Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

[Giant Panda]

There's more chance of a fast dwarf running underneath the hurdles to break the record.

[Marlow]

most elites need another 2 feet (60cm) between hurdles, leaving the final run-in about 8 meters shorter.

Math not your strongest side?

I'm a TOE!

2'x9=18'
45'-18'=27'
27'x.3048=8.23m

whatamImissing?

[lonewolf]

This is fun.

[PCSExponent]

most elites need another 2 feet (60cm) between hurdles, leaving the final run-in about 8 meters shorter.

Math not your strongest side?

I'm a TOE!

2'x9=18'
45'-18'=27'
27'x.3048=8.23m

whatamImissing?

If you're a TOE, this is even worse
(hint- you said 8 meters shorter)

[Daisy]

Hilarious. Marlow you just demonstrated you don't have a math problem but a narrative problem.

[Marlow]

Math not your strongest side?

I'm a TOE!

2'x9=18'
45'-18'=27'
27'x.3048=8.23m

whatamImissing?

If you're a TOE, this is even worse
(hint- you said 8 meters shorter)

One of us is going to be VERY embarrassed here. If you push the spacing 2' further between hurdles, the run-in from the last hurdle to the finish line gets SHORTER!!!! Refute, please.

[PCSExponent]

^Marlow, reread. The final run-in will definitely be shorter. As you correctly showed with you immaculate arithmetics it will be roughly 8 meters long, or 8 meters short, if you like. It will definitely not be 8 meters SHORTER than any obvious quantity, most definitely not 8 meters shorter than the current final run-in. It will in fact be shorter by 18 feet, or about 5.5 meters.

[Daisy]

2'x9=18'
45'-18'=27'
27'x.3048=8.23m

whatamImissing?

If you're a TOE, this is even worse
(hint- you said 8 meters shorter)

One of us is going to VERY embarrassed here. If you push the spacing 2' further between hurdles, the run-in from the last hurdle to the finish line gets SHORTER!!!! Refute, please.

The run in would need to be 18' shorter (about 5.5m shorter). It would have to be 27' (about 8m) compared to the current 45'.

[Marlow]

If you're a TOE, this is even worse
(hint- you said 8 meters shorter)

One of us is going to VERY embarrassed here. If you push the spacing 2' further between hurdles, the run-in from the last hurdle to the finish line gets SHORTER!!!! Refute, please.

The run in would need to be 18' shorter. It would have to be 27' compared to the current 45'.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - now I get it!
As I said - I are a Anglish teecher, not a mathomathikal teacher.

[Daisy]

The run in would need to be 18' shorter. It would have to be 27' compared to the current 45'.

Isn't that what I just EFFIN said?

No, you should have said is would be about 5.5m shorter.

[Daisy]

As I said - I are a Anglish teecher, not a mathomathikal teacher.

There you go!

[Marlow]

The run in would need to be 18' shorter. It would have to be 27' compared to the current 45'.

Isn't that what I just EFFIN said?

No, you should have said is would be about 5.5m shorter.

So, it wasn't the 'shorter' part; it was the 8v5 part! So sue me!!! So why were you making fun of my grammactication skilz?

[Daisy]

So, it wasn't the 'shorter' part; it was the 8v5 part! So sue me!!! So why were you making fun of my grammactication skilz?

Oh, so now you're claiming it was a mathmatical error

I think we all assumed you meant to write:
"That's not nearly enough. HS and college can stay the same spacing, but most elites need another 2 feet (60cm) between hurdles, leaving the final run-in about 8 meters."

We assumed the addition of the word 'shorter' was a mistake.

[Marlow]

So, it wasn't the 'shorter' part; it was the 8v5 part! So sue me!!! So why were you making fun of my grammactication skilz?

Oh, so now you're claiming to was a mathmatical error

Wasn't it (assuming your 'to' was an 'it') ?

I'm so confused!

[Daisy]

I'm so confused!

I'm just trying to get you ready for the new students

[Marlow]

I'm so confused!

I'm just trying to get you ready for the new students

Too late. I'm already a week and a half in, and they've already got me completely bamboozled.
I'm just hanging on for track season to start in January, so at least I'm outdoors in my befuddlement and can't walk into walls as much.

[richxx87]

It would be an interesting experiment to take some freakishly athletic basketball guys in the 6'-9" to 7' range and see, first, if they could do it, then see if they could it run fast enough to be viable on an international level in the low 13s.

I'm thinking a guy like 6'-11" Dwight Howard, maybe 6'-9" Kevin Durant ... there must be several others out there.

