Women to compete in decathlon?


Main message board: for the discussion of topical track & field items only.

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Powell » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:25 am

LopenUupunut wrote:
Powell wrote:So you're saying that for a few years female multi-eventers would do the PV indoors, but not out? That just doesn't make sense at all.
They currently do javelin outdoors, but not in. Obviously, the reasons for that are quite different, but the result is quite similar and we don't see heaps of people complaining.


But the outdoor season is more important, so the athletes don't doubt it's worthwhile to train for JT. But can you really see the multi-eventers learning to vault (and it takes a lot of work) if they are only going to have an opportunity to do this event in competition in winter? It's more likely we would see 95% of elite heptathletes skip the indoor altogether.
Powell
 
Posts: 9063
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Vanuatu

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:44 am

Powell wrote:
LopenUupunut wrote:
Powell wrote:So you're saying that for a few years female multi-eventers would do the PV indoors, but not out? That just doesn't make sense at all.
They currently do javelin outdoors, but not in. Obviously, the reasons for that are quite different, but the result is quite similar and we don't see heaps of people complaining.


But the outdoor season is more important, so the athletes don't doubt it's worthwhile to train for JT. But can you really see the multi-eventers learning to vault (and it takes a lot of work) if they are only going to have an opportunity to do this event in competition in winter? It's more likely we would see 95% of elite heptathletes skip the indoor altogether.


I was just commenting that it would provide a lower-profile, partial step to start a transition. Once the vault is a known skill for a subset of multi athletes, adding two more (100/400/1500 vs 200/800, DT) would not be as big a 'leap'. Also, it would not have too big of an affect on the current crop of top athletes without PV skills and thus might get a bit less resistance from that set of stakeholders.
26mi235
 
Posts: 16317
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:54 am

I would like to say this to all those heptathletes that are not crazy about doing the pole vault, either because the heptathlete is afraid of heights or other reasons. For decades male athletes have to perform the pole vault in order to be a multi-event athlete. That means that those who are afraid of heights so much as not to pole vault have to give up being a decathlete. I know that it's a blow to those heptathletes who don't want to pole vault that they can't be decathletes but for the sake of women's advancement in track and field that is one sacrifice that is going to be made. Heptathletes can still participate in more that one event (i.e. the 100 meters and the shot put) if they want to.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:11 pm

As I noted in the hurdle-height comments, I was at the Wisconsin meet tonight and talking with the head coach and others (this lot has a lot of multi experience). I asked the question about the decathlon and they immediately and universally said that it is only a matter of time. In general, I got the sense that they thought the 'time' aspect was not real long.
26mi235
 
Posts: 16317
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby gh » Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:25 pm

Unforutnately, U.S. collegiate coaches have little/no vote on the matter.
gh
 
Posts: 46321
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:14 am

gh wrote:Unforutnately, U.S. collegiate coaches have little/no vote on the matter.

Do you think athletic directors would have a vote on including women's decathlon in their program? Or does it require the presidents of the colleges and universities to approve it?
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:56 am

I am bumping this topic. I would like others to see this topic.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby pauluk63 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:39 am

I would love women to do the decathlon, I believe women have every bit the same capabilities as men! They do every other event and there seems no reason why they cant do the decathlon!
pauluk63
 
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:54 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Marlow » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:44 am

pauluk63 wrote:I would love women to do the decathlon, I believe women have every bit the same capabilities as men! They do every other event and there seems no reason why they cant do the decathlon!

I think a vast majority in T&F agree that the Dec is the correct way to go for many reasons, but there are also some in the sport who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, and they have effectively blocked its acceptance.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21081
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:32 pm

One problem is the women's side is 'thinner' then that men's side and in an 'event' like the multis it makes it harder to have a competitive field, as there are more holes in the natural make up of women that make it harder for them to cover the range of the decathlon. I am just thinking off of the top of my head, but with higher testosterone levels etc., it is easier for men. Having enough strength to do the Jav/Shot/Discus//Vault while being lean enough for the LJ, Hurdles, 800, HJ(!) etc. is a tall order for women. Look at how women manage the Hept now. Adding the Discus and the Vault makes it hard to have prowess in other events. Note that men HJs look much stronger than women HJs, who do HJ with height and grace. The deca conflicts might lead to a somewhat 'ugly' set of events. Not sure that this is the way to go, even though in general I have been pro decathlon in prior comments.

