Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA


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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:10 pm

>BTW, the French
>distance runners we have seen
>don't sound like
>Frenchmen to me. France is
>probably importing
>their runners.

What the
>Americans are allowed to have immigrants but
>France is not?

Chouki and Baala were both BORN IN FRANCE!
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:48 pm

The problem is the
>system overcomplicates the simple. College
>coaches recruit athletes and pay their tuition so
>that the athlete can earn points for the school.
>Unfortunately this pressure to perform now and
>for the next four years gets in the way of the
>progressive development outlined by Ray.

I
>know Irv was working with and advising Ryan Hall
>I don't know if Ryan is planning to go back with
>Irv or if he will be once again running for
>Stanford. It is tough for a kid. Ryan is a
>perfect example (with Irv) of a kid on a long
>term plan who gets caught up in the college
>system. If Hall would have stuck with Irv I
>beleive the last two years would have produced
>much better results and we likely would have had
>a kid running under 3:40
>consistently.

Unfortunately Hall doesn't have
>the opportunity Webb does and he may feel an
>eductation at Stanford is worth sacrificing his
>long term running success. It is a dilemma. I
>don't have a simple solution.

If I were a kid
>with talent coming out today I'd choose a low key
>program with a knowledgeable coach. NAIA, D2 or
>D3. I think Steve Scott will be a great coach if
>he can get some talent to work with - he has the
>knowledge, experience and is extremely
>personable. Kids really like him.

Thanks Cyril,
Very informative. Seems like someone in charge needs to kick a few butts and change the whole system.

You seem to be right in your last paragraph - a low key Ray/Benson program. Problem is the loud mouth coaches who are chasing success for themselves or schools will fill kids heads with garbage - so really need to get in early and keep the kid away from the system.

Is it possible for a kid to ignore competing for their school and just train and study in an independant fassion? Correspondence training can be very effective.

In Kenya they do not judge a school by its successes at school competitions - they judge it by how many world champions it has produced. Perhaps USA schools could start looking at that instead. Someone over there at least needs to be telling the school coaches that they are destroying talent and counter productive against producing elite seniors: perhaps from the head of USA T&F down - the message needs to get through.
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Randy Treadway » Sat Aug 30, 2003 8:20 pm

>n Kenya they do not judge a school by its successes at school competitions - they judge it by how many world champions it has produced. Perhaps USA schools could start looking at that instead.

That assumes that administrators in charge of schools (and their AD's) and those who have influence (alumni) VALUE world champions more than intercollegiate success. Most of them would say 'being a world champion is great- makes a fine footnote in the annual press guide- as long as you win conference and NCAA first- that is imperative and the top priority'.
I really don't think they CARE what USATF has to say.
Randy Treadway
 
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sat Aug 30, 2003 11:41 pm

YIKES!
Sorry, Run With The Best is dinosaur crap physiology at best, the epitome really of what is wrong w/ US distance running (that and maybe the plaid pants at an NCAA coaches meeting).

A stopwatch is used in track and field, not a sundial. Rehashed Lydiard did nothing for Ryan Hall who got pasted at the mile distance by a kid who ran half as many training miles. Why? How could it be? Gee, but Hall improved his 10 mile time and boy was his HR ever so low at 5:10 pace...

You better believe that speed matters far more than volume. Throw away the heart monitors and the antiquated mega mileage mindset and maybe just maybe our US distance runners will have a chance. You want a fleet of US <13 minute 5k runners? Lets get some more <335 1500 runners and stop training guys for the Western States.
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:03 am

>

YIKES!
Sorry, Run With The Best is dinosaur
>crap physiology at best, the epitome really of
>what is wrong w/ US distance running (that and
>maybe the plaid pants at an NCAA coaches
>meeting).

A stopwatch is used in track and
>field, not a sundial. Rehashed Lydiard did
>nothing for Ryan Hall who got pasted at the mile
>distance by a kid who ran half as many training
>miles. Why? How could it be? Gee, but Hall
>improved his 10 mile time and boy was his HR ever
>so low at 5:10 pace...

You better believe
>that speed matters far more than volume. Throw
>away the heart monitors and the antiquated mega
>mileage mindset and maybe just maybe our US
>distance runners will have a chance. You want a
>fleet of US <13 minute 5k runners? Lets get some
>more <335 1500 runners and stop training guys for
>the Western States.

Are you joking? Seriously?
Suggest you go and re-read the book - your ignorance of the clearest link I have ever seen presented between speed and stamina is truly astounding.
Suggest you read Cyril's comments re Hall.
Your statement about the two juniors highlights the very problem: people placing too much importance on junior results.
Now lets throw away mega milage hey: well if two athletes with the same basic speed are competing who will win: ummm the one with the highest stamina maybe, now where does stamina come from?????

