Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles


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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Daisy » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:59 am

Marlow wrote:As I said - I are a Anglish teecher, not a mathomathikal teacher.

There you go!
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:00 am

Daisy wrote:
Marlow wrote:
Daisy wrote:The run in would need to be 18' shorter. It would have to be 27' compared to the current 45'.

Isn't that what I just EFFIN said?


No, you should have said is would be about 5.5m shorter. :)

So, it wasn't the 'shorter' part; it was the 8v5 part! So sue me!!! So why were you making fun of my grammactication skilz?
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Daisy » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:02 am

Marlow wrote:So, it wasn't the 'shorter' part; it was the 8v5 part! So sue me!!! So why were you making fun of my grammactication skilz?

Oh, so now you're claiming it was a mathmatical error :wink:

I think we all assumed you meant to write:
"That's not nearly enough. HS and college can stay the same spacing, but most elites need another 2 feet (60cm) between hurdles, leaving the final run-in about 8 meters."

We assumed the addition of the word 'shorter' was a mistake.
Last edited by Daisy on Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:04 am

Daisy wrote:
Marlow wrote:So, it wasn't the 'shorter' part; it was the 8v5 part! So sue me!!! So why were you making fun of my grammactication skilz?

Oh, so now you're claiming to was a mathmatical error :wink:

Wasn't it (assuming your 'to' was an 'it') ?

I'm so confused! :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil:
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Daisy » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:07 am

Marlow wrote:I'm so confused! :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil:

I'm just trying to get you ready for the new students :)
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:12 am

Daisy wrote:
Marlow wrote:I'm so confused! :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil:

I'm just trying to get you ready for the new students :)

Too late. I'm already a week and a half in, and they've already got me completely bamboozled.
I'm just hanging on for track season to start in January, so at least I'm outdoors in my befuddlement and can't walk into walls as much.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby richxx87 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:44 pm

It would be an interesting experiment to take some freakishly athletic basketball guys in the 6'-9" to 7' range and see, first, if they could do it, then see if they could it run fast enough to be viable on an international level in the low 13s.

I'm thinking a guy like 6'-11" Dwight Howard, maybe 6'-9" Kevin Durant ... there must be several others out there.
Last edited by richxx87 on Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Daisy » Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:38 am

richxx87 wrote:I'm thinking a guy like 6'-11" Dwight Howard, maybe 6'-9" Kevin Durant ... there must be several others out there.
One problem is that you need to hurdle alternate lead leg. So you can't just take someone off the street. I'm guessing that it would take a while to get comfortable enough on the weak lead leg.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby rainy.here » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:00 pm

richxx87 wrote:It would be an interesting experiment to take some freakishly athletic basketball guys in the 6'-9" to 7' range and see, first, if they could do it, then see if they could it run fast enough to be viable on an international level in the low 13s.

I'm thinking a guy like 6'-11" Dwight Howard, maybe 6'-9" Kevin Durant ... there must be several others out there.


There's a video of Dwight Howard sprinting in that Gay vs. Shaq thing. It was very dark, but anyone got dartfish? A stride length estimate might be possible.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby user4 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:49 pm

gh wrote:If Florian Schwarthoff didn't try it (he may have in practice, but never heard of it), I can't imagine anybody getting away with it.


and he certainly must have because it was one of the most excruciatingly painful things to watch him hurdle. It was a tortured constrained shuffle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvnS-hv1oYg
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby gibson » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:38 am

while the 2 step would seem to be impossible to many....
don't you think these athletes could 2 step at least a couple of hurdles?..

bubka
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AazZrr3o ... re=related
carl lewis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5Sg_kACPRM
stephan holm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVZ3ZcorTF0
jonathan edwards 2 step 18.4 meters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFt9Yzp484c
powell and lewis or what sprinters really look like when they are NOT on steroids/PEDS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... _MmrA&NR=1

but not....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ4fA_nw ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&featu ... cQ6VQtGKZw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0NzGjgg ... re=related
Last edited by gibson on Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby mal » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:43 am

I'm sure John Clease and the others in his troupe could give it a good go.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby gibson » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:21 am

Hurdles First weighs in. http://www.hurdlesfirst.com/twostep.htm

To even think about two-stepping in an actual meet you have to be a little bit crazy. Maybe a lot of bit crazy. This is not just outside-the-box thinking. This is tear the damn box down thinking.

