Women to compete in decathlon?


Main message board: for the discussion of topical track & field items only.

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby user4 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:55 am

26mi235 wrote:Specialist in the throws get six attempts in major competitions while those that do not get to practice much should have one or two, and where they have to do this in three events, any of which if getting a foul puts them out of the competition. This is without a doubt, the suggestions for the multis that is the worst I have ever heard. All of the throws would be safety throws with distances that are about 20% shorter than you now get. Many competitions would lose several of the top athletes, making a mockery of the competition -- the winner this time was the seventh-ranked athlete (and improvement on last time when the champion was the twelfth best)... It would also invalidate all prior records.


Ill compromise with you and settle for two throws, that is it. Take your warm up time seriously.
user4
 
Posts: 1438
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:05 pm

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby lonewolf » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:32 am

I would be more concerned about a one or two jump limit in the Dec LJ than in the throws.
You would see nothing but tentative safe jumps.
lonewolf
 
Posts: 8816
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Indian Territory

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby user4 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:15 am

ralmcg wrote:
user4 wrote:Please allow me to repeat myself, I would not mind seeing a 10 event womens multi-event but please do not force me to endure the same events as the men. Give me at least a 5000m race and of course toss in the PV. Races: 200m/800m/5000m; jumps: HJ/LJ/TJ/PV (yes all the jumps, jumping is has an aesthetically feminine appeal); hurdles 100mH/400mH (hurdling is both graceful and technically demanding), Throws: only the javelin please; This is just a suggestion, there is much room for compromise and give and take. Im all ears...

Another suggestion for both the mens and womens multi-event. They must get ride of the 3 try rule.... If there is one thing that the multi-event competition should test it is the athlete's raw intuitive preparation and mental discipline. Getting 3 tries goes against everything the multis should be, IMHO. Make it one single try or maybe two and that is it ...Two fouls and you are gone. Also make the event a sun-up to sun-down competition. Dispense with this two day competition thing.

The decathlon you are suggesting is one looking for the best "feminine" athlete which it should not be. Women's decathlon should look for the best all-around female athlete and if that means some of the events they have to do are "masculine" so be it.


OK, Ill include the shot throw.. make it 5 lbs and let it be tossed any way the athlete chooses.
user4
 
Posts: 1438
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:05 pm

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:22 pm

user4 wrote:
OK, Ill include the shot throw.. make it 5 lbs and let it be tossed any way the athlete chooses.

Oh the women are so dainty that 5 lbs. is the heaviest they can throw. (Sarcasm ended) By the way women's shot weighs 4 kilograms (about 8.8 lbs.) so they are throwing heavier shots than you would allow.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby eldanielfire » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:02 pm

ralmcg wrote:
user4 wrote:Please allow me to repeat myself, I would not mind seeing a 10 event womens multi-event but please do not force me to endure the same events as the men. Give me at least a 5000m race and of course toss in the PV. Races: 200m/800m/5000m; jumps: HJ/LJ/TJ/PV (yes all the jumps, jumping is has an aesthetically feminine appeal); hurdles 100mH/400mH (hurdling is both graceful and technically demanding), Throws: only the javelin please; This is just a suggestion, there is much room for compromise and give and take. Im all ears...

Another suggestion for both the mens and womens multi-event. They must get ride of the 3 try rule.... If there is one thing that the multi-event competition should test it is the athlete's raw intuitive preparation and mental discipline. Getting 3 tries goes against everything the multis should be, IMHO. Make it one single try or maybe two and that is it ...Two fouls and you are gone. Also make the event a sun-up to sun-down competition. Dispense with this two day competition thing.

The decathlon you are suggesting is one looking for the best "feminine" athlete which it should not be. Women's decathlon should look for the best all-around female athlete and if that means some of the events they have to do are "masculine" so be it.


Reality check, if a sport makes women seem masculine it will be mocked and unpopular. or the athletes will and women will choose not to do it lowering the quality and competitiveness.

The women's Heptathlon seems to have had more focus and attention than the men's Decathlon over the years with the women mostly becoming more famous athletes and ore watched than their 10 event counter parts. Sometimes less is more and people may well find the decathlon less enjoyable than the Heptathlon. I personally would love a Pent (done over 1 day), Hep and Dec multi-events all having world and Olympic medals encouraging more multi-eventers and multi-eventers of differing strengths. However this won't happy because the IOC won't allow more Olympic medals for athletics.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:31 pm

eldanielfire wrote:
Reality check, if a sport makes women seem masculine it will be mocked and unpopular. or the athletes will and women will choose not to do it lowering the quality and competitiveness.

