Women to compete in decathlon?

[marknhj]

I'll stick my neck out....

I'm in the second group referred to in Frank's letter. I have no interest in seeing world class heptathlete's PV 8'6" or run 6:00 1500m's.

To be honest, beyond the very top of the elite levels, I struggle watching a whole decathlon for this same reason...

Sacrilege here, I know. But, to me, the decathlon is the most boring event in T&F (walks don't count)

[SQUACKEE]

I'll stick my neck out....

I'm in the second group referred to in Frank's letter. I have no interest in seeing world class heptathlete's PV 8'6" or run 6:00 1500m's.

To be honest, beyond the very top of the elite levels, I struggle watching a whole decathlon for this same reason...

Sacrilege here, I know. But, to me, the decathlon is the most boring event in T&F (walks don't count)

Mark, im the king of exaggeration but isnt an 8'6" PV unlikely for a world class Hep.? I would guess an average of something like 12ft.

[mojo]

Sacrilege here, I know. But, to me, the decathlon is the most boring event in T&F (walks don't count)

For once I am speechless!

[gh]

...
Mark, im the king of exaggeration but isnt an 8'6" PV unlikely for a world class Hep.? I would guess an average of something like 12ft.

First, note that the 8-6 figure was Frank's, not Mark's. But nobody is saying that's as high as they would go. The context was talkign about watching the competition, and you'd see people at that height.

By way of comparison, what do you think the opening height in the men's Dec was in Osaka last summer? 13-1.5 (4.00) in other words, they were vaulting like good HS girls, not world-class athletes.

Still, the 8-6 is perhaps a bit hyperbolic, just used to make a point.

[SQUACKEE]

By way of comparison, what do you think the opening height in the men's Dec was in Osaka last summer? 13-1.5 (4.00) in other words, they were vaulting like good HS girls, not world-class athletes.
.

Here are the results, can someone give me the feets for these marks? please.

Group A01 september 2007 - 13:00Position Bib Athlete Country Mark . Points
1 639 André Niklaus GER 5.30 (PB) 1004
2 1144 Paul Terek USA 5.20 (SB) 972
3 757 Hiromasa Tanaka JPN 5.10 (PB) 941
4 1085 Robert Jacob Arnold USA 5.10 . 941
5 362 François Gourmet BEL 5.00 . 910
5 508 Agustín Félix ESP 5.00 . 910
7 557 Romain Barras FRA 5.00 . 910
8 762 Dmitriy Karpov KAZ 5.00 (PB) 910
9 953 Aleksey Drozdov RUS 5.00 (PB) 910
10 471 Roman Šebrle CZE 4.80 (SB) 849
11 1056 Hamdi Dhouibi

[skyin' brian]

Here are the results, can someone give me the feets for these marks? please.

500cm ~ 16'5" add or subtract ~ 4 inches for every 10cm

For actual elite vault results, just remember 550 ~ 18' and you can go up from there

[SQUACKEE]

[quote="gh"]
By way of comparison, what do you think the opening height in the men's Dec was in Osaka last summer? 13-1.5 (4.00) in other words, they were vaulting like good HS girls, not world-class athletes.
quote]

The top 9 guys at Osaka jumped 16'5" or better. Thats not like any HS girls and its why i think its totally reasonable the top 9 women HEPs in the world will PV at least 12 feet and better. What do you guys think?

[gh]

Squack, you're missing the point completely.

Has nothing to do w/ how high they jump at the top end. It's talking about trying to sell to the fans in the stand that it's exciting to watch women jumping under 10-feet, just as it's a tough sell to convince people that the decathletes are superstars when they're vaulting at 13-feet early in the going. It's the product on the field, not the final results you see that we're talking about.

[SQUACKEE]

Squack, you're missing the point completely.

Has nothing to do w/ how high they jump at the top end. It's talking about trying to sell to the fans in the stand that it's exciting to watch women jumping under 10-feet, just as it's a tough sell to convince people that the decathletes are superstars when they're vaulting at 13-feet early in the going. It's the product on the field, not the final results you see that we're talking about.

