Tergat WR


Main message board: for the discussion of topical track & field items only.

Tergat WR

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:17 am

Let's not forget:
1. Khalid has more CHICAGO wins than Tergat has major wins.
2. Khalid is 2-0 against Tergat
3. Marathon conditions and courses are different and head to head records are far more important than PR times.
4 Even in standardized distances, head to head is still far more important.
5. I think calling Tergat a better marathoner than Khalid is, at best, considerably premature.
6. Khalid is not getting the respect that he deserves because he is American, not Kenyan, not a high altitude trainer etc..etc..
7. It was the same prior to the London marathon when Tergat and Geb debutted...who won that race handily?
Guest
 

Re: Tergat WR

Postby MJD » Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:32 am

>Let's not forget:
1. Khalid has more CHICAGO
>wins than Tergat has major wins.
2. Khalid is
>2-0 against Tergat
3. Marathon conditions and
>courses are different and head to head records
>are far more important than PR times.
4 Even in
>standardized distances, head to head is still far
>more important.
5. I think calling Tergat a
>better marathoner than Khalid is, at best,
>considerably premature.
6. Khalid is not getting
>the respect that he deserves because he is
>American, not Kenyan, not a high altitude trainer
>etc..etc..
7. It was the same prior to the
>London marathon when Tergat and Geb
>debutted...who won that race handily?

You seem to be protesting to much. Who exactly is praising Tergat's performance at the expense of KK? No one on this site anyway.
MJD
 
Posts: 13402
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Tergat WR

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:32 am

Excellent points, all.
Guest
 

Re: Tergat WR

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:16 am

To MJD
I was protesting other sources (The NY Times) calling Tergat "a favorite to accomplish what no Kenyan ever has in the marathon-winning an Olympic Gold Mdeal."
I have not in fact seen anything on this sight ...
Guest
 

Re: Tergat WR

Postby MJD » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:26 am

>To MJD
I was protesting other sources (The NY
>Times) calling Tergat "a favorite to accomplish
>what no Kenyan ever has in the marathon-winning
>an Olympic Gold Mdeal."

Here is the article which requires registration. Only KK's agent could be upset about the article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/29/sport ... athon.html

You can't win with this crowd. NYT devoted 13 paragraphs which is the complaint on another thread-no press.

The article said he is a favourite not the favourite. That is not an inaccurate statement.

KK gets mentioned 4 times.

One last point. XC sure didn't hurt this distance runner.
MJD
 
Posts: 13402
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Tergat WR

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 29, 2003 11:58 am

I agree with MJD. You doth protest too much. KK is obviously a fabulous talent. And we're all pleased that Tergat has "finally" lived up to the marathon potential we assumed was there. We all look forward to seeing them meet when they're both in top form.
Guest
 

Re: Tergat WR

Postby Pego » Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:13 pm

A question for the Neuropsychiatry. How many times exactly has KK represented the USA at the major championships (WC, OG)? He reminds me of some tennis players (Jimmy Connors, Ivan Lendl), always fit for the tournaments, always "injured" for the Davis Cup. Have I opened the Pandora's box?
Pego
 
Posts: 10202
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: Tergat WR

Postby MJD » Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:28 pm

>A question for the Neuropsychiatry. How many
>times exactly has KK represented the USA at the
>major championships (WC, OG)? He reminds me of
>some tennis players (Jimmy Connors, Ivan Lendl),
>always fit for the tournaments, always
>"injured" for the Davis Cup. Have I opened the
>Pandora's box?

The worst it can be is a money thing and so what if it is. Last I looked capitilism has won the day. If he completely changed his focus, these races would cost him his year and then where does he earn his money? A win in the OG or WC 100 meter immediately gives you instant
marketability and you can show up at a meet the following week(same with the Davis Cup). Not so in the marathon. This guy has basically come up from nothing. Who is anyone else to demand he represent his adopted country when the cost is so prohibitive?
MJD
 
Posts: 13402
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Tergat WR

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:29 pm

>To MJD
I was protesting other sources (The NY
>Times) calling Tergat "a favorite to accomplish
>what no Kenyan ever has in the marathon-winning
>an Olympic Gold Mdeal."
I have not in fact seen
>anything on this sight ...>

Are you saying that Tergat isn't 'a favorite' for the marathon Olympic Gold Medal?
Guest
 

Re: Tergat WR

Postby Pego » Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:05 pm

<Who is anyone else to demand he represent his adopted country when the cost is so prohibitive?>

Is it really? Aren't you supposed to give something to your adoptive country that offers you opportunities? By the way, I AM an immigrant to the US.
Pego
 
Posts: 10202
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: Tergat WR

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:08 pm

Is Tergat a favorite?..maybe...maybe not..I would would put my money on KK or Abera or others before TErgat. Does Tergat have potential?..of couse...but I think the assumptions I FEEL are being implied by the NYT are a bit premature...that is all I am saying...

