffered "introductory" sessions, confident in the knowledge that I was not going to lose in the comparison. I never lost any athlete to another coach although a few athletes came to subsequent sessions with a "Coach X told me to do this and it worked, why didn't you ever tell me to try that?"

This was usually well answered by other squad members with something like PUNCH! You dumb @#$% PUNCH!, EVERYBODY, tells PUNCH! you PUNCH! that EVERY @#$#%% PUNCH! session, PUNCH! but you PUNCH! are PUNCH! too @$#% PUNCH! stupid PUNCH! to @$@% PUNCH! listen PUNCH! PUNCH! PUNCH!

I call that sort of caring and joyous group feedback esprit de corps :D
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby 7-sided » Thu May 19, 2011 7:53 am

Thank you, El Toro. That's all I was saying and you hit the nail on the head in understanding my point. Can't find where I said that soliciting athletes at a meet was ok, but, whatever. :?

DJG wrote:On the high school level, 7-sided, if you tried that 'recruiting' around our league, you would not be happy with the consequences. I assume you are talking elite level, where, I'm told "coaches don't have athletes", but "athletes have coaches, and agents, and physical therapists, ...."

No, I'm not talking about the elite in this case (though I believe it for all athletes), I'm talking about age-group/grassroots and high school. Also, I'm saddened that you actually believe that restricting recruiting is a good thing and that your league [seems?] has created barriers to prevent it. Why?
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby mojo » Thu May 19, 2011 9:30 am

I am all for univerisites recruitng promising athletes and have helped several athletes get scholarships. Always happy to see a young person get their education paid for and an opportunity to train in a warm climate! But we also take the time to explain the pros and cons of going to a big US university-many Canadian kids have no idea what they are in for and don't last more than a year. Nothing wrong with giving it a try and if that is what they want we do everything in our power to help. Can't count all the reference letters we have written.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby 26mi235 » Thu May 19, 2011 11:59 am

Count me as one that is not in much agreement with 7, although that is not unusual.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby DJG » Fri May 20, 2011 8:34 am

7-sided wrote:Thank you, El Toro. That's all I was saying and you hit the nail on the head in understanding my point. Can't find where I said that soliciting athletes at a meet was ok, but, whatever. :?

DJG wrote:On the high school level, 7-sided, if you tried that 'recruiting' around our league, you would not be happy with the consequences. I assume you are talking elite level, where, I'm told "coaches don't have athletes", but "athletes have coaches, and agents, and physical therapists, ...."

No, I'm not talking about the elite in this case (though I believe it for all athletes), I'm talking about age-group/grassroots and high school. Also, I'm saddened that you actually believe that restricting recruiting is a good thing and that your league [seems?] has created barriers to prevent it. Why?


Recruiting high school athletes is not allowed among our 17 team league. Football and basketball programs (as well as track and field) all through the state are closely monitored by the State Athletic Assoc.
and strict penalties are imposed on those caught recruiting.
Be saddened all you want about my opposition to recruiting high school athletes, but I am
quite confident that your belief -that this recruiting is good -is a position held by few.
Like I said, your recruiting in these parts would cost you dearly.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby 7-sided » Fri May 20, 2011 9:49 am

DJG wrote:Recruiting high school athletes is not allowed among our 17 team league. Football and basketball programs (as well as track and field) all through the state are closely monitored by the State Athletic Assoc.
and strict penalties are imposed on those caught recruiting.
Be saddened all you want about my opposition to recruiting high school athletes, but I am
quite confident that your belief -that this recruiting is good -is a position held by few.
Like I said, your recruiting in these parts would cost you dearly.

Thanks for answering and explaining why "recruiting would cost dearly" in your parts. I still don't see what good your position (restrict recruiting) does for high school athletes but what it doesn't do is make my postion less right - at least in my opinion. So we'll have to agree to disagree. That said, I wish the right legal case could/would come along that sues your State Athletics Assoc into oblivion so that the athletes/coaches/schools are no longer imprisoned by what I consider to be a stupid rule.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby mojo » Fri May 20, 2011 1:40 pm

Things are quite different in the US I think. Rarely is an athlete here recruited to go to another high school (if that is what recruitng high schoolers means to you guys). If an athlete switches schools without moving they have to sit out a year of school sports. It is quite strictly enforced.

