Women to compete in decathlon?


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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:49 am

26mi235 wrote:Not necessarily a good way to work and possibly largely irrelevant. What matters is the 'gradient', not the absolute points. You could give 2000 points for a good SP (e.g., 15m) and make the SP irrelevant by getting 10 more points for each meter because everyone would get about 2000 points.


I'll give you the notion that the 'gradient' is what matter. Having said that, I would still like the 1000-point mark in each event to be one not so easily achieved, so as to show a mark of a true world-class athlete in that event at least.

Speaking of scoring the decathlon there is a paper on the fairness of scoring the heptathlon and some alternative scoring systems that I would like you and others to read. It can be found at http://www.open.ou.nl/wim/publicationspdf/Women's%20heptathlon.pdf.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Norm Balke » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:31 am

I wish I'd never read the article by Ennis's coach. What a joke. Typical "I got mine, screw everyone else" approach that many track coaches have. Good grief, give it a 3-4 year head start and those that are still in the game can adjust, and any new talent can get started. Esthetics? Body type? Resources? Old-time sexism.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:15 am

I found some more tidbits about Mr. Minichiello at http://www.ifacscotland.co.uk/event-information/speakers/toni-minichiello. If he really believes in the "no boundaries" approach to coaching then he shouldn't really care if Jessica Ennis does the decathlon, "beautiful" or not. In fact, if he can't train her in pole vault or the discus, he should find coaches who can, like her javelin coach Mike Hill.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:39 pm

I did a calculation of Jessica Ennis's possible decathlon score based on her personal bests in the individual heptathlon events and the 100 meters plus numbers for other events based on numbers I think she should make. The possible decathlon marks and scores are as follows:

100m: 11.85 sec.: 981 points
Long Jump: 6.51 m.: 1010 points
Shot Put: 14.67 m.: 839 points
High Jump: 1.95 m.: 1171 points
400m: 52.79 sec.: 1014 points
100mH: 13.86 sec.: 998 points
Discus Throw: 43.29 m.: 718 points
Pole Vault: 2.95 m.: 544 points
Javelin Throw: 47.11 m.: 804 points
1500m: 4:58.27 min.: 838 points

Her total would be 8917 points. That would be a world record if she actually performed those marks.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:55 pm

Hard for her to do that 13 in the hurdles after the first day, topped with a 52.

On the other hand, given her speed, her long jumping and high jumping and hurdling, she should go well over 3 meters. I see a lot of lesser athletes doing 3.50.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby nianchengyu » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:26 pm

ralmcg wrote:I did a calculation of Jessica Ennis's possible decathlon score based on her personal bests in the individual heptathlon events and the 100 meters plus numbers for other events based on numbers I think she should make. The possible decathlon marks and scores are as follows:

100m: 11.85 sec.: 981 points
Long Jump: 6.51 m.: 1010 points
Shot Put: 14.67 m.: 839 points
High Jump: 1.95 m.: 1171 points
400m: 52.79 sec.: 1014 points
100mH: 13.86 sec.: 998 points
Discus Throw: 43.29 m.: 718 points
Pole Vault: 2.95 m.: 544 points
Javelin Throw: 47.11 m.: 804 points
1500m: 4:58.27 min.: 838 points

Her total would be 8917 points. That would be a world record if she actually performed those marks.

Are you kidding espically 100M AND 100Mh,Ennis though few run 100m,but her 100m best is 11.39s,iaaf did put it wrong,do youthink a 22.88s 200m runner only capable of 11.85?I think you want to express her 110mh/84cm stands 13.86s?1500m must some way from she can do,Karpova only try dec once and run 1500m under 5min.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:28 pm

nianchengyu wrote:
ralmcg wrote:I did a calculation of Jessica Ennis's possible decathlon score based on her personal bests in the individual heptathlon events and the 100 meters plus numbers for other events based on numbers I think she should make. The possible decathlon marks and scores are as follows:

100m: 11.85 sec.: 981 points
Long Jump: 6.51 m.: 1010 points
Shot Put: 14.67 m.: 839 points
High Jump: 1.95 m.: 1171 points
400m: 52.79 sec.: 1014 points
100mH: 13.86 sec.: 998 points
Discus Throw: 43.29 m.: 718 points
Pole Vault: 2.95 m.: 544 points
Javelin Throw: 47.11 m.: 804 points
1500m: 4:58.27 min.: 838 points

Her total would be 8917 points. That would be a world record if she actually performed those marks.

