Women to compete in decathlon?

[Marlow]

Which begs the question. If the "have-not" countries can't support the pole vault why didn't they introduce and vote on the pole vault being removed from the men's multi-event?

Over 100 years of tradition creates too much inertia to overcome. Inertia is also what's keeping the Hep from becoming the Dec. Hidebound Neanderthals don't like change.

[ralmcg]

If lack of resources is the only thing that prevents some countries from voting for the change from heptathlon to decathlon then maybe a "sweetner" such as financial and coaching aid could persuade them. It has to be announced publicly before the vote so as not to be seen as an irregularity.

[Fortius19]

Speaking of 100 years, since this year is the centenial of the decathlon as we know it, it would have been great if some forward thinking people in charge set up the first Oly Women's Deca for London.

[Gabriella]

I don't think anything's changed since we started this thread. I'd like to see the dectahlon for women introduced for the 2020 Olympics. I think the IAAF should give advanced notice now of the introduction of this event after 2016. That's roughly 5 years advance warning.

This notion that countries don't have the facilities doesn't hold IMO as the men have the decathlon and both sexes compete in the PV.

The women demonstrated brilliantly in Istanbul they can cope with 5 events in one day. The men may still have a 2 day competition indoors, but the women's programme, having the LJ as the 4th event just before the 800m, is very taxing.

There has been some discussion around whether the female multieventer will change from a speed/jump type women to one with a stronger upper body, to cope with the additional throw and PV. Well, maybe, but it's still a speed/jump event, that's where the points lie, and you have to have athleticism and gymnastic ability to compete in the decathlon. I just think the decathlon will be fairer in terms of both (a) sexual equality and (b) determining the best all-rounder. Athletes like Shouua, Braun, Turchinskaya, Skujyte and Dobrynska have all 'lost' points due to the weighting on the 100mh/LJ/200m, whereas hopefully the DT may even things out a little more. I know the decathlon still favours the 100/LJ guys, but there's no hiding in the PV and DT.

One last thing. I dont like the current order of the women's decathlon, which switches the middle 3 events:

Women
Day 1: 100m/ DT/ PV/ JT/400
Day 2: 100mh/ LJ/ SP/ HJ/ 1500

Men
Day 1: 100m/LJ/ SP/ HJ/ 400
Day 2: 110mh/ DT/ PV/ JT/ 1500


The events where you have a strict stride pattern (all bold) are distributed better and more evenly in the mens order, whereas in the womens they are lumped together more. (the JT stride pattern is different to the LJ or HJ where you have to hit an exact mark)
My preference is for it to fit the same pattern as the men's event, mainly so it is as close as possible to being the same event.

[Norm Balke]

This has been a problem for me for a long time. I think it hits at a lot of levels:

1. ALL EVENTS the same for men and women! With the differences in weights of implements, of course. I can't speak to the 100H/110H difference - is it athlete height and that's why 10m shorter?

2. Why the foot dragging? I seem to remember this issue coming up YEARS ago! It is what track coaches are good at - ducking and dodging. Things are good now - why change? Why do we have so few scoring meets? Things are good - don't change. They don't care if the sport is rotting on the vine. It's no coincidence that the popularity of tnf has declined as the number of scored meets as increased over the years.

3. Why is track and field struggling? Too much confusion. My daughter does multi-events, and many's the time I have to explain what a pentathlon or heptathlon is. Many more people know what a decathlon is. The constant explaining yourself if you are involved with track and field:

1975
"You had a meet last night, how did it go?"
"We beat West High 105-104, came down to the last event."
"Cool, nice job!"

2012
"You had a meet last night, how did it go?"
"Uh well, it went alright, it wasn't scored and we had a couple guys train through and we got a few firsts, and ..."
(other person zones out)

If you never have to win or lose, you can spin your program any way you want!

More confusion: True story: One of my kids was watching a WC with the events he like the most were: PV, HT, JT, TJ. Sorry, kid, you can't do those things, we don't have them in Iowa, here go shuffle your feet with this soccer ball in backyard. There is no uniformity with the sport nationwide. If you go watch the NCAA basketball this week, every court is 94 feet, every hoop is 10', every ball is the same size, etc, etc. NO confusion.

IN track and field some states do this, some states do that, some conferences do other things.

