Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"


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Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby ATK » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:37 pm

I think after the recent Rieti marks it has become unclear what makes a tier and which sprinters belong in each. Although it is opinionated to a certain extent, I think most of it is pretty clear cut and based on facts.

I think on time (both fast and relative to the competition in the race) and not medals or championship placings. You could have more/higher medals but if your not faster than the next guy, your just not in his class.

Consistency is the main key to this. You can hit a time but if your unable to back this time up its pretty irrelevant in terms of where you place. Also consistency in terms of who you compete with and beat in your races throughout the season.

And also I believe wind and altitude and all those other adjustments are irrelevant when It comes to this. pretty simple, if runner a runs 9.40 with a 2.0w and runner B goes 9.41 in a 1.0w, who gets the WR.(which is also why consistency is so important)

Here is how I think the current runners should be ranked with 3 tiers.
Tier 1: Bolt*, Gay, Powell
Tier 2: Dix, Blake, Thompson, D.Baliey, Carter*, Patton
Tier 3: R.Baliey, Lamietre, Frater, I.Williams, Rodgers, Martina,(possibly some others)

I put Bolt and Carter with a star because they are both ahead of their class but I don't believe they are in a class of their own(or the next class up for Carter)

I find this pretty interesting and would really like to hear some reasons for why you put someone somewhere and what you define each tier as.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:11 pm

ATK wrote:And also I believe wind and altitude and all those other adjustments are irrelevant when It comes to this. pretty simple, if runner a runs 9.40 with a 2.0w and runner B goes 9.41 in a 1.0w, who gets the WR.(which is also why consistency is so important)

The 100 WR is 10.49, and that mark is supposed to be better than, say 10.64? Just because it is a WR does not make it worthy of being the best mark. Consider the discus, where quarter winds make a big difference. Is a long throw in a wind-tunnel better than a throw of less distance under normal conditions?

If you cannot bet your life on the true underlying nature of the mark then it is a misleading mark and I do not really care that it is the WR. Are sprint times with winds of 2.00 much better than those with wind of 2.01? The former would get a record, the latter would not but the qualitative difference would be nil.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby 7-sided » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:43 am

ATK wrote:...Here is how I think the current runners should be ranked with 3 tiers.
Tier 1: Bolt*, Gay, Powell
Tier 2: Dix, Blake, Thompson, D.Baliey, Carter*, Patton
Tier 3: R.Baliey, Lamietre, Frater, I.Williams, Rodgers, Martina,(possibly some others)

I put Bolt and Carter with a star because they are both ahead of their class but I don't believe they are in a class of their own(or the next class up for Carter)

I find this pretty interesting and would really like to hear some reasons for why you put someone somewhere and what you define each tier as.

I like your tiers, ATK, and I completely understand your grouping of both Bolt and Carter (though I elevated Carter...and many see Bolt in a class of his own). I see that you also leave Thompson in Tier-2 (I did too, but I don't feel great about it), but you haven't demoted D. Bailey to Tier-3? And, if you haven't demoted D. Bailey to Tier-3, then how do you demote Martina (who I believe SHOULD have been demoted)? Neither one has broken 10 this year. The biggest elephant in this china shop is Patton! He is getting a complete pass for NOT running this year. Is that fair?
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby Giant Panda » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:53 am

Patton also came eighth in the last two major finals, which kind of puts him in Marc Burns territory.
Last edited by Giant Panda on Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby gh » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:53 am

Forget Patton's not running this year. He's 31 in December, and has achieved two World Rankings in his entire career: No. 10 in '08 and No. 5 in '09. No OG/WC medals (8th in Beijing and Berlin both).

A world-class sprinter to be sure, but on the rung right below the Big 3?
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby Giant Panda » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:58 am

There are those guys like Zakari and Ezinwa who historically make finals and don't get much done despite having times from the circuit. But they do get to the finals.

Now maybe Patton is somebody like Ray Stewart who on the right day could have run a PB or grabbed a medal, but unfortunately it never happened.

Yes he made two US teams and has a fast time. But he qualified by 0.01 ahead of Travis Padgett and I don't see his name anywhere in this. It does seem Patton wasn't at full fitness in the end, but that's part of the game when it counts.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby JWiz » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:02 am

Tier 1: Bolt*, Gay, Powell
Tier 2: Dix, Blake, Thompson, D.Baliey, Carter*, Patton
Tier 3: R.Baliey, Lamietre, Frater, I.Williams, Rodgers, Martina,(possibly some others


Take Bailey and Patton out of Tier 2. Bailey has fallen off this year and Patton, wtf? Sorry, aint buying the Frenchie hype. He needs more consistency and sub 10s...10.13 for the European Champs, yikes! I'd drop R.Bailey down a tier too. He hadn't run sub 10 before Rieti and we don't know for sure if it was just a Fasuba run. Martina....meh.

