Women to compete in decathlon?


Main message board: for the discussion of topical track & field items only.

Postby Stephen » Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:40 am

gh wrote: With the addition of another throw, and a jump that requires more upper body strength than previoiusly required, I would posit that the ideal somatotype is going to change a bit.

On a related note, many heptathletes struggle, I'm sure, to find enough time to train adequately for 7 events. Training for 10 makes a bigger demand. Yes, it's a demand that the men handle, but it's already part of your program.

If '12 is a decathlon, how much of your incredibly valuable '10 and '11 time do you set aside to practice events that you don't need? You'd have to compromise your chances for those other years in that regard too.

If all that makes sense, then this is just a tad more complicated than it seems on the surface.


I dont really agree. Take the example of Tia Hellebaut and Heike Drechsler, or to a lesser extent Jean Galfione. Athletes that trained for a specific event but were able to introduce enough other event training to enable them to produce good, or great, multievents. In Tia's case she may never have really stopped multi event training while specialising in the HJ, but if so, even more evidence that an athlete can have the necessary level in various events. Drechsler was able to jump 7.29 in 94 while introducing new events, and did enough training to set a world lead in the heptathlon. One years training and she still threw over 40m in the JT (take note Kelly). Galfione did an ok 7400+ Dec while still being able to medal at a world champs in the PV. So, I just think if the athlete is good enough they will be able to incorporate training in other events without too much trouble.

All athletes do a variety of training that alludes to all round ability...30m sprints, overhead throws, 5 step jump, jumping over hurdles etc etc. Obviously not the technical level needed to throw a discus or polevault, but enough to be 'athletic' and have a core base. And as you say, male decathletes have been doing it for years
Stephen
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:48 am

Postby gh » Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:09 am

Frank Zarnowski's take:

<<There appears to be little interest in the women's dec both
internationally and in US. Virtually every (exception being Austra) top
heptathletes responded that they would have no intention of continuing
as a multi eventer if the change occurred (7 to 10 events) I think many
who were proposing it we taken aback.

Good egs were Kluft and (a few years ago) a very adamant Barber who was particularly vocal. The impact of Kluft on heptathlon in Sweden has been overwhelmingly positive (interest, # of entrants at nationals, age group stuff) that they don't want to ruin a good thing.

2nd reason is that the directors of the major international
invitationals (MultiStars, Hypo-Bank and DecaStar) strongly resist b/c it
would make it more difficult for them to fit into their schedule and
they worry about how to sell women jumping 8-6 in vault and running 6:00+ in 1500 and then call them the best athletes. That's a hard sell.>>

(if Frank's name not familiar to you, he's generally regarded as one of the event's greatest statisticians ever and has written a great history of some of the event's leading figures) (note that he's just the messenger here, not a guy expressing an agenda of any kind)
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Postby Cooter Brown » Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:24 am

There needs to be a way to introduce the dec at the junior level while maintaining the hep at the senior level for a limited time.

-Maybe ban the hep at the junior level and only have the dec.
-Bar athletes who have not represented their country internationally in the hep from entering WC/OGs.
-Run both events for a few years and once the hep WC/OG entry pool drops below, say 10 with an A qualifier, then announce a final hep championship the next season and then it goes away.

Not perfect but I'm sure some smart guys could come up with something that works.
Cooter Brown
 
Posts: 2056
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Austin

multi discus

Postby bushop » Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:28 am

skyin' brian wrote:We all know that PV is the hardest event :wink: and that is why the women, coaches, etc are scared of it, but I bet discus would be pretty tough to learn as well.


Oh my ... I wish there was discus in the hept. Those women would rip the disc. Of the four throwing events our multis would be best suited for the discus. But many of our students are taller than average, lots of Friesians.
bushop
 
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: near the toys and tape measures

Postby decafan » Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:51 am

Frank is right of course. So is Gary. All politics are local, so lets just accept that modern stakeholders (past and present heptathletes, coaches, meet promoters) will resist the women's decathlon movement. Let's accept that some will resist strongly. But let us look for and thoroughly consider the honorable reasons and not the self-serving ones. Let us also consider this: Somewhere in the world there is a young girl going about her day in a normal way. She and most of the world are oblivious to this debate- this debate that will determine if she is to fulfill her destiny as the greatest women's decathlete of all-time. The next Babe Didrikson, Jackie Joyner-Kearsey or Yelena Isinbayeva. The one that will bring track and field fans such joy and exhilaration. The one that will have the pundits musing, "I guess they were right. Women can and should do the decathlon." This debate is for that girl and the vibrant and relevant future of our sport. History is already judging this.
decafan
 
Posts: 352
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Postby marknhj » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:11 am

I'll stick my neck out....

I'm in the second group referred to in Frank's letter. I have no interest in seeing world class heptathlete's PV 8'6" or run 6:00 1500m's.