You may be right but who would mock the women who would seem "masculine"? Male chauvinists and women who cling to traditional sex roles? They shouldn't dictate what should be acceptable to women athletes. Besides the women doing these sports are not doing it to attract mates, who would be mostly men.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:43 pm

eldanielfire wrote:Reality check, if a sport makes women seem masculine it will be mocked and unpopular. or the athletes will and women will choose not to do it lowering the quality and competitiveness.


Yea, Jess was reviled almost everywhere she went last year, and Valerie is an embarrassment even in her home town.
26mi235
 
Posts: 16335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:46 pm

26mi235 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:Reality check, if a sport makes women seem masculine it will be mocked and unpopular. or the athletes will and women will choose not to do it lowering the quality and competitiveness.


Yea, Jess was reviled almost everywhere she went last year, and Valerie is an embarrassment even in her home town.

That's a good sarcastic remark, 26mi235. Although some may not like them being in "masculine" events the general feeling for them was, and still is, positive.

To eldanielfire, what events in track and field would make women seem "masculine"?
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:45 am

To those who wonder why I put "masculine" and "feminine" in quotes, it is because they are social constructs since different people have different viewpoints on what is "masculine" and what is "feminine"

One other thing. Not playing a sport because it would not be attractive to potential mates is a poor reason not to engage in a sport a person likes
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:44 pm

ralmcg wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:Reality check, if a sport makes women seem masculine it will be mocked and unpopular. or the athletes will and women will choose not to do it lowering the quality and competitiveness.


Yea, Jess was reviled almost everywhere she went last year, and Valerie is an embarrassment even in her home town.

That's a good sarcastic remark, 26mi235. Although some may not like them being in "masculine" events the general feeling for them was, and still is, positive.

To eldanielfire, what events in track and field would make women seem "masculine"?


Just to be clear, I was countering the prior comment and highlighted to great Gold Medal winners from London. Does it matter if they seem too masculine for you (eldanielfire)? Why should the whole sport cling to the sort of thinking that kept women out of sports completely when I was in high school and diminished their opportunities for a long time in track and field?
26mi235
 
Posts: 16335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby aaronk » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:25 pm

Want women to avoid "masculinity" in a potential Women's Dec??
I got just the solution.
Here's a VERY feminine 10 events:

1. 1500 baby stroller walk.
2. High Jump.....into a bubble bath.
3. Posing for an ELLE ad....with a discus in your hand.
4. Sipping chamomile tea....instead of Gatorade.
5. Burning your bra.......No, wait!!.....LADIES don't BURN their bra's, they WEAR them!!
6. 100 Hurdles.....but being allowed to crawl THROUGH them....not go OVER them!!
7. Pole Vault. (You've GOT to be kidding!!!)
8. 200 meter JOG.
9. Marrying an ESPN T&F analyst.....not wanting to BE one!!
10. WATCHING the MEN'S Decathlon in the Rio OG.

NOTE: The above is 100% facetious and satirical!! I FULLY SUPPORT a REAL Women's Decathlon!!
aaronk
 
Posts: 3362
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 9:39 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:48 pm

aaronk wrote:Want women to avoid "masculinity" in a potential Women's Dec??
I got just the solution.
Here's a VERY feminine 10 events:

1. 1500 baby stroller walk.
2. High Jump.....into a bubble bath.
3. Posing for an ELLE ad....with a discus in your hand.
4. Sipping chamomile tea....instead of Gatorade.
5. Burning your bra.......No, wait!!.....LADIES don't BURN their bra's, they WEAR them!!
6. 100 Hurdles.....but being allowed to crawl THROUGH them....not go OVER them!!
7. Pole Vault. (You've GOT to be kidding!!!)
8. 200 meter JOG.
9. Marrying an ESPN T&F analyst.....not wanting to BE one!!
10. WATCHING the MEN'S Decathlon in the Rio OG.

NOTE: The above is 100% facetious and satirical!! I FULLY SUPPORT a REAL Women's Decathlon!!

That post made me laugh. It was a small laugh, not a hearty laugh.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby eldanielfire » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:22 am

ralmcg wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Reality check, if a sport makes women seem masculine it will be mocked and unpopular. or the athletes will and women will choose not to do it lowering the quality and competitiveness.

You may be right but who would mock the women who would seem "masculine"? Male chauvinists and women who cling to traditional sex roles? They shouldn't dictate what should be acceptable to women athletes. Besides the women doing these sports are not doing it to attract mates, who would be mostly men.


They aren't doing it to attract males, but they do have life's outside the sport, self image etc. Do you honestly think teenage girls will enter or continue with sports if they think it makes them more manly?


26mi235 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:Reality check, if a sport makes women seem masculine it will be mocked and unpopular. or the athletes will and women will choose not to do it lowering the quality and competitiveness.


Yea, Jess was reviled almost everywhere she went last year, and Valerie is an embarrassment even in her home town.