Tier 1: The Holy Trinity
Tier 2: Carter, Dix, Blake...and reluctantly Thompson.
Tier 3: Frater, Williams, Rodgers, D.Bailey
Tier 4: Martina, R.Bailey, Frenchie, Kimmons, Chambers, Forsythe, the English sprinters..etc etc.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:09 am

JWiz: I can only quibble around the margins; Are these ranked in order within each Tier? (and Tier 1 would be BGP, of course).
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby gh » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:16 am

Ivory Williams as a 3? Has never world ranked (and won't this year). Best USATF finish ever is a 3rd in a depleted race this year. Getting too much credit for being a top-class indoor performer at 60m? His height (5-8/1.73) suggests a great starter with not enough top-end speed.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby odelltrclan » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:24 am

Where will Justin Gatlin end up in this mix?
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby 7-sided » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:25 am

JWiz wrote:
Tier 1: Bolt*, Gay, Powell
Tier 2: Dix, Blake, Thompson, D.Baliey, Carter*, Patton
Tier 3: R.Baliey, Lamietre, Frater, I.Williams, Rodgers, Martina,(possibly some others


Take Bailey and Patton out of Tier 2. Bailey has fallen off this year and Patton, wtf? Sorry, aint buying the Frenchie hype. He needs more consistency and sub 10s...10.13 for the European Champs, yikes! I'd drop R.Bailey down a tier too. He hadn't run sub 10 before Rieti and we don't know for sure if it was just a Fasuba run. Martina....meh.

Tier 1: The Holy Trinity
Tier 2: Carter, Dix, Blake...and reluctantly Thompson.
Tier 3: Frater, Williams, Rodgers, D.Bailey
Tier 4: Martina, R.Bailey, Frenchie, Kimmons, Chambers, Forsythe, the English sprinters..etc etc.

JWiz, I have to pull back the curtain...are you mad?!? :lol: Frater, Williams and Rodgers in tier-3, but Lemaitre, and others, in tier-4? First, unless we are going to have 75 tiers for the top 75 sprinters then it is pointless to have a 4th (5th, 6th) tier. I like Frater, but this year? No. Frater, Williams and Rodgers are in the same tier as Lemaitre, especially, if Carter can't jump out of tier-2 to tier-1. You actually rank Lemaitre and "the English sprinters" together? :shock: :roll: "the English sprinters" (minus Dwain) are not worthy of a tier.

Also, some of you (obviously, JWiz, and a few others that won't be named..."shiv, you out there?"), seem to be bothered my Lemaitre's "presence" in the 100m. He's here, he's consistent and he earned it (and he strongly plays down the nonsense hype that may shortcircuit his development). Cut him some slack, the kids the real deal.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby gh » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:30 am

7-sided wrote:[.... "the English sprinters" (minus Dwain) are not worthy of a tier....


tears, on the other hand.... :mrgreen:
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby JWiz » Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:19 am

7-sided wrote:JWiz, I have to pull back the curtain...are you mad?!? :lol: Frater, Williams and Rodgers in tier-3, but Lemaitre, and others, in tier-4? First, unless we are going to have 75 tiers for the top 75 sprinters then it is pointless to have a 4th (5th, 6th) tier. I like Frater, but this year? No. Frater, Williams and Rodgers are in the same tier as Lemaitre, especially, if Carter can't jump out of tier-2 to tier-1. You actually rank Lemaitre and "the English sprinters" together? :shock: :roll: "the English sprinters" (minus Dwain) are not worthy of a tier.

Also, some of you (obviously, JWiz, and a few others that won't be named..."shiv, you out there?"), seem to be bothered my Lemaitre's "presence" in the 100m. He's here, he's consistent and he earned it (and he strongly plays down the nonsense hype that may shortcircuit his development). Cut him some slack, the kids the real deal.


I'm perfectly sane...atleast I think so. :D

I agree with gh, Williams probably doesn't belong in the 3. As for Frater and the like, yeah not so much this year but they have been consistent in the past. If we are talking about this year. We may as well eliminate tier 3 altogether. I'm not sure what you're getting at with my supposed problem with Frenchie's "presence" in the 100m. I don't have a problem at all. Discounting Rieti, the guy ran sub 10 once. His winning time for the Euros places him last in the Beijing and Berlin final. Sure, props to the kid...but in the grand scheme of things he's a tadpole. He hasn't earned diddly squat at this point and wouldn't break the heats of a Olympic or WC event.

So, my final ranking (based on this year) would be (in no particular order)

Tier 1: The Holy Trinity
Tier 2: Blake, Dix, Carter
Tier 3: Thompson
Tier 4: Everybody else.



