Decathlon coming down to wire


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Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:16 am

American decathlete, Tom Pappas is narrowing in on a possible gold medal. Pappas is holding a sizeable lead on Czech, WR holder, Roman Sebrle with 1 event left for the Czech, and two for the Amaerican. You can bet it will come down to the 1500m. Sebrle has just finished the "A" section of the javelin, throwing 69.79m. Pappas is in the "B" section and is preparing to throw as I write this. Here is where it gets interesting. Pappas will need a 120-180 pt lead heading into the 1500m (20-30 seconds) to hold the lead over Sebrle, as Sebrle is much faster. What this means is that Pappas neads to throw approx. 65.81m (215'11") to cover the spread. A good throw for Pappas, but something he's done many times.
Prediction: Pappas will cover the spread in the jav and Sebrle will break my heart and run a terrific 1500m.
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:42 am

How about Dmitry though. He won't win this year but man has he come up big. I am definitely impresssed.
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:55 am

Once Karpov learns how to vault and throw the jav he'll be tought to beat (I think he's only 22). Did anyone notice he threw the discuss and jav almost identical distances? His Day 1 total yesterday of 4599 was the tied for #10 of all time, by the way.

Also, Sebrle is leading Pappas through 2 events of the World Combined Event Challenge by a slim margin, 17413 to 17369. So, it's possible that Pappas holds on to win today, but doesn't overtake Sebrle for the $30,000 1st place prize. I don't know if either plans to compete in September at Talence. Those 2 have definitely separated themselves from the pack.

Any word on Macey or Yurkov? Both resting for the Olympic year?
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:40 am

>What this means is that Pappas neads to throw
>approx. 65.81m (215'11") to cover the spread.
>A good throw for Pappas, but something he's
>s done many times.

65.90 on his first throw - let's hope even more is to come!
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:06 am

Is 179 points enough??? What does that translate to in the 1500???

Should be very close!
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:10 am

Well, his first throw was his best. Two other good efforts. The 1500 will be interesting. Pappas needs to finish within about 26 seconds of Sebrle to win. >Should< be able to do that, but Sebrle is good enough at 1500 to put the pressure on.

Note that Eurosport - though far far superior to anything this side of the Atlantic - did not even mention the decathlon javelin while it was going on.
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:13 am

>Is 179 points enough??? What does that translate
>to in the 1500???

Sebrle ran a 4:21 en route to his WR of 9026. His next best time is 4:28 twice. If he can run a 4:21, Pappas would need right around 4:48 (which he just did at US Championships). I think he's got more than 4:48 in him, based on his 400 yesterday it appears he's in great shape. Plus, this time it really counts.
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:20 am

>>What this means is that Pappas neads to
>throw
>approx. 65.81m (215'11") to cover the
>spread.
>A good throw for Pappas, but something
>he's
>s done many times.

According to this site:

http://www.decathlon2000.ee/eng/athletes.php?id=25

Pappas has a decathlon PR of 64.42 in the javelin (from 1999). The 66.56 he threw in Sarasota was at a camp where he didn't complete the decathlon. Are you referring to open competitions in college?

Either way, he came up huge with a 65.90 when it mattered. This is shaping up to be a Day 2 PR for him.
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby trackstar » Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:22 am

Pappas is having a great meet, but based on his 1500 PR (4:45), it looks like an American record is out of reach. He would need to run 4:22.65.

I'm not very experienced at reading decathlon tables, but it looks to me like he needs to stay within 25 seconds of Sebrle to win.
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:06 am

Yes, I was referring to Pappas Non-deca Jav throws.