Ennis doesn't look masculine at all and is a great influence in having a great idealised role model for an athletic feminine body. I hate models and love athletic women myself , but I'm not the issue, I'm simply pointing out the reality of the world, not forcing my own blinkered idealised vision of how things should be even though they are nothing like that. Even Jess Ennis admitted she refused to train at times earlier in her life when she thought her muscles were getting to big. It's already an issue and being dense and utterly refusing to accept the thought that young women do have about their bodies won't make it magically go away.

Just because image should be irrelevant that doesn't mean it isn't. People aren't simply sports machines who dedicate themselves to sport and the rest of their lives don't exist. All parts of your life impact on the rest, sometime significantly.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:07 am

eldanielfire, I will agree that women athletes are more than just athletes. They are complete human beings with other interests. I would still tell the women athletes to participate in "masculine" sports. The worry of being too muscular and not getting dates shouldn't deter them from doing what they enjoy. Besides not every man thinks that women with some muscles are gross and not worthy to go on a date with.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby eldanielfire » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:22 am

ralmcg wrote:eldanielfire, I will agree that women athletes are more than just athletes. They are complete human beings with other interests. I would still tell the women athletes to participate in "masculine" sports. The worry of being too muscular and not getting dates shouldn't deter them from doing what they enjoy. Besides not every man thinks that women with some muscles are gross and not worthy to go on a date with.


That is the problem. You think how you see things. Women's self image isn't about who they can date or what their boyfriend will think of them, that sort of ignorant opinion is why there are so many ignorant and inaccurate opinions stated on what women should do about their bodies on this thread. Image is far more important to women, by individualised need or external projection, than it is for men. The fact you equate it to what men think of them means you should really read-up on a very complex and powerful issue that takes root in historical perception, societal expectations, expectations from their own sex, hormones and the dramatic physical changes that occur in women through puberty, considerably more dramatic than their male counter parts.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:35 am

eldanielfire wrote:
ralmcg wrote:eldanielfire, I will agree that women athletes are more than just athletes. They are complete human beings with other interests. I would still tell the women athletes to participate in "masculine" sports. The worry of being too muscular and not getting dates shouldn't deter them from doing what they enjoy. Besides not every man thinks that women with some muscles are gross and not worthy to go on a date with.


That is the problem. You think how you see things. Women's self image isn't about who they can date or what their boyfriend will think of them, that sort of ignorant opinion is why there are so many ignorant and inaccurate opinions stated on what women should do about their bodies on this thread. Image is far more important to women, by individualised need or external projection, than it is for men. The fact you equate it to what men think of them means you should really read-up on a very complex and powerful issue that takes root in historical perception, societal expectations, expectations from their own sex, hormones and the dramatic physical changes that occur in women through puberty, considerably more dramatic than their male counter parts.

Could you direct me to a website that explains about women's self-image, especially when it comes to participating in sports?
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby eldanielfire » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:49 am

ralmcg wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
ralmcg wrote:eldanielfire, I will agree that women athletes are more than just athletes. They are complete human beings with other interests. I would still tell the women athletes to participate in "masculine" sports. The worry of being too muscular and not getting dates shouldn't deter them from doing what they enjoy. Besides not every man thinks that women with some muscles are gross and not worthy to go on a date with.


That is the problem. You think how you see things. Women's self image isn't about who they can date or what their boyfriend will think of them, that sort of ignorant opinion is why there are so many ignorant and inaccurate opinions stated on what women should do about their bodies on this thread. Image is far more important to women, by individualised need or external projection, than it is for men. The fact you equate it to what men think of them means you should really read-up on a very complex and powerful issue that takes root in historical perception, societal expectations, expectations from their own sex, hormones and the dramatic physical changes that occur in women through puberty, considerably more dramatic than their male counter parts.

Could you direct me to a website that explains about women's self-image, especially when it comes to participating in sports?


It is well documented and there are a great many studies or articles you can google.

Here's a full quick points from the women's sport foundation.

http://www.womenssportsfoundation.org/s ... ports.aspx

A peer reviewed more indepth study:

http://her.oxfordjournals.org/content/23/4/633.full

Also you'll find on this site, some posters have stated similar experience of coaching girls in college and schools.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby aaronk » Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:01 am

Putting aside the Decathlon...or even the Heptathlon and indoor Pentathlon....for now, I would think that, if women were so fearful or hesitant to look "masculine".....we wouldn't be seeing women doing ANY of the weight events......the DT, HT, JT, SP, or indoor WT.

Even sprinters and 100H women tend to be "bulkier" than other track and field athletes.

Thus, in a world where NO girl or woman chose to look "masculine" in any way......all we'd be left with are....

distance runners!!