Are you kidding espically 100M AND 100Mh,Ennis though few run 100m,but her 100m best is 11.39s,iaaf did put it wrong,do youthink a 22.88s 200m runner only capable of 11.85?I think you want to express her 110mh/84cm stands 13.86s?1500m must some way from she can do,Karpova only try dec once and run 1500m under 5min.


Where and when did she run 11.39 sec.? Was the wind in legal speed or was it over 2 meters per second?
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Gabriella » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:26 am

She ran 11.39 in her 150m race at the 100m mark in 2010. The wind reading was -0.4. Prior to that she'd run an 11.68

Ennis, Manchester 2010
150m - 16.99
At 50m - 6.26
At 100m - 11.39

She was in superb short sprint form that year and there were rumours she was being considered on the GBR 4x100 team for the Euros.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:23 am

With her personal best in the 100m of 11.39 sec., which equals 1072 points, she could score 9008 points in total, breaking the 9000 points barrier. However having a score based on personal bests is one thing, actually doing them in one competition is another.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby nianchengyu » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:20 am

Gabriella wrote:She ran 11.39 in her 150m race at the 100m mark in 2010. The wind reading was -0.4. Prior to that she'd run an 11.68

Ennis, Manchester 2010
150m - 16.99
At 50m - 6.26
At 100m - 11.39

She was in superb short sprint form that year and there were rumours she was being considered on the GBR 4x100 team for the Euros.

yeah,by the way,11.68s into 1.2 headwind.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:52 am

Jessica Ennis's personal best for the 100H should be 12.79 sec. or 1156 points. That would make her total decathlon points to be 9166.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:59 am

Now to what Tatyana Chernova's decathlon score could be using her best results from her heptathlon events plus results used in Jessica Ennis's score for the other events. Here is my calculations:

100m: 11.39 sec.: 1072 points
LJ: 6.82 m.: 1112 points
SP: 14.17 m.: 805 points
HJ: 1.87 m.: 1067 points
400m: 52.79 sec.: 1014 points
100mH: 13.32 sec.: 1077 points
DT: 43.29 m.: 718 points
PV: 2.95 m.: 544 points
JT: 54.49 m.: 947 points
1500m: 4:58.27 min.: 838 points

Her total score would be 9194 points, 28 more points than Jessica Ennis.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:33 pm

The subject of women's decathlon and whether it is a true measure of an all-around female athlete compared to the heptathlon had me thinking. Would you think that anybody would call a man who did just the seven events of the heptathlon (with the 110mH replacing the 100mH) as "the world's greatest athlete"? Or is it mandated that he also do pole vault, the discus, and three non-hurdle races, one of which is 1500 meters? My way of thinking is if the men's version of the heptathlon is enough to determine "the world's greatest athlete" then the women's heptathlon should stay as it is. If, on the other hand, it is required of a male athlete to do ten events to prove his all-around athleticness then the women need a decathlon in order to prove that they are "the world's greatest female athletes".
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:02 pm

I would like to ask any women multi-eventers out there some questions. To heptathletes do you feel that it is sexist that you are asked only to do seven events while men do ten? Do you feel offended that the track events are shorter than the men's, no discus, and no pole vault? Or do you think that seven events are enough? To decathletes do you want to do just seven events? Or do you think that ten events are more fun?
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:29 pm

I have a theory about women's multi-events in track and field. In a time when women in the Olympics were restricted to three individual events it seemed strange for women to do a five-event competition (the pentathlon). And it was like pulling teeth to make the IAAF raise the number of events to seven (the heptathlon). It is difficult, if not impossible, for women to do ten events (the decathlon). My belief is that the men in charge believed that women were incapable, because of their perceived weakness, of competing in more than one event, especially if they were to be done in one day or two consecutive days. If the IAAF really believes in the competence of female athletes it should make the decathlon the multi-event competition for women in the World Championships and in the Olympics.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby gh » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:36 am

I agree about the need for a switch, but the big roadblock is apparently athletes and coaches who are loathe to change years of training (aka largely known as, resistance to having to learn to vault, methinks), not the IAAF, which opened the door by making the dec a bonafide WR event for women.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby user4 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:04 am

Let me offer a viewpoint that differs considerably from the zeitgeist of the day. Men and women are different in many ways. Having a cookie cutter "mult-event" for both of the genders does not seem so patently obvious and it is certainly not likely to increase general pubic interest in T&F at WC and OG.

