I would haved liked to see (in T&FN)...


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Re: I would haved liked to see (in T&FN)...

Postby Guest » Mon Jul 14, 2003 10:40 am

>>African stars just get better? Then why do
>we
>have to learn a whole new set of names every
>two
>years? The kips, koechs, ronos, gats,
>etc.
>confuse me mightily. They have a
>seemingly
>inexhaustable supply of talent, but
>it is most
>certainly NOT the same every year.
>Their
>monstrous mileages do take their toll and
>people
>disappear very often. Even the mighty
>Geb is
>human and has problems. What does that
>tell you?
>Everybody has ups and downs. AW had
>up, then a
>down, I see an up in his
>future.

T&F Nut-

The is off the topic
>thread but you make a great point. Many say the
>Kenyan training programs are so remarkable -
>that's not as much the case as 1.) so many are
>built to run 2.) so many are running. They are
>all like shooting stars - a few seasons and done
>replaced by another with fresh legs who will be
>good for another couple seasons. Its all about
>numbers. They have thousands with potential all
>trying to make it to the top.

We don't have
>as many "naturals" here in the states (small
>light frame built to run), and we don't have as
>many trying to run (many other sports to compete
>with). When we do get talent we should nurture
>the talent rather than trying to be like the
>Kenyan's and exploit the talent until the next
>one comes along (we don't always have a "next
>one".

The Kenyans (and many of the Ethiopians) are also older than they admit. They have hit their peak, and slow down due to age. Even Geb is supposedly a few years older than admitted.

That said, the E. Africans do have a larger number of individuals with the "make-up" to be distance stars. Couple that with small participation in distance running in the US and Europe, and you have domination. The North Africans do well, but maybe the US and many European countries would do as well (think of the Brits in the late 70's/early 80's) if the interest were there. But it isn't. Too many sports/activities competing for attention. And running is tough, especially from the 800 on up. Of course, things are cyclical, and things will probably turn again. It's very possible that India and China have scores of guys with the ability, but there's little interest, and other sports are in the forefront for the men in those hugely populated countries.

What would I like to see in T&FN? That is the topic of this thread ... Maybe more opinion pieces, or in depth articles on "hot" stories to get the juices flowing. No, this doesn't mean derogatory, but it can mean getting into controversial areas that the mag typically ignores. Who knows, it could have a ripple effect and help straighten many things out, maybe?
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Re: I would haved liked to see (in T&FN)...

Postby 197hjsteve » Mon Jul 14, 2003 11:18 am

oh, Kurt, you're not such a bad guy after all.

There is a very human tendency for ALL of us to get into Rants with flying fingers on E Mail keyboards. I do it in my business E mails sometime, where I would have been much more diplomatic in a traditional letter or in a telephone call. So don't go away mad. After all, we are all just good 'ole track fans, aren't we ?!
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Re: I would haved liked to see (in T&FN)...

Postby Guest » Mon Jul 14, 2003 3:44 pm

>Those who have bought
>into the eTN (electronic results) concept I think
>will tell you that T&FN has never given you more
>bang for your buck. The big question is, are
>there enough people left willing to pay (at just
>about any price, no matter how small) for track
>stuff when they can indeed get so much of it
>free?

Here are a few questions that I truly do not know the answers to, although I'm sure others here do.

1) Do other niche sports magazines go into as much detail about past results as T&FN does? Broad-interest sports magazines (like SI, ESPN, and The Sporting News) simply do not. In other words, is it the norm do devote so much space to things your readers already know fairly well (and to hype things that have already happened as "coming in our next issue")?

2) I sense that while T&FN actually publishes the magazine, the readership expresses a great deal of "ownership" -- that is, we think it's just as much "our" magazine as "yours". Does the staff see themselves as providing a public service as advocates of the sport, or capitalists trying to keep a business afloat, or both?
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Re: I would haved liked to see (in T&FN)...

Postby Guest » Mon Jul 14, 2003 4:04 pm

Well this conversation has certainly evolved considerably
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Re: I would haved liked to see (in T&FN)...

Postby polevaultpower » Mon Jul 14, 2003 4:04 pm

1) Do other niche sports
>magazines go into as much detail about past
>results as T&FN does? Broad-interest sports
>magazines (like SI, ESPN, and The Sporting News)
>simply do not. In other words, is it the norm do
>devote so much space to things your readers
>already know fairly well (and to hype things that
>have already happened as "coming in our next
>issue")?

I have subscribed to International Gymnast for the past several years. They seem to spend about the same amount of time focusing on the past as T&F News, and they have the same problem of hyping meets that have already happened. I don't see the first part of that as a problem, and there is not much you can do about the latter (except get eT&FN or whatever it is called).
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Re: I would haved liked to see (in T&FN)...