I think the men have a clear pecking order. Let us have some real fun and tier the women. :twisted:
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby 7-sided » Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:52 am

JWiz wrote:I'm perfectly sane...atleast I think so. :D

I agree with gh, Williams probably doesn't belong in the 3. As for Frater and the like, yeah not so much this year but they have been consistent in the past. If we are talking about this year. We may as well eliminate tier 3 altogether. I'm not sure what you're getting at with my supposed problem with Frenchie's "presence" in the 100m. I don't have a problem at all. Discounting Rieti, the guy ran sub 10 once. His winning time for the Euros places him last in the Beijing and Berlin final. Sure, props to the kid...but in the grand scheme of things he's a tadpole. He hasn't earned diddly squat at this point and wouldn't break the heats of a Olympic or WC event.

So, my final ranking (based on this year) would be (in no particular order)

Tier 1: The Holy Trinity
Tier 2: Blake, Dix, Carter
Tier 3: Thompson
Tier 4: Everybody else.

Ok, then clearly you don't understand what these tiers were supposed to delineate. I can't begin to understand your methodology or if you are even using one! It's like you just chose the names that you recognized or the athletes that you liked (or didn't like in the case of Lemaitre). Tier 3 is sub-10.10 to about 9.9mid/low. For the most part, these sprinters are the same; they will beat each other, but their times will remain within that range. Lemaitre has CONSISTENTLY run sub-10.10 and what he did at Euro's is irrelevant (not unlike N.Carter in Zagreb :roll: ). Add in the reported injury before Barcelona and I hear former Jets coach, Herm Edwards' voice angry at a press conference...

sidebar: As for what I am getting at in the case of Lemaitre ... racism, by you and a few other posters (many black or Jamaican). There I said it! It's like your entire world has been turned upside down by the fact that one non-west african ancestry sprinter has run sub-10; 3 times at that! One guy! He's the European Junior record holder! 10.04 in 2009! A raw 20-year old sprinter has a few of you over-scrutinizing his every race. He has not acted like Shirvo, the italians or any of the other self-promoters who have neared the mark, yet you dismiss his entire season. He beat all of the Europeans all season long, and he bested a lot of non-Europeans, too! It makes me question all of your other analysis
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:14 am

Lemaitre has a couple things going for him in terms of Tiers for next year, which could be above where he is this year.

First and foremost, he is YOUNG and dTime/dAge < 0 to a greater extent than virtually anyone else on these lists.

Second, he has been winning within his context (Euros) and does not seem particularly intimidated (although the number of observations is small). He was one of my quibbles alluded to above, where I would have put him into the group above (3 vs 4 I think).

Third, he runs the 200 and so is less likely than the 100-only guys to lose a little at the end in big races. [I am not sure why I think Carter fades a bit does relative to his equivalent (maybe the Gay standard is too tough, but I think he had better be ahead of Dix through 50 or he will finish behind him), since it seems he does run the 200 at a good level, but people could clearly educate me here.]
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby gh » Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:18 am

not to pervert the original thrust of the thread, but your mention of Lemaître as a 200 guy reminds me that if he wants international success he could/should consider specializing there, since has already shown a strong interest, unlike so many of the other dilettantes. An event that's classicaly weak-weak-weak at the OG/WC level, with high places (and even medals, sometimes) there for the "easy" taking.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby JWiz » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:01 am

7-sided wrote:Ok, then clearly you don't understand what these tiers were supposed to delineate. I can't begin to understand your methodology or if you are even using one! It's like you just chose the names that you recognized or the athletes that you liked (or didn't like in the case of Lemaitre). Tier 3 is sub-10.10 to about 9.9mid/low. For the most part, these sprinters are the same; they will beat each other, but their times will remain within that range. Lemaitre has CONSISTENTLY run sub-10.10 and what he did at Euro's is irrelevant (not unlike N.Carter in Zagreb :roll: ). Add in the reported injury before Barcelona and I hear former Jets coach, Herm Edwards' voice angry at a press conference...

sidebar: As for what I am getting at in the case of Lemaitre ... racism, by you and a few other posters (many black or Jamaican). There I said it! It's like your entire world has been turned upside down by the fact that one non-west african ancestry sprinter has run sub-10; 3 times at that! One guy! He's the European Junior record holder! 10.04 in 2009! A raw 20-year old sprinter has a few of you over-scrutinizing his every race. He has not acted like Shirvo, the italians or any of the other self-promoters who have neared the mark, yet you dismiss his entire season. He beat all of the Europeans all season long, and he bested a lot of non-Europeans, too! It makes me question all of your other analysis



Okay, now I see what's going on here. My ranking is not based wholly on performance, but times and past performance. Good for Frenchie ( I can't be bothered to butcher or mis-spell his name so deal with it) that he's the fastest guy in Europe but guess what. European sprinting is far below the standards of the United States and the Caribbean. I'm no racist, nor have I discussed Frenchie in any great detail on this forum before now, so whatever history you're basing this on is fabricated bullshit. The only racist here is you, and your overbearing paranoia that I have something against Frenchie because he's white and I don't rank him like you do.