I make these comments to get discussion on a dimension of the issue I had not thought much about before.
26mi235
 
Posts: 16317
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:38 am

26mi235 wrote:One problem is the women's side is 'thinner' then that men's side and in an 'event' like the multis it makes it harder to have a competitive field, as there are more holes in the natural make up of women that make it harder for them to cover the range of the decathlon. I am just thinking off of the top of my head, but with higher testosterone levels etc., it is easier for men. Having enough strength to do the Jav/Shot/Discus//Vault while being lean enough for the LJ, Hurdles, 800, HJ(!) etc. is a tall order for women. Look at how women manage the Hept now. Adding the Discus and the Vault makes it hard to have prowess in other events. Note that men HJs look much stronger than women HJs, who do HJ with height and grace. The deca conflicts might lead to a somewhat 'ugly' set of events. Not sure that this is the way to go, even though in general I have been pro decathlon in prior comments.

I make these comments to get discussion on a dimension of the issue I had not thought much about before.


Interesting point. But the decathalon is for determining the best all-around athlete, not the leanest athlete. Besides there is a strength element to the heptathlon already with the shot put and the javalin throw so strenght is already an element for the hepathlete. Also the women will be using lighter throwing implements than men.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Gabriella » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:09 am

26mi235 wrote:..there are more holes in the natural make up of women that make it harder for them to cover the range of the decathlon. I am just thinking off of the top of my head, but with higher testosterone levels etc., it is easier for men. Having enough strength to do the Jav/Shot/Discus//Vault while being lean enough for the LJ, Hurdles, 800, HJ(!) etc. is a tall order for women. Look at how women manage the Hept now. Adding the Discus and the Vault makes it hard to have prowess in other events.


I don't mean to be rude, but that's all a load of nonsense. There's absolutely no physical reason why women cannot do decathlons and no evidence to show that it would be 'harder' for them.

As to whether adding the PV and DT will make a difference to the type of women that will do the event; in theory it may mean the average height & weight goes up slightly. However, the top ten women of all time average around 1.78/5'10" in height and 65+kg (around 150llbs) in weight, so I don't see this changing significantly.

The spread of events in the decathlon, even though still not ideal, is a better measure of true all round greatness than the heptathlon, which is too speed orientated.
Gabriella
 
Posts: 1681
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:59 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby az2004 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:22 am

the pole vault, by itself, is a shallow sport, depthwise...

any multi female coul;d gain a huge edge if even marginally competent in the event

so lets do the mens events...

which usa collegians would benefit..

would fountain be hurt or helped by it

200 becomes 400
800 becomes 1500

add discus, pv and 100

hurdles....AH, why not have the women do 110, instead of 100 h
az2004
 
Posts: 3131
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:30 am

Gabriella wrote:I don't mean to be rude, but that's all a load of nonsense.


I think that there are likely to be a lot of 'ugly' vaults. For the men, even those doing only 4.00m are vaulting using normal form and almost all semi-world-class deca men (e.g., 7500) are vaulting closer to 4.50 or higher. Even after an adjustment/learning period, you will likely get a lot of 3m or even lower vaults and they rarely look 'normal' because the vaulting mechanics are different at that height. It is my impression that the JV is has the poorest mechanics and looks ugliest for the women's Hept -- the vault will likely make it look better in comparison.

This, of course, is just a guess and, as I said above, I have not thought through all of this, it just occurred to me once the thread started (and Gabriella has better knowledge/insight/familiarity/... etc then I can bring to this discussion) and I have generally been in favor of a decathlon for women.
26mi235
 
Posts: 16317
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:05 pm

26mi235 wrote:
Gabriella wrote:I don't mean to be rude, but that's all a load of nonsense.


I think that there are likely to be a lot of 'ugly' vaults. For the men, even those doing only 4.00m are vaulting using normal form and almost all semi-world-class deca men (e.g., 7500) are vaulting closer to 4.50 or higher. Even after an adjustment/learning period, you will likely get a lot of 3m or even lower vaults and they rarely look 'normal' because the vaulting mechanics are different at that height. It is my impression that the JV is has the poorest mechanics and looks ugliest for the women's Hept -- the vault will likely make it look better in comparison.

This, of course, is just a guess and, as I said above, I have not thought through all of this, it just occurred to me once the thread started (and Gabriella has better knowledge/insight/familiarity/... etc then I can bring to this discussion) and I have generally been in favor of a decathlon for women.