Some of you guys are missing my point-the ethical side of interefering with another coa
ches athlete behind their back. If you have something to say say it to the coach. No sneaking behind their backs-that is dead wrong.

It is quite amusing how coaches think they are the ONE, they have all the answers...if an athlete is coming to their attention because they are doing well is it not common sense and courtesy to connect the dots-maybe they have a good coach and are happy with their situation?

But oh no they need MY unsolicited words of wisdom to be even better... :roll: :roll:
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby DJG » Sun May 22, 2011 9:58 am

7-sided wrote:
DJG wrote:Recruiting high school athletes is not allowed among our 17 team league. Football and basketball programs (as well as track and field) all through the state are closely monitored by the State Athletic Assoc.
and strict penalties are imposed on those caught recruiting.
Be saddened all you want about my opposition to recruiting high school athletes, but I am
quite confident that your belief -that this recruiting is good -is a position held by few.
Like I said, your recruiting in these parts would cost you dearly.

Thanks for answering and explaining why "recruiting would cost dearly" in your parts. I still don't see what good your position (restrict recruiting) does for high school athletes but what it doesn't do is make my postion less right - at least in my opinion. So we'll have to agree to disagree. That said, I wish the right legal case could/would come along that sues your State Athletics Assoc into oblivion so that the athletes/coaches/schools are no longer imprisoned by what I consider to be a stupid rule.

7-sided, Don't have time to get you caught up on ethics and sportsmanship; your position is so obviously out of touch with my philosophy on recruiting high school athletes, that we must remain in disagreement. The Ohio High School Athletic Association is very capable of handling any legal case
that comes their way. They have faced many challenges before so I very much doubt your wish will ever come true. You would not be a coach in this state, and if you were and were caught recruiting you would be fired and the school would not be allowed to participate in the state tournament.
Most athletic directors and school principals prefer being in the good graces of the State Assoc. of which they are voluntarily members.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby DJG » Sun May 22, 2011 10:01 am

mojo wrote:Things are quite different in the US I think. Rarely is an athlete here recruited to go to another high school (if that is what recruitng high schoolers means to you guys). If an athlete switches schools without moving they have to sit out a year of school sports. It is quite strictly enforced.

Some of you guys are missing my point-the ethical side of interefering with another coa
ches athlete behind their back. If you have something to say say it to the coach. No sneaking behind their backs-that is dead wrong.

It is quite amusing how coaches think they are the ONE, they have all the answers...if an athlete is coming to their attention because they are doing well is it not common sense and courtesy to connect the dots-maybe they have a good coach and are happy with their situation?

But oh no they need MY unsolicited words of wisdom to be even better... :roll: :roll:


Mojo, You are 100% correct. These coaches you desribe are unethical. Confront them and expose their behavior for all to see. Good luck.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby 7-sided » Sun May 22, 2011 10:52 am

... "get [me] caught up on [your version of] sportsmanship and ethics", and "out of touch"? :roll: However, it appears that my obviously alien viewpoints have found voice in an actual bill in Utah that will eliminate, for the most part, transfer restrictions - nearly universally. I applaud Utah for a giant step forward, if enacted (I think the bill may have been defeated...), and welcome the day that all other states, including the progressively restrained state of Ohio, does the same.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7001 ... -rule.html
SB 53, which is sponsored by Senator Mark Madsen, R-Tooele, will allow students to transfer from one high school to another freely without losing athletic eligibility and therefore replace the high school transfer rule currently in place by the Utah High School Activities Association.

Under Madsen's proposed bill, "it creates a window — December 1 to June 30 — during which, if a transfer is approved —meaning, there is room for the student at the receiving school — regardless of the reason of transfer, the student would be eligible to participate in all activities the following year," said UHSAA director Bart Thompson.

While the bill does include the provision that a student who has been recruited for athletic purposes will be prohibited from participating, Thompson says that's extremely difficult to prove.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby Marlow » Sun May 22, 2011 12:06 pm

7-sided wrote:I welcome the day that all other states, including the progressively restrained state of Ohio, does the same.

Good luck with that. Recruiting in HS is anathema to any kind of ethical code of conduct in the coaching ranks. It has to do with respect and responsibility.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby 26mi235 » Sun May 22, 2011 2:40 pm

7-sided wrote: an actual bill in Utah that will eliminate, for the most part, transfer restrictions

Banning transfer restrictions and condoning or even allowing recruiting are not the same thing.