Dix, Carter and Blake have been consistent this year. All have run sub 9.90. So what about Carter and Zagreb? You're ranking Frenchie on performance alone. If I lined up those four in 10 one-off races, he'd come last 9 times out of ten. Thompson hasn't been good and one could make the arguement that he's not even teir 3 this year, but I'd bet he make finals over Frenchie consistently and he's the Olympic silver medalist. That leaves "Everybody Else." You mad? Them the breaks son. He's a good sprinter, but a tadpole in the grand scheme of things. Oh and he's white, who gives a f**k. Grow up.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby ATK » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:32 am

Aside from Tyson and Asafa, 2008 and 2009 really brought all new faces to the 100m. So these past 3 years are really what im basing the list of off and using credentials for not just this year

I am very hesitant to put Patton in any tier because of his age, but 08 and 09 showed what he has, running consistently under 10 and generally running behind the main pack, or other tier 2 guys. D.Baliey came on in 09 and really showed his stuff also running consistent sub 10 and coming behind the big 3 or others. yes this year wasn't as fast for him, but I think he was consistent enough in 09 to gain a spot there.
I think it was discussed before about how Thompson is getting a lot of credit for his beijing run, but he has showed that he is usually finishing right behind the big 3, or winning in their absence(only real opportunity was in NY).
I really believed Martina could have been the next great doubler, but his past 2 years have been slow, although he has gone sub 9 a few times, he hasn't been consistent as the tier 2 guys(not only in times but also in placing on the circuit)

Really everyone else has done some consistent sub 10 runs, but really cant compete when it comes to the guys higher up. Frater im mixed about because he seems to be on the fence. And I probably am giving R.Baliey to much credit for the 2 sub 10's in Rieti.

But like I said before I dont consider home someone placed in "Big meets" to really have any value to this and rankings as well. I just dont think its fair when setting up these classes.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby valleyrunner » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:35 am

I am not going to argue what tier certain athletes are in for 2010 but project where they will be in August 2011. My take on this being that is really what this argument is about. That means trying to determine who is going to show improvement and who is going to show age, regression, whatever.

2011 Tier 1 (medalists) - Bolt, Gay, Carter

2011 Tier 2 (other finalists) - Powell, R Bailey, Blake, Dix, D Bailey

2011 Tier 3 (possible finalists but likely semis only) - Thompson, Lemeitre, Martina, Ndure, Frater*, Forsythe*, Mullings*, Kimmons**, Gatlin**, Rogers** Sorry no Brits appear ready to step up their game at this point although maybe someone will. I would include Demps but I hear if football goes well he is 100% sure he will head to NFL.

* - Jamaica can only get 4 into meet so they could supplant some others if injuries occur.
** - US will only get 3 so these could be in the next tier but appear just off

In the 200 my tiers would be this:

2011 Tier 1 (medalists) - Bolt, Gay, Spearman
2011 Tier 2 (other finalists) - Blake, R Bailey, Mullings, Lemeitre, Martina
2011 Tier 3 (possible finalists) - Dix***, X Carter**, C Mitchell**, Guliyev, Sorrillo, Malcolm

*** - Dix could obviously be higher but his consistency level of being healthy is a worry and his latest injury is very serious and I see the US 3-some projecting faster anyway unless Dix can improve. Certainly he showed for a few DL races he could this year but then he was bitten again
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby 7-sided » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:54 am

and that was a very adult post. Well, it wasn't but I don't think you have the emotional stability to handle much criticism. Anyway, here it comes... It looks like you take your posts, and yourself, far too seriously. So, actually, it is you who should grow up. You are no racist? Whatever! Your posts say it all; no need to deny it now. You focus on ONE athlete [straw man] to knock down. European standards have nothing to do with the actual athlete. We all know that he is well ABOVE Euro standards AND he has beaten many athletes from beyond europe as well - your deflection is just that.

As for your model...well, it isn't one. If it were, there would be a better explanation, given your criteria, for Thompson - aside from sticking him in a tier by himself, before ultimately saying that he isn't tier-3? What? :lol: It's not that you don't rank Lemaitre like I do, it's that you really have not created a ranking - that's thoughtful, mind you - at all.

...to prove that you know nothing about the tiers, you want to put Lemaitre in a tiered race with Dix, Carter and Blake? No one ever said/implied that they were ever on the same level or to be ranked in the same tier. Except you! But, you declare that he would be last 9 out of 10 times? How, pray tell, would he get that one win? He's obviously outclassed; he currently doesn't have a prayer against those 3. Why didn't you just choose Jeter or Fraser? But, you would have to pay attention to the season or know something about sprinting to know that.

Now, you bring up Carter at Zagreb? Is Bolt at Stockholm next? Btw, do you know what an outlier is? (Carter at Zagreb :roll: )
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby 7-sided » Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:11 am

valleyrunner wrote:I ....project where they will be in August 2011...That means trying to determine who is going to show improvement and who is going to show age, regression, whatever.