He went big. It's going to be a tough 1500m. Sebrle has proven he's a great competitor down the stretch, but Pappas is capable of holding him off. I guess we'll see what Pappas is made of. Should be fun to watch.
Go Tom!
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:32 am

Barring a total physical collaps, it's in the bag. 179 pts is approx 30 seconds at that level (mid 4 minute pace)
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby abinferno » Wed Aug 27, 2003 12:19 pm

I can't believe Tom pulled it out. He even ran a semi-respectable 1500. I was pulling for Tom all the way, but I picked Sebrle in the beginning.
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby BillVol » Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:05 pm

Great job, Tom Pappas!!!!! Tom lives in Knoxville and trains on Tom Black Track at the U. of Tennessee under coach Bill Webb. Tennessee and the USA are proud of you, Tom!
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Randy Treadway » Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:10 pm

Wow, seven names dropped in a single sentence! A NEW WORLD RECORD!!!
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Randy Treadway » Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:12 pm

Pappas is THE MAN for 2003.

Work on that 1500, and we're talkin' WR territory.
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:20 pm

Randy (and others):

I don't know how much you know about the decathlon, but the time it takes to significantly improve the 1500m score (about 17 seconds for a 100 pt improvement) can be far better spent on other events. I know. I've trained and competed in the decathlon a number of years back. Not much good at it, but I know a bit about the training aspect.

Take a look at most decathletes careers. You'll find they set their 1500m PR's early on in their career. Far more points are gained through improvements in the explosive events...there are 9 of them compared to the one requiring some aerobic conditioning.

Kurt
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:37 pm

Kurt -

Interested since you competed and trained for the decathlon - what event(s) do most decathletes consider the easiest to master and which are the most difficult. I would guess the 110H and the PV are difficult, but that's coming from a distance guy w/no coordinaton.
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Randy Treadway » Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:04 pm

That's obviously true and why if there's a weakest event for decathletes it's often the 1500.

However, when you're in the upper reaches of elitedom, like Pappas now, and you feel you're no longer gonna make any more incredible gains in the throws, why not go back and take a look at that event you've been neglecting all these years?
It might be the last missing puzzle piece to get you over the national- and world-record history books threshold.
(that is, IF there's a way it can be done without neglecting those strength events- no easy feat)
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby abinferno » Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:24 pm

I'm a decathlete right now, and I can tell you the events I dislike, or are the most difficult. Discus is the one I loathe the most, and my worst event. The 110h are also difficult because I never hurdled in high school. For most decathletes, the hardest technical events are probably the hurdles, pole vault and discus.
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:47 pm

Not the high jump? As an outsider looking in, it seems like the high jump, along with the pole vault, would be the most difficult to master. If I were to compete in the decathalon now (mind you, I am in absolutely no shape to do so), I'm pretty confident I would score 0's in both.

Any insite would be appreciated!
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:30 pm

pappas kicked butt out there !
i thought that sebrle would come back in day two, but when he tossed the jav over 65 he was on his was. i think he can get better. dwight is right, he does not blow out anybody like o brien or huffins did in the sprints and jumps, but he is solid. i think he can improve on the long jump, hurdles and disc as well as jump 7 ft consistently in the high jump and 17 ft in the pole vault.
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Re: Decathlon coming down to wire

Postby Guest » Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:24 am

As far as "difficulty" is concerned with regard to learning events, it all depends on your background and talents. The best decathletes come from the sprinter/jumper backgrounds that have some basic coordination. I was a thrower/jumper type, but very, very slowwwwww :) I was very comfortable with the throws, vault, and jumps, but because of my basic severe lack of speed and physical height (I'm 5-7), I was never...NEVER...going to be able to hurdle or sprint very well. If I had the opportunity to scout for potential decathletes, I'd definitely recruit out of the sprinter/jumper types who had a dabbling of experience with other events in high school. I know how to teach others how to throw, vault, and jump. That's just a matter of repetition with the right drills for a given athelte. Easy stuff. The critical point is that athlete ALREADY has the talent to sprint AND jump. The rest is academic (need a bit of desire thrown in there, too.)

Also, another point about the decathlon. The scoring tables do not give you the same amount of point increase for a given performance increase throughout the range within an event. For example, the 100m will give u a 44 pt increase in going from 11.20 to 11.00 seconds. Going from 12.20 to 12.00 seconds, however, only gives you a 39 pt increase. In other words, it is a progressive increase. It PAYS to focus on increasing your speed. Some of the events are regressive, however, meaning that it pays less dividends to make further gains. A decathlete has to study the tables well and make the best decision for his case in order to determine what events to focus best on for himself.