There is no harm in women competing in decathlons and no harm in men competing in 7 event competitions that include 200m and 800m. As long as we dont judge men' s performances by womens standards and vice versa all can go well. More events and types of competition in general and more multi-event categories would do T&F a world of good.

There is an aesthetic component to this. What events should constitute the men's and womens multi-events in WC and OG is something that should take a great deal of time from the deliberative bodies to weigh. No need to jump to conclusions and then regret the decision.

There seems to me no clear reason why the two genders should be considered identically the same. If nature has made men on average more brutish, heavy set and muscular why should we not have a men's multi-event that conforms to nature and asks more from the man in terms of strength than what it asks of women.

One could make a serious case for changing both the mens decathlon and the womens mult-event to put more distance between them. Maybe more endurance for women, put a 5k race in there, maybe add the pole vault. I can see having the women's as a deca/10 eventer but certainly please dont add the shotput and discus throw...ugh.

The troglodyte has spoken.

PS: if the IAAF/IOC really believes in the competence of men in athletics they will immediately save face and change the decathlon to the heptathlon.

PSS: I would like to ask the men out there, do you think it is sexist that you are asked to compete in 10 events with 3 throwing events and women are being asked to compete in 7 events with a longer sprint event ? Please be honest with your feelings, there is no right or wrong answer.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:13 am

The idea of a men's outdoor heptathlon would help in an equal playing field for both men and women. The question is will the sport's governing authorities buy into altering a multi-event that has been held for at least a century. Will the decathletes like the idea? Is it better to raise the standards of women's multi-eventers by doing the decathlon or to lower the standards of men's multi-eventers by doing the heptathlon?
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 18.99s » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:09 am

ralmcg wrote:The idea of a men's outdoor heptathlon would help in an equal playing field for both men and women.


And if it's turned into a 1-day competition it would create more opportunities for both men and women, with many more meets including it (even if 3 or 4 events are done in the morning with no crowd).
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:28 am

18.99s wrote:
ralmcg wrote:The idea of a men's outdoor heptathlon would help in an equal playing field for both men and women.


And if it's turned into a 1-day competition it would create more opportunities for both men and women, with many more meets including it (even if 3 or 4 events are done in the morning with no crowd).


Sounds good in theory. The question is can anybody, man or woman, do seven events in one day without having one's health at risk.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:24 am

The SP comment is a bit of a head-scratcher; it was in the Pent and is now in the Hept. The 200 makes sense as it is the geometric mean of the 100 and 400 (and likewise with the 800) and you have to cut down a running event with 7 events. The complaint with the Hept is that it is too speed oriented (both women outdoors and men indoors).

I understand the point about having the events differ because the 'vector' of abilities differ. However, as a sport, the men and women have essentially the same events, with the biggest difference being the multi events, both indoors and out. The scoring 'vector' can differentiate the importance of strength versus, say, speed, and does so in the Hept.

As for the one-day event. Joe Detmer did an amazing double-decathlon [icosathlon, which as the 10,000, 5000, Steeple, Hammer, 400h, ... and is more grueling in nature in event selection as well as being more grueling by having two days of 10 events each]. He scored about 7741 in the decathlon subset and hit an aggregate world best that seems unlikely to be easily broken unless an Ashton Eaton goes after it (Detmer's PR is 8090, so the 7741 mark is amazing even if it is, say a lower value of 7500)

It is noteworthy that Detmer, with a personal best decathlon of 8090 points this year, scored an unbelievable 7741 point in the decathlon events during the icosathlon.

100 metres
Long jump
200 metre hurdles
Shot put
5000 metres
pause
800 metres
High jump
400 metres
Hammer throw
3000 meter steeplechase

On the second day of the standard icosathlon, the following events are contested:

110 metre hurdles
Discus throw
200 metres
Pole vault
3000 metres
pause
400 metre hurdles
Javelin throw
1500 metres
Triple jump
10000 m
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Daisy » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:27 am

26mi235 wrote:icosathlon

I've never heard of this before. Two very busy days. Is this actually semi-offical?

To answer my own question: Yes. And this years championship will be in Yeovil on 24 Aug - 25 Aug.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icosathlon
Last edited by Daisy on Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:31 am

26mile235, I never saw the 200m hurdles in any regular track and field competition. Is that only for the icosathlon?
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby gh » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:33 am

Daisy wrote:
26mi235 wrote:icosathlon

I've never heard of this before. Two very busy days. Is this actually semi-offical?