Note that most sports leagues ban even making contact for much of the year.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby DJG » Mon May 23, 2011 8:28 am

7-sided wrote:... "get [me] caught up on [your version of] sportsmanship and ethics", and "out of touch"? :roll: However, it appears that my obviously alien viewpoints have found voice in an actual bill in Utah that will eliminate, for the most part, transfer restrictions - nearly universally. I applaud Utah for a giant step forward, if enacted (I think the bill may have been defeated...), and welcome the day that all other states, including the progressively restrained state of Ohio, does the same.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7001 ... -rule.html
SB 53, which is sponsored by Senator Mark Madsen, R-Tooele, will allow students to transfer from one high school to another freely without losing athletic eligibility and therefore replace the high school transfer rule currently in place by the Utah High School Activities Association.

Under Madsen's proposed bill, "it creates a window — December 1 to June 30 — during which, if a transfer is approved —meaning, there is room for the student at the receiving school — regardless of the reason of transfer, the student would be eligible to participate in all activities the following year," said UHSAA director Bart Thompson.

While the bill does include the provision that a student who has been recruited for athletic purposes will be prohibited from participating, Thompson says that's extremely difficult to prove.


Don't know what fine state you are currently occupying, don't really care.
But the National Federation of High Schools has an online course you can take to get you up to speed on my and their philosophy and ethics.
Good luck.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby 26mi235 » Mon May 23, 2011 8:40 am

7-sided wrote:.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7001 ... -rule.html
While the bill does include the provision that a student who has been recruited for athletic purposes will be prohibited from participating, Thompson says that's extremely difficult to prove.


Contrary to your assertions, the bill specifically prohibits recruiting for athletic purposes. Also note that a track athlete would have to wait a whole year to compete. The big draw, football, would allow next-season competition and XC as well, but otherwise it knocks out a lot of recruiting incentive. Again, since it is against the rules but difficult to prove, only 'morals' stands in your way -- does that matter to you or not? [I am not very impressed with a 'not' answer and I think few others here would be either.]
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby jhc68 » Mon May 23, 2011 9:23 am

Recruiting in youth athletics: It's a troublesome issue.

I totally agree with mojo that coaches approaching athletes at competitions and attempting to lure them to another team situation is a very serious ethical breach. Even giving specific technical advice to an athlete on another team is out of line. But the reality is that there are lots of people involved in athletics who don't give a fig about ethics.

The world of club sports is a mess. There are plenty of knowledgeable, wise, principaled coaches who try to teach character while improving kids' performance levels. Then, again there are lots of ambitious coaches (who may or may not know what they are doing technically) who partner with egocentric, pushy parents to recruit all-star teams only to promote their own agendas, not necessarily for the long-range benefit of young athletes. It is a nasty business.

As for high school level recruiting, several posters have shown great confidence that recruiting either does not occur or that oversight agencies deal with it decisively. I don't share that confidence at all. Here in California we see high profile transfers on a regular basis and the sudden appearance of lots of high level athletes at certain schools even when the students live miles (in some cases MANY, MANY miles) away. Faith that recruiting does not occur at the high school level is naive in the extreme, and if you haven't seen it happen you will sometime soon. Truth is that HS sport regulating bodies are often unable to enforce even the most basic eligibilty rules when faced with legal challenges.

Currently, a 13-year old in my family is competing at the club level (not track but a sport that actually produces lots of revenue at the HS, D1 and professional level.) Since the kid shows huge physical potential the push and pull from other club coaches, other parents, and people who claim they represent high schools is both shameful and ludicrous.

Someone posted about the efficiency and effectiveness of the Ohio HS regulation. but I just saw Lebron on the ESPN highlights. Take a look at Lebron's HS adventures where local courts reversed the regulating agency's rulings in order to allow the fans to see the Chosen One play out his senior year. Ruling bodies depend on HS coaches, administrators and parents to actually play by the rules... when they don't then the the system is nearly helpless to enforce those rules.
Last edited by jhc68 on Mon May 23, 2011 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby Marlow » Mon May 23, 2011 9:36 am

jhc68 wrote:several posters have shown great confidence that recruiting either does not occur or that it oversight agencies deal with it decisively.