[Daisy]

I'm thinking a guy like 6'-11" Dwight Howard, maybe 6'-9" Kevin Durant ... there must be several others out there.

One problem is that you need to hurdle alternate lead leg. So you can't just take someone off the street. I'm guessing that it would take a while to get comfortable enough on the weak lead leg.

[rainy.here]

It would be an interesting experiment to take some freakishly athletic basketball guys in the 6'-9" to 7' range and see, first, if they could do it, then see if they could it run fast enough to be viable on an international level in the low 13s.

I'm thinking a guy like 6'-11" Dwight Howard, maybe 6'-9" Kevin Durant ... there must be several others out there.

There's a video of Dwight Howard sprinting in that Gay vs. Shaq thing. It was very dark, but anyone got dartfish? A stride length estimate might be possible.

[user4]

If Florian Schwarthoff didn't try it (he may have in practice, but never heard of it), I can't imagine anybody getting away with it.

and he certainly must have because it was one of the most excruciatingly painful things to watch him hurdle. It was a tortured constrained shuffle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvnS-hv1oYg

[gibson]

while the 2 step would seem to be impossible to many....
don't you think these athletes could 2 step at least a couple of hurdles?..

bubka
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AazZrr3o ... re=related
carl lewis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5Sg_kACPRM
stephan holm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVZ3ZcorTF0
jonathan edwards 2 step 18.4 meters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFt9Yzp484c
powell and lewis or what sprinters really look like when they are NOT on steroids/PEDS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... _MmrA&NR=1

but not....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ4fA_nw ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&featu ... cQ6VQtGKZw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0NzGjgg ... re=related

[mal]

I'm sure John Clease and the others in his troupe could give it a good go.

[gibson]

Hurdles First weighs in. http://www.hurdlesfirst.com/twostep.htm

To even think about two-stepping in an actual meet you have to be a little bit crazy. Maybe a lot of bit crazy. This is not just outside-the-box thinking. This is tear the damn box down thinking.

I was coaching a post-collegiate athlete a few years ago and we experimented with two-stepping a lot. He was able to do it some in practice, but it too much strain on his body. The idea would not be to two-step every hurdle because that would be physically impossible. The idea would be to two-step a maximum of four hurdles. In a sprint race, the drive phase lasts about 30-35 meters, so in a hurdle race you’d want to wait that long before trying to two-step.

I do believe, for now anyway, that the possibility of two-stepping is reserved for taller hurdlers. Probably you’re talking 6-4 or taller. It’s not just a matter of height; even more so, it’s a matter of speed

.

if bolt HAD to run the 110h don't you think that he'd be 2 stepping without taking any advice from anybody. 2 of bolts regular strides and a jump is how far? and with 19.19 200m speed endurance, would it be a big problem to keep going???

bolt in slow mo, freeze at the finish to get a feel and measure of stride length.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3gKkq6jjss

now hurdles first is not the foremost authority - the sub13 hurdlers are. what would they would think abolt the 2 step 110h??

[Marlow]

To even think about two-stepping in an actual meet you have to be a little bit crazy. Maybe a lot of bit crazy.
I was coaching a post-collegiate athlete a few years ago and we experimented with two-stepping a lot. He was able to do it some in practice,

Ok, so some random guy was able to do it in practice, but we don't think an elite could do it with more practice?
Yes, it would take a tall, very-fast guy to do it in the middle of a race, but it's certainly worth the experimentation. I certainly think Bolt (if motivated) could.

[18.99s]

Two-stepping will take much more than a few weeks of experimentation in practice before it can be done successfully in a high-level meet. It's a multi-year project to get all the aspects right -- the speed (will have to be a sub-10 flat 100m sprinter), sufficient power in both legs so either can be an effective takeoff leg, and the timing and mental sharpness to switch between 3-stepping and 2-stepping at different points in the race.

Now who would be willing to put their hurdling career on what would like a 2- or 3-year moratorium in order to master 2-stepping? And to stick with it during the initial couple years when it makes them slower and more crash-prone? It's probably going to take a bold college coach to try something like this, as I can't see any professional sacrificing a piece of their career to make this happen, at least not before somebody else has shown that it's possible.

[KDFINE]

Should the hurdles slightly closer together so that they could be two-stepped; or should the hurdles be further apart and the race longer so that taller runners wouldn't feel cramped by the current alignment? Could the right taller hurdler in a slightly longer race run faster than 12.80? Of course none of this could or should happen but I was just wondering.