I don't believe that women should be denied the opportunity to participate in the decathlon, especially in the Olympics, just because certain events are not aesthetically pleasing to certain spectators.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Daisy » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:12 pm

Marlow wrote:some in the sport who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo

I'm not very good at reading between the lines. Who gains from keeping the hept? The only people I can think of are the current crop of athletes who would suddenly have to get proficient at pole vaulting. But it sounds like you're talking about suits?
Daisy
 
Posts: 13153
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:02 am

ralmcg wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
Gabriella wrote:I don't mean to be rude, but that's all a load of nonsense.


I think that there are likely to be a lot of 'ugly' vaults. For the men, even those doing only 4.00m are vaulting using normal form and almost all semi-world-class deca men (e.g., 7500) are vaulting closer to 4.50 or higher. Even after an adjustment/learning period, you will likely get a lot of 3m or even lower vaults and they rarely look 'normal' because the vaulting mechanics are different at that height. It is my impression that the JV is has the poorest mechanics and looks ugliest for the women's Hept -- the vault will likely make it look better in comparison.

This, of course, is just a guess and, as I said above, I have not thought through all of this, it just occurred to me once the thread started (and Gabriella has better knowledge/insight/familiarity/... etc then I can bring to this discussion) and I have generally been in favor of a decathlon for women.


I don't believe that women should be denied the opportunity to participate in the decathlon, especially in the Olympics, just because certain events are not aesthetically pleasing to certain spectators.


You seem to arguing with a non-existent conclusion (by me) that they should not do the decathlon; I never stated such a conclusion. Rather, why not discuss what the competition would look like, the pluses and minuses of doing the decathlon.
26mi235
 
Posts: 16317
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:22 am

26mi235 wrote:
ralmcg wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
I think that there are likely to be a lot of 'ugly' vaults. For the men, even those doing only 4.00m are vaulting using normal form and almost all semi-world-class deca men (e.g., 7500) are vaulting closer to 4.50 or higher. Even after an adjustment/learning period, you will likely get a lot of 3m or even lower vaults and they rarely look 'normal' because the vaulting mechanics are different at that height. It is my impression that the JV is has the poorest mechanics and looks ugliest for the women's Hept -- the vault will likely make it look better in comparison.

This, of course, is just a guess and, as I said above, I have not thought through all of this, it just occurred to me once the thread started (and Gabriella has better knowledge/insight/familiarity/... etc then I can bring to this discussion) and I have generally been in favor of a decathlon for women.


I don't believe that women should be denied the opportunity to participate in the decathlon, especially in the Olympics, just because certain events are not aesthetically pleasing to certain spectators.


You seem to arguing with a non-existent conclusion (by me) that they should not do the decathlon; I never stated such a conclusion. Rather, why not discuss what the competition would look like, the pluses and minuses of doing the decathlon.


Others might discuss this better than me. But I would say that the "ugliness" of the competition is in the eye of the beholder. Also, even though you and I are in favor of women's decathlon, there were times when events were not deemed good for women to participate because of the excuse of the events not "pretty". One possible example on top of my head is the shot put since it requires strength.
Last edited by ralmcg on Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby az2004 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:16 am

go watch a hs meet that has girls pv...

it's NOT even the same event as the elite female pv...

i think there'd be a huge variation in scores, with basic proficiency in pv needed to medal

how long would it take for hepsters to get acclimated to PV???

how loing is the transition period??

2016 rio??
az2004
 
Posts: 3131
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby James Fields » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:54 am

Women's Decathlon has been in USA governing body rulebook (first TAC, later USATF) for 20 years although not in NCAA rulebook until 2006 -- but seemingly lacks a steady increase in the number of scheduled competition opportunities comparable to women's hammer, pole vault, and steeplechase during the same era.
James Fields
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Knoxville and Seattle

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Gabriella » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:31 am

There's no physical reason why women cannot do a decathlon like men, period. Thus the discussion is around whether the event should be introduced, how to convince stick-in-the-muds it's the way forward and how we do the transition.

The fact that women can (and have!) do decathlons answers the first question; it should be introduced at some point. How to convince opponents is always going to be tricky when a lot of elite heptathletes have spoken out against the event. A 28 yr old elite heptathlete at her peak is not going to want to do the decathlon, but a 28 yr old heptathlete is not the future. I would suggest the event is introduced from the 'bottom up', start with junior events and gradually phase senior events in, thus allowing the current crop of stars to peter out their careers in the heptathlon. It took a while for the TJ and PT to establish themselves but we get there eventually.