And I am not one. It happens all the time in Florida, but the coaches that do it know how to do it without violating the letter of the law. There are many, many ways to skirt the rules. I used to think it wasn't prevalent in T&F, but in the last few years I have seen it happen many times in our own little backwater sport. :(
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby mojo » Mon May 23, 2011 12:47 pm

My main focus was on coaches trying to coach other people's athletes at a meet.

We have not had many problems with coaches trying to "take" our athletes.

DH reminded me of the most egregious coaching interference we have ever experienced a few years ago. A very good high jumper of ours was on the apron getting ready to jump at our HS champs when a coach who had been bugging her at other meets went right up to her and gave her instructions as she was about to start her run up. Completely threw her off and she ended up in tears.

DH let the guy have a piece of mind over that one! Offending coach was later banned from coaching due to many complaints including making sexual comments to girls. :twisted: :twisted:

But we honestly have many great coaches around here....really!
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby 7-sided » Mon May 23, 2011 1:27 pm

26mi235 wrote:
7-sided wrote:.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7001 ... -rule.html
While the bill does include the provision that a student who has been recruited for athletic purposes will be prohibited from participating, Thompson says that's extremely difficult to prove.


Contrary to your assertions, the bill specifically prohibits recruiting for athletic purposes. Also note that a track athlete would have to wait a whole year to compete. The big draw, football, would allow next-season competition and XC as well, but otherwise it knocks out a lot of recruiting incentive. Again, since it is against the rules but difficult to prove, only 'morals' stands in your way -- does that matter to you or not? [I am not very impressed with a 'not' answer and I think few others here would be either.]

26, that is cheap, even for you. You've now stooped to selective editing? I made no assertions. I specifically noted the contents of the bill -even highlighting the part that says that it would prohibit recruiting, though it would make it difficult to prove.

Morals and ethics? Who gave you the right to judge? I support school vouchers for no other reason than to get around nonsense like no recruiting rules. A kid should be guaranteed the best possible educational environment. That would include academics as well as extracurriculars. And, here's the question for all of the "protecting the kids hypocrites": if protecting the kid is the primary goal, then why does the kid lose ANY eligibility? Why not ONLY punish the coach? or the recruiter? Because it's not about the kids, like always, this is about the adults! This is about adults looking out for their own interests (enforcing power, protecting losing/winning), not the interest of the kids.

Back to the thread. Mojo, for the record, I believe fervantly in no-holds barred recruiting, as you've probably guessed. I don't believe that a coach should be "coaching" your athlete at a meet - but after, or at their home, or calls to their parents, family/friends, etc. doesn't bother me one bit. Bring it out of the shadows. The part that surprises me, and El Toro posted about this, is that you care. You have often times pointed to the qualifications of your husband and I've also read some of your theories, etc on coaching (a particularly enlightened piece on lifting heavy weight...) and it boggles my mind that it bothers you. Either the kid, the parent, or the offending coach will soon learn the mistake they made. Take a deep breath and move onto another deserving and unnoticed project that the recruiting coaches can't wait to steal.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby Marlow » Mon May 23, 2011 1:41 pm

7-sided wrote:Because it's not about the kids, like always, this is about the adults! This is about adults looking out for their own interests (enforcing power, protecting losing/winning), not the interest of the kids.

for the record, I believe fervantly in no-holds barred recruiting

:roll:
Apparently you do not see the huge disconnect here, so I'll spell it out for you: the no-recruiting rules are PRECISELY because of "Adults Acting Badly"!! How many 16-year-olds do you know that can separate the BS from the Truth, when Bad Adults are trying to fill their own teams with the best athletes they can?! The coaches who 'recruit' are NOT in it for the kids, exactly as you point out; they're in it for themselves, and they say what they can think up to get the kid to come to their team, so THEY, THE ADULTS will look good.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby Pego » Mon May 23, 2011 1:49 pm

7-sided wrote:I support school vouchers for no other reason than to get around nonsense like no recruiting rules.