I was coaching a post-collegiate athlete a few years ago and we experimented with two-stepping a lot. He was able to do it some in practice, but it too much strain on his body. The idea would not be to two-step every hurdle because that would be physically impossible. The idea would be to two-step a maximum of four hurdles. In a sprint race, the drive phase lasts about 30-35 meters, so in a hurdle race you’d want to wait that long before trying to two-step.

I do believe, for now anyway, that the possibility of two-stepping is reserved for taller hurdlers. Probably you’re talking 6-4 or taller. It’s not just a matter of height; even more so, it’s a matter of speed
.

if bolt HAD to run the 110h don't you think that he'd be 2 stepping without taking any advice from anybody. 2 of bolts regular strides and a jump is how far? and with 19.19 200m speed endurance, would it be a big problem to keep going???

bolt in slow mo, freeze at the finish to get a feel and measure of stride length.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3gKkq6jjss

now hurdles first is not the foremost authority - the sub13 hurdlers are. what would they would think abolt :) the 2 step 110h??
Last edited by gibson on Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:25 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:38 am

To even think about two-stepping in an actual meet you have to be a little bit crazy. Maybe a lot of bit crazy.
I was coaching a post-collegiate athlete a few years ago and we experimented with two-stepping a lot. He was able to do it some in practice,

Ok, so some random guy was able to do it in practice, but we don't think an elite could do it with more practice?
Yes, it would take a tall, very-fast guy to do it in the middle of a race, but it's certainly worth the experimentation. I certainly think Bolt (if motivated) could.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby 18.99s » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:52 am

Two-stepping will take much more than a few weeks of experimentation in practice before it can be done successfully in a high-level meet. It's a multi-year project to get all the aspects right -- the speed (will have to be a sub-10 flat 100m sprinter), sufficient power in both legs so either can be an effective takeoff leg, and the timing and mental sharpness to switch between 3-stepping and 2-stepping at different points in the race.

Now who would be willing to put their hurdling career on what would like a 2- or 3-year moratorium in order to master 2-stepping? And to stick with it during the initial couple years when it makes them slower and more crash-prone? It's probably going to take a bold college coach to try something like this, as I can't see any professional sacrificing a piece of their career to make this happen, at least not before somebody else has shown that it's possible.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby KDFINE » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:03 am

Should the hurdles slightly closer together so that they could be two-stepped; or should the hurdles be further apart and the race longer so that taller runners wouldn't feel cramped by the current alignment? Could the right taller hurdler in a slightly longer race run faster than 12.80? Of course none of this could or should happen but I was just wondering.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:09 am

KDFINE wrote:Should the hurdles slightly closer together so that they could be two-stepped; or should the hurdles be further apart and the race longer so that taller runners wouldn't feel cramped by the current alignment? Could the right taller hurdler in a slightly longer race run faster than 12.80? Of course none of this could or should happen but I was just wondering.


Of course, you could have a rule where you could put the hurdles where ever you want. Taller guys could put them closer together and 2 step it. On the downside I think the crowd would get a little bored as the hurdlers spend an hour getting their hurdles just so.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:15 am

18.99s wrote:Two-stepping will take much more than a few weeks of experimentation in practice before it can be done successfully in a high-level meet. It's a multi-year project to get all the aspects right -- the speed (will have to be a sub-10 flat 100m sprinter), sufficient power in both legs so either can be an effective takeoff leg, and the timing and mental sharpness to switch between 3-stepping and 2-stepping at different points in the race.