To be honest, beyond the very top of the elite levels, I struggle watching a whole decathlon for this same reason...

Sacrilege here, I know. But, to me, the decathlon is the most boring event in T&F (walks don't count)
marknhj
 
Posts: 5070
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Postby SQUACKEE » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:21 am

marknhj wrote:I'll stick my neck out....

I'm in the second group referred to in Frank's letter. I have no interest in seeing world class heptathlete's PV 8'6" or run 6:00 1500m's.

To be honest, beyond the very top of the elite levels, I struggle watching a whole decathlon for this same reason...

Sacrilege here, I know. But, to me, the decathlon is the most boring event in T&F (walks don't count)


Mark, im the king of exaggeration but isnt an 8'6" PV unlikely for a world class Hep.? I would guess an average of something like 12ft.
SQUACKEE
 
Posts: 12885
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Heaven-In front of stereo listenin to re-mastered Beatles

Postby mojo » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:26 am

marknhj wrote:Sacrilege here, I know. But, to me, the decathlon is the most boring event in T&F (walks don't count)


:shock: :shock:

For once I am speechless!
mojo
 
Posts: 5519
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: at the finish line freezing my butt off

Postby gh » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:29 am

SQUACKEE wrote:...
Mark, im the king of exaggeration but isnt an 8'6" PV unlikely for a world class Hep.? I would guess an average of something like 12ft.


First, note that the 8-6 figure was Frank's, not Mark's. But nobody is saying that's as high as they would go. The context was talkign about watching the competition, and you'd see people at that height.

By way of comparison, what do you think the opening height in the men's Dec was in Osaka last summer? 13-1.5 (4.00) in other words, they were vaulting like good HS girls, not world-class athletes.

Still, the 8-6 is perhaps a bit hyperbolic, just used to make a point.
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Postby SQUACKEE » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:56 am

gh wrote:By way of comparison, what do you think the opening height in the men's Dec was in Osaka last summer? 13-1.5 (4.00) in other words, they were vaulting like good HS girls, not world-class athletes.
.


Here are the results, can someone give me the feets for these marks? please.

Group A01 september 2007 - 13:00Position Bib Athlete Country Mark . Points
1 639 André Niklaus GER 5.30 (PB) 1004
2 1144 Paul Terek USA 5.20 (SB) 972
3 757 Hiromasa Tanaka JPN 5.10 (PB) 941
4 1085 Robert Jacob Arnold USA 5.10 . 941
5 362 François Gourmet BEL 5.00 . 910
5 508 Agustín Félix ESP 5.00 . 910
7 557 Romain Barras FRA 5.00 . 910
8 762 Dmitriy Karpov KAZ 5.00 (PB) 910
9 953 Aleksey Drozdov RUS 5.00 (PB) 910
10 471 Roman Šebrle CZE 4.80 (SB) 849
11 1056 Hamdi Dhouibi
SQUACKEE
 
Posts: 12885
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Heaven-In front of stereo listenin to re-mastered Beatles

Postby skyin' brian » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:01 am

SQUACKEE wrote:Here are the results, can someone give me the feets for these marks? please.


500cm ~ 16'5" add or subtract ~ 4 inches for every 10cm

For actual elite vault results, just remember 550 ~ 18' and you can go up from there
skyin' brian
 
Posts: 1128
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Postby SQUACKEE » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:24 am

[quote="gh"]
By way of comparison, what do you think the opening height in the men's Dec was in Osaka last summer? 13-1.5 (4.00) in other words, they were vaulting like good HS girls, not world-class athletes.
quote]

The top 9 guys at Osaka jumped 16'5" or better. Thats not like any HS girls and its why i think its totally reasonable the top 9 women HEPs in the world will PV at least 12 feet and better. What do you guys think?
SQUACKEE
 
Posts: 12885
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Heaven-In front of stereo listenin to re-mastered Beatles

Postby gh » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:47 am

Squack, you're missing the point completely.

Has nothing to do w/ how high they jump at the top end. It's talking about trying to sell to the fans in the stand that it's exciting to watch women jumping under 10-feet, just as it's a tough sell to convince people that the decathletes are superstars when they're vaulting at 13-feet early in the going. It's the product on the field, not the final results you see that we're talking about.
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Postby SQUACKEE » Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:00 am

gh wrote:Squack, you're missing the point completely.

Has nothing to do w/ how high they jump at the top end. It's talking about trying to sell to the fans in the stand that it's exciting to watch women jumping under 10-feet, just as it's a tough sell to convince people that the decathletes are superstars when they're vaulting at 13-feet early in the going. It's the product on the field, not the final results you see that we're talking about.


"I have no interest in seeing world class heptathlete's PV 8'6" or run 6:00 1500m's."