As far as the 1500m is concerned, the tables are progressive meaning that you get more points for a given time drop in performance. However, you have to run a 4:53 1500m (5:20 mile) just to score 600 POINTS! It takes a 4:21 1500m to score 800 points! I can tell you that in all my years of watching and competing, not many guys in the decathlon will ever score 800 points in the 1500m. Not going to happen unless there is a serious degradation in performance in other events.

I hope this gives some here an idea of the decathlon and some things to consider.

Kurt
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Terek

Postby Guest » Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:42 am

It's also worth noting that Terek put up 7503 in 9 events. With a 15.26 hurdles (his PR) that's another 818 points (8321). Even a 15.76 is good for 760 points, which would've given him 8263, close to his PR earlier this year, and 4th place in Paris.

Any word on Terek's DQ? Usatf.org says that the decision was appealed, but denied. I've never heard of this type of DQ before.
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Re: Terek

Postby bhall » Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:25 am

It isn't an uncommon DQ. When Dan Lilot and I were watching the race we both thought the infraction could *easily* be called on him. It wasn't one or two hurdles, it was all of them that he pushed over with his foot instead of hurdled.
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Re: Terek

Postby Guest » Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:17 am

I haven't seen the race yet, but you'd have to be a GOOD hurdler to be able make knocking them over a part of your game plan. Even I at 5-7 and extremely slow at 18.6 for the hurdles (42") would never have contemplated attempting to knock them down as part of my "technique". I'm sorry, but I think the French officials gave Paul alot more credit than he deserved!

Kurt
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Re: Terek

Postby Guest » Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:28 am

If that was his game plan you can probably credit Roger Kingdom.

I doubt many people would have considered it until watching Roger Kingdom run in the 110's in the 90's and hitting many (some times most or all)hurdles and it not slowing him down in the least.

Similar to Kingdom many decatholetes are big, strong guys, so the strategy is a plausable one if you can do it. Thus the rule.

I am NOT saying that this was Terek's or Kingdom's strategy but I'm sure thats why they have the rule.
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Re: Terek

Postby Randy Treadway » Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:42 am

>I am NOT saying that this was Terek's or
>Kingdom's strategy but I'm sure thats why they
>have the rule.

I fail to see the logic behind Kingdom cutting it so close that if he hit plenty of hurdles it didn't make any difference because he's "big", and the need for a Rule.

It would seem that knocking down hurdles- intentional or otherwise- does nothing to create an "advantage" for yourself. Unfair advantage can't be the logic.

What about safety? If somebody intentionally tries to knock down as many hurdles as possible, are the risks increased of 'flying hurdles' interfering with runners in adjacent lanes?
Maybe that's the logic.

Other ideas?
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Re: Terek

Postby Guest » Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:21 am

I dont' know if Ultrarunner has ever tried hurdling in a RACE but it ain't the samething as doing drill or just "trying it out". When you're running full speed at a flight of hurdles, the only thing on your mind is "clear the hurdle with as little interference as possible and get back to running fast!"

Skimming the hurdles with underside of the thigh on the lead leg is acceptable to most hurdlers. Actually putting your heel into IS NOT! Chance of disaster IS GREAT! Besides, at the speeds these boys are moving, no way to accurately place your lead heel on the toeboard without disaster at those speeds.

The rule was developed early in the 1900's. It is no longer applicable at the world, national, or collegiate levels. It should've been done away with along time ago. But we all know how beauracracies operate :)

Kurt
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Re: Terek

Postby Guest » Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:43 am

So in this instance did Terek complete the 110H, and was then disqualified? If so, what was his time?
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Re: Terek

Postby Guest » Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:18 am

I may be wrong as my only hurdling experience comes the steeplechase and you definately never want to "hit" or skim one of those hurdles.