[Conor Dary]

Should the hurdles slightly closer together so that they could be two-stepped; or should the hurdles be further apart and the race longer so that taller runners wouldn't feel cramped by the current alignment? Could the right taller hurdler in a slightly longer race run faster than 12.80? Of course none of this could or should happen but I was just wondering.

Of course, you could have a rule where you could put the hurdles where ever you want. Taller guys could put them closer together and 2 step it. On the downside I think the crowd would get a little bored as the hurdlers spend an hour getting their hurdles just so.

[Marlow]

Two-stepping will take much more than a few weeks of experimentation in practice before it can be done successfully in a high-level meet. It's a multi-year project to get all the aspects right -- the speed (will have to be a sub-10 flat 100m sprinter), sufficient power in both legs so either can be an effective takeoff leg, and the timing and mental sharpness to switch between 3-stepping and 2-stepping at different points in the race.

It would take one off-season.
Yes, it would take an extraordinary athlete with naturally long strides and high speed, but the rest is easy. And yes it would take a lot of courage, but the reward would be enormous. When my kids can go from 4-stepping to 3-stepping, they drop a second. This often happens in the 3rd race of a season. They are 'ready' and they are surprised how easy it was - AFTER the fact.
You don't need 'sufficient power in both legs' (the left push-off stride length is virtually equal to the right already - elongating it over a hurdle is not an issue).
There are no timing or mental sharpness issues either. I teach my hurdlers to alternate from Day 1 and they are adept at it in the 100/110 (before they can 3-step) and in the 300/400, where it is absolutely essential. If teens can do it at their top speed, elites can do it at theirs.

[mal]

Should the hurdles slightly closer together so that they could be two-stepped; or should the hurdles be further apart and the race longer so that taller runners wouldn't feel cramped by the current alignment? Could the right taller hurdler in a slightly longer race run faster than 12.80? Of course none of this could or should happen but I was just wondering.

Of course, you could have a rule where you could put the hurdles where ever you want. Taller guys could put them closer together and 2 step it. On the downside I think the crowd would get a little bored as the hurdlers spend an hour getting their hurdles just so.

I'd stack them all at one end and hurdle the lot in one jump, then run like heck to the finish.

[Conor Dary]

I'd stack them all at one end and hurdle the lot in one jump, then run like heck to the finish.

Yes, that would be one way. But I think it would be prudent to have a rule where they don't touch each other.

[gibson]

I'd stack them all at one end and hurdle the lot in one jump, then run like heck to the finish.

Yes, that would be one way. But I think it would be prudent to have a rule where they don't touch each other.

carl lewis would want to set them all at 101m 1 cm apart at the end and clear them all with a 9m long jump for 11 flat.

[18.99s]

It would take one off-season.

If it were so easy, somebody already would have done it.

That surely must take more than a single off-season. Maybe an off-year, like the even-numbered year between Olympics.

There are no timing or mental sharpness issues either. I teach my hurdlers to alternate from Day 1 and they are adept at it in the 100/110 (before they can 3-step) and in the 300/400, where it is absolutely essential. If teens can do it at their top speed, elites can do it at theirs.

But are they switching back and forth between 4-stepping and 3-stepping in the same race?

[Marlow]

If it were so easy, somebody already would have done it.

It would NOT be easy, either physically or especially psychologically. It IS out of the box!

But are they switching back and forth between 4-stepping and 3-stepping in the same race?

It's not unusual for a kid to start with 3-steps but have to switch to 4 for the last few.

[gibson]

in my book switching from 3 steps to 2 should take several years. maybe asking 400m hurdlers who switch from 14 to 13 steps is not a good idea as we're talking a completely different stride length and distance.

the ideal candidate would be a 15 year old that is an outstanding sprinter, a bolt clone.
i'd train him for several years before putting him in a race.
just do the training and run the open 100 / 200 until the 2 step is down pat.
then shock the world.

the biggest "hurdle" is to find an elite athlete that somehow thinks that running 110h is better than the "easier", much better paying and prestigious 100m race.
and our man is going to need one of those great pioneer coaches that come along only every so often.

an out of the box idea (not again!) would be to have nike sponsor our ideal candidate.
if successful, there'd be a lot of press and excitement for the sport.

[Marlow]

an out of the box idea (not again!) would be to have nike sponsor our ideal candidate. if successful, there'd be a lot of press and excitement for the sport.

I hope it happens in my lifetime, 'but at my back I always hear Time's winged chariot hurrying near' . . .