"the men's Dec was in Osaka last summer? 13-1.5 (4.00) in other words, they were vaulting like good HS girls, not world-class athletes. "

I am commenting on these statements only which i think are false.

Fans not excited by a 9'6" vault by woman or a 13" vault by men goes without saying and wasnt something anyone could argue with.
SQUACKEE
 
Posts: 12885
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Heaven-In front of stereo listenin to re-mastered Beatles

Postby Marlow » Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:56 am

Pentathlete wrote:Adding in the PV and DT involves a LOT more time and skill to get good. Unless you have a 'natural' athlete (great coordination, body awareness) like a Mathis.

Isn't that the whole point?
Marlow
 
Posts: 21126
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Postby Mennisco » Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:06 am

gh wrote:
Has nothing to do w/ how high they jump at the top end. It's talking about trying to sell to the fans in the stand that it's exciting to watch women jumping under 10-feet,.


Methinks you underestimate the rate of change of technology...when that is fully viewable in 3D, track will really bust out!
Mennisco
 
Posts: 4110
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:43 pm
Location: Canada

Postby Oldtimer » Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:40 am

Pentathlete wrote:Adding in the PV and DT involves a LOT more time and skill to get good. Unless you have a 'natural' athlete (great coordination, body awareness) like a Mathis.


Me thinks Bob Mathias had better coordination and body awareness than Johnny Mathis, even though his 6-5 1/2 was commendable .
Oldtimer
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Postby tandfman » Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:46 am

Oldtimer wrote:Me thinks Bob Mathias had better coordination and body awareness than Johnny Mathis, even though his 6-5 1/2 was commendable .

Chances are, you're right. :)
tandfman
 
Posts: 15043
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Postby cacique » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:05 am

i like the idea of a women's decathlon.

but i also like the hep as it is now. one of the things that you see in the women's hept is many women whose marks are world class in their event (e.g. JJK and a few others in the LJ and hurdles, etc.) whereas that doesn't happen with the men.
cacique
 
Posts: 1315
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:49 am
Location: Via Lactea

Postby bambam » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:11 am

cacique wrote:i like the idea of a women's decathlon.

but i also like the hep as it is now. one of the things that you see in the women's hept is many women whose marks are world class in their event (e.g. JJK and a few others in the LJ and hurdles, etc.) whereas that doesn't happen with the men.


Actually, I think that's a negative. The purpose of an all-around event is to determine the best all-around athlete, not an athlete that excels in one event and the other events are close enough in skill level that they can move over to the heptathlon as well.
bambam
 
Posts: 3848
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Durham, NC

Postby gh » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:51 am

agree w/ bam completely; as currently constituted, the hept is almost exclusively the province of long jumper/hurdler. The throwing component is horridly minimized.
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Postby cacique » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:20 pm

so you two would prefer for example that barber jumped shorter distances and ran slower in the hept.?
cacique
 
Posts: 1315
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:49 am
Location: Via Lactea

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:44 pm

I believe that women should compete in the decathalon, if only to see how they handle the pole vault among other events. I do believe, though, that it should start having it at the 2015 Track and Field World Championships and at the 2016 Olympics, if only to get the women prepared to do the extra events.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby mump boy » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:08 pm

there is no excuse for women not doing the Deca

of the standard would be low to begin with, who cares nobody would be watching the early rounds of the PV anyway so that reasoning is entirely spurious
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Marlow » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:20 pm

I guess the switch to the women's decathlon is going just as well as the American switch to the metric system. There's simply too much inertia to overcome and no one wants to take the point in this endeavor. It SHOULD have happened in the 90s when women's PV, Steeple, and HT got going good.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21126
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby gh » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:38 pm

I keep hearing there's very strong resistance from European coaches. The vault is the sticking point. (npi)
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Marlow » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:48 pm

gh wrote:I keep hearing there's very strong resistance from European coaches. The vault is the sticking point. (npi)

One obvious drawback is the sheer expense of poles at almost $600 a whack (shipping is expensive!). I just bought my 36th pole in 17 years! That - and a pit - at $12,000! And a coach . . . etc. Big Euro clubs should have no problem, but the smaller clubs, and individuals, would be hard put to add the new events.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21126
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby polevaultpower » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:49 pm

I think that the best solution is to have both the hep and the dec be championship events. They attract very different types of athletes, and there is strong resistance from the hep crowd to it. Have both for ~10 years then see how people feel about dropping the hep.

There's nothing inherently more or less interesting about women doing the dec vs the hep. If anything, the PV would make it more interesting, because it is an inherently interesting event to the general public. People are just resistance to change.