To answer my own question: Yes. And this years championship will be in Yeovil on 24 Aug - 25 Aug.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icosathlon


we've been reporting it on and off (in small note fashion, to be sure) in the magazine since the '70s I believe.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:45 am

The used to do the 220 yard hurdles when I was in high school (mid-60s). I think it is one of the WRs by Jesse Owens in his "Top 45 minutes of track and field history".

Wikipedia
Owens's greatest achievement came in a span of 45 minutes on May 25, 1935, during the Big Ten meet at Ferry Field in Ann Arbor, Michigan, where he set three world records and tied a fourth. He equaled the world record for the 100 yard dash (9.4 seconds); and set world records in the long jump (26 ft 8 1⁄4 in or 8.13 m, a world record that would last 25 years); 220-yard (201.2 m) sprint (20.3 seconds); and 220-yard (201.2m) low hurdles (22.6 seconds, becoming the first to break 23 seconds).[4] In 2005, University of Central Florida professor of sports history Richard C. Crepeau chose these wins on one day as the most impressive athletic achievement since 1850
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby aaronk » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:24 am

26mi235 wrote:The used to do the 220 yard hurdles when I was in high school (mid-60s). I think it is one of the WRs by Jesse Owens in his "Top 45 minutes of track and field history".

Wikipedia
Owens's greatest achievement came in a span of 45 minutes on May 25, 1935, during the Big Ten meet at Ferry Field in Ann Arbor, Michigan, where he set three world records and tied a fourth. He equaled the world record for the 100 yard dash (9.4 seconds); and set world records in the long jump (26 ft 8 1⁄4 in or 8.13 m, a world record that would last 25 years); 220-yard (201.2 m) sprint (20.3 seconds); and 220-yard (201.2m) low hurdles (22.6 seconds, becoming the first to break 23 seconds).[4] In 2005, University of Central Florida professor of sports history Richard C. Crepeau chose these wins on one day as the most impressive athletic achievement since 1850


I graduated HS in 1962...and they were doing the 180 yard Low Hurdles then in HS.
I think the collegiates and the open races were run at 220 yards!
They ran the 110H and 400H too, but only on the world stage (OG, CG, EC, etc).
And the women were still doing 80H then!!

And weren't the 180's...if not the 220's...run all on the straightaway then??
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 18.99s » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:25 am

ralmcg wrote:
18.99s wrote:
ralmcg wrote:The idea of a men's outdoor heptathlon would help in an equal playing field for both men and women.


And if it's turned into a 1-day competition it would create more opportunities for both men and women, with many more meets including it (even if 3 or 4 events are done in the morning with no crowd).


Sounds good in theory. The question is can anybody, man or woman, do seven events in one day without having one's health at risk.


You think seven events in one day is too much? Think about the one-hour decathlon: http://www.decathlon2000.com/eng/845/
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby aaronk » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:28 am

BTW, if the main deterrent to women trying the Decathlon is the PV.....then wouldn't it be the simple solution for women PV'ers to take up the Dec....and lead the way??

(So what if they can't run, jump, or throw!! :P )
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:15 pm

Vaulters tend to be good all-around athletes because you need speed, strength, skill, coordination, balance ... and it helps to be fearless. However, I can not really recall any vaulters that were sprinters; the most common second event might be ten events - the decathlon. Hurdles seem more likely than the straight sprints.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:45 pm

Does anybody know about any women's decathlons this year especially in the USA?
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Daisy » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:59 pm

gh wrote:
Daisy wrote:
26mi235 wrote:icosathlon

Is this actually semi-offical?

we've been reporting it on and off (in small note fashion, to be sure) in the magazine since the '70s I believe.

Busted. I guess I don't read the small print :)
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby gh » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:00 pm

aaronk wrote:BTW, if the main deterrent to women trying the Decathlon is the PV.....then wouldn't it be the simple solution for women PV'ers to take up the Dec....and lead the way??

(So what if they can't run, jump, or throw!! :P )


Of course, but this is backwards. The problem is that existing heptathletes by and large find the vault anathema, so convincing them/their coaches that their world is about to undergo a quantum change (not to mention adding another technically difficult event, the discus) is a very hard sell.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby aaronk » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:54 pm

gh wrote:
aaronk wrote:BTW, if the main deterrent to women trying the Decathlon is the PV.....then wouldn't it be the simple solution for women PV'ers to take up the Dec....and lead the way??