Postby Guest » Mon Jul 14, 2003 4:35 pm

1) Do other niche sports
>magazines go into as much detail about past
>results as T&FN does? Broad-interest sports
>magazines (like SI, ESPN, and The Sporting News)
>simply do not. In other words, is it the norm do
>devote so much space to things your readers
>already know fairly well (and to hype things that
>have already happened as "coming in our next
>issue")?>>

The "broad-interest" magazines you cite have a huge difference over T&FN: frequency. SI comes out weekly, the other two every two weeks. So in doing the same kind of comprehensive coverage that a monthly does their stuff is never more than a quarter or half as old.
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Re: I would haved liked to see (in T&FN)...

Postby tafnut » Mon Jul 14, 2003 5:20 pm

T&FN is at a crossroads. When it started, it really was about news, because there were very few other places you could get the in-depth results coverage or commentary that it provided. As recently as 1995 it was still primarily in that business, but the direction had to move more towards commentary. Now that we're fully on-line with results, T&FN only serves a 'results' purpose as an archive of what we've already read on-line. T&FN may see eTN as a marketing tool, but in actuality that's where they are going to have to go to remain viable in the E-news Age. The paper version will exist for 20 more years, but move much more towards the 'upcoming attractions' reports, together with the in-depth athlete profiles. RW on-line is ahead of the curve with their daily news. I hope gh and co. see the writing on the wall and invest some time and energy (probably won't take a lot of $$$) to seek how to become a subscribable web source of info as well. If they can do what RW does for distance runners (some say joggers), their numbers will start going up again. Unfortunately, this is easier said than done. What do we want and what will we pay for it? Is there a survey of 'readership' forthcoming? I'm for whatever helps them survive and thrive.
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Re: I would haved liked to see (in T&FN)...

Postby Guest » Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:23 pm

Got my July issue when I arrived home tonight and thought I'd do an unrequested reader survey. I traditionally read it the day I receive it and used to spend between 60-90 minutes doing so. Tonight took 27 minutes and I have really developed an attitude of "lets get through it as fast as possible" attitude. Why would I read every word about the NCAA's when I knew what happened weeks ago? Ditto to "Track Shorts" (which I normally enjoy) because it was also old news. I only fully read the athlete bio's in the first 38 pages, just scanned the rest. Only other interest was the ads (use me as a testimonial if you like!). I've been thinking about not renewing my subscription for a few years now but I do simply to support T&F in general, despite other posts, $40 is nothing these days.

I liked the pictures of Jaworski, Wilson et al, but I'm not 8 years old, I'd like to be able to read articles on analysis, bio's, history etc. Right now T&FN is an obsolete resource for me and I'm a 30 year hard-core fan.

Here's a quiz...there's a typo in there. Who else spotted it?
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Re: I would haved liked to see (in T&FN)...

Postby Guest » Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:38 pm

Nice post--good analysis...didn't notice a typo but you used attitude twice in that one sentence when once would do.
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Re: q for blacklily

Postby blacklily » Mon Jul 14, 2003 8:17 pm

>My question for blacklily- have you tried Ben's
>suggestion and signed up for eTN?

If not,
>why?

If not, you're missing out! I love it.
>I print it out and read it while I ride my
>stationary bike and see all the stats I missed
>browsing the net over the last week.

I haven't signed up for eTN, because I figured that it would be results that I already know. However, I'll sign up & give it a try.
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Re: I would haved liked to see (in T&FN)...

Postby Guest » Mon Jul 14, 2003 9:16 pm

>Nice post--good analysis...didn't notice a typo
>but you used attitude twice in that one sentence
>when once would do.

My apologies...syntax is usually important to me but I was watching the Tour on TiVo at the time. I'll be more careful next time...so have you spotted the typo yet?
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Re: I would haved liked to see (in T&FN)...

Postby richardh » Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:29 am

It depends how you use the magazine. For me its very helpful to have the results shown. I use the magazine for reference, not just currently, but over a period of time. Having all the magazines (photocopies for some of the earlier years) over its 55 year life means that I can refer easily to any major event or meeting of the second half of the 20th century. Now I suspect that this is highly unusual for a T&FN reader, but I'll always make room for T&FN on my bookshelves (who needs Sartre or Shakespeare)
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Re: I would haved liked to see (in T&FN)...

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 15, 2003 4:00 am

I think richardh expresses my views as well. I'm a fan of the sport, but also enjoy the history as well. The magazine allows for written documentation of the sport, and I can't count the times I have pulled out an old issue to enjoy. The internet is great, but nothing can replace the print and pictures of the magazine.
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Re: I would haved liked to see (in T&FN)...

Postby 197hjsteve » Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:49 am

you should have typed "let's" instead of "lets."
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Re: I would haved liked to see (in T&FN)...

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:50 am

Richardh wrote:
>I'll always make room for T&FN on my bookshelves (who needs Sartre or Shakespeare)<

Richard, if you're throwing out Shakespeare to make room for T&FN, what you need is an additional bookcase.
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Re: I would haved liked to see (in T&FN)...

Postby 197hjsteve » Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:52 am

richardh, I have them all too ! And like you and El Supremo, they make a great resource tool with a fair measure of infrequency, plus sometimes it's just fun to pull out a buch from a random year and l=rread them.... did that last night with 1988.
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