I am rambling and hitting on a lot of subjects. To sum up:

If I ran the zoo, the "warning" for women's dec would be as follows: hept is DEAD by 2014, NCAA event in 2014, WC 2015, Olympic event 2016. The current heptathletes would need to adjust, and I'm sure that the majority would do fine! Same events as men BTW!!!!!!!!

[ralmcg]

This has been a problem for me for a long time. I think it hits at a lot of levels:

1. ALL EVENTS the same for men and women! With the differences in weights of implements, of course. I can't speak to the 100H/110H difference - is it athlete height and that's why 10m shorter?

2. Why the foot dragging? I seem to remember this issue coming up YEARS ago! It is what track coaches are good at - ducking and dodging. Things are good now - why change? Why do we have so few scoring meets? Things are good - don't change. They don't care if the sport is rotting on the vine. It's no coincidence that the popularity of tnf has declined as the number of scored meets as increased over the years.

3. Why is track and field struggling? Too much confusion. My daughter does multi-events, and many's the time I have to explain what a pentathlon or heptathlon is. Many more people know what a decathlon is. The constant explaining yourself if you are involved with track and field:

1975
"You had a meet last night, how did it go?"
"We beat West High 105-104, came down to the last event."
"Cool, nice job!"

2012
"You had a meet last night, how did it go?"
"Uh well, it went alright, it wasn't scored and we had a couple guys train through and we got a few firsts, and ..."
(other person zones out)

If you never have to win or lose, you can spin your program any way you want!

More confusion: True story: One of my kids was watching a WC with the events he like the most were: PV, HT, JT, TJ. Sorry, kid, you can't do those things, we don't have them in Iowa, here go shuffle your feet with this soccer ball in backyard. There is no uniformity with the sport nationwide. If you go watch the NCAA basketball this week, every court is 94 feet, every hoop is 10', every ball is the same size, etc, etc. NO confusion.

IN track and field some states do this, some states do that, some conferences do other things.

I am rambling and hitting on a lot of subjects. To sum up:

If I ran the zoo, the "warning" for women's dec would be as follows: hept is DEAD by 2014, NCAA event in 2014, WC 2015, Olympic event 2016. The current heptathletes would need to adjust, and I'm sure that the majority would do fine! Same events as men BTW!!!!!!!!

I don't think that the IAAF would vote for it to be that early for the women's decathlon to be the women's multi-eventer in the major meets. However, I believe that there should be a decision by the IAAF on the timing for the women's decathlon to be the major women's multi-eventer and it should be done sooner rather than later, preferably the decision should be made in 2012.

[nianchengyu]

wow,if women change to dec,there are fewer chances for them to participate in individuals,and much more work to do,why not hold the women special instead of looking equally to men everywhere?women definitely can do dec,but you know how many pen stars to be forgotten by people before 1980,there are no detail records about pen such as indivi marks instead of marks only which has little meanings espicially scores changed several times in that time?

[ralmcg]

I notice something. When the main women's multi-event changed from the pentathlon to the heptathon in the early 1980's women were competing in all the events that made up the decathlon (substituting the 100mH for the 110mH) except the pole vault. Why didn't the IAAF and the IOC make a 9-event competition instead of a 7-event competition? Did they feel that women were too week to do nine events, including a 1500 meter run? If that was done in the 1980's then I believe it would have been easier to add just one more event, the pole vault, to the women's multi-event in the 2000's. Just an observation.

[ralmcg]

The Hypomeeting in Gotzis, Austria, had me thinking. How about an international women's decathlon meet in the United States. The stadium doesn't have to be big and it could be held in a small town (Gotzis, Austria has a population of around 10,500), provided that there is access to a superhighway. The organizer could invite top heptathletes, perhaps by telling them that they could try new challenges especially the pole vault, the discus, and the 1500 meters. The idea might sound crazy but I bet that having a multi-event competition in little Gotzis sounded crazy the first time it was proposed.

[Fortius19]

I thought they tried that in Eugene a few years back and apparently never happened.

[aaronk]

maybe USA Prez Hillary can get us sensible health insurance AND a decathlon for women....

I'm sure you meant "USA Prez SARAH P.", right??
I mean, she's a gen-u-ine athlete, and as serious a runner as any politician!!
(Ran 1:46:10 in Iowa Half-Mar last Sept 4, 2nd in age group. Also ran full Mar in 2005 in 3:59:36. ANDDDD.......named her first born son TRACK......after the sport!!!)