I guess what I'm asking is that if you are 6'2' and 185 lbs of muscle and have a full head of steam you would hit and clear the 100H hurdles fairly quickly, is there any advantage to be gained by not jumping/hurdling as high and actually hitting the hurdle with you foot. You would not be in the air as long and thus supposedly could be faster. I don't understand why this would be substainly harder than trying to clear the hurdle by 2 or 3 inches.

Sure more things can go wrong but generally most of the trouble should be behind and/or beside you from the flying hurdles.

Again, I am no expert but am interested, please educate me if I am wrong. Most hurdlers I was friends with were the 400H guys.

Also could the rule have been made to discourage the hitting of hurdles because of the danager it could cause to the runners in the lane's next to you. (Although after Kingdom hit them there usually wasn't much left of them to get in anyone's way - ha, ha).
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Re: Terek

Postby abinferno » Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:23 pm

The general idea is not to hit the hurdles with any signficant force. Even a nudge has to slow you a tiny amount just based on physics. Watch someone like Collin Jackson, or Allen Johnson. Those guys are great technicians over the hurdles. For the most part, none of the hurdlers purposefully tries to catch the hurdles with their heel, it is simply unavoidable many times with that much speed. I know for a fact they don't practice attempting to hit the hurdle instead of clear it.
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Re: Terek

Postby Guest » Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:43 pm

Paul's time was 15.80, which would have put him in fourth place. And the call was he " intentionally knocked over a hurdle. If, you know the intent of the rule is so you don't gain an advantage....15.8 and dead last ??? Where is the unfair advantage....There is no rule about knocking them over as any hurdler will tell you it is a disadvantage. Paul will overcome this and hopes to compete in Talence.
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Re: Terek

Postby tandfman » Wed Sep 03, 2003 5:37 pm

It's definitely a safety thing. And there HAVE been hurdlers whose technique involved flattening the hurdle deliberately. Handsome Wearing comes to mind immediately. (Yes, that was the guy's name--ran for Villanova.)

Although the rule isn't often enforced, I don't think it's likely to be removed any time soon.
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Re: Terek

Postby gh » Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:43 pm

Although there were a few too many decisions that went against the Americans, this may not have been one of them. T&FN staffers watching replays of the race came to the same conclusion right away. (I didn't see the race, so can't comment.)

Official time was 15.85; with that he would have scored a near-PR 8253 and been 4th. It's also easy to posit that with still being in the running he would have done even better than he did in the last 4 events.
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Re: Terek

Postby RussJD » Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:24 am

Any rule that requires mind reading is probably a good one to get rid of.
But the bigger question is--how can this man be helped--as a hurdler? If anyone has seen him, what does he do wrong and how can it be improved? Because it's really the only thing between him and medal territory.
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Re: Terek

Postby Guest » Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:36 am

Now, if the USATF is truly a legitimate athletic agency it should step in here and help Terek find a potential solution (hurdle coaching, meditation, whatever).

Otherwise, it seems the only function of the USATF is to deny drug charges and provide ugly uniforms.
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Re: Terek

Postby bhall » Thu Sep 04, 2003 3:47 am

No mind reading was required on this DQ.
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Re: Terek

Postby ndamix » Thu Sep 04, 2003 5:13 am

It's a shame that this young man was DQ'd due to the hurdling violation. However, if the umpires noticed he was knocking down all the hurdles without trying to completing clear them, then they were right for reporting the infraction. After the infraction was reported, it was up to the running referee to rule and the jury of appeals to act if a protest was filed.

Having served as an umpire, this type of violation is more apparent at high school and youth level competitions as opposed to elite level competitions like the Worlds.
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Re: Terek

Postby tandfman » Thu Sep 04, 2003 5:20 am

True, but note that while Terek is an elite level decathlete, he is not an elite level hurdler by any means.
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Re: Terek

Postby RussJD » Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:57 am

I wonder when was the last time this violation was called? I don't remember a previous instance but I only go back to 1960 or so as far as following track is concerned.
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