Re the 100mh/110mh, the reason for that is the height difference between men and women. However, the taller heptathletes do sometimes have trouble chopping their strides. Perhaps a 105mh for the women's multievents should be introduced :P
But they need the same events as the men per se, and in the same order.
Gabriella
 
Posts: 1681
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:59 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby PCSExponent » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:46 am

Gabriella wrote:Re the 100mh/110mh, the reason for that is the height difference between men and women. However, the taller heptathletes do sometimes have trouble chopping their strides.


Can you give any examples?
PCSExponent
 
Posts: 352
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:31 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:15 am

One issue about order is that it complicates doing men's and women's events at the same time. One solution is to start them offset either by a day or by several hours, but maybe it would work to have the intervals between events (hurdles) small). The questions are for the jav and discus where the same field is needed (getting multiple HJ pits is easier).
26mi235
 
Posts: 16317
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby mump boy » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:23 am

26mi235 wrote:One issue about order is that it complicates doing men's and women's events at the same time. One solution is to start them offset either by a day or by several hours, but maybe it would work to have the intervals between events (hurdles) small). The questions are for the jav and discus where the same field is needed (getting multiple HJ pits is easier).


why would you do them at the same time ?

it would be a logistical nightmare
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:45 am

Gabriella wrote:There's no physical reason why women cannot do a decathlon like men, period. Thus the discussion is around whether the event should be introduced, how to convince stick-in-the-muds it's the way forward and how we do the transition.

The fact that women can (and have!) do decathlons answers the first question; it should be introduced at some point. How to convince opponents is always going to be tricky when a lot of elite heptathletes have spoken out against the event. A 28 yr old elite heptathlete at her peak is not going to want to do the decathlon, but a 28 yr old heptathlete is not the future. I would suggest the event is introduced from the 'bottom up', start with junior events and gradually phase senior events in, thus allowing the current crop of stars to peter out their careers in the heptathlon. It took a while for the TJ and PT to establish themselves but we get there eventually.

Re the 100mh/110mh, the reason for that is the height difference between men and women. However, the taller heptathletes do sometimes have trouble chopping their strides. Perhaps a 105mh for the women's multievents should be introduced :P
But they need the same events as the men per se, and in the same order.


Introducing the women's decathlon from the "bottom up" is well and good but there also needs to be a little push from the top down to get the ball rolling. The IOC and the IAAF should set a firm date for the introduction of the women's decathlon in the World Championships and the Olympics. I would suggest the 2016 Olympics but it might be too abrupt so I would certainly make the 2020 Olympics the starting date for women's decathlon. I would also suggest at least the 2019 World Championships as the introductory one for women's decathlon if not sooner.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Powell » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:05 am

mump boy wrote:
26mi235 wrote:One issue about order is that it complicates doing men's and women's events at the same time. One solution is to start them offset either by a day or by several hours, but maybe it would work to have the intervals between events (hurdles) small). The questions are for the jav and discus where the same field is needed (getting multiple HJ pits is easier).


why would you do them at the same time ?

it would be a logistical nightmare


I guess we are talking about multis-only events, like Gotzis or European Cup, where it can't be avoided.

A simple solution would be to have a different order of events for the women. Say, keep the 1500 at the end (not a good idea to have it on day 1), but otherwise switch the events between day 1 and day 2. The program for the women would thus be 100H-DT-PV-JT-400-100-LJ-SP-HJ-1500.
Powell
 
Posts: 9063
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Vanuatu

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby az2004 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:16 am

olympic history would be very different if a 90 H was the distance..

i think the JUNIOR level is where you'd start...

say 2014 for example...then the senior level at 2020

current colege hepsters might want to hang around..

theisen is 22, so would be 31 by then almost an oldster..

krais is only 20 still, so she'd just have turned 30..

the option is throw them in the deep end and see what happens
az2004
 
Posts: 3131
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Powell » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:42 am

az2004 wrote:i think the JUNIOR level is where you'd start...

say 2014 for example...then the senior level at 2020


OK, so you're 19 years old in 2014, you win the world junior title in the decathlon, and then have to forget about PV and DT for the next 5 years? Doesn't make much sense to me.

IMO you should give plenty of advance warning - at least 5 years, possibly even closer to 10 - but once they switch, they ought to switch to decathlon at all levels of competition.
Powell
 
Posts: 9063
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Vanuatu

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby DecFan » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:01 pm

Powell wrote:IMO you should give plenty of advance warning - at least 5 years, possibly even closer to 10 - but once they switch, they ought to switch to decathlon at all levels of competition.