It would take one off-season.
Yes, it would take an extraordinary athlete with naturally long strides and high speed, but the rest is easy. And yes it would take a lot of courage, but the reward would be enormous. When my kids can go from 4-stepping to 3-stepping, they drop a second. This often happens in the 3rd race of a season. They are 'ready' and they are surprised how easy it was - AFTER the fact.
You don't need 'sufficient power in both legs' (the left push-off stride length is virtually equal to the right already - elongating it over a hurdle is not an issue).
There are no timing or mental sharpness issues either. I teach my hurdlers to alternate from Day 1 and they are adept at it in the 100/110 (before they can 3-step) and in the 300/400, where it is absolutely essential. If teens can do it at their top speed, elites can do it at theirs.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby mal » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:17 am

Conor Dary wrote:
KDFINE wrote:Should the hurdles slightly closer together so that they could be two-stepped; or should the hurdles be further apart and the race longer so that taller runners wouldn't feel cramped by the current alignment? Could the right taller hurdler in a slightly longer race run faster than 12.80? Of course none of this could or should happen but I was just wondering.


Of course, you could have a rule where you could put the hurdles where ever you want. Taller guys could put them closer together and 2 step it. On the downside I think the crowd would get a little bored as the hurdlers spend an hour getting their hurdles just so.


I'd stack them all at one end and hurdle the lot in one jump, then run like heck to the finish.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:24 am

mal wrote:

I'd stack them all at one end and hurdle the lot in one jump, then run like heck to the finish.


Yes, that would be one way. But I think it would be prudent to have a rule where they don't touch each other.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby gibson » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:51 am

Conor Dary wrote:
mal wrote:

I'd stack them all at one end and hurdle the lot in one jump, then run like heck to the finish.


Yes, that would be one way. But I think it would be prudent to have a rule where they don't touch each other.


carl lewis would want to set them all at 101m 1 cm apart at the end and clear them all with a 9m long jump for 11 flat.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby 18.99s » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:01 am

Marlow wrote:It would take one off-season.

If it were so easy, somebody already would have done it.

That surely must take more than a single off-season. Maybe an off-year, like the even-numbered year between Olympics.

There are no timing or mental sharpness issues either. I teach my hurdlers to alternate from Day 1 and they are adept at it in the 100/110 (before they can 3-step) and in the 300/400, where it is absolutely essential. If teens can do it at their top speed, elites can do it at theirs.

But are they switching back and forth between 4-stepping and 3-stepping in the same race?
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:17 am

18.99s wrote:If it were so easy, somebody already would have done it.

It would NOT be easy, either physically or especially psychologically. It IS out of the box!
But are they switching back and forth between 4-stepping and 3-stepping in the same race?

It's not unusual for a kid to start with 3-steps but have to switch to 4 for the last few.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby gibson » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:30 am

in my book switching from 3 steps to 2 should take several years. maybe asking 400m hurdlers who switch from 14 to 13 steps is not a good idea as we're talking a completely different stride length and distance.

the ideal candidate would be a 15 year old that is an outstanding sprinter, a bolt clone.
i'd train him for several years before putting him in a race.
just do the training and run the open 100 / 200 until the 2 step is down pat.
then shock the world.

the biggest "hurdle" is to find an elite athlete that somehow thinks that running 110h is better than the "easier", much better paying and prestigious 100m race.
and our man is going to need one of those great pioneer coaches that come along only every so often.

an out of the box idea (not again!) would be to have nike sponsor our ideal candidate.
if successful, there'd be a lot of press and excitement for the sport.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:45 am

gibson wrote:an out of the box idea (not again!) would be to have nike sponsor our ideal candidate. if successful, there'd be a lot of press and excitement for the sport.

I hope it happens in my lifetime, 'but at my back I always hear Time's winged chariot hurrying near' . . . :?
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby gibson » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:31 am

more food for thought. data on 400m hurdlers.

http://www.hurdlesfirst.com/kevinyoung.htm
http://www.coachr.org/lha.htm
http://www.hurdlesfirst.com/stridepattern.htm
according to the articles...

12 step hurdling requires a stride of 2.84m.
kevin young ran 70 m with these strides before cutting down to 2.64m with the 13 step.
elite hurdlers clearance stride is reported to be 3.50m with poor hurdlers covering 4.5m.

can somebody tell me why it would be impossible for kevin young to run two strides-2.84m each and clear with 3.50 = 9.18m???
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby j-a-m » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:14 am

gibson wrote:in my book switching from 3 steps to 2 should take several years. maybe asking 400m hurdlers who switch from 14 to 13 steps is not a good idea as we're talking a completely different stride length and distance.

the ideal candidate would be a 15 year old that is an outstanding sprinter, a bolt clone.