(So what if they can't run, jump, or throw!! :P )


Of course, but this is backwards. The problem is that existing heptathletes by and large find the vault anathema, so convincing them/their coaches that their world is about to undergo a quantum change (not to mention adding another technically difficult event, the discus) is a very hard sell.


You got a point! (Several, in fact! :D )
But remember when the OG added the marathon?
The women could run no farther than 1500 until then (in the OG)....and suddenly, you had a wellspring of 26.2 milers suddenly appear.....ready to race!!

Methinks that if you put the carrot (the Dec for women) out there, the horses (errrr...the gals!! :oops: ) will follow!
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 18.99s » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:03 pm

aaronk wrote:You got a point! (Several, in fact! :D )
But remember when the OG added the marathon?


When they added the women's marathon, they didn't remove any other women's event. They even added another event, the 3000m.

But adding the decathlon will remove the heptathlon. That's where the resistance lies. It would have taken much longer to add the women's marathon if it meant removing the 1500m.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:22 pm

By the time they added the marathon, the marks were already down to 2:21 (run before or after the Games? by IK) and 2:24 (JB, OG) or so. [JB just ran 2:50 at age 50++.]
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 18.99s » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:25 pm

26mi235 wrote:By the time they added the marathon, the marks were already down to 2:21 (run before or after the Games? by IK) and 2:24 (JB, OG) or so. [JB just ran 2:50 at age 50++.]


That's another point. For several years there had already been numerous marathons outside of the Olympics for women to compete in. But the women's decathlon is rarely held anywhere.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby tgs3 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:32 pm

aaronk wrote:Methinks that if you put the carrot (the Dec for women) out there, the horses (errrr...the gals!! :oops: ) will follow!


Some might, but most likely the event would feature a lot of youngsters in the early years. If there was an announcement made that women were switching to the decathlon in 2017, I think you'd see a lot of current heptathletes retiring earlier than they normally would have after the games in Rio.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby marknhj » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:33 pm

Am I alone here in having zero desire to see the multi-event women in a decathlon? Firstly, I find the heptathlon much more interesting from a spectator point-of-view than the decathlon (based on the elite seeming to be better in depth in more of the disciples - written knowing the stat freaks will now show me to be wrong - and it's more compact and spectator friendly); secondly, the thought of enduring a PV competition for non-PVers just sounds awful. For at least a decade many will be jumping at ludicrously low heights and even some the world's very best will be made to look like total amateurs. It'll be as interesting as watching the decathlon 1500m is now. And what about the discus? That will be awful too.

I fully support the elite athletes and their coaches wanting nothing to do with it. In fact, let's take the men down to the octathlon outdoors.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:02 pm

marknhj wrote:Am I alone here in having zero desire to see the multi-event women in a decathlon? Firstly, I find the heptathlon much more interesting from a spectator point-of-view than the decathlon (based on the elite seeming to be better in depth in more of the disciples - written knowing the stat freaks will now show me to be wrong - and it's more compact and spectator friendly); secondly, the thought of enduring a PV competition for non-PVers just sounds awful. For at least a decade many will be jumping at ludicrously low heights and even some the world's very best will be made to look like total amateurs. It'll be as interesting as watching the decathlon 1500m is now. And what about the discus? That will be awful too.

I fully support the elite athletes and their coaches wanting nothing to do with it. In fact, let's take the men down to the octathlon outdoors.

That makes it more imperative to have more women's decathlons, culminating in the World Championships and the Olympics. The sooner it starts the sooner the women decathletes will be good pole vaulter and discus throwers. Besides, what events will there be in the octathlon, since the same will be done by both men and women.
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Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby marknhj » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:21 pm

ralmcg wrote:That makes it more imperative to have more women's decathlons, culminating in the World Championships and the Olympics. The sooner it starts the sooner the women decathletes will be good pole vaulter and discus throwers. Besides, what events will there be in the octathlon, since the same will be done by both men and women.


The first Olympic decathlon was held 110 years ago and many men are still crap at the 1500m, PV and discus (for example). So we should have a women's decathlon asap so by 2117 AD some of them may not be too bad at the PV?

Seriously though, at a time when it may be a good idea to try to make the sport more user friendly, do we really want to make some of the best women athletes in history look like school kids? I don't.
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