I think this is on the right track, but I would still phase it in over a brief period of time, in the middle of the Olympic cycle: 2018 World Junior Championships, 2019 World Championships, 2020 OG. In this scenario, the 2018 Europeans would be the last major heptathlon championship.

An announcement this year would not affect any present heptathletes in a major championship for 8 years. Younger athletes would have plenty of time to adapt.
DecFan
 
Posts: 1409
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:47 pm

The IAAF should announce the replacement of the women's heptathlon with the women's decathlon, hopefully this year. They should say this is the way forward for equality between men and women in track and field.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby El Toro » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:57 pm

I don't know how many of you have actually coached combined events and pole vault - it seems not too many. While, as somebody noted, there is no reason women physically couldn't do a decathlon, you really wouldn't like the outcome.

The heptathlon (and decathlon) currently have very little depth worldwide let alone within each country. If it is hard enough to get females with runner physiques to commit to 7 events, think how hard it will be to recruit women with the additional superstructure required for competent pole vaulting. Especially given that if a woman can handle the pole vault she may as well exploit the poor depth in PV and have the potential to earn some money or just be local or national champion.

I don't want to see WC finals with the 8 women worldwide good enough to avoid mockery in pole vault just for the sake of gender purity. Even worse, I don't think anybody wants to watch national titles where the HJ standards are brought out to ensure somebody can clear a height - it's bad enough watching men below international standard. I think some of you underestimate just how much talent you need to be competent in ten events. There is not much of it about.

The decathlon will also compound the inequities between rich and poor nations, where the latter may be able to support the simple needs of a heptathlete but will not have the resources to be able to add PV to the equation. You can already see this effect in PV itself.

As for the order of events, the current WDec is ordered to avoid clashes with MDec so that they can both be run over the same two days. There is no need to go proposing new solutions to a problem that has been solved.

In case you think my views arise from not wanting women to run more than 200m to protect their fertility, I fully endorse realistic heights for both hurdles
El Toro
 
Posts: 903
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:57 am

El Toro wrote:I don't know how many of you have actually coached combined events and pole vault - it seems not too many. While, as somebody noted, there is no reason women physically couldn't do a decathlon, you really wouldn't like the outcome.

The heptathlon (and decathlon) currently have very little depth worldwide let alone within each country. If it is hard enough to get females with runner physiques to commit to 7 events, think how hard it will be to recruit women with the additional superstructure required for competent pole vaulting. Especially given that if a woman can handle the pole vault she may as well exploit the poor depth in PV and have the potential to earn some money or just be local or national champion.

I don't want to see WC finals with the 8 women worldwide good enough to avoid mockery in pole vault just for the sake of gender purity. Even worse, I don't think anybody wants to watch national titles where the HJ standards are brought out to ensure somebody can clear a height - it's bad enough watching men below international standard. I think some of you underestimate just how much talent you need to be competent in ten events. There is not much of it about.

The decathlon will also compound the inequities between rich and poor nations, where the latter may be able to support the simple needs of a heptathlete but will not have the resources to be able to add PV to the equation. You can already see this effect in PV itself.

As for the order of events, the current WDec is ordered to avoid clashes with MDec so that they can both be run over the same two days. There is no need to go proposing new solutions to a problem that has been solved.

In case you think my views arise from not wanting women to run more than 200m to protect their fertility, I fully endorse realistic heights for both hurdles


You have some interesting points. However saying that the talent pool of women athletes was too shallow was probably an excuse some people used to deny women the opportunity to compete. If given the opportunity to compete the talent pool for women decathletes should in time be deeper than it is now.

As for the gap between rich and poor countries as a result of introducing the pole vault, one way of lessening the gap is for the IAAF to use some of the money it has and invest in pole vault equipment for each country who needs it. Not all clubs will have pole vault equipment and there are some issues about women competing in some countries but lacking pole vault and other track and field equipment should not be an excuse for not competing in the women's decathlon if there is money and it is spent wisely.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby az2004 » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:10 am

as a general rule, i think ANY male sport has more depth than any FEMALE sport..

i'm all for feamle sports, but in the usa. college legislation has been the boon for females...

it's very rare to see a female revenue bearing sport, it's the exception rather than the rule..

still, i'm all in favor for advancement..

for track, take the top 100 lists an look at the variation from male to female sport..

the pv is a special sport, as in the specialist version, it's still an emerging sport..

and the pv for men, seems LESS deep than other events...

i do think starting in 2014 at world juniors is where i'd start..

the question becomes, do you do 2015 beijng at the first senior level..

i'd hate to do 2016 rio, and olympics game as an experiment..

maybe 2017 and 2019 worlds..