"I have no interest in seeing world class heptathlete's PV 8'6" or run 6:00 1500m's."

"the men's Dec was in Osaka last summer? 13-1.5 (4.00) in other words, they were vaulting like good HS girls, not world-class athletes. "

I am commenting on these statements only which i think are false.

Fans not excited by a 9'6" vault by woman or a 13" vault by men goes without saying and wasnt something anyone could argue with.

[Marlow]

Adding in the PV and DT involves a LOT more time and skill to get good. Unless you have a 'natural' athlete (great coordination, body awareness) like a Mathis.

Isn't that the whole point?

[Mennisco]

Has nothing to do w/ how high they jump at the top end. It's talking about trying to sell to the fans in the stand that it's exciting to watch women jumping under 10-feet,.

Methinks you underestimate the rate of change of technology...when that is fully viewable in 3D, track will really bust out!

[Oldtimer]

Adding in the PV and DT involves a LOT more time and skill to get good. Unless you have a 'natural' athlete (great coordination, body awareness) like a Mathis.

Me thinks Bob Mathias had better coordination and body awareness than Johnny Mathis, even though his 6-5 1/2 was commendable .

[tandfman]

Me thinks Bob Mathias had better coordination and body awareness than Johnny Mathis, even though his 6-5 1/2 was commendable .

Chances are, you're right.

[cacique]

i like the idea of a women's decathlon.

but i also like the hep as it is now. one of the things that you see in the women's hept is many women whose marks are world class in their event (e.g. JJK and a few others in the LJ and hurdles, etc.) whereas that doesn't happen with the men.

[bambam]

i like the idea of a women's decathlon.

but i also like the hep as it is now. one of the things that you see in the women's hept is many women whose marks are world class in their event (e.g. JJK and a few others in the LJ and hurdles, etc.) whereas that doesn't happen with the men.

Actually, I think that's a negative. The purpose of an all-around event is to determine the best all-around athlete, not an athlete that excels in one event and the other events are close enough in skill level that they can move over to the heptathlon as well.

[gh]

agree w/ bam completely; as currently constituted, the hept is almost exclusively the province of long jumper/hurdler. The throwing component is horridly minimized.

[cacique]

so you two would prefer for example that barber jumped shorter distances and ran slower in the hept.?

[ralmcg]

I believe that women should compete in the decathalon, if only to see how they handle the pole vault among other events. I do believe, though, that it should start having it at the 2015 Track and Field World Championships and at the 2016 Olympics, if only to get the women prepared to do the extra events.

[mump boy]

there is no excuse for women not doing the Deca

of the standard would be low to begin with, who cares nobody would be watching the early rounds of the PV anyway so that reasoning is entirely spurious

[Marlow]

I guess the switch to the women's decathlon is going just as well as the American switch to the metric system. There's simply too much inertia to overcome and no one wants to take the point in this endeavor. It SHOULD have happened in the 90s when women's PV, Steeple, and HT got going good.

[gh]

I keep hearing there's very strong resistance from European coaches. The vault is the sticking point. (npi)

[Marlow]

I keep hearing there's very strong resistance from European coaches. The vault is the sticking point. (npi)

One obvious drawback is the sheer expense of poles at almost $600 a whack (shipping is expensive!). I just bought my 36th pole in 17 years! That - and a pit - at $12,000! And a coach . . . etc. Big Euro clubs should have no problem, but the smaller clubs, and individuals, would be hard put to add the new events.

[polevaultpower]

I think that the best solution is to have both the hep and the dec be championship events. They attract very different types of athletes, and there is strong resistance from the hep crowd to it. Have both for ~10 years then see how people feel about dropping the hep.

There's nothing inherently more or less interesting about women doing the dec vs the hep. If anything, the PV would make it more interesting, because it is an inherently interesting event to the general public. People are just resistance to change.