I have no dog in this fight (debate), but as a fervent champion of public educational system, this bothers me.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby jhc68 » Mon May 23, 2011 2:00 pm

I'm not interested in debating with 7, but I will throw in my opinion that I think almost every attitude that 7 has articulated on this thread is wrong on many levels.
And, yeah, that is a moral judgment and nobody appointed me as the arbitor of morality here. But we all make ethical judgments many times everyday... it's an integral part of life.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby DJG » Tue May 24, 2011 7:54 am

jhc68 wrote:Recruiting in youth athletics: It's a troublesome issue.

I totally agree with mojo that coaches approaching athletes at competitions and attempting to lure them to another team situation is a very serious ethical breach. Even giving specific technical advice to an athlete on another team is out of line. But the reality is that there are lots of people involved in athletics who don't give a fig about ethics.

The world of club sports is a mess. There are plenty of knowledgeable, wise, principaled coaches who try to teach character while improving kids' performance levels. Then, again there are lots of ambitious coaches (who may or may not know what they are doing technically) who partner with egocentric, pushy parents to recruit all-star teams only to promote their own agendas, not necessarily for the long-range benefit of young athletes. It is a nasty business.

As for high school level recruiting, several posters have shown great confidence that recruiting either does not occur or that oversight agencies deal with it decisively. I don't share that confidence at all. Here in California we see high profile transfers on a regular basis and the sudden appearance of lots of high level athletes at certain schools even when the students live miles (in some cases MANY, MANY miles) away. Faith that recruiting does not occur at the high school level is naive in the extreme, and if you haven't seen it happen you will sometime soon. Truth is that HS sport regulating bodies are often unable to enforce even the most basic eligibilty rules when faced with legal challenges.

Currently, a 13-year old in my family is competing at the club level (not track but a sport that actually produces lots of revenue at the HS, D1 and professional level.) Since the kid shows huge physical potential the push and pull from other club coaches, other parents, and people who claim they represent high schools is both shameful and ludicrous.

Someone posted about the efficiency and effectiveness of the Ohio HS regulation. but I just saw Lebron on the ESPN highlights. Take a look at Lebron's HS adventures where local courts reversed the regulating agency's rulings in order to allow the fans to see the Chosen One play out his senior year. Ruling bodies depend on HS coaches, administrators and parents to actually play by the rules... when they don't then the the system is nearly helpless to enforce those rules.


OHSAA (Ohio High School Athletic Assoc.) isn't perfect. And I know of several track-related cases that the courts have gotten wrong. The LeBron James case was a complete fiasco.
I'm not blind to the reality of recruiting going on in Ohio. OHSAA catches some, but certainly not all. (Gerry Faust recruited troughout the Greater Cincinnati area when he built Moeller into a football powerhouse, his rule-breaking helped land him the Notre Dame football job, that worked out well for him and ND, and Moeller has never been the same since.)
7-sided views are just plain wrong. But I'm impressed by his courage in dispalying his stupidty.
Or am I being too restrained?
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby 7-sided » Tue May 24, 2011 11:14 am

So let me see if I have this right: I'm morally bankrupt, ethically challenged and stupid. :lol:

DJG, you're way too emotionally invested in this issue to be coherent (Moeller/Faust/ND argument makes no sense whatsover, but that's NOT a surprise coming from you); I mean you're just being hysterical (in an Edvard Munch way, not Eddie Murphy)!
DJG wrote:Or am I being too restrained?

For the time being you're obviously not being restrained but when your computer time expires I'm sure you'll be marshalled back to your tie-in-the-back full-sleeved shirt and padded cell.

Pego wrote:
7-sided wrote:I support school vouchers for no other reason than to get around nonsense like no recruiting rules.


I have no dog in this fight (debate), but as a fervent champion of public educational system, this bothers me.

It doesn't have to be either/or; it can be both and. I, too am a champion of the Public education system but it has to work for the children, not just the adults (teachers, administrators/parents).
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby Marlow » Tue May 24, 2011 11:22 am

So, 7, do you still not see that recruiting is restricted to PROTECT the HS students from unscrupulous coaches, whom you yourself have identified as frequently being self-serving to the DETRIMENT of the athletes? Coaches tell lies and offer inducement to HS athletes, which even the parents have no way of differentiating the BS from the truth.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby 7-sided » Tue May 24, 2011 11:54 am

Marlow wrote:So, 7, do you still not see that recruiting is restricted to PROTECT the HS students from unscrupulous coaches, whom you yourself have identified as frequently being self-serving to the DETRIMENT of the athletes? Coaches tell lies and offer inducement to HS athletes, which even the parents have no way of differentiating the BS from the truth.