That said, on to the Dec for women!!!

YES! YES! YES!!
They went from 5 to 7 events, can go to 10!!
Same events as men, except for 100H vs 110's, and keep women's weights!!
Keep the 1500!!
Also, just as with men, Jrs should have Jr weights, etc.

[Marlow]

How about an international women's decathlon meet in the United States.

There HAVE been Decs in the USA and overseas.
I believe the AR is 7577 by Tiffany Lott in 2000 and the WR is 8366 by Austra Skujytė in 2005.

[ralmcg]

An article about heptathlon scoring made me think. Since there is little record of women's decathlon events if there is a revisied scoring system then the women's decathlon is a good place to start. One idea on how to make a new scoring table is in order to get 1000 points in a single event the time or distance must be at least "A" standard. I know that the IAAF standards for qualifying for a major championships or the Olympics are not perfect but we have to start somewhere. The 1000 points in a single event should be awarded only for a world-class performance.

[26mi235]

Not necessarily a good way to work and possibly largely irrelevant. What matters is the 'gradient', not the absolute points. You could give 2000 points for a good SP (e.g., 15m) and make the SP irrelevant by getting 10 more points for each meter because everyone would get about 2000 points.

[ralmcg]

Here is an interview with Toni Minichiello, coach of Jessica Ennis, done last year which is relevant to the discussion about the women's decathlon. It can be found at http://www.decathlon2000.com/eng/3176/women-decathlon-interview-with-tony-minichiello--coach-of-jessica-ennis. I don't agree that any "beauty" would be lost by the changeover from the heptathlon to the decathlon. The difference of daily events in the men's and women's decathlon shouldn't be a problem. It won't be a problem in the Olympics and the World Championships since the men's decathlon will be on separate dates from the women's decathlon and the women's decathlon can use the same order of events as the men's decathlon. Also there can be women only decathlon meets.

[ralmcg]

Not necessarily a good way to work and possibly largely irrelevant. What matters is the 'gradient', not the absolute points. You could give 2000 points for a good SP (e.g., 15m) and make the SP irrelevant by getting 10 more points for each meter because everyone would get about 2000 points.

I'll give you the notion that the 'gradient' is what matter. Having said that, I would still like the 1000-point mark in each event to be one not so easily achieved, so as to show a mark of a true world-class athlete in that event at least.

Speaking of scoring the decathlon there is a paper on the fairness of scoring the heptathlon and some alternative scoring systems that I would like you and others to read. It can be found at http://www.open.ou.nl/wim/publicationspdf/Women's%20heptathlon.pdf.

[Norm Balke]

I wish I'd never read the article by Ennis's coach. What a joke. Typical "I got mine, screw everyone else" approach that many track coaches have. Good grief, give it a 3-4 year head start and those that are still in the game can adjust, and any new talent can get started. Esthetics? Body type? Resources? Old-time sexism.

[ralmcg]

I found some more tidbits about Mr. Minichiello at http://www.ifacscotland.co.uk/event-information/speakers/toni-minichiello. If he really believes in the "no boundaries" approach to coaching then he shouldn't really care if Jessica Ennis does the decathlon, "beautiful" or not. In fact, if he can't train her in pole vault or the discus, he should find coaches who can, like her javelin coach Mike Hill.

[ralmcg]

I did a calculation of Jessica Ennis's possible decathlon score based on her personal bests in the individual heptathlon events and the 100 meters plus numbers for other events based on numbers I think she should make. The possible decathlon marks and scores are as follows:

100m: 11.85 sec.: 981 points
Long Jump: 6.51 m.: 1010 points
Shot Put: 14.67 m.: 839 points
High Jump: 1.95 m.: 1171 points
400m: 52.79 sec.: 1014 points
100mH: 13.86 sec.: 998 points
Discus Throw: 43.29 m.: 718 points
Pole Vault: 2.95 m.: 544 points
Javelin Throw: 47.11 m.: 804 points
1500m: 4:58.27 min.: 838 points

Her total would be 8917 points. That would be a world record if she actually performed those marks.

[26mi235]

Hard for her to do that 13 in the hurdles after the first day, topped with a 52.

