Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles


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Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Daisy » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:15 pm

I noticed this posted on the TFN home page. Is David Oliver really Marlow in disguise? The following reads a lot like something he would write:

David Oliver wrote:Shocking to me, people have come up to me a lot and told me the hurdles record is one of the softest in the books. They cite that because Renaldo ran the record of 12.93 in '81, it has only progressed six hundredths of a second since that time. I do believe that if Renaldo would have continued to run, he probably would have run 12.85 already, he was that special when I watch his races. I do not believe that the record is soft by any means. I don't think people understand how hard it is to hurdle when you are running at 12.9 pace. The hurdles are way too close and there isn't that much room to maneuver. Not only that, but to run a record in the hurdles, you have to be perfect 12 times. Your start, ten barriers and the finish. That's way more than any other event. One false movement and you can go from 12.9 to 13.1 easily.

In track events, if I can find an explosive guy who will run 35 steps for 100 meters, he will demolish the record. No matter what your skill set is in the hurdles, you are still dealing with finite space and opportunity. Until someone comes in a revolutionizes the hurdles by taking one or two steps in between as opposed to three, then we can see some off the chart stuff, but until then, I do think the limits of the event are being pushed. Maybe if I coach a kid one day, I'll train him to two-step LOL.

Source
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby PCSExponent » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:22 pm

The operative word there is LOL. He is well aware of the viability (read, lack there of) of two-stepping.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby kuha » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:31 pm

"...taking ONE or two steps...."

Now that, I gotta see....
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby thedodge » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:01 pm

I posted before that this event is very under rated and believe the 110hh is near the limit like the high jump, long jump, and triple jump. I also stated unless someone comes up with new technique fosbury flop etc. that this event will not improve much. 110hh has a long tradition of top athletic talent it's hard to envision a better athlete than Oliver so what you see is what you get.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:02 pm

PCSExponent wrote:The operative word there is LOL. He is well aware of the viability (read, lack there of) of two-stepping.

Not at all. As Daisy remembers, I predicted this would happen sooner than later, and when it does the record will fall by .50 sec. The first couple of hurdles may need to be 3-stepped, but by the 3rd hurdle a really fast (long-striding) sprinter/hurdler could start 2-stepping and shave a lot of time off between hurdles 4 and 10. Now that I'm almost 60, when I run the 110H with 42" hurdles, I have to 4-step and alternating isn't that tough. If I can 4-step, the DOs and TTs of the world can 2-step.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby rainy.here » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:59 pm

I think you'd need someone like Usain Bolt (tall and very fast so their stride is very long as well) to have a chance of 2 stepping. With 9.14m (30 feet) between them, the stride length would have to be massive. Does anyone know the distance between take-off and touchdown for a typical elite hurdler?
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby berkeley » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:05 pm

Marlow wrote:
PCSExponent wrote:The operative word there is LOL. He is well aware of the viability (read, lack there of) of two-stepping.

Not at all. As Daisy remembers, I predicted this would happen sooner than later, and when it does the record will fall by .50 sec. The first couple of hurdles may need to be 3-stepped, but by the 3rd hurdle a really fast (long-striding) sprinter/hurdler could start 2-stepping and shave a lot of time off between hurdles 4 and 10. Now that I'm almost 60, when I run the 110H with 42" hurdles, I have to 4-step and alternating isn't that tough. If I can 4-step, the DOs and TTs of the world can 2-step.


Marlow, I'm surprised to see that coming from you. Look at it this way. The world's best intermediate hurdlers could not manage better than 13 strides between hurdles, until Kevin Young became the only one to manage 12 for the first few hurdles, and he had an exceptionally long stride, and no-one has done it successfully since, or approached his WR. That's 13 if you include the stride over the hurdle, making an average stride length of 35/13 = 2.69m per stride, or 8'10". To take 2 strides between hurdles in the highs, and athlete would have to average 9.14/3 = 3.05m per stride, or 10 feet. Possible ? I don't think so (without over-striding to a degree that would make it difficult to maintain speed, not to mention hurdle efficiently). Bolt takes 41 strides to cover 100m, so his average stride length is <2.50m. Taking into account shorter initial strides, it's probably about the same as Young's during the first 200m. Definitely nowhere near 3m.