2014 JUNIORS, the number of them actually being able to make 2016, it's the exceptional junior who could in 2 years
az2004
 
Posts: 3131
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:43 am

I have read many excuses, potential or otherwise, for not having the women's decathlon at the World Championships and at the Olympics, e.g. the talent pool is too shallow, it will be too disruptive for present heptathletes, there is no national championships for women's decathlon. In my opinion it all boils down to the lack of will on the part of the national athletic federations and the IAAF to cause women's decathlon to go forward. Instead of waiting for the athletes and federations to make things happen why can't the IAAF lead and decide on a defininte date for the women's decathlon to be part of the World Championships. But to make it more palable for current athletes the first WC with women's decathlon should not occur until 2019, which should be plenty of time for women to train for decathlon instead of the heptathlon. Also women's decathlon should be introduced at the 2020 Olympics.

On second thought being too disruptive for present heptathletes is an excuse for not having the women's decathlon at the World Championships and the Olympics, at least in the near future. However, it should not be an excuse for the future.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:05 am

ralmcg wrote:I have read many excuses, potential or otherwise, for not having the women's decathlon at the World Championships and at the Olympics, e.g. ..


I take exception to this. Having a discussion of the issues and pointing out that there are problematic aspects of going to the decathlon is not "excuses..." To whom am I making excuses and for what am I making excuses.

You have a conclusion but no debate (in this post), just the strong statement that others with other opinions or even thoughts about some of the downsides are 'making excuses'. Most of the time the 'pro' positions seem to be unwilling to actually discuss this (there are exceptions, and some have discussion in some posts and just conclusions in others).
26mi235
 
Posts: 16317
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:05 pm

26mi235 wrote:
ralmcg wrote:I have read many excuses, potential or otherwise, for not having the women's decathlon at the World Championships and at the Olympics, e.g. ..


I take exception to this. Having a discussion of the issues and pointing out that there are problematic aspects of going to the decathlon is not "excuses..." To whom am I making excuses and for what am I making excuses.

You have a conclusion but no debate (in this post), just the strong statement that others with other opinions or even thoughts about some of the downsides are 'making excuses'. Most of the time the 'pro' positions seem to be unwilling to actually discuss this (there are exceptions, and some have discussion in some posts and just conclusions in others).


I will give you that there are some problems with going the decathlon route e.g. gap between rich and poor countries, lack of depth of competitors. I hope these problems will be seen as challenges to be solved.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby lonewolf » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:15 pm

"If you build it they will come>"
If the decathlon is added cold turkey to women's T&F, the athletes will come and improve over time. I don't think we are obligated to preserve the status quo for current athletes or worry about how many women (of out millions/billions) have the ideal body type to be decathletes.
lonewolf
 
Posts: 8814
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Indian Territory

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:45 am

It's been a while since anybody was posting on this topic. I want to ask the people on this board whether or not a multi-event contest with the pole vault is inferior to one without it. If so, then the women's decathlon, with the pole vault, should replace the heptathlon as the women's premier multi-event contest in track and field. Related to this question could you see Nataliya Dobrynska, Tatyana Chernova, and Jessica Ennis pole vault. With the proper training and talent I could see them do a decent pole vault. They don't have to vault four meters in order to be called decent.
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby Marlow » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:25 am

ralmcg wrote:the women's decathlon, with the pole vault, should replace the heptathlon as the women's premier multi-event contest in track and field.

I've been saying this for over 10 years!!!! The reason it isn't happening is because there are too many 'have-not' countries (with IAAF voting cards) that don't think they can keep up with the 'haves' in terms of resources to support the PV being added.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21081
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Women to compete in decathlon?

Postby ralmcg » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:52 am

Marlow wrote:
ralmcg wrote:the women's decathlon, with the pole vault, should replace the heptathlon as the women's premier multi-event contest in track and field.

I've been saying this for over 10 years!!!! The reason it isn't happening is because there are too many 'have-not' countries (with IAAF voting cards) that don't think they can keep up with the 'haves' in terms of resources to support the PV being added.

Which begs the question. If the "have-not" countries can't support the pole vault why didn't they introduce and vote on the pole vault being removed from the men's multi-event?
ralmcg
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:30 am

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Dave and 13 guests