On the other hand, given her speed, her long jumping and high jumping and hurdling, she should go well over 3 meters. I see a lot of lesser athletes doing 3.50.

[nianchengyu]

I did a calculation of Jessica Ennis's possible decathlon score based on her personal bests in the individual heptathlon events and the 100 meters plus numbers for other events based on numbers I think she should make. The possible decathlon marks and scores are as follows:

100m: 11.85 sec.: 981 points
Long Jump: 6.51 m.: 1010 points
Shot Put: 14.67 m.: 839 points
High Jump: 1.95 m.: 1171 points
400m: 52.79 sec.: 1014 points
100mH: 13.86 sec.: 998 points
Discus Throw: 43.29 m.: 718 points
Pole Vault: 2.95 m.: 544 points
Javelin Throw: 47.11 m.: 804 points
1500m: 4:58.27 min.: 838 points

Her total would be 8917 points. That would be a world record if she actually performed those marks.

Are you kidding espically 100M AND 100Mh,Ennis though few run 100m,but her 100m best is 11.39s,iaaf did put it wrong,do youthink a 22.88s 200m runner only capable of 11.85?I think you want to express her 110mh/84cm stands 13.86s?1500m must some way from she can do,Karpova only try dec once and run 1500m under 5min.

[ralmcg]

I did a calculation of Jessica Ennis's possible decathlon score based on her personal bests in the individual heptathlon events and the 100 meters plus numbers for other events based on numbers I think she should make. The possible decathlon marks and scores are as follows:

100m: 11.85 sec.: 981 points
Long Jump: 6.51 m.: 1010 points
Shot Put: 14.67 m.: 839 points
High Jump: 1.95 m.: 1171 points
400m: 52.79 sec.: 1014 points
100mH: 13.86 sec.: 998 points
Discus Throw: 43.29 m.: 718 points
Pole Vault: 2.95 m.: 544 points
Javelin Throw: 47.11 m.: 804 points
1500m: 4:58.27 min.: 838 points

Her total would be 8917 points. That would be a world record if she actually performed those marks.

Are you kidding espically 100M AND 100Mh,Ennis though few run 100m,but her 100m best is 11.39s,iaaf did put it wrong,do youthink a 22.88s 200m runner only capable of 11.85?I think you want to express her 110mh/84cm stands 13.86s?1500m must some way from she can do,Karpova only try dec once and run 1500m under 5min.

Where and when did she run 11.39 sec.? Was the wind in legal speed or was it over 2 meters per second?

[Gabriella]

She ran 11.39 in her 150m race at the 100m mark in 2010. The wind reading was -0.4. Prior to that she'd run an 11.68

Ennis, Manchester 2010
150m - 16.99
At 50m - 6.26
At 100m - 11.39

She was in superb short sprint form that year and there were rumours she was being considered on the GBR 4x100 team for the Euros.

[ralmcg]

With her personal best in the 100m of 11.39 sec., which equals 1072 points, she could score 9008 points in total, breaking the 9000 points barrier. However having a score based on personal bests is one thing, actually doing them in one competition is another.

[nianchengyu]

She ran 11.39 in her 150m race at the 100m mark in 2010. The wind reading was -0.4. Prior to that she'd run an 11.68

Ennis, Manchester 2010
150m - 16.99
At 50m - 6.26
At 100m - 11.39

She was in superb short sprint form that year and there were rumours she was being considered on the GBR 4x100 team for the Euros.

yeah,by the way,11.68s into 1.2 headwind.

[ralmcg]

Jessica Ennis's personal best for the 100H should be 12.79 sec. or 1156 points. That would make her total decathlon points to be 9166.

[ralmcg]

Now to what Tatyana Chernova's decathlon score could be using her best results from her heptathlon events plus results used in Jessica Ennis's score for the other events. Here is my calculations:

100m: 11.39 sec.: 1072 points
LJ: 6.82 m.: 1112 points
SP: 14.17 m.: 805 points
HJ: 1.87 m.: 1067 points
400m: 52.79 sec.: 1014 points
100mH: 13.32 sec.: 1077 points
DT: 43.29 m.: 718 points
PV: 2.95 m.: 544 points
JT: 54.49 m.: 947 points
1500m: 4:58.27 min.: 838 points

Her total score would be 9194 points, 28 more points than Jessica Ennis.