2011 Tier 1 (medalists) - Bolt, Gay, Carter
2011 Tier 2 (other finalists) - Powell, R Bailey, Blake, Dix, D Bailey
2011 Tier 3 (possible finalists but likely semis only) - Thompson, Lemeitre, Martina, Ndure, Frater*, Forsythe*, Mullings*, Kimmons**, Gatlin**, Rogers** Sorry no Brits appear ready to step up their game at this point although maybe someone will.
In the 200 my tiers would be this:

2011 Tier 1 (medalists) - Bolt, Gay, Spearman
2011 Tier 2 (other finalists) - Blake, R Bailey, Mullings, Lemeitre, Martina
2011 Tier 3 (possible finalists) - Dix***, X Carter**, C Mitchell**, Guliyev, Sorrillo, Malcolm

That's how I see the tier/classes as well: medallists, finalists, possible finalists. I like how you see 2011 shaping up too: Thompson and Martina as "possible finalists", but both Bailey's in the final, and no Powell in the medals. That's strong. Did you forget about Alonso in the deuce, or do you see his injury as more serious than reported? Lemaitre as a finalist at 200? I never even thought about Sorrillo, though I would love for Thompson to get back to running the deuce. You really go out on a limb for some of these. I like it!
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby valleyrunner » Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:35 am

7-sided asked:

Did you forget about Alonso in the deuce, or do you see his injury as more serious than reported?

Actually I overlooked him even though I meant to include him when I started. I say he is a finalist to possible finalist. His injury has been serious, same level as Dix and we will see how he returns to action in 2011 but it would be foolish to discount him as he has shown he is a tremendous talent.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:06 pm

7-sided wrote:Btw, do you know what an outlier is? (Carter at Zagreb)


When your outlier on the poor side (supposedly) is probably your biggest race of the year it raises at least a yellow flag. AP had the habit of having outliers in his biggest races; Carter is not there, but it was a particularly poor time to have an off performance.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby JWiz » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:25 pm

7-sided wrote:and that was a very adult post. Well, it wasn't but I don't think you have the emotional stability to handle much criticism. Anyway, here it comes... It looks like you take your posts, and yourself, far too seriously. So, actually, it is you who should grow up. You are no racist? Whatever! Your posts say it all; no need to deny it now. You focus on ONE athlete [straw man] to knock down. European standards have nothing to do with the actual athlete. We all know that he is well ABOVE Euro standards AND he has beaten many athletes from beyond europe as well - your deflection is just that.

As for your model...well, it isn't one. If it were, there would be a better explanation, given your criteria, for Thompson - aside from sticking him in a tier by himself, before ultimately saying that he isn't tier-3? What? :lol: It's not that you don't rank Lemaitre like I do, it's that you really have not created a ranking - that's thoughtful, mind you - at all.

...to prove that you know nothing about the tiers, you want to put Lemaitre in a tiered race with Dix, Carter and Blake? No one ever said/implied that they were ever on the same level or to be ranked in the same tier. Except you! But, you declare that he would be last 9 out of 10 times? How, pray tell, would he get that one win? He's obviously outclassed; he currently doesn't have a prayer against those 3. Why didn't you just choose Jeter or Fraser? But, you would have to pay attention to the season or know something about sprinting to know that.

Now, you bring up Carter at Zagreb? Is Bolt at Stockholm next? Btw, do you know what an outlier is? (Carter at Zagreb :roll: )


Sir, truth be told. We are all racists on this spit of rock. We've all been raised with pre-conceived notions of skin color and prejudices. I don't take myself seriously at all, nor do I give a hoot what you think. I brought up Carter and Zagreb because you did genius. I say take your own advice. You could have presented your disagreement and held a proper debate but instead hide behind your callow fasade under the notion of discrimination? No, you saw what you precieved as an injustice and pulled a Al Sharpton.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby 7-sided » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:42 pm

JWiz wrote:Sir, truth be told. We are all racists on this spit of rock. We've all been raised with pre-conceived notions of skin color and prejudices. I don't take myself seriously at all, nor do I give a hoot what you think. I brought up Carter and Zagreb because you did genius. I say take your own advice. You could have presented your disagreement and held a proper debate but instead hide behind your callow fasade under the notion of discrimination? No, you saw what you precieved as an injustice and pulled a Al Sharpton.

And, sadly, you pulled a Palin ("poor, l'il, aggrieved me" :wink: - even added a wink for you. Thank me later)

We're not all racists, feel free to speak for yourself. Since you don't know what an outlier is than me describing Lemaitre's time at EC's and Carter's time at Zagreb as irrelevant must have been totally over your head. I will try to write more to your level in the future.