Should Ronaldo De Costa have been a favorite in Sydney 2000 marathon?

THank you MJD for responding for me. Marathon racing has become a sport like world class cycling, and tennis where Olympic and WC medals may not necessarily reflect or affect the World Records more than Chicago. Olympic medals may not be the best refelction of who is the best...at least inthose sports
Guest
 

Re: Tergat WR

Postby bubba » Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:10 pm

He did run in Edmonton and is planning (first you have to make the team) on running in Athens. Right now he's run 50% of the major champs marathons for which he's been eligible.
bubba
 
Posts: 205
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:30 am

Re: Tergat WR

Postby MJD » Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:30 pm

>Is Tergat a favorite?..maybe...maybe not..I would
>would put my money on KK or Abera or others
>before TErgat. Does Tergat have potential?..of
>couse...but I think the assumptions I FEEL are
>being implied by the NYT are a bit
>premature...that is all I am saying...

Tergat is "A" favourite. That can't be diputed. So you can't quibble with the NYT there. You are just saying that you don't think that he is "THE" favourite.
MJD
 
Posts: 13402
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Tergat WR

Postby MJD » Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:35 pm

><Who is anyone else to demand he represent his
>adopted country when the cost is so
>prohibitive?>

Is it really? Aren't you
>supposed to give something to your adoptive
>country that offers you opportunities? By the
>way, I AM an immigrant to the US.

Who made up that rule? Some may think so but so what if he doesn't? He is clearly trying to represent his country as indicated by the post above anyway. All I am saying is that even "if" he doesn't for monetary reasons, you can't really blame him.
MJD
 
Posts: 13402
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Tergat WR

Postby miler manque » Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:33 pm

The guy who gets the world best deserves all the credit and praise in the world. That's why there are world bests -- to see who's ever run the fastest -- and whoever is on top, for whatever reason, gets to shine. Sorry, that's not KK right now. It's Tergat's time to shine -- finally. He always seemed like a nice guy to me, I'm glad he's finally done something indisputably great.

KK would dearly love to win the Olympics and/or Worlds. Beyond the glory, an Olympics win would mean great and lasting commercial success for him, better than a one-time payday from a single race. So it's a good selfish goal for KK commercially, as well as to "give something back."

Of all the events, the marathon is the hardest to pick a winner. Too many unknowns, too difficult a race, too many great competitors at the Olympic level. At best there could never be less than 5, maybe 10 "favorites." Absent injury, KK and Tergat are among them --
miler manque
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Tergat WR

Postby MJD » Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:15 pm

KK would dearly love to win the
>Olympics and/or Worlds. Beyond the glory, an
>Olympics win would mean great and lasting
>commercial success for him, better than a
>one-time payday from a single race

Show me the money. That is an assumption. First of all, name all the Olympic marathon champs since 1984 and now tell me where I can see their financial disclosures.
MJD
 
Posts: 13402
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Tergat WR

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:29 pm

Tergat will not win the Olympics. Neither will KK. It will be some darkhorse out of N. Africa, Europe or Asia this time around. IF drug testing continues to improve. If not, then look for a romp from the Kenyans or Ethiopians, but Tergat will still lose.
Guest
 

Re: Tergat WR

Postby Guest » Tue Sep 30, 2003 6:00 am

I am sure Tergat is a gentleman, as is KK...KK has appeared at the NY marathon Expo a couple of times. My comment was more directed at the public who seem to be biased against runners of certain backgrounds.....

If running the "World Best" is that important important...where was Patrick Johnson during the WC.
Guest
 

Re: Tergat WR

Postby miler manque » Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:51 am

Show me the money. That is an
>assumption. First of all, name all the Olympic
>marathon champs since 1984 and now tell me where
>I can see their financial disclosures.

The difference is that KK is now an American. The other Oly marathon champs were foreign since 1972, and no, I don't know if they were able to capitalize (my guess is yes, in their countries, they are probably extraordinarily well-compensated heroes for life.) An American Olympic marathon champ? That would be huge. It's kept Frank Shorter in the green for many years -- and might mean even more $$ today in endorsements. (Though I think KK might have to overcome a bias against immigrants --)
miler manque
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Tergat WR

Postby Guest » Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:57 am

If running the
>"World Best" is that important
>important...where was Patrick Johnson during the
>WC.

Just because Patrick Johnson ran a "world leading" time in the 100m early in the season and didn't produce at the WC, doesn't mean a "world best" in an event such as the marathon is not significant or important.
Guest
 

Re: Tergat WR

Postby MJD » Tue Sep 30, 2003 9:16 am

>It's kept Frank Shorter in the green for many
>years

That's an assumption on a par with speculating about drugs. There is no proof. I've always got the impression that BR never really made th big time but that is all it is, an impression. In my business I see people faking and making it all the time. A lot of Kenyans are set for life from one season of running on the roads in America. They don't need a medal.
MJD
 
Posts: 13402
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Tergat WR

Postby Guest » Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:53 am

>>Is Tergat a favorite?..maybe...maybe not..I
>would
>would put my money on KK or Abera or
>others
>before TErgat. Does Tergat have
>potential?..of
>couse...but I think the
>assumptions I FEEL are
>being implied by the NYT
>are a bit
>premature...that is all I am
>saying...