[ralmcg]

The subject of women's decathlon and whether it is a true measure of an all-around female athlete compared to the heptathlon had me thinking. Would you think that anybody would call a man who did just the seven events of the heptathlon (with the 110mH replacing the 100mH) as "the world's greatest athlete"? Or is it mandated that he also do pole vault, the discus, and three non-hurdle races, one of which is 1500 meters? My way of thinking is if the men's version of the heptathlon is enough to determine "the world's greatest athlete" then the women's heptathlon should stay as it is. If, on the other hand, it is required of a male athlete to do ten events to prove his all-around athleticness then the women need a decathlon in order to prove that they are "the world's greatest female athletes".

[ralmcg]

I would like to ask any women multi-eventers out there some questions. To heptathletes do you feel that it is sexist that you are asked only to do seven events while men do ten? Do you feel offended that the track events are shorter than the men's, no discus, and no pole vault? Or do you think that seven events are enough? To decathletes do you want to do just seven events? Or do you think that ten events are more fun?

[ralmcg]

I have a theory about women's multi-events in track and field. In a time when women in the Olympics were restricted to three individual events it seemed strange for women to do a five-event competition (the pentathlon). And it was like pulling teeth to make the IAAF raise the number of events to seven (the heptathlon). It is difficult, if not impossible, for women to do ten events (the decathlon). My belief is that the men in charge believed that women were incapable, because of their perceived weakness, of competing in more than one event, especially if they were to be done in one day or two consecutive days. If the IAAF really believes in the competence of female athletes it should make the decathlon the multi-event competition for women in the World Championships and in the Olympics.

[gh]

I agree about the need for a switch, but the big roadblock is apparently athletes and coaches who are loathe to change years of training (aka largely known as, resistance to having to learn to vault, methinks), not the IAAF, which opened the door by making the dec a bonafide WR event for women.

[user4]

Let me offer a viewpoint that differs considerably from the zeitgeist of the day. Men and women are different in many ways. Having a cookie cutter "mult-event" for both of the genders does not seem so patently obvious and it is certainly not likely to increase general pubic interest in T&F at WC and OG.

There is no harm in women competing in decathlons and no harm in men competing in 7 event competitions that include 200m and 800m. As long as we dont judge men' s performances by womens standards and vice versa all can go well. More events and types of competition in general and more multi-event categories would do T&F a world of good.

There is an aesthetic component to this. What events should constitute the men's and womens multi-events in WC and OG is something that should take a great deal of time from the deliberative bodies to weigh. No need to jump to conclusions and then regret the decision.

There seems to me no clear reason why the two genders should be considered identically the same. If nature has made men on average more brutish, heavy set and muscular why should we not have a men's multi-event that conforms to nature and asks more from the man in terms of strength than what it asks of women.

One could make a serious case for changing both the mens decathlon and the womens mult-event to put more distance between them. Maybe more endurance for women, put a 5k race in there, maybe add the pole vault. I can see having the women's as a deca/10 eventer but certainly please dont add the shotput and discus throw...ugh.

The troglodyte has spoken.

PS: if the IAAF/IOC really believes in the competence of men in athletics they will immediately save face and change the decathlon to the heptathlon.

PSS: I would like to ask the men out there, do you think it is sexist that you are asked to compete in 10 events with 3 throwing events and women are being asked to compete in 7 events with a longer sprint event ? Please be honest with your feelings, there is no right or wrong answer.

[ralmcg]

The idea of a men's outdoor heptathlon would help in an equal playing field for both men and women. The question is will the sport's governing authorities buy into altering a multi-event that has been held for at least a century. Will the decathletes like the idea? Is it better to raise the standards of women's multi-eventers by doing the decathlon or to lower the standards of men's multi-eventers by doing the heptathlon?

[18.99s]

The idea of a men's outdoor heptathlon would help in an equal playing field for both men and women.

And if it's turned into a 1-day competition it would create more opportunities for both men and women, with many more meets including it (even if 3 or 4 events are done in the morning with no crowd).

[ralmcg]

The idea of a men's outdoor heptathlon would help in an equal playing field for both men and women.

And if it's turned into a 1-day competition it would create more opportunities for both men and women, with many more meets including it (even if 3 or 4 events are done in the morning with no crowd).

Sounds good in theory. The question is can anybody, man or woman, do seven events in one day without having one's health at risk.