Now, if they added a foot or 18 inches to the current distance between hurdles (taking 9 feet off the distance from the last hurdle to the line), I could see the record coming down significantly.

Of course, if you extrapolate to a time far in the future when a hurdler might emerge who is *much* taller than Bolt or (say) Florian Schwarthoff, and can still run fast and hurdle, then anything is possible. I do agree that alternating would be doable by anyone, with practise.

BTW, congratulations on being able to run 110H over 42" barriers at 60! I'm a 50 year old former hurdler, love competing in Master's track in other events, but I get injured every time I try to go back to hurdling :(
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby lonewolf » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:15 pm

I think an elite hurdler could master leading with alternating legs but, reduced to its simplest elements, you have to cover 3.04 m(10 ft) with every stride and hurdle clearance . Even if the hurdle stride is slightly longer than the two intermediate steps, that is still two hellaceous steps to maintain for ten hurdles.
Any body know Bolt's stride length?.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby guru » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:50 pm

lonewolf wrote:Any body know Bolt's stride length?.



2.95 at top end
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Smoke » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:51 pm

Never say never but Marlow you are dreaming to styate such an enormous feat in such a simplistic manner. The strength and endurance it would take to accomplish 2 steeping at speed is the obstacle. AND then you can add in the 10 foot stride. Essentially calling on said athlete to over stride, this becomes closer to impossible than possible.

P.S. KY 12 stepped from H3-H5. The actual pattern was 13 to 3, 12 to 5 and 13 home. I have heard of one youngster that can handle 12 stepping but he has yet to even contemplate it in a race. Hopefully in about 6 years we will see it for he is well capable
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby lonewolf » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:03 pm

guru wrote:
lonewolf wrote:Any body know Bolt's stride length?.



2.95 at top end

Awwright! Now all he has to do is 3.14 on each hurdle clearance. :)
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby rainy.here » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:27 pm

guru wrote:
lonewolf wrote:Any body know Bolt's stride length?.



2.95 at top end


Where did you get that number? My information tells me it was 2.71m average between 40m-80m during 9.58.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby PCSExponent » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:07 am

Marlow, if you could pass what you're smoking, thanks. I also want to marvel in the beauty of pigs flying by my window, dancing dwarves and jodling horses
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:05 am

If there's 30' between hurdles and you land 6 feet past the first one and take off 7 feet before the next one that's 17' to negotiate with two strides = 8.5' per stride - doable.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby PCSExponent » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:10 am

Marlow wrote:If there's 30' between hurdles and you land 6 feet past the first one and take off 7 feet before the next one that's 17' to negotiate with two strides = 8.5' per stride - doable.


Do you have any idea what angle of approach to the hurdle you're suggesting?A 13 feet step, nay, hop, over the hurdle? Are you some sort of a troll? I'm going over some videos, I'll be back with some numbers as to just what sort of change in technique you are suggesting.
Last edited by PCSExponent on Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby gh » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:19 am

If Florian Schwarthoff didn't try it (he may have in practice, but never heard of it), I can't imagine anybody getting away with it.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby PCSExponent » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:04 am

Marlow wrote:If there's 30' between hurdles and you land 6 feet past the first one and take off 7 feet before the next one that's 17' to negotiate with two strides = 8.5' per stride - doable.


Video evidence suggests an upper limit of 3.4m for the hurdle step for the top hurdlers. Good luck finding a homo-sapiens who'd make this more than 15% longer and still be able to sprint.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby lonewolf » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:10 am

Marlow wrote:If there's 30' between hurdles and you land 6 feet past the first one and take off 7 feet before the next one that's 17' to negotiate with two strides = 8.5' per stride - doable.