26, I agree it was a bad time to have that outlier (Carter), but he was still more than .1 up on the next fastest, iirc. I think Carter wasn't as bad as his time, but that Tyson was better than his [Tyson] time.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby t_monk » Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:51 pm

Tier 1: Bolt*, Gay, Powell
Tier 2: Carter**, Blake, Dix***
Tier 3: Leamitre****, Thompson+, Frater, Kimmons, Williams, Ndure

Of note: Rodgers, Martina, Patton, Forsythe, R. Bailey, Bledman, L. Clarke, M. Burns, D. Chambers

The of notes... between last and this season they have either disappointed or have shown too little consistency for me to rank them. Forsythe's one sub-10 needs to be backed up, same with Bailey's. Patton and Padgett has been MIA all season. Martina seems to be bothered by injuries and consistency since 2008. Bledman started the season well but faded. L. Clarke never showed again what he showed last season and I doubt he'll really ever show better than what he has previously shown. Burns is consistent around championship years, in and around 10.00. Chambers is consistent around 10 as well, much like Burns. Rodgers had about 2 good races all season... not enough.

*Bolt is superior in his group and will beat everyone as long as he's serious
**Carter is ahead of his tier and is Bolt-like to his tier IMHO (for now at least). I think he is borderline in tier 1 on his good day. Also taking into consideration his injury woes, I would be intrigued to see exactly where he can place in a season devoid of injuries.
***Dix is only BARELY in tier 2. I still think he's a 9.9x basic sprinter while everyone else in this category is in the 10.8mid-low basic region. He gets here by birth of his ability to show up each time he competes.
****Lemaitre to me is RAW TALENT. Watching his race I don't see one athlete I can say at the elite level with so much to fix than this guy, and he is consistently sub-10 - 10.0x in ok conditions.
+Thompson has the championship credentials but his times this season and his competitiveness as the season progressed diminished instead of got better. His start was still there, but everything else was missing. Am guessing he got injured mid season.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby ATK » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:04 pm

T-monk : I agree that Carter is Bolt like to his tier.
But basically what your saying is that Dix cant run with Blake and he is actually closer to the likes of Leamitre, Kimmons, Ndure and the others?

And how would Blake and Dix be 9.8 mid to low when their PR's are both 9.8 high?

And Ndure?

This shouldn't be based solely off this season, If that was the case, Bolt would be tier 2...
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby t_monk » Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:11 am

ATK wrote:T-monk : I agree that Carter is Bolt like to his tier.
But basically what your saying is that Dix cant run with Blake and he is actually closer to the likes of Leamitre, Kimmons, Ndure and the others?

And how would Blake and Dix be 9.8 mid to low when their PR's are both 9.8 high?

And Ndure?

This shouldn't be based solely off this season, If that was the case, Bolt would be tier 2...


Dix has only ran sub-9.90 once and this was with a +1.0w while Blake's 9.89 was in a -0.4w... Blake's time was ran in that London meet, which (if I recall correctly) was less than favorably sprinting conditions, to me that would equate to about a 9.8mid basic time.

Dix is closer to Nesta and Blake than he is to Lemaitre, Kimmons, Ndure and the others but out of that tier 2 set of runners, he is now closer to the tier 3 than anyone. My issue with Dix is other than the Oly 2008 and parts of 2010 he has been a dud on the international scene especially in the 100. Am not sure if its the money or if its his training but he seldom runs against any top ranked 100m runners (in the 100m). Do I think when he's fit he will beat EVERYONE in tier 3 in the 100? Yes. Do I think he'd run a basic 9.8mid? I think he can but he as yet to do that. Will he beat an in form Blake and Carter? NOPE!

Ndure gets a place (just barely) because of the fact that he has been competing all season with his times being consistent. Most of the others have been inconsistent with varying degrees of success. He seems perpetually stuck in the 10.0x range thus far and to be honest I do see him being eclipsed in the next season, I'd be very surprised if he makes the finals of the WC next year if everyone else rallies back to top or near top form.

This isn't based solely on this season because Frater wouldn't be there if so. Thompson might not have made it either. Dix would be tier 3 in the 100 (as much as with R. Bailey's one really fast time in the 100 so would I have judged his 9.88), Bolt would remain in tier 1 but Gay would be the dominant sprinter IMHO and I could have made an argument to move Carter to tier 1.

I like how things are set up for next season... a lot will be banking on the first couple of weeks and training in the off season. A lot of interesting times are before us....
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby ATK » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:15 am

sorry still cant agree. Your right, adjusted, Blake's PR is 9.86 while Dix would still have his 9.91 from Berlin. But Blake and Dix are pretty even in terms of times. In Dix's first major season 2008, his top 4 times averaged to 9.95, while Blake's times in 2009 were 10.00.
In 2010, Dix came out with 9.97 while Blake was at 9.92. (times used were all adjusted)

And Dix has been way more consistent in terms of who he runs against. Besides the big 3, in 08' and 10' Dix has Only lost to Thompson once and Carter once in his top 4 races of each year. Blake on the other hand, in his top 4 races of each year, has lost to D.Baliey 3 times in 09', Thompson and Patton once each in 09' and Carter in 10'.