Speed does not seem to be the problem in USA, as you have tons of athletes who are fast: but very few who can last till the last lap (of anything from 800m+) to show their speed. Do you think running sub 13:00 for last 5k of 10k does not require stamina?

Do you actually know the volumes that are being run by world leading/class athletes? Do you actually know what the African nations do in training? I do. I admit I know very little about your USA system, but I know it is not working and I do know the system that is working is based on Run With The Best principles: Speed+Stamina

I will leave it there and not comment any further on this issue. I have no connection with US athletics at all and was just trying to offer unbiased advice. You can ignore the advice, but thus far you've chosen to argue with points that support my statements, look like they've come straight from Run With The Best and other points that show your ignorance of dinosaur physiology???.
(Glad that Snell ran in the dinosaur ages and not now - I don't see too many americans beating his 1:44/800m solo on a grass football oval.)
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:38 am

<<Chouki and Baala were both BORN IN FRANCE!>>

If this is true then France is better than the US at distance running.
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:35 am

El Guerrouji's coach does not view cross country as a necessary development tool for a miler. He says while US college milers are participating in cross country, Guerouji is developing a base for the summer track season, which includes the weight room and interval track work outs. He also includes altitude training to build an aerobic base.

Maybe Alan Webb should take this advice. Drop the cross country gig now! You will just get injuried again. Webb's problems all started with his increased mileage during his first college cross country season.
Was Webb's first cross country season responsible for the loss of his 3:53 mile speed. You should not get slower in college.
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:23 am

><<Chouki and Baala were both BORN IN
>FRANCE!>>

If this is true then France is
>better than the US at distance running.>

Do you know ANYTHING about this sport?
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:43 am

Yes, I do.
The France are better distance runners.
I am merely stating a fact. To make a factual statement you don't even need to know much about the sport.

I really don't care what you think. Does anyone really take these message boards that seriously?
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:05 am

France and America are about equal in distance running.
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:23 am

Is France better than the US in distance running?

I HOPE NOT!!
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:25 pm

The physiology is Run With The Best is painfully flawed and hopelessly outdated. I could write all day about the mistakes and errors in that book, but it would take all day. Lydiard's ideas deserve a place in history, I'll grant that, but we can do very much better than that now.

ok,let's begin discussing the need or lack thereof for higher volume training.

Kipketer 800m WR was done w/ very low weekly volume. Snell did more miles in a weekend long run.

3:30 1500m has been accomplished by runners on
fewer than 50 miles/week. The common thread in top 1500m runners these days is 1' 500m speed. Without that, you can run 200 miles/week and you'll still get beaten.

Aouita and others ran <13 5k on 60/week. Even fewer miles than the first guy to break 14' for 5k. 3:50 milers moving up to the 5k changed the event. Kennedy
ran what, 70/week for his marks, and got no further improvements w/ mega mileage. McChesney ran an American born collegiate 5k record on 50miles/week.

Twenty years ago Steve Jones hit 2:07-2:08 on 80/week, and he was solo--no Tergat to pull him along. The top marathoners beat that mark now, but primarily on the basis of better short track speed. Jones had only 13:20 capability whereas the best marathoners now have ~13' 5k speed.

The distance records have tumbled not because volumes are any higher--they arent. the major difference these days is quality. If a runner has the basic speed for 13 5k, mega mileage is an option only
not mandatory at all. Speed is inescapable.
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:51 pm

The distance records have tumbled not
>because volumes are any higher--they arent. the
>major difference these days is quality. If a
>runner has the basic speed for 13 5k, mega
>mileage is an option only
not mandatory at
>all. Speed is inescapable.

I agree. Overemphasis in volume is a very big part of the problem. This mind-set led to Webb's woes a couple of years ago from which he has yet to recover. There is very little need for a miler to run beyond 70m/wk - even a fully mature miler would be maxing at 80m. Base training should include a more diverse program than advised 30 years ago by Lydiard. Circuit training combining plyos, form drills and wt. training should be implemented during the base phase. Speed work should never fully be negelected - even during base (this does not mean high intensity intervals.

I completely agree that too many miles and marathon training will lead to slower legs. While this type of training can work more likley it will lead to injury, burnout, or simply plateaus in performance.