Doable? Maybe... but can the hurdler maintain that bounding cadence for ten hurdles? Color me skeptical.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby rainy.here » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:25 am

PCSExponent wrote:
Marlow wrote:If there's 30' between hurdles and you land 6 feet past the first one and take off 7 feet before the next one that's 17' to negotiate with two strides = 8.5' per stride - doable.


Video evidence suggests an upper limit of 3.4m for the hurdle step for the top hurdlers. Good luck finding a homo-sapiens who'd make this more than 15% longer and still be able to sprint.


So that means they need just under 2.9m stride length. Usain is almost that long at full flight, but since he'd be going distinctly sub-maxV, he'd really have to stretch it to have any chance.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby lonewolf » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:41 am

Think about it this way. The 110 meter Triple Bound.
Have you ever tried to bound two strides between each 5 yard line to the next for 100 yards?That is 7.5 feet/stride. The return gets harder.
Now up the ante to three strides between 10 yard lines ( 10 ft/stride). A little tougher?
Now add the provision that every third stride must clear HH height.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:15 am

PCSExponent wrote:Do you have any idea what angle of approach to the hurdle you're suggesting?A 13 feet step, nay, hop, over the hurdle? Are you some sort of a troll? I'm going over some videos, I'll be back with some numbers as to just what sort of change in technique you are suggesting.

Bad hurdlers do that all the time. If you do NOT snap down over the hurdle, that's a typical trajectory over the hurdles. I know, because I have done it!
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Daisy » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:21 am

The interesting point here is that it could probably be done. The main question is how much speed would be lost.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:26 am

Daisy wrote:The interesting point here is that it could probably be done. The main question is how much speed would be lost.

There would indeed be a learning curve (how NOT to 'bound' between hurdles), but once an elite sprinter type (like Trammell) figured out how to keep his speed up, it would be that very speed that would keep his strides long enough. When I first teach HSers to 3-step, they invariably 'bound', but when they learn how to SPRINT between hurdles, they find out how easy it is to 3-step.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby lonewolf » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:20 pm

3 step may be easy but aren't we talking 2 step?
Posters here cite stride length for Bolt in full flight at either 2.71(8-10) or 2.91 (9-8) . Ya gotta sustain 33 x average 3.05 (10-0) :?: I wanna see it.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby rainy.here » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:31 pm

lonewolf wrote:3 step may be easy but aren't we talking 2 step?
Posters here cite stride length for Bolt in full flight at either 2.71(8-10) or 2.91 (9-8) . Ya gotta sustain 33 x average 3.05 (10-0) :?: I wanna see it.


Yeah, I don't think it can be done either.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:42 pm

lonewolf wrote:Ya gotta sustain 33 x average 3.05 (10-0) :?: I wanna see it.

It does NOT have to be 10'. Can be less than 9' with proper (or in this case, slightly 'improper', i.e., long-arced) hurdle clearance.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby lonewolf » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:07 pm

Marlow wrote:
lonewolf wrote:Ya gotta sustain 33 x average 3.05 (10-0) :?: I wanna see it.

It does NOT have to be 10'. Can be less than 9' with proper (or in this case, slightly 'improper', i.e., long-arced) hurdle clearance.

Ok, but I said average. Every third stride has to be a humongous leap.
I dunno, since it would be off alternating legs maybe ....???
Nah, seeing is believing...
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Per Andersen » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:32 pm

lonewolf wrote:
Marlow wrote:
lonewolf wrote:Ya gotta sustain 33 x average 3.05 (10-0) :?: I wanna see it.

It does NOT have to be 10'. Can be less than 9' with proper (or in this case, slightly 'improper', i.e., long-arced) hurdle clearance.

Ok, but I said average. Every third stride has to be a humongous leap.
I dunno, since it would be off alternating legs maybe ....???
Nah, seeing is believing...

It's just too much!
In addition to the impossible stride lengths we have alternating after 2 steps between hurdles.
2 stepping means that every step is linked to either take-off or landing.

But sooner or later they should be adding about 20cm (8") between hurdles even if it means 1.80m (5-11) less to the finish.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:26 am

Per Andersen wrote:sooner or later they should be adding about 20cm (8") between hurdles even if it means 1.80m (5-11) less to the finish.