Unfortunately Dix pulled up in London so we never got to see the outcome of that race. Blake did not really hit the international scene in 2008 and Dix was injured all of 2009, and coulda woulda shoulda is pointless. So until next year when they are hopefully both fully healthy, they are pretty much even, with Dix if anything having the advantage in terms of competition.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby t_monk » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:38 am

ATK wrote:sorry still cant agree. Your right, adjusted, Blake's PR is 9.86 while Dix would still have his 9.91 from Berlin. But Blake and Dix are pretty even in terms of times. In Dix's first major season 2008, his top 4 times averaged to 9.95, while Blake's times in 2009 were 10.00.
In 2010, Dix came out with 9.97 while Blake was at 9.92. (times used were all adjusted)

And Dix has been way more consistent in terms of who he runs against. Besides the big 3, in 08' and 10' Dix has Only lost to Thompson once and Carter once in his top 4 races of each year. Blake on the other hand, in his top 4 races of each year, has lost to D.Baliey 3 times in 09', Thompson and Patton once each in 09' and Carter in 10'.

Unfortunately Dix pulled up in London so we never got to see the outcome of that race. Blake did not really hit the international scene in 2008 and Dix was injured all of 2009, and coulda woulda shoulda is pointless. So until next year when they are hopefully both fully healthy, they are pretty much even, with Dix if anything having the advantage in terms of competition.


I understand and I don't see much of a difference between the two in all honesty. Dix and Blake could go either way I think, but I would pick Blake to win 2 out of 3 against Dix. Quite frankly I think the only reason Dix doesn't seem more unimpressive in the head-head match ups is because he doesn't compete as much in the 100 against upper echelon of track outside majors.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:48 am

Remember that one reason that Dix does not race the 100 as often as others is because he is in the Tier 1B in the 200 along with Spearmon (Bolt/Gay are 1A). [Also, a reminder for non-Americans (who will probably remember it more easily) that Dix had a contract dispute that kept him out of racing many of the major non-champ type of meets in 2009.]
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby Gordon18 » Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:54 am

I would say if anything it would be:

Bolt in tier 1
Tyson tier 2A
DIx, Blake and Spearmon tier 2B

Dix, Blake and Spearmon are closer to Tyson than Tyson is to Bolt If you want to look at PB or SB In the 200.

Tyson hasn't run the 200 at full peak in a while so his PB would probably come down a tenth. but as of right now this is how I see it.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:47 pm

Gay's 19.62 (+/-) in poor conditions at US Trials that last of 8 races when his PR was about 9.82 gives you a clue what he could run full out - probably 19.4 or better (about the same as his earlyish-season straight 200 of 19.44).

Bolt has some question marks that he has not had the last two years; Tyson does too, but he has shown an ability to race well at times even with difficulties and Bolt has not yet. I would say that my own assessment of Bolt winning at the WCs is probably down to 75-80%, with the likelihood of Gay winning, conditional on Bolt not winning being probably about as high.

I wonder what the odds makers as giving now?
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:51 pm

t_monk wrote:Tier 1: Bolt*, Gay, Powell
Tier 2: Carter**, Blake, Dix***
Tier 3: Leamitre****, Thompson+, Frater, Kimmons, Williams, Ndure

Of note: Rodgers, Martina, Patton, Forsythe, R. Bailey, Bledman, L. Clarke, M. Burns, D. Chambers


Given today's results, Gatlin is making his way to Tier 2 (or Frater to the 'Of note' category
1. Gatlin 10.15
2. Frater 10.26
Wind 0.4
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby t_monk » Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:28 pm

26mi235 wrote:
t_monk wrote:Tier 1: Bolt*, Gay, Powell
Tier 2: Carter**, Blake, Dix***
Tier 3: Leamitre****, Thompson+, Frater, Kimmons, Williams, Ndure

Of note: Rodgers, Martina, Patton, Forsythe, R. Bailey, Bledman, L. Clarke, M. Burns, D. Chambers


Given today's results, Gatlin is making his way to Tier 2 (or Frater to the 'Of note' category
1. Gatlin 10.15
2. Frater 10.26
Wind 0.4


WTF? Tier 2 for Gatlin? With a 10.15.... That makes him a 10.15-10.17 basic runner.... A 10.15 basic runner barely would make my 'of note' category. I agree with the demotion of Frater based on his times this season. But no way Gatlin makes tier 2. At best he makes the of note category. His SB of 10.09 doesn't even rank him in the top 20 or even 25 for the year. Gatlin's been training all year mind you >_> And beat a field of persons who either a) coming off a near PB (Frater's PB is 9.97 and he recently ran 9.97) b) someone who is coming off injury (Ashmead and Frater fills this category) c) a bunch of unknown sprinters and d) sprinters who are pretty much closing off their season. Gatlin would make the 'of note' category because he has potential for next season. Outside his 10.09 (in +0.9w mind you, equating him to a 10.1mid) he is exactly where I figure him to be.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby t_monk » Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:35 pm

26mi235 wrote:Remember that one reason that Dix does not race the 100 as often as others is because he is in the Tier 1B in the 200 along with Spearmon (Bolt/Gay are 1A). [Also, a reminder for non-Americans (who will probably remember it more easily) that Dix had a contract dispute that kept him out of racing many of the major non-champ type of meets in 2009.]