Probably one of the major fears that most won't say, is that the dec will generally attract women with a less visually appealing body type.
Last edited by polevaultpower on Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
polevaultpower
 
Posts: 4534
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: A Temperate Island

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby polevaultpower » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:50 pm

Marlow wrote:
gh wrote:I keep hearing there's very strong resistance from European coaches. The vault is the sticking point. (npi)

One obvious drawback is the sheer expense of poles at almost $600 a whack (shipping is expensive!). I just bought my 36th pole in 17 years! That - and a pit - at $12,000! And a coach . . . etc. Big Euro clubs should have no problem, but the smaller clubs, and individuals, would be hard put to add the new events.


Oh baloney. What heps are training at a facility with no PV pit? What heps are training somewhere where women don't pole vault at all?

I would imagine the numbers are pretty small for both.
polevaultpower
 
Posts: 4534
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: A Temperate Island

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby lonewolf » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:52 pm

Start competition in Womens Dec in 2011, include in Olympics in 2016, using women's implements and 100 hurdles, substituting 100 for 200 and 400 for 800, add 1500. Initial scores may not be very impressive but a new prototype of women multi-eventers will evolve with more emphasis on size and upper body strength necessitated by DT and PV.
lonewolf
 
Posts: 8816
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Indian Territory

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Marlow » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:03 pm

polevaultpower wrote:Oh baloney. What heps are training at a facility with no PV pit? What heps are training somewhere where women don't pole vault at all?
I would imagine the numbers are pretty small for both.

Y'know how many smaller HSs don't contest the PV at all because of expense? It's the same with Euro clubs. The bigger ones have PV, the smaller don't. Almost every German town of any appreciable size has a Sport Club with T&F as one of the sports offered. Not a lot of the smaller ones have PV facilities. But I bet many do have heptathletes, nicht wahr?
Marlow
 
Posts: 21126
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby polevaultpower » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:18 pm

Marlow wrote: But I bet many do have heptathletes, nicht wahr?


I doubt too many of them have world-class heptathletes.

As athletes get older they move from doing smaller multi-events to bigger ones. Triathlon to pentathlon to heptathlon to decathlon maybe a few in between. So I don't think smaller clubs not having the PV is a major issue. Who cares if they can't support one more event. They are already not offering a full slate. Most are probably youth focused, and I think it would be much longer until women were doing the dec at the junior level.
polevaultpower
 
Posts: 4534
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: A Temperate Island

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Marlow » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:21 pm

polevaultpower wrote:
Marlow wrote: But I bet many do have heptathletes, nicht wahr?

I doubt too many of them have world-class heptathletes.

And? If they have heptathletes, but no PV facility, how will they move on to the decathlon? The beauty of the Euro system is all the summer meets they can compete in - at all levels - not so much if you can't train for all the events in a Dec.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21126
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby bman » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:42 pm

Sometimes it is just ok to stay with tradition, I mean what are you losing? What you don't even have? Why don't we discuss moving the men down instead of vice versa? Because most people would agree that there is little (if at all) inherently more exciting from dec to hep. So why mess everything up?
bman
 
Posts: 776
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:27 pm
Location: Columbus

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Marlow » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:08 pm

bman wrote:Because most people would agree that there is little (if at all) inherently more exciting from dec to hep. So why mess everything up?

Because three more events creates three more opportunities for drama (not that I want a 37-athlon!).
Marlow
 
Posts: 21126
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby polevaultpower » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:10 pm

Marlow wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:
Marlow wrote: But I bet many do have heptathletes, nicht wahr?

I doubt too many of them have world-class heptathletes.

And? If they have heptathletes, but no PV facility, how will they move on to the decathlon? The beauty of the Euro system is all the summer meets they can compete in - at all levels - not so much if you can't train for all the events in a Dec.



There are TONS of pole vault pits in Germany. It is very popular there, and the country is not _that_ big geographically. I would imagine that if there is a club that does not have pole vault, they are generally within 20 miles or less of a facility that does have it, and it's hard for me to imagine there are many meets in Europe in the summer at facilities with no pole vault.

The number of pole vault pits per square mile is probably much higher in europe as a whole than in the US as a whole.
polevaultpower
 
Posts: 4534
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: A Temperate Island

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Marlow » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:15 pm

bman wrote:Because most people would agree that there is little (if at all) inherently more exciting from dec to hep. So why mess everything up?

Because three more events creates three more opportunities for drama (not that I want a enneakaidecathlon! (19events)).
Marlow
 
Posts: 21126
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby DrJay » Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:01 pm

Transition over several years. Have an octathlon then nontathlon then decathlon. Add the discus and change the 800 to 1500 for two years. Move the 200 to 100 and add the 400 for the next two. Then add the vault.
DrJay
 
Posts: 5485
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Woodland Park, CO

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby DentyCracker » Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:27 pm

Just introduce it like everything else. The athletes will adjust. The sooner they do it the better as far as I see it.
DentyCracker
 
Posts: 1648
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Jamaica

Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 26mi235, booond and 7 guests