Being a distance running aficianado, I could live with that!!! :P
aaronk
 
Posts: 3362
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 9:39 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby eldanielfire » Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:07 am

aaronk wrote:Putting aside the Decathlon...or even the Heptathlon and indoor Pentathlon....for now, I would think that, if women were so fearful or hesitant to look "masculine".....we wouldn't be seeing women doing ANY of the weight events......the DT, HT, JT, SP, or indoor WT.

Even sprinters and 100H women tend to be "bulkier" than other track and field athletes.

Thus, in a world where NO girl or woman chose to look "masculine" in any way......all we'd be left with are....

distance runners!!

Being a distance running aficianado, I could live with that!!! :P


I'm not saying no women would complete, but there would be many more who wouldn't, essentially setting up a sex barrier for sport.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:34 am

eldanielfire, I looked at the websites you suggested. Sure some females, like some males, will not be interested in sports. However, a good deal of discouragement for females to do sports, especially "masculine" sports, comes from society. If society puts more resources into female sports and change its attitude towards female athletes then more females would participate in sports that may make them more muscular, which nothing is wrong with that.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby eldanielfire » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:23 am

ralmcg wrote:eldanielfire, I looked at the websites you suggested. Sure some females, like some males, will not be interested in sports. However, a good deal of discouragement for females to do sports, especially "masculine" sports, comes from society. If society puts more resources into female sports and change its attitude towards female athletes then more females would participate in sports that may make them more muscular, which nothing is wrong with that.


I agree, hence my praise of Ennis. But women shouldn't be told that their image doesn't matter. It's easy for men, an sports body is an idealised image across the board. However big muscly arms is not for women. By that I mean weight lifter size IMO, however many women have levels well below that as their limits.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:02 am

eldanielfire wrote:
ralmcg wrote:eldanielfire, I looked at the websites you suggested. Sure some females, like some males, will not be interested in sports. However, a good deal of discouragement for females to do sports, especially "masculine" sports, comes from society. If society puts more resources into female sports and change its attitude towards female athletes then more females would participate in sports that may make them more muscular, which nothing is wrong with that.


I agree, hence my praise of Ennis. But women shouldn't be told that their image doesn't matter. It's easy for men, an sports body is an idealised image across the board. However big muscly arms is not for women. By that I mean weight lifter size IMO, however many women have levels well below that as their limits.

Which brings me to question why their body image should matter, especially in sports. They can have big muscular arms if they want. I don't believe that they should take steroids to get them however.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby aaronk » Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:11 am

ralmcg wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
ralmcg wrote:eldanielfire, I looked at the websites you suggested. Sure some females, like some males, will not be interested in sports. However, a good deal of discouragement for females to do sports, especially "masculine" sports, comes from society. If society puts more resources into female sports and change its attitude towards female athletes then more females would participate in sports that may make them more muscular, which nothing is wrong with that.


I agree, hence my praise of Ennis. But women shouldn't be told that their image doesn't matter. It's easy for men, an sports body is an idealised image across the board. However big muscly arms is not for women. By that I mean weight lifter size IMO, however many women have levels well below that as their limits.

Which brings me to question why their body image should matter, especially in sports. They can have big muscular arms if they want. I don't believe that they should take steroids to get them however.


They take steroids.....and they won't have to even CONSIDER doing any more "masculine" events!!

Or feminine, for that matter!! :P
aaronk
 
Posts: 3362
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 9:39 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby eldanielfire » Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:57 am

ralmcg wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
ralmcg wrote:eldanielfire, I looked at the websites you suggested. Sure some females, like some males, will not be interested in sports. However, a good deal of discouragement for females to do sports, especially "masculine" sports, comes from society. If society puts more resources into female sports and change its attitude towards female athletes then more females would participate in sports that may make them more muscular, which nothing is wrong with that.


I agree, hence my praise of Ennis. But women shouldn't be told that their image doesn't matter. It's easy for men, an sports body is an idealised image across the board. However big muscly arms is not for women. By that I mean weight lifter size IMO, however many women have levels well below that as their limits.

Which brings me to question why their body image should matter, especially in sports. They can have big muscular arms if they want. I don't believe that they should take steroids to get them however.


It's not about the sport, it's the rest of their lives that influence their self image, which isn't just body image but perceptions they do something manish.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:12 pm

eldanielfire wrote:
It's not about the sport, it's the rest of their lives that influence their self image, which isn't just body image but perceptions they do something manish.

Which begs the question mannish by what standard? My answer would be society's arbitrary standards, which may have some basis in nature but are mostly what a lot of people think are suppose to be the standards of men and the standards of women (i.e. strength in men, grace in women). In other words the perceptions of women doing "manly" things are based on sex roles that have been in effect of centuries if not millenia, even if they are restrictive.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 7 guests