Base work is necessary but the type of base work a miler is doing differs from that of a marathoner. The natural maturation and years of consistent 40-70 mile weeks eventually are absorbed. Excessive miles, more often than not, won't allow an athlete to become mature and still compete.
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:18 pm

>Yes, I do.
The France are better distance
>runners.
I am merely stating a fact. To make a
>factual statement you don't even need to know
>much about the sport.

I really don't care what
>you think. Does anyone really take these message
>boards that seriously?>

Point is the fact that France has a better distance running crew just dawned on you.
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:20 pm

>
Base work is necessary but the
>type of base work a miler is doing differs from
>that of a marathoner. The natural maturation and
>years of consistent 40-70 mile weeks eventually
>are absorbed. Excessive miles, more often than
>not, won't allow an athlete to become mature and
>still compete.
>

Base on what I've seen of El G's training he's putting in something around 90mpw in base training but it's very fast.
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:57 pm

Here is what US miling great Jim Spivey said about US distance running today. Some good observation from a former 3:49 mile runner. Like others on this forum he points out US distance running was indeed better 20 years ago.

Interview question:
"U.S. distance running has been pretty bad for the last decade or so, what do you contribute this to?"


Jim Spivey: The loss of older foreign athletes competing in college is a major part. Yes, it does take scholarships away from American athletes. But why should a 5000 meters be won in 13:55? I can remember in 1980, watching Sulimen Nyambui of UTEP running 13:20's to win, and thinking, I have to get better. I would much rather have a higher goal to achieve, than to say I was a NCAA champion running 14:00. Others included Henry Rono (world record holder in the steeplechase, 8:05); Sydnee Maree of South Africa and now a USA citizen (current American record holder at 1500 meters, 3:29.77); and others. Some were as many as 8-10 years older than me. I may not have liked it, but it made me a better athlete. I believe that if the state cross country meet at Detweiller is won in 14:50, the next year's returning athletes think, "Hey, if I can run 15:05, I have a chance to place high." When Marius Bakken came in for the one year, he put a resurgence in Illinois distance running. He ran 14:30 early in the season, and everyone though, OK, this is what I have to do. You saw the Torres brothers, Don Sage, and then Mr. Pifer come from Marius' racing.
In 1994, I was ranked #2 for the USA in the 1500 meters at 3:36, and only two athletes had run under 13:40 for 5000 meters (Bob Kennedy and I). We had no depth. Compare this to 1983, when I ran 3:50.59 (3:34) for the mile at age 23 in Oslo to finish second, but was ranked the fifth fastest American. Scott, Maree, Byers, and Harbor had run faster. I knew that to be number one, I had to beat other 3:50 milers.


Well, at one time the US had a quite a few 3:50 milers. In the early 80's the US was a powerhouse in the mile. Only Great Britain was better in this event. Can you imagine Lunn running with Scott, Spivey, Maree, Byers, and Harbor. Tim Hacker is another 3:50 miler you could add to this list from the 80's.
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:11 pm

Base on what I've seen
>of El G's training he's putting in something
>around 90mpw in base training but it's very fast.
>

Dutra-

Where have you seen 90m? I haven't seen anything like that. 90k sounds closer (though a bit low). Unless he increased to perpare for 5k. But, I haven't read anything indicating this and I doubt a mileage bump would have been necessary for him.

Please let me know where you got this information.
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:46 pm

>
Base on what I've seen
>of El G's training
>he's putting in something
>around 90mpw in base
>training but it's very
>fast.
>

Dutra-

Where have you seen 90m? I
>haven't seen anything like that. 90k sounds
>closer (though a bit low). Unless he increased to
>perpare for 5k. But, I haven't read anything
>indicating this and I doubt a mileage bump would
>have been necessary for him.

Please let me
>know where you got this information.>

Go to the training section of marius' site at:

http://www.mariusbakken.com/

with warmup and warmdown plus jogging between the faster sections he's got to be at 90mpw.
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:32 pm

Go to the training section of
>marius' site
>at:

http://www.mariusbakken.com/

with
>warmup and warmdown plus jogging between the
>faster sections he's got to be at 90mpw.

Dutra-

Thanks for the website. Its a good one.

I've seen training outline before. Our addition differs. I still come up with about 70m. We may be differing on the amount of warm up distance. However, during base phase only the power workouts would require a warmup and these are relatively infrequent to make much of a difference in total mileage.
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 01, 2003 7:02 am

Run faster.
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 01, 2003 7:31 am

eliminate the drug cheaters and america has no problem.
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:03 am

Except in the sprints and throws
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Re: Suggestions for improving distance running in the USA

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:18 am

There is no need for drugs in the bionic revolution coming in the next 20 years.
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