Tergat is "A" favourite. That
>can't be diputed. So you can't quibble with the
>NYT there. You are just saying that you don't
>think that he is "THE" favourite.>

Which is not what the NYT is saying.
Guest
 

Re: Tergat WR

Postby MJD » Tue Sep 30, 2003 11:48 am

>Tergat is "A" favourite.
>That
>can't be disputed. So you can't quibble
>with the
>NYT there. You are just saying that
>you don't
>think that he is "THE"
>favourite.>

Which is not what the NYT is
>saying.

That was the point I was making.
MJD
 
Posts: 13402
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Tergat WR

Postby miler manque » Wed Oct 01, 2003 1:07 pm

>>It's kept Frank Shorter in the green for
>many
>years

That's an assumption on a par
>with speculating about drugs. There is no proof.
>I've always got the impression that BR never
>really made th big time but that is all it is, an
>impression. In my business I see people faking
>and making it all the time. A lot of Kenyans are
>set for life from one season of running on the
>roads in America. They don't need a medal.

Of course I wasn't talking about Bill Rodgers, who never won an Olympic gold, and probably has had to hustle to make money. I wasn't talking about Kenyans, who no doubt can get very rich for life from relatively modest sums won racing.
The question for KK is whether he will benefit more financially from winning Olympic gold than from a big marathon. If he goes for Olympic gold, he has to focus on that and give up prize money from other races, at least temporarily; and his victory would mean riches will come from endorsements and future recognition rather than prize money. If he is looking coldly at this from only a financial point of view, he would throw into the calculation the perhaps longer odds of victory in the Olympic marathon. Since the Olympics falls only in one year, I'd guess he'll figure that he has a chance to make more riches from winning the gold than from a single race, and he can sacrifice one year's prize money for the potential of greater income coming from Olympic recognition. And of course there's the glory --
miler manque
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Tergat WR

Postby Guest » Wed Oct 01, 2003 1:20 pm

Ahnold's success aside, immigrants with accents don't do well in the U.S. when it comes to making anything but "direct money." A gold for KK would accrue virtually no benefit. He's far better off--in terms of bucks--being a road whore.
Guest
 

Re: Tergat WR

Postby miler manque » Wed Oct 01, 2003 1:28 pm

>Ahnold's success aside, immigrants with accents
>don't do well in the U.S. when it comes to making
>anything but "direct money." A gold for KK
>would accrue virtually no benefit. He's far
>better off--in terms of bucks--being a road
>whore.


I agree about the difficulties immigrants face. It would take marketing skills, but it's not impossible that he could be big. Athletes of many colors score big in the U.S.
KK will surely get more appearance-fee money as Olympic champ. And he only has to give up 1, maybe 2 races to go for the Olympics.
miler manque
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Tergat WR

Postby MJD » Wed Oct 01, 2003 1:58 pm

>KK will surely get more appearance-fee
>money as Olympic champ. And he only has to give
>up 1, maybe 2 races to go for the Olympics.

Ignoring the glory aspect which I am not minimizing but it is just so subjective, let us assume that a gold is worth 1 million and let's further assume that he has a 10% chance of winning it. The marathon can be very cruel. I don't know if that % is accurate but I am just using it for purposes of the calculation. He would compare 10% of 1 million to the certainty of appearance money at 2 races and a % of the prize money level of the each of the top positions at the 2 races he is running.
MJD
 
Posts: 13402
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Tergat WR

Postby Pego » Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:28 pm

I am not sure, but I think that the "immigrant baggage" is being exagerated here. Was Sidney Maree discriminated against? Or Meb?
Pego
 
Posts: 10202
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: Tergat WR

Postby miler manque » Wed Oct 01, 2003 5:59 pm

First, I think KK will go for the glory; after all, it's got to be a major motivation for him. But looking just at the financial part of it, I think on balance he'll think it a good investment. While surely the Olympics is more chancy than Chicago, winning a big non-Oly race is no sure thing either. He could cramp, suffer injury, be out of the prize money. The attention he'd get in the run-up to the Olympics (cover of SI? T&F News?) would be invaluable to him in establishing a name beyond the narrow world of track nuts.
miler manque
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Tergat WR

Postby Guest » Wed Oct 01, 2003 6:52 pm

>>Tergat is "A" favourite.
>That
>can't be
>disputed. So you can't quibble
>with the
>NYT
>there. You are just saying that
>you
>don't
>think that he is
>"THE"
>favourite.>

Which is not what the
>NYT is
>saying.

That was the point I was
>making.>

Which I fully understood. Maybe if we beat into the Neuro guy he'll get it.

jd
Guest
 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: DCSIGMA and 13 guests