That's not nearly enough. HS and college can stay the same spacing, but most elites need another 2 feet (60cm) between hurdles, leaving the final run-in about 8 meters shorter.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby PCSExponent » Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:19 am

Marlow wrote:most elites need another 2 feet (60cm) between hurdles, leaving the final run-in about 8 meters shorter.


Math not your strongest side? :P
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Giant Panda » Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:48 am

There's more chance of a fast dwarf running underneath the hurdles to break the record.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:10 am

PCSExponent wrote:
Marlow wrote:most elites need another 2 feet (60cm) between hurdles, leaving the final run-in about 8 meters shorter.

Math not your strongest side? :P

I'm a TOE!

2'x9=18'
45'-18'=27'
27'x.3048=8.23m

whatamImissing? :oops: :oops: :oops:
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby lonewolf » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:25 am

This is fun. :)
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby PCSExponent » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:27 am

Marlow wrote:
PCSExponent wrote:
Marlow wrote:most elites need another 2 feet (60cm) between hurdles, leaving the final run-in about 8 meters shorter.

Math not your strongest side? :P

I'm a TOE!

2'x9=18'
45'-18'=27'
27'x.3048=8.23m

whatamImissing? :oops: :oops: :oops:


If you're a TOE, this is even worse :P
(hint- you said 8 meters shorter)
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Daisy » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:41 am

Hilarious. Marlow you just demonstrated you don't have a math problem but a narrative problem. :lol:
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:51 am

PCSExponent wrote:
Marlow wrote:
PCSExponent wrote:Math not your strongest side? :P

I'm a TOE!

2'x9=18'
45'-18'=27'
27'x.3048=8.23m

whatamImissing? :oops: :oops: :oops:


If you're a TOE, this is even worse :P
(hint- you said 8 meters shorter)

One of us is going to be VERY embarrassed here. If you push the spacing 2' further between hurdles, the run-in from the last hurdle to the finish line gets SHORTER!!!! Refute, please.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby PCSExponent » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:54 am

^Marlow, reread. The final run-in will definitely be shorter. As you correctly showed with you immaculate arithmetics :P it will be roughly 8 meters long, or 8 meters short, if you like. It will definitely not be 8 meters SHORTER than any obvious quantity, most definitely not 8 meters shorter than the current final run-in. It will in fact be shorter by 18 feet, or about 5.5 meters.
Last edited by PCSExponent on Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Daisy » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:55 am

Marlow wrote:
PCSExponent wrote:
Marlow wrote:2'x9=18'
45'-18'=27'
27'x.3048=8.23m

whatamImissing? :oops: :oops: :oops:


If you're a TOE, this is even worse :P
(hint- you said 8 meters shorter)

One of us is going to VERY embarrassed here. If you push the spacing 2' further between hurdles, the run-in from the last hurdle to the finish line gets SHORTER!!!! Refute, please.


The run in would need to be 18' shorter (about 5.5m shorter). It would have to be 27' (about 8m) compared to the current 45'.
Last edited by Daisy on Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Marlow » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:56 am

Daisy wrote:
Marlow wrote:
PCSExponent wrote:If you're a TOE, this is even worse :P
(hint- you said 8 meters shorter)

One of us is going to VERY embarrassed here. If you push the spacing 2' further between hurdles, the run-in from the last hurdle to the finish line gets SHORTER!!!! Refute, please.


The run in would need to be 18' shorter. It would have to be 27' compared to the current 45'.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - now I get it! :lol: :lol: :oops: :oops: :oops:
As I said - I are a Anglish teecher, not a mathomathikal teacher.
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Re: Oliver mulls 2 stepping between the hurdles

Postby Daisy » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:58 am

Marlow wrote:
Daisy wrote:The run in would need to be 18' shorter. It would have to be 27' compared to the current 45'.

Isn't that what I just EFFIN said?


No, you should have said is would be about 5.5m shorter. :)
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