Would a great TJer make sense as well?
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby ShaunP » Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:39 pm

Daley Thompson once told me about the most impressive athletic feat he ever witnessed was David Hemery, when the Coach at BU in TWR 1980's and well into his 40's, demonstrated exactly this to him, by two-stepping the first three hurdles.
David was discussing with Daley that someday he could see some tall, basketball type, two-step between the hurdles and smash the world record. Daley thought that this was impossible and so David took him into the field house and demonstrated this feat to him! Daley would not have believed it if he had not witnessed it for himself.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby gh » Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:59 pm

best candidate ever perhaps Florian Schwarthoff?
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby gibson » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:21 am

David Hemery-40 was discussing with Daley that someday he could see some tall, basketball type, two-step between the hurdles and smash the world record. Daley thought that this was impossible and so David took him into the field house and demonstrated this feat to him! Daley would not have believed it if he had not witnessed it for himself.


that one is out of left field.
still, you had to think someone tried it.

Florian_Schwarthoff a two step candidate?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhwReX4K9FU
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florian_Schwarthoff

from yesteryear it would have to be 29 foot long jump, sub 20 200m sprinter carl lewis.
from today it has to be bolt,
instead of the long jump, why take on this 110h ?
imagine what kind of a buzz a 11.? result would create????
could be the short route to unanimous GOAT?
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:42 am

gibson wrote:from yesteryear it would have to be 29 foot long jump, sub 20 200m sprinter carl lewis.

Carl, like his sister, was indeed a hurdler, early on. If Hemery in his 40s could do it, certainly CL could have!!
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby j-a-m » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:43 am

What about Christian Taylor?
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby 18.99s » Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:49 pm

With his height and improving speed, maybe Parchment could be the man to make the 2-step work. A "between" year like 2014 would be a nice time to experiment with it.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby gibson » Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:48 pm

young hurdlers should start experimenting with the 2 step right off the get go. not wait until they've got super-set patterns.

a carl lewis or a johnathan edwards would have no trouble 2 stepping part of the way.
problem is, of course, it would be crazy tricky to go from 2 step to 3 and not break your neck (leg).
then again, a good athlete can learn to do more complicated things than 2- step. i'd say pole vault is more of a technical challenge for example.

probably a long or triple jumper that can run 10.1 100m would be the best candidate in practice. as top sprinters would not want to take the risk.

now the seeds are sown. some hurdles coach/s out there will indeed get the boys 2 stepping.
and a protegee sooner or later will do it right.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:25 am

gibson wrote:young hurdlers should start experimenting with the 2 step right off the get go. not wait until they've got super-set patterns. A carl lewis or a johnathan edwards would have no trouble 2 stepping part of the way.

??!!
It's not like it's something you can just do with practice; you need to be able to sprint with Bolt's stride pattern, and he's the only one that can do that right now. Anyone else that tries it now would have to resort to bounding it, which is ungainly . . . but . . . if someone can successfully bound it, while alternating lead legs . . . the benefits would outweigh the detriments. The only way to significantly cut the WR is 2-stepping, so sooner or later, SOMEone will try.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby gibson » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:02 am

Marlow wrote:
gibson wrote:young hurdlers should start experimenting with the 2 step right off the get go. not wait until they've got super-set patterns. A carl lewis or a johnathan edwards would have no trouble 2 stepping part of the way.

??!!
It's not like it's something you can just do with practice; you need to be able to sprint with Bolt's stride pattern, and he's the only one that can do that right now. Anyone else that tries it now would have to resort to bounding it, which is ungainly . . . but . . . if someone can successfully bound it, while alternating lead legs . . . the benefits would outweigh the detriments. The only way to significantly cut the WR is 2-stepping, so sooner or later, SOMEone will try.


Marlow, yes, I'd say you're right.
Let me clarify. We are talking about starting with a 16 year old who's talented, say can run a 10.5 100m or less and long jump 24 feet plus, with a big upside potential. the two step at this point would be a fun thing to do in practice, figure out a way not to hurt yourself. in time the ugly bounding could convert into technique and lay to foundation.
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