"You want it to be one way....but it's the other way" - Marlo (The Wire)

Marlow, from the quote above...come on. I acknowledge that there are unscrupulous coaches but lets put this in a bit of perspective: this is about coaches losing, too; it's the other way. This is about football and basketball; track is just the stepchild that gets fed because there is food still left at the table. This is about adults. This is also about opportunity.

...kids these days are more capable of handling these things then we give them credit for. I don't think that any of these HSAA's have students best interest at heart. It's about power and the kids don't have any. I just believe that a kid should NEVER lose eligibility for something as harmless as transferring!
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby Marlow » Tue May 24, 2011 12:29 pm

7-sided wrote:...kids these days are more capable of handling these things then we give them credit for. I don't think that any of these HSAA's have students best interest at heart. It's about power and the kids don't have any. I just believe that a kid should NEVER lose eligibility for something as harmless as transferring!

Spoken by someone who can't possibly be in the trenches with them every day. There's a reason why minors aren't adjudicated as adults. They still TRUST adults to be on their side. Sorry, but you are hopelessly misinformed on this issue . . .
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby polevaultpower » Tue May 24, 2011 12:44 pm

lonewolf wrote:I understand mojo's angst/ire/dilema and have a related/reverse question/situation.
I am not a coach but have learned a few things about T&F, especially the horizontal jumps, in 70 years of participation/observation.
I seldom address an athlete personally and never about their technique. Still, I see kids with worlds of potential who have a coach but no knowlegeable coaching. Sometimes, I cringe when I hear what well-meaning but completely clueless coachs are telling their kids.
I don't want to step on any coach's toes. How can I impart my "wisdom" without offending or infringing on the coach's territory?


The best solution is to chat briefly with their coach, if possible. If they seem receptive you could get into more detail.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby 7-sided » Tue May 24, 2011 1:07 pm

Marlow wrote:
7-sided wrote:...kids these days are more capable of handling these things then we give them credit for. I don't think that any of these HSAA's have students best interest at heart. It's about power and the kids don't have any. I just believe that a kid should NEVER lose eligibility for something as harmless as transferring!

Spoken by someone who can't possibly be in the trenches with them every day. There's a reason why minors aren't adjudicated as adults. They still TRUST adults to be on their side. Sorry, but you are hopelessly misinformed on this issue . . .

Spoken by someone who takes his time "in the trenches" far too seriously. There's a reason why they have parents; you need to stop living vicariously as their personal guide to a hiccup free life. I can give you several examples of minors being adjudicated like adults, but it probably doesn't happen much to the overly privileged kids you serve every day so you probably don't know/care a lot about it. :roll: But those kids, those "other" kids and their parents, who aren't so lucky will have to do with one of those "unscrupulous coaches" offering them help to a better education (athletically and academically).
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby DJG » Wed May 25, 2011 8:31 am

7-sided wrote:So let me see if I have this right: I'm morally bankrupt, ethically challenged and stupid. :lol:

DJG, you're way too emotionally invested in this issue to be coherent (Moeller/Faust/ND argument makes no sense whatsover, but that's NOT a surprise coming from you); I mean you're just being hysterical (in an Edvard Munch way, not Eddie Murphy)!
DJG wrote:Or am I being too restrained?

For the time being you're obviously not being restrained but when your computer time expires I'm sure you'll be marshalled back to your tie-in-the-back full-sleeved shirt and padded cell.

Pego wrote:
7-sided wrote:I support school vouchers for no other reason than to get around nonsense like no recruiting rules.


I have no dog in this fight (debate), but as a fervent champion of public educational system, this bothers me.

It doesn't have to be either/or; it can be both and. I, too am a champion of the Public education system but it has to work for the children, not just the adults (teachers, administrators/parents).


"Too emotionally invested"? quite a statement from someone who is presumably a coach/teacher.
You wouldn't happen to be in Jersey? Would you?
Our Regional meet is this evening and State Meet is June 3,4. Where are you coaching this week? NOWHERE? Just as I thought.
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Re: Coach's Corner

Postby Daisy » Wed May 25, 2011 8:56 am

It strikes me that the 'unscrupulous parents' have not been mentioned yet.
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