Probably one of the major fears that most won't say, is that the dec will generally attract women with a less visually appealing body type.

[polevaultpower]

I keep hearing there's very strong resistance from European coaches. The vault is the sticking point. (npi)

One obvious drawback is the sheer expense of poles at almost $600 a whack (shipping is expensive!). I just bought my 36th pole in 17 years! That - and a pit - at $12,000! And a coach . . . etc. Big Euro clubs should have no problem, but the smaller clubs, and individuals, would be hard put to add the new events.

Oh baloney. What heps are training at a facility with no PV pit? What heps are training somewhere where women don't pole vault at all?

I would imagine the numbers are pretty small for both.

[lonewolf]

Start competition in Womens Dec in 2011, include in Olympics in 2016, using women's implements and 100 hurdles, substituting 100 for 200 and 400 for 800, add 1500. Initial scores may not be very impressive but a new prototype of women multi-eventers will evolve with more emphasis on size and upper body strength necessitated by DT and PV.

[Marlow]

Oh baloney. What heps are training at a facility with no PV pit? What heps are training somewhere where women don't pole vault at all?
I would imagine the numbers are pretty small for both.

Y'know how many smaller HSs don't contest the PV at all because of expense? It's the same with Euro clubs. The bigger ones have PV, the smaller don't. Almost every German town of any appreciable size has a Sport Club with T&F as one of the sports offered. Not a lot of the smaller ones have PV facilities. But I bet many do have heptathletes, nicht wahr?

[polevaultpower]

But I bet many do have heptathletes, nicht wahr?

I doubt too many of them have world-class heptathletes.

As athletes get older they move from doing smaller multi-events to bigger ones. Triathlon to pentathlon to heptathlon to decathlon maybe a few in between. So I don't think smaller clubs not having the PV is a major issue. Who cares if they can't support one more event. They are already not offering a full slate. Most are probably youth focused, and I think it would be much longer until women were doing the dec at the junior level.

[Marlow]

But I bet many do have heptathletes, nicht wahr?

I doubt too many of them have world-class heptathletes.

And? If they have heptathletes, but no PV facility, how will they move on to the decathlon? The beauty of the Euro system is all the summer meets they can compete in - at all levels - not so much if you can't train for all the events in a Dec.

[bman]

Sometimes it is just ok to stay with tradition, I mean what are you losing? What you don't even have? Why don't we discuss moving the men down instead of vice versa? Because most people would agree that there is little (if at all) inherently more exciting from dec to hep. So why mess everything up?

[Marlow]

Because most people would agree that there is little (if at all) inherently more exciting from dec to hep. So why mess everything up?

Because three more events creates three more opportunities for drama (not that I want a 37-athlon!).

[polevaultpower]

But I bet many do have heptathletes, nicht wahr?

I doubt too many of them have world-class heptathletes.

And? If they have heptathletes, but no PV facility, how will they move on to the decathlon? The beauty of the Euro system is all the summer meets they can compete in - at all levels - not so much if you can't train for all the events in a Dec.

There are TONS of pole vault pits in Germany. It is very popular there, and the country is not _that_ big geographically. I would imagine that if there is a club that does not have pole vault, they are generally within 20 miles or less of a facility that does have it, and it's hard for me to imagine there are many meets in Europe in the summer at facilities with no pole vault.

The number of pole vault pits per square mile is probably much higher in europe as a whole than in the US as a whole.

[Marlow]

Because most people would agree that there is little (if at all) inherently more exciting from dec to hep. So why mess everything up?

Because three more events creates three more opportunities for drama (not that I want a enneakaidecathlon! (19events)).

[DrJay]

Transition over several years. Have an octathlon then nontathlon then decathlon. Add the discus and change the 800 to 1500 for two years. Move the 200 to 100 and add the 400 for the next two. Then add the vault.

[DentyCracker]

Just introduce it like everything else. The athletes will adjust. The sooner they do it the better as far as I see it.