Ben Johnson is the best Sprinter the world has ever seen


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Re: Paradigm shift

Postby Guest » Tue Aug 12, 2003 10:26 am

It was a very simple question: "Other than his 9.83 and 9.79, did Ben Johnson ever run any other fast times?" You are terribly mistaken to believe that I am dismissign these times as being unimportant. On the contrary, these times brought the 100m to a new level -- that an athlete could run sub 9.90 or below.

However, these two times alone do not necessarily qualify Johnson as the greatest sprinter ever. True, the world will never know what Johnson might have done if he had never cheated (or, was never caught cheating). That fact alone make it nearly impossible to judge is worthiness of such a title.

Besides, the ever changing technology (track surface, shoes, training methods, supplements - both legal and illegal, etc) makes it difficult to use times to compare runners of different eras. The fact that there were so few sub-10 100m between 1968 and the early 80's suggests that Smith's 9.93, even at altitude, marked a change in the paradigm.

On another note, the fact that Johnson had only a few "truly remarkable" times along with the other "still incredibly fast at the time" times leads to think of Bob Beamon and the fact his wr leap was nearly 2ft farther than his 2nd best. Does his 29'2'' leap mean he is one of the best long jumpers ever? Or, a long jumper who was at the rioght place at the right time?


>a previous poster stated, how can you be so quick
>to dismiss these times? I'm not sure if you were
>old enough to remember (not an insult, just
>curious...), but at the time those marks changed
>the paradigm. Yes, Calvin Smith had run 9.93 at
>the lofty altitude of Colorado Springs, but Ben's
>9.83 and 9.79 at sea level were truly landmark
>performances.
Guest
 

Re: Who the?

Postby The Flash » Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:35 am

>Who wrote that last comment about Bob Hayes, his
>daughter or something? Whatever, if you want to
>call him the best sprinter ever, you can do that
>Ms. Hayes, but lets get serious for a second.
>Maurice does have the 60m world record, but I
>saw that race with my own eyes, and he caught a
>flyer, plain and simple. If you average Bens
>60m times throughout 86-88, there is no
>comparison with any other sprinter ever. You
>have a better argument in trying to say that
>somebody was better than him in the 100m, let
>alone the 60m. Ben ran 9.79 with no comp, and
>6.41 with no comp. He was WAY ahead of his
>time, and for whoever said that Carl Lewis would
>have ran better if he was on drugs, HE WAS ON
>DRUGS IDIOT! We've already covered that point.
>If you're going to add to my board, make sure
>e you read messages written before you.

You speak as though you're teaching a class and everything you say is undeniably proven fact. Which it is not. You talked (at length) about the "fact" that "he was on drugs", but the "fact" is that you ASSUME that they were. In the interest of dialogue and conversation (since you posted here, that has to be your interest, otherwise, why are you here?), let those who would ASSUME they are clean, do so.
It is not your "board" to enforce, and it is you that comes off the IDIOT with how you present yourself and your (flimsy) argument--whatever it is, I forget.
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Re: Who the?

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:59 am

Except no teacher would ever address his class like that.
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Re: Who the?

Postby JRM » Wed Aug 13, 2003 12:06 pm

"Besides, the ever changing technology (track surface, shoes, training methods, supplements - both legal and illegal, etc) makes it difficult to use times to compare runners of different eras."

Actually, it makes it very easy to compare times between eras -- at least from the point of view of their relative "magnitude". Mid- to late-80s: very few sub-10s, and Ben is the exclusive redsident of the sub-9.95 region. Second place to his 9.83 was 9.93, and 9.79 was 9.92. The track surfaces were generally much softer than those of the late 90s. Harder surfaces yield greater energy return and make it easier to run faster. Greene's 9.79 was run on a newly resurfaced, very hard track in Athens. Training methods only improve; nutrition and supplements become more effective.

In short: a 9.79 in 1988 is a greater feat than a 9.79 in 1999.
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Re: Who the?

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 13, 2003 2:00 pm

"The track surfaces were generally much
softer than those of the late 90s. Harder
surfaces yield greater energy return and make it
easier to run faster. Greene's 9.79 was run on a
newly resurfaced, very hard track in Athens.
Training methods only improve; nutrition and
supplements become more effective. In short:
a 9.79 in 1988 is a greater feat than a 9.79 in
1999."

I'll agree up to a point... When you compare Johnson's 9.79 in 1988 and compare it to the times that followed (1989-2003), it probably is a greater feat than a 9.79 today. And yes, this is because track, training, and nutrition has improved should yield faster times. However, this logic only applies to the time period from 1988-2003. How do you compare the 9.79 in 1988 to a 9.95 in 1968, when conditions were inferior to those in 1988 and beyond? [I realize that the 9.95 was at altitude, but it is irrelavent to my point -- substitute any time you want]. Logic that works well going in one direction does not necessarily apply when going the other direction.

Unless someone can come up with a mathematical model that allows times run in unequal environments to be compared equally, I don't see how the question of "who is the best sprinter the world has ever seen" can ever be definitely answered.
Guest
 

Re: Ben Johnson is the best Sprinter the world has ever seen

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:55 pm

LIKE EVERY OTHER SPRINTER IN THE WORLD YOU IDIOT NAME ANY SPRINTER IN ANY ERA THAT RUNS UNDER 9.90 CONSTANTLY AND I WILL SHAKE YOUR HAND YOU GOOSE.
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Re: Paradigm shift

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:03 pm

THE SAD CASE IS THAT 2 RUNNERS HAVE BROKEN 10 SECONDS THIS YEAR AND 1 IS A AUSSIE EVERY EUROPEAN RACE HAS BEEN OVER 10 SECONDS THE SPRINTING IS GOING BACKWARDS NOT FORWARDS IT IS IN A VERY SORRY STATE AT THE MOMENT.
Guest
 

Re: Paradigm shift

Postby Guest » Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:21 am

Pez,
Why are so upset that you have to shout and call people names?

more decaf, bro
Guest
 

Look Tafnut

Postby Guest » Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:19 am

Very good point PEZ, sprinting does seem to be going backwards this year, and I believe that it has a lot to do with the fact that it has become very difficult to use performance enhancing drugs because of how much it is being monitored now. People are all of a sudden running slower now. Hmmmmm, I wonder why? I referred to BEN as the best sprinter because of the fact that he had run times of today way back in 1986-1988 (good point JRM), and may have been on something, but the plummit in results lately because of the monitoring of banned substances in track today is pretty good evidence that sprinters of today have been staying away from taking substances this year.
TAFNUT, I need you to stop talking directly to me. Like most people on this board, I have no idea why I would give you my address, and I have no idea why you gave me yours. I called you an idiot because of that, and I am probably not the only person on this board who thinks that. If you think that has something to do with insecurity in myself, whatever. Just stop talking directly to me, and stay on the topic. I really don't care who you are or where you live.
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Re: Look Tafnut

Postby tafnut » Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:29 am

Done. And you may stop disparaging ANYONE as well.
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Re: Ben Johnson is the best Sprinter the world has ever seen

Postby Guest » Thu Aug 14, 2003 8:11 am

Is there supposed to be a point being made here?

>LIKE EVERY OTHER SPRINTER IN THE WORLD YOU IDIOT
>NAME ANY SPRINTER IN ANY ERA THAT RUNS UNDER 9.90
>CONSTANTLY AND I WILL SHAKE YOUR HAND YOU GOOSE.
Guest
 

Re: Ben Johnson is the best Sprinter the world has ever seen

Postby Guest » Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:27 am

OK children, that's enough now. There's no more time for this, you have Conflict Resolution in 5 minutes so get your things together and get moving.
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