But Bolt runs the 200 fairly regularly and also there are hardly any circuit races for the 200, heck, Dix hardly runs circuit races in the 200 either. He doesn't run the circuit period. He falls in the same category as VCB, but unlike VCB he doesn't have the medals to back it up.

As per last year, the main reason he wasn't on circuit was because he was injured right? I know certain athletes with no representation what so ever but they are in downright every DL race there is. And I hardly counted 2009 because of said injury.

As for 2010, I expected him on the circuit, and he only opted to take on the 200 and the one 100 he opted to run in he got injured.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby DentyCracker » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:34 pm

7-sided wrote:
JWiz wrote:Sir, truth be told. We are all racists on this spit of rock. We've all been raised with pre-conceived notions of skin color and prejudices. I don't take myself seriously at all, nor do I give a hoot what you think. I brought up Carter and Zagreb because you did genius. I say take your own advice. You could have presented your disagreement and held a proper debate but instead hide behind your callow fasade under the notion of discrimination? No, you saw what you precieved as an injustice and pulled a Al Sharpton.

And, sadly, you pulled a Palin ("poor, l'il, aggrieved me" :wink: - even added a wink for you. Thank me later)

We're not all racists, feel free to speak for yourself. Since you don't know what an outlier is than me describing Lemaitre's time at EC's and Carter's time at Zagreb as irrelevant must have been totally over your head. I will try to write more to your level in the future.

26, I agree it was a bad time to have that outlier (Carter), but he was still more than .1 up on the next fastest, iirc. I think Carter wasn't as bad as his time, but that Tyson was better than his [Tyson] time.

You do realise that Tyson bounced Nesta in that race right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BFrUq5Y3mA
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby ATK » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:27 pm

t_monk wrote:
26mi235 wrote:Remember that one reason that Dix does not race the 100 as often as others is because he is in the Tier 1B in the 200 along with Spearmon (Bolt/Gay are 1A). [Also, a reminder for non-Americans (who will probably remember it more easily) that Dix had a contract dispute that kept him out of racing many of the major non-champ type of meets in 2009.]

But Bolt runs the 200 fairly regularly and also there are hardly any circuit races for the 200, heck, Dix hardly runs circuit races in the 200 either. He doesn't run the circuit period. He falls in the same category as VCB, but unlike VCB he doesn't have the medals to back it up.

Where did you get that info from? Bolt ran the 200 a total of 2 times this year, only 1 of them being on the regular circuit. Dix ran the 200 8 times this season, with 4 of them on the regular circuit, and 3 of them within an 8 day period. He actually only missed 2 of the other major circuit 200's, one of them for unknown reasons, and the second cause of injury. And im pretty sure there are enough 200's in the season, if Spearmon was able to find more than 10 of them to run in.
And VCB ran what 4 times on the circuit this year, and only one of them was a 200.

But in terms of the 100m, Dix hasn't been racing as much this season for whatever reason but when he has raced he has showed up, and i gave you the info, he has been able to put it together when it counts and also up against the lower crop of runners in the one off races. Blake has done the same but Dix has the slight advantage. With both in full peak fitness, I would put Dix over Blake without hesitation.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby shivfan » Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:12 am

7-sided wrote: some of you (obviously, JWiz, and a few others that won't be named..."shiv, you out there?"), seem to be bothered my Lemaitre's "presence" in the 100m. He's here, he's consistent and he earned it (and he strongly plays down the nonsense hype that may shortcircuit his development). Cut him some slack, the kids the real deal.

I heard the owl call my name....
:roll:
Lemaitre is good, but not that good...yet.

Sure, he won the 100 at the Euros against second-rate opposition. But what has he done since then? How many Diamond League events did he compete in? How did he do at Paris? Who were the sprinters who finished ahead of him at Rieti?

For the hell of it, here are my tiers....

Tier 1 - Bolt, Gay, Powell
Tier 2 - Carter, Blake, Thompson, Dix
Tier 3- Lemaitre, the Baileys, Kimmons, Rodgers, Frater, Martina, Williams, Patton, Padgett, Spearmon, Gatlin, Clarke

To me, there's a clear distinction between Tier 1 and Tier 2, and Tier 2 has a slight edge over Tier 3. However, I find it difficult to separate the athletes in Tier 3.
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Re: Mens 100m "Classes/Tiers"

Postby Giant Panda » Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:33 am

1 - Bolt